Why there will never be a tennis GOAT
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TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
I’d say Borg. Retired early but mastered clay and grass.
Most difficult thing.
Borg, the overall goat.
Most difficult thing.
Borg, the overall goat.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Djoko has decided to leave freelance mode. And that spells danger for you.
Federev
Legend
No man. Deal with merits of the argument. Don't go after the person.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
Still ahead of your man on the totem pole and the tennis to determine the end order is yet to be played.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic fans had their 5 days of fairytale land. Now back to reality.
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Also for years we heard the surfaces are too slow that's why nadal keeps smacking fed.
Now it's surfaces are what they are when it suits them?
Hilarious
aman92
Legend
Because it will be a miracle if Nadal passes Federer despite only 1 slam on his favorite surface
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
We've had way more than that. And you enjoyed the last few fairytale days yourself, admit it.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ok-fine-novak-djokovic-is-the-goat
I, chief Rafa Nadal fanboy in the US of A, am writing this at 10 a.m. on Sunday, fresh off the pain of watching my favorite athlete in the universe suffer a thorough Australian Open beatdown at the hands of Novak Djokovic. Despite the newness of the defeat, Djoker had the courtesy to put Rafa die-hards like myself out of our misery quickly. It was clear after three games that he was going to win—he looked like the loose, borderline cocky gumby-like prodigy of our nightmares—and by the time he clinched his first break in the second set, all hope was gone. Rafa fought, because that's what he does, but there was no amount of sheer will that could have overcome the talent deficit on display. Which means, unlike the aggravating Wimbledon semifinal loss last year, it's not that hard for me to put this into context.
Here's the context: Rafa was probably playing the best hardcourt tennis of his career these last two weeks, due in large part to a revamped serve that ate up the best players in the world. He didn't lose a set before the final, but that doesn't quite tell the story—other than a listless third set against Thomas Berdych that went to a tiebreak, he didn't come close to losing a set. The young stars of the game turned into ground beef when they stood across the net. Not even Stefanos Tsitsipas, the bright light of the next generation and the guy who faced down Roger Federer, could come close to making a dent. To watch his press conference afterward was to see someone who had been humbled by a merciless tennis deity. Rafa was a wrecking ball.
On the other side of the draw, Djokovic was dominating too, like we all knew he would. But he lost a couple sets along the way, and while nobody in their right minds would ever believe that Rafa would have it easy in the final, it did seem like, at the very very least, we were in for another classic.
Instead, the the second-most dominant player in the tournament, a living legend, was made to look like a junior player on the biggest stage. And it raised a question: Just how superior is Djokovic? If he crushed a scintillating Rafa like that, exactly how many levels has he risen above everyone else? Rafa's new and improved serve wilted in the face of the greatest returner the game has ever seen, with even his best and most precise missiles coming back hard and deep. He just barely won half his serves—half!—while Djokovic won 81% of his. Rafa's famous hyper-spun forehands were transformed by instant alchemy into backhand down-the-line darts, and almost every time they got into an extended rally, Djokovic ran him to death.
It was a virtuoso performance, and even that word, "virtuoso," might not be good enough. So let's make the tough admission and state the unavoidable truth...coming from someone who has previously argued that Rafa should be anointed as the GOAT over the likes of Federer, I confess to for the historical record that there has never been a player as magnificent as Novak Djokovic, ever, in the history of tennis. For all intents and purposes, he is the greatest.
I can't prove this by the numbers quite yet, unless you look at his 28-25 career lifetime record against Nadal or his 25-22 mark against Fed, or the fact that he's the only man ever to win all nine Masters 1000 series tournaments, or that he's better than Federer and just percentage points behind Nadal in career winning percentage, or...okay, you can kinda argue by the numbers. But he doesn't have as many ATP wins as Nadal or Federer, and his major total, now 15, trails both men (17 for Rafa, 20 for Federer). Depending on injuries and the ravages of time, he may exceed them both by next year, or he may never quite get there. I tend to think he'll reach 21 before it's all over, especially in the absence of any young geniuses that have shown the ability to challenge the three kings, but that's speculative.
What I can say, and what I believe is obvious, is that his peak form represents the greatest tennis the world has ever seen, and I find it impossible to credit any argument to the contrary. Australia 2019 was the latest proof, but we've seen it time and again—in terms of pure talent and mental toughness, nobody can touch his best. And on behalf of Rafa zealots everywhere, I curse his very existence.
