Why there will never be a tennis GOAT

[True Fanerer]

Golden Masters. More weeks at #1. Leading H2H. 5 more World Championships. Held all 4 Slams on 3 different surfaces.

Novak is ahead of Rafa in the GOAT race. For now at least.

This is a bad pattern on you guys part. Djokovic surpassed Sampras at 12, you all said. Djokovic has passed Nadal at 15, you all said once again. Then 18..... HELL NAW

 

[KINGROGER]

You know he doesn't KR. Can't blame you for trying though.

How would you assess them?

11>10 at slams 6>5 at YEC. 1 more of each would have them tied as co GOAT or HC. He’d need 2 slams to fully surpass Fed overall, but it would remain split over slow and fast imo.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Grand Slam race without the US Open:

Federer 15
Nadal 14
Djokovic 11

Grand Slam race without the Australian Open
Nadal 16
Federer 14
Djokovic 7

Try that with this parameter:

Grand Slam Race without Wimbledon

Grand Slam Race without RG

Just beyond pathetic.

 

[RF-18]

Wimbledon 2015
USO 2015
Australian Open 2016
Roland Garros 2016

Master of all surfaces. As overall as you can get.

 

[MeatTornado]

Wimbledon 2015
USO 2015
Australian Open 2016
Roland Garros 2016

Master of all surfaces. As overall as you can get.

A couple more French Opens wouldn't hurt. He could definitely get more well rounded.

 

[GabeT]

Djokovic fans had their 5 days of fairytale land. Now back to reality.

We need more time!

 

[Djokovic2011]

How would you assess them?

11>10 at slams 6>5 at YEC. 1 more of each would have them tied as co GOAT or HC. He’d need 2 slams to fully surpass Fed overall, but it would remain split over slow and fast imo.

No way do I think Djokovic needs to win two more HC Slams. One more will be enough(baring in mind he already has more final appearances) and even if he doesn't win another YEC, his extra Masters titles will be enough to make up the deficit IMO. One more title really isn't that big a deal.

 

[True Fanerer]

We need more time!

Can't stop you. Only hoping to contain

 

[Deleted member 743561]

.

 

[magdalenapratt]

I'm sorry to say this, but naked Tsitsipas is the GOAT.

 

[serveandvolley_]

This is a bad pattern on you guys part. Djokovic surpassed Sampras at 12, you all said. Djokovic has passed Nadal at 15, you all said once again. Then 18..... HELL NAW

He will get there eventually, just don't bring up any excuses when he does.

 

[sureshs]

What is a surfaces' specialist? A player who is more succesful in one surface than the others.

In tennis, there are 2 Grand Slams on hard courts, 1 on grass and 1 on clay. It gives a clear advantage to hard court specialists. Thus, the Grand Slam race is utterly irrelevant since it gives advantage to the hard court specialists, not the overall most accomplished player.

The only way that the Grand Slam race would make sense is if the Australian Open and the US Open rotate every year to have one Grand Slam per surface. For example:

2020: Australian Open is held and the US Open is not held.
2021: US Open is held and the Australian Open is not held.
2022: Australian Open is held and the US Open is not held.
2023: US Open is held and the Australian Open is not held.

Before Djokovic fans complain, think about it: if there were 2 Grand Slams on clay Nadal could potentially finish his career with 30 Grand Slams. Would that make him the GOAT or simply the greatest clay player? If there were 2 Grand Slams on grass, Federer could potentially finish his career with 26 Grand Slams or more. Would that make Federer the GOAT or simply the greatest grass player?

Djokovic can end up with 23 Grand Slams, but it will only be because 2 Grand Slams are on hard courts. If 2 Grand Slams were on clay, Nadal would win the Grand Slam race. If 2 Grand Slams were on grass, Federer would win the Grand Slam race.

There can only be a GOAT of surfaces:

Clay GOAT: Nadal
Grass GOAT: Federer
Hard courts GOAT: Djokovic


Overall GOAT: nobody.

You obviously never heard of H2H

 

[True Fanerer]

He will get there eventually, just don't bring up any excuses when he does.

I won't say a word at 21.

 

[True Fanerer]

Or 22.

 

[Shank Volley]

You ever notice how it's always the Nadal fans who either claim that the big three are joint GOATs or that there's no GOAT? I guess that's what happens when you can't argue for your player based on either grand slam victories or H2H because in both cases there's someone better.

 

[Fiero425]

You ever notice how it's always the Nadal fans who either claim that the big three are joint GOATs or that there's no GOAT? I guess that's what happens when you can't argue for your player based on either Grand Slam victories or H2H because in both cases there's someone better.

There has to be a real sense of insecurity with 11 FO's of the 17 majors on his resume and lacking a real balance! How can someone be "THE GOAT" if he's 2 other players' b!tch on other surfaces? Even Borg had to do more than win his 6 FO to be thought in the league of Laver! Winning those 5 straight Wimbledons cemented his legacy and people still talk about him! Sampras will be forgotten unfortunately for him since Fedalovic came along to wipe out his records so soon! Laver's still enjoying his notoriety of winning 2 Grand Slams; '62 & '69, but Nole's on the cusp of a 2nd Nole-Slam which seems more impressive winning on 3 surfaces instead of 2!

 

[The Fedfather]

There has to be a real sense of insecurity with 11 FO's of the 17 majors on his resume and lacking a real balance! How can someone be "THE GOAT" if he's 2 other players' b!tch on other surfaces? Even Borg had to do more than win his 6 FO to be thought in the league of Laver! Winning those 5 straight Wimbledons cemented his legacy and people still talk about him! Sampras will be forgotten unfortunately for him since Fedalovic came along to wipe out his records so soon! Laver's still enjoying his notoriety of winning 2 Grand Slams; '62 & '69, but Nole's on the cusp of a 2nd Nole-Slam which seems more impressive winning on 3 surfaces instead of 2!

 

[Fiero425]

Federer Majors (20):

AO: 6 - ++++++
FO: 1 - +
Wm: 8 - ++++++++
USO: 5 - +++++

Djokovic Majors (15):

AO: 7 - +++++++
FO: 1 - +
Wm: 4 - ++++
USO: 3 - +++

Nadal Majors (17):

AO: 1 - +
FO: 11 - +++++++++++
Wm: 2 - ++
USO: 3 - +++

Even though Nadal has 2 more majors on his resume, the imbalance is quite obvious making it difficult to isolate him as a "lone GOAT!" Grouping him with Fedovic really helps him; esp. with his early success against them!

 

[Druss]

If we're talking about fair distribution of surfaces, how about having 1 or 2 Masters 1000 on Grass?

 

[The Fedfather]

Federer Majors (20):

AO: 6 - ++++++
FO: 1 - +
Wm: 8 - ++++++++
USO: 5 - +++++

Djokovic Majors (15):

AO: 7 - +++++++
FO: 1 - +
Wm: 4 - ++++
USO: 3 - +++

Nadal Majors (17):

AO: 1 - +
FO: 11 - +++++++++++
Wm: 2 - ++
USO: 3 - +++

Even though Nadal has 2 more majors on his resume, the imbalance is quite obvious making it difficult to isolate him as a "lone GOAT!" Grouping him with Fedovic really helps him; esp. with his early success with them!

I'm don't think Nadal will end up as the GOAT, same goes for Djokovic. What I'm saying is Rafa competed well enough with Fedovic off clay.

 

[Fiero425]

If we're talking about fair distribution of surfaces, how about having 1 or 2 Masters 1000 on Grass?

I said many times in the past that Queens should probably be elevated to Masters' status!

 

[RaulRamirez]

I like this.

Well put, simple and obvious.

Except ... I think Federer’s best on HC beats Novak’s.

This is only borne out by the fact that they are both well past their peak and Fed still leads the HC slam race 11-10.

But, I think it's likely that Novak will win at least 2 more HC slams.

 

[Federev]

But, I think it's likely that Novak will win at least 2 more HC slams.

Me too.

 

[Federev]

GOAT threads are so hot right now.

!!!!!!!!!!!

Hansel!!!!!!!!!!!

So great!!!!!!

 

[KINGROGER]

No way do I think Djokovic needs to win two more HC Slams. One more will be enough(baring in mind he already has more final appearances) and even if he doesn't win another YEC, his extra Masters titles will be enough to make up the deficit IMO. One more title really isn't that big a deal.