I, chief Rafa Nadal fanboy in the US of A, am writing this at 10 a.m. on Sunday, fresh off the pain of watching my favorite athlete in the universe suffer a thorough Australian Open beatdown at the hands of Novak Djokovic. Despite the newness of the defeat, Djoker had the courtesy to put Rafa die-hards like myself out of our misery quickly. It was clear after three games that he was going to win—he looked like the loose, borderline cocky gumby-like prodigy of our nightmares—and by the time he clinched his first break in the second set, all hope was gone. Rafa fought, because that's what he does, but there was no amount of sheer will that could have overcome the talent deficit on display. Which means, unlike the aggravating Wimbledon semifinal loss last year, it's not that hard for me to put this into context.
Here's the context: Rafa was probably playing the best hardcourt tennis of his career these last two weeks, due in large part to a revamped serve that ate up the best players in the world. He didn't lose a set before the final, but that doesn't quite tell the story—other than a listless third set against Thomas Berdych that went to a tiebreak, he didn't come close to losing a set. The young stars of the game turned into ground beef when they stood across the net. Not even Stefanos Tsitsipas, the bright light of the next generation and the guy who faced down Roger Federer, could come close to making a dent. To watch his press conference afterward was to see someone who had been humbled by a merciless tennis deity. Rafa was a wrecking ball.
On the other side of the draw, Djokovic was dominating too, like we all knew he would. But he lost a couple sets along the way, and while nobody in their right minds would ever believe that Rafa would have it easy in the final, it did seem like, at the very very least, we were in for another classic.
Instead, the the second-most dominant player in the tournament, a living legend, was made to look like a junior player on the biggest stage. And it raised a question: Just how superior is Djokovic? If he crushed a scintillating Rafa like that, exactly how many levels has he risen above everyone else? Rafa's new and improved serve wilted in the face of the greatest returner the game has ever seen, with even his best and most precise missiles coming back hard and deep. He just barely won half his serves—half!—while Djokovic won 81% of his. Rafa's famous hyper-spun forehands were transformed by instant alchemy into backhand down-the-line darts, and almost every time they got into an extended rally, Djokovic ran him to death.
It was a virtuoso performance, and even that word, "virtuoso," might not be good enough. So let's make the tough admission and state the unavoidable truth...coming from someone who has previously argued that Rafa should be anointed as the GOAT over the likes of Federer, I confess to for the historical record that there has never been a player as magnificent as Novak Djokovic, ever, in the history of tennis. For all intents and purposes, he is the greatest.
I can't prove this by the numbers quite yet, unless you look at his 28-25 career lifetime record against Nadal or his 25-22 mark against Fed, or the fact that he's the only man ever to win all nine Masters 1000 series tournaments, or that he's better than Federer and just percentage points behind Nadal in career winning percentage, or...okay, you can kinda argue by the numbers. But he doesn't have as many ATP wins as Nadal or Federer, and his major total, now 15, trails both men (17 for Rafa, 20 for Federer). Depending on injuries and the ravages of time, he may exceed them both by next year, or he may never quite get there. I tend to think he'll reach 21 before it's all over, especially in the absence of any young geniuses that have shown the ability to challenge the three kings, but that's speculative.
What I can say, and what I believe is obvious, is that his peak form represents the greatest tennis the world has ever seen, and I find it impossible to credit any argument to the contrary. Australia 2019 was the latest proof, but we've seen it time and again—in terms of pure talent and mental toughness, nobody can touch his best. And on behalf of Rafa zealots everywhere, I curse his very existence.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
I must admit it was better than the alternativeWe've had way more than that. And you enjoyed the last few fairytale days yourself, admit it.
but, I might make a heel turn at the FO
Federev
Legend
You sound as if Novak doesn't have his fans who say biased ridiculous things to boost their man.
Chill w the implicit hate and learn from Pepe. Peace and love, peace and love.
...Calm, steady, and zen just like Novak in the AO final.
Meanwhile, remember you still have 6 more slams to to go before you can rip your shirt off. It may be coming soon, but it's not yet here. Wait for it with humility and respect, you're still only on the Bronze platform.
Be like Novak. Not his dad.
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Show me where I said "all"? Obviously I was referring to the people who said that (some of whom are now saying differently in this very thread) If it doesn't apply to you then it doesn't apply to you.
Your last paragraph is embarrassing and shows the tribal way YOU view it.
Federev
Legend
More Pepe less Srđan
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Federev
Legend
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Keep having a meltdown. I have the flu and you are improving my spirits by laughing at you
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
Federev
Legend
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
You can ask GOA to chat again buddy. Here is your chance...
Federev
Legend
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Yes. Here I am right now...
So easy to reveal trolls true colors lmao. Imagine me sitting posting Federer pics thinking I'm making a point against him. What are you 8?
Federev
Legend
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
Against tribal policy. Stop being jealous.
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Jealous? I'm giving you the green light?
You can try your old line
"Would you like to chat for a bit? "
Federev
Legend
Last edited:
That's an oversimplification. It's not a matter of relative degrees of "success," but rather of no success at all -- or even no matches at all -- on the specialist's nonfavored surface(s).
In other word, a surface specialist is not someone who wins 10 titles on his favorite surface, but only four or five titles on another surface. A surface specialist is a player who wins titles and makes finals on his preferred surface, but gets bounced in early rounds on the other surface(s). Or he may skip those tournaments altogether, the way some clay specialists of the 90s avoided Wimbledon.
That is a ridiculous argument. Choose whatever cliched metaphor you like, and it's applicable here: putting the cart before the horse, letting the tail wag the dog, etc. The slams do not exist in order to provide reliable data for someone's GOAT analysis. Rather, a GOAT analysis is supposed to rank the performances of tennis players in the sport AS IT IS, regardless of the assortment of surfaces on which major tournaments are played. You start with tennis as it exists, and as it has existed historically. Then you do the best you can, if you want to make a GOAT argument. You do not start with abstract GOAT criteria and then complain that tennis as it's actually played fails to match them.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
Jealous? I'm giving you the green light?
You can try your old line
"Would you like to chat for a bit? "
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
LOL.you might be right!
Coach cahill, Mats and others are saying he went to another level. I actually think he is better than ever. And i am very conservative on these things. Even better than 2011 his court positioning is better than ever. Now lets see if he can continue it. But that AO final was absurd. Nadal is a 17 time major winner!
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Federev
Legend
I did not mean to yell right when the ball boy was there. You were pushing all my buttons. He was near my computer.
As pro-poster, you learn how to control your anger, but unfortunately in the heat of the moment my emotions got the best of me. I apologize to his parents and to TTW and to you.
Also - what my dad says about you - it's not from me. He does not speak for me.
I wish you a healthy recovery from your flu.
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Seek help^ if you can't call someone please give me a number so I can alert your family or friends. Mental health is very important.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
Lol this is blasphemy! Heretical! Heretics! Seriously tho there are several things about him that will allow it. It would be a cool thread discission.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
You know let's make sure TTW does not shame us into not celebrating and having fun on here!
Federev
Legend
I've sought help from my dad, but it only led to more anger.
I've sought help from metaphysical gurus, but it only sapped my zeal.
Truth is, there is only one man who can help me now.
Bukowski
Professional
If you fixed all the variables so that racket and string technology had to remain the same, all tournament had to stay at the exact same court speeds etc then maybe you could compare generations and have a GOAT? Even then, as the sport expands and more and more players compete then you will see better athletes playing which would give them an advantage to previous generations.
Federev
Legend
hey man - honestly - just having fun w you. Don't mean to offend. And Novak is a beast. I'm enjoying him more through the years.
Hope you feel better from the flu. Really. I know it can be awful.
We were lucky to get all our shots this year and avoid it so far.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
There is just too much awesomeness, epickness, greatness and phenomenalness to go around the goat thing is just to narrow for my tastes. Too tribal. Too black and white.
Federev
Legend
AceSalvo
Legend
Well there has not been anyone yet that has dominated two surfaces like Fed.
Hence he is GOAT. Pretty easy.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
If there is a goat it would be him. The career span! It is the career span!
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Golden Masters. More weeks at #1. Leading H2H. 5 more World Championships. Held all 4 Slams on 3 different surfaces.
Novak is ahead of Rafa in the GOAT race. For now at least.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
You know he doesn't KR. Can't blame you for trying though.