If he wins 1 more slam they’re tied on HC. Fed’s numerous Basel/Dubai titles make up the masters deficit... which isn’t even a lot.

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

I'm sorry to say this, but naked Tsitsipas is the GOAT.

No need to be sorry dear

 

[3lite]

Then why does Djokovic have 7 Australian Open and 1 Roland Garros?

There is no such thing as a "neutral" surface which doesn't suit any style. Hard courts suit Djokovic's style more than Federer's or Nadal's one.

Because Nadal is a clay court specialist?

 

[Red Rick]

This is a bad pattern on you guys part. Djokovic surpassed Sampras at 12, you all said. Djokovic has passed Nadal at 15, you all said once again. Then 18..... HELL NAW

I'd say it was pretty fair to say Djokovic had surpassed Sampras at 12 Slams. I don't think he's surpassed Nadal now though.

 

[Djokovic2011]

If he wins 1 more slam they’re tied on HC. Fed’s numerous Basel/Dubai titles make up the masters deficit... which isn’t even a lot.

I think Masters level and above is what really matters and Djokovic has won plenty of 500 tournaments on HC as well. Just accept now that he'll be greater than Federer on 2/3 surfaces by the time he's done KR - it'll sting much less when it actually happens.

 

[mika1979]

What is a surfaces' specialist? A player who is more succesful in one surface than the others.

In tennis, there are 2 Grand Slams on hard courts, 1 on grass and 1 on clay. It gives a clear advantage to hard court specialists. Thus, the Grand Slam race is utterly irrelevant since it gives advantage to the hard court specialists, not the overall most accomplished player.

The only way that the Grand Slam race would make sense is if the Australian Open and the US Open rotate every year to have one Grand Slam per surface. For example:

2020: Australian Open is held and the US Open is not held.
2021: US Open is held and the Australian Open is not held.
2022: Australian Open is held and the US Open is not held.
2023: US Open is held and the Australian Open is not held.

Before Djokovic fans complain, think about it: if there were 2 Grand Slams on clay Nadal could potentially finish his career with 30 Grand Slams. Would that make him the GOAT or simply the greatest clay player? If there were 2 Grand Slams on grass, Federer could potentially finish his career with 26 Grand Slams or more. Would that make Federer the GOAT or simply the greatest grass player?

Djokovic can end up with 23 Grand Slams, but it will only be because 2 Grand Slams are on hard courts. If 2 Grand Slams were on clay, Nadal would win the Grand Slam race. If 2 Grand Slams were on grass, Federer would win the Grand Slam race.

There can only be a GOAT of surfaces:

Clay GOAT: Nadal
Grass GOAT: Federer
Hard courts GOAT: Djokovic


Overall GOAT: nobody.

This is true but don't forget that nobody gave a crap about the fo until Rafa put it back on the map.

 

[mika1979]

I'd say it was pretty fair to say Djokovic had surpassed Sampras at 12 Slams. I don't think he's surpassed Nadal now though.

I don't really see any metric by which Rafa is ahead apart from two crappy French opens, the Novak slam and wtf easily make up for this

 

[Red Rick]

I don't really see any metric by which Rafa is ahead apart from two crappy French opens, the Novak slam and wtf easily make up for this

Differentiating Slams based on arbitrary metrics is a slippery slope and a ****ty way to approach this imo.

 

[mika1979]

Differentiating Slams based on arbitrary metrics is a slippery slope and a ****ty way to approach this imo.

Four in a row is not arbitrary, and neither is 5 wtf to 0, this definitely has a value.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

I have stronger opinions on who isnt GOAT. Among the big 3, Rafa is the one with least claim to be GOAT because there are not 1, not 2, but 3 different players who are better than him on 2/3 surfaces and in 3/4 slams - Djokovic, Federer and Sampras. This is where Rafa's clay skew really hurts him.

 

[Nole_King]

Correct.

Apart from overall GOAT. That's Rod Laver.

As this whole thread seems to be based on judging by surfaces (3) ... didn't Laver played at less different surfaces ..?

 

[Nole_King]

Premature. Djokovic still needs 2 more HC GS, 2 more YEC to surpass Fed on hard court.

What else ...? 2 more kids?

 

[Nole_King]

Funny that such threads appear when Nadal fans realize that there's no chance of their idol becoming GOAT

 

[-NN-]

Funny that such threads appear when Nadal fans realize that there's no chance of their idol becoming GOAT

Gotta shift those goal posts, no?

... no?

 

[Nole_King]

Gotta shift those goal posts, no?

... no?

Check this ...

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...e-goat-in-the-next-slam.636531/#post-13091314

 

[Big Serve]

Nadal is still GOAT. We'll see who has more majors by year's end.

 

[Nole_King]

Nadal is still GOAT. We'll see who has more majors by year's end.

Your fellow Nadal fangirl doesn't agree:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...e-goat-in-the-next-slam.636531/#post-13091205

 

[True Fanerer]

I'd say it was pretty fair to say Djokovic had surpassed Sampras at 12 Slams. I don't think he's surpassed Nadal now though.

More fair with Sampras since he never achieved the Career Slam. I agree that it was an argument even if I disagreed with it as a whole. Nadal on the other hand is a different story imo. Djokovic needs just a little more. Plus, Djokovic and Sampras comparisons were much easier since Pete was retired and could do no further damage.

 

[Spencer Gore]

As this whole thread seems to be based on judging by surfaces (3) ... didn't Laver played at less different surfaces ..?

If you exclude the grass, clay, outdoor hard courts, indoor hard courts, indoor carpet and wood that Laver played and won on, then yes.

 

[BHud]

Shiftin goal posts now that Epic Bull’s margin to surpass Fed is getting thinner and thinner.

I honestly think Nole will pass Bull in slam count, relegating him to 3rd position. Bull's over-dependence on clay results will further damage his case for GOAT.

 

[KINGROGER]

I think Masters level and above is what really matters and Djokovic has won plenty of 500 tournaments on HC as well. Just accept now that he'll be greater than Federer on 2/3 surfaces by the time he's done KR - it'll sting much less when it actually happens.

They’re all minor events under the slams/YEC. IE many Dubai/Basel wins have been strong fields comparable to certain masters wins.

No chance

 

[Enceladus]

Guys, the current layout of surfaces on the GS tournaments is not bad, as @Sport says. Tennis have two majors on the natural surface (clay (RG), grass (Wimbledon)) and two on the artificial surface (hard (AO, USO)). HC is today the most widespread surface, so it's understandable, that HC has two GS tournaments. However, it would be worth considering whether either AO or USO would go to the carpet, then there would be four different surfaces on the GS, and a balance would be maintained - two majors at natural surface x two majors at artifical surface.

 

[AceSalvo]

Guys, the current layout of surfaces on the GS tournaments is not bad, as @Sport says. Tennis have two majors on the natural surface (clay (RG), grass (Wimbledon)) and two on the artificial surface (hard (AO, USO)). HC is today the most widespread surface, so it's understandable, that HC has two GS tournaments. However, it would be worth considering whether either AO or USO would go to the carpet, then there would be four different surfaces on the GS, and a balance would be maintained - two majors at natural surface x two majors at artifical surface.

Do you think OP didn’t know that?

 

[TMF]

No way do I think Djokovic needs to win two more HC Slams. One more will be enough(baring in mind he already has more final appearances) and even if he doesn't win another YEC, his extra Masters titles will be enough to make up the deficit IMO. One more title really isn't that big a deal.

To each his own.

No surprise here that you short-change other players while overrate Nole.

 

[Badabing888]

Guys, the current layout of surfaces on the GS tournaments is not bad, as @Sport says. Tennis have two majors on the natural surface (clay (RG), grass (Wimbledon)) and two on the artificial surface (hard (AO, USO)). HC is today the most widespread surface, so it's understandable, that HC has two GS tournaments. However, it would be worth considering whether either AO or USO would go to the carpet, then there would be four different surfaces on the GS, and a balance would be maintained - two majors at natural surface x two majors at artifical surface.

Since when is clay a natural surface? Its top layer is made from crushed red brick. Hardly natural. It’s not like it’s played on a living, breathing plant like grass.

 

[mike danny]

Djokovic is the HC Goat, he's also 6 years younger, many more AO and USO's to come.

Not yet.