Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Murray, French Open final, 2016

Waspsting said:

Novak Djokovic beat Andy Murray 3-6, 6-1, 6-2, 6-4 in the French Open final, 2016 on clay

With the win, Djokovic completed a non-calendar year Grand Slam, becoming the second man in the Open Era to hold all 4 Slams simultaneously. It was also his first French title and completed his career Grand Slam. Murray, who had also lost to Djokovic in the Australian Open final earlier in the year, would go on to win Wimbledon and finish year end number 1 by beating Djokovic in the final of the Year End Championship

Djokovic won 122 points, Murray 97

Serve Stats
Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (76/110) 69%
- 1st serve points won (49/76) 64%
- 2nd serve points won (20/34) 59%
- Aces 4, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (23/110) 21%

Murray...
- 1st serve percentage (55/109) 50%
- 1st serve points won (34/55) 62%
- 2nd serve points won (25/54) 46%
- Aces 4
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (21/109) 19%

Serve Patterns
Djokovic served...
- to FH 49%
- to BH 48%
- to Body 4%

Murray served...
- to FH 45%
- to BH 46%
- to Body 8%

Return Stats
Djokovic made...
- 85 (39 FH, 46 BH), including 4 runaround FHs & 3 return-approaches
- 2 Winners (2 FH)
- 17 Errors, comprising...
- 1 Unforced (1 FH)
- 16 Forced (12 FH, 4 BH)
- Return Rate (85/106) 80%

Murray made...
- 84 (43 FH, 41 BH)
- 1 Winner (1 FH)
- 18 Errors, comprising...
- 7 Unforced (3 FH, 4 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 11 Forced (6 FH, 5 BH)
- Return Rate (84/107) 79%

Break Points
Djokovic 7/14 (9 games)
Murray 3/10 (5 game)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Djokovic 36 (14 FH, 10 BH, 7 FHV, 2 BHV, 3 OH)
Murray 16 (9 FH, 4 BH, 1 BHV, 2 OH)

Djokovic's FHs - 4 cc (1 pass), 4 dtl (2 returns - 1 a runaround), 3 inside-out, 2 cc running-down-drop-shots at net and 1 dtl pass running down-drop-volley at net
- BHs - 4 dtl, 2 drop shots, 1 longline/cc and 3 cc running-down-drop-shots at net

- 3 FHVs were swinging shots, of which 1 was not a net point. the other 3 were all drops
- 1 BHV came off a return-approach point

Murray's FHs - 4 cc (2 passes), 2 inside-out, 1 inside-in return, 1 longline and 1 cc running-down-drop-shot at net
- BHs - 1 inside-out/longline, 1 drop shot, 1 lob and 1 net chord dribbler

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Djokovic 57
- 38 Unforced (22 FH, 15 BH, 1 OH)…. the OH was hit from the baseline
- 19 Forced (6 FH, 12 BH, 1 BHV)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.6

Murray 60
- 39 Unforced (15 FH, 22 BH, 2 FHV)
- 21 Forced (12 FH, 9 BH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 43.3

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Djokovic was...
- 23/31 (74%) at net, with...
- 3/3 (100%) return-approaching
- 1/2 forced back

Murray was...
- 12/23 (52%) at net, with...
- 1/2 forced back/retreated

Match Report
Great match from Djokovic, who's just that much better than Murray at everything. Nonetheless, Murray plays well too and its fine match

In virtually all areas, the two players are similar of style - which results in the stats turning out a good picture of the match. In other words, description of play isn't too necessary

Both have strong first serves - Murray the stronger. But Djoko has a much higher first serve percentage (69% to 50%), giving him the advantage on that score. Generally, Djoko has a much stronger second serve than Murray (or to be more precise, Murray has a weak one), but that isn't true in this match: Murray's clearly beefed up his second serve and its at least as strong as Djoko's (slightly stronger I'd say). Murray even forces a couple of errors with strong second serves

Both are first class returners in general - Djoko probably slightly stronger. And that's true of this match. Note the 7 return UEs from Murray (a couple of them against first serves). By contrast, Djoko has just 1. Note also Djoko return-approaching 3 times (won all three points)… not something that's part of his regular game

Both are strong baseliners - generally, Djoko stronger and a bit more aggressive. And that's true in this match. Note near identical errors - both number and breakdown -

Djokovic 57 (38 Unforced, 19 Forced)
Murray 60 (39 Unforced, 21 Forced)

That looks about even, and its usually the critical factor on clay. Two things put Djoko over -

- greater aggression (he has 36 winners to Murray's 16), and related to that...
- net play (he comes in 31 times to Murray's 23 and wins 74% to Murray's 52%)

The key to the match isn't just Djoko being more aggressive, but that aggression being within his comfort zone of play. Murray's at his best when he's aggressive (both on return and from the baseline), but its clear he's straining beyond his natural game to so be. This has come out well in the UEFI. Djoko's is tilted towards attacking (47.6) while Murray's indicates passivity (43.3)

Note also the bulk of Djoko's UEs being FHs (22/38), while for Murray its the BH (22/39). Another indicator of Djoko being more aggressive

Match starts with a bang as Djokovic breaks to love, but is broken in turn on his first two service games. Murray nurses that one break advantage to take the set, though neither player has it easy to hold. Murray is aggressive in this set - stepping in to attack second serves and also from the baseline

Even so, Djoko is the more aggressive and makes Murray run a lot more than the other way round. Murray defends very well and the result goes his way due to Djoko making UEs from commanding position. Its a sliver of weakness in Djoko's game that you'll rarely see. Lack of finishing touch from commanding positions. Just a rare sliver, mind you

Djoko himself defends stoutly, but isn't under attack to the same degree. Story of first set... great defence from Murray and Djoko unable to nurse command from baseline to win as many points as he'd like

From second set til near the end, its a different story. Djoko cleans up the finishing touch - helped in part by opportune approaches. He continues to be the aggressor. Murray eases up on his own attacks somewhat but its largely forced due to Djoko dominating play. Primarily credit to Djokovic for the dynamic, slight black mark against Murray for being passive

Djoko also has high first serve percentage in this part of the match, making it that much harder for Murray to attack, but Andy does tend to safely return the second serves he does see.

Strong net instincts shown by Djoko. When in command, he comes in to put points to bed. The excellent 74% net points won actually falls right at the end, when he has a nervy finish.... it was even higher for most of the match

Djoko broke to start the 4th and later broke to love to serve for the match at 5-2. Good game from Murray to break back, but there's some nerves from Djoko. He'd double faulted once all match, but does so twice in last 2 service games

There's also lots of drop shots from both players, more from Djoko. Murray loses most of the points he tries the shot on (note Djoko's 6 winners running down drop shots)… primarily credit to Djokovic for that. His movement is not only swift, but he slides and stretches to enhance even that. Good drop shots from Andy, just better running them down and touch to deal by Djoko

Djoko's about 50-50 on drop shot plays. Even if he'd been slightly under 50% on his drop shot plays, I'd say it was a successful ploy. The drop shot keeps Andy honest in his defensive positions... as he falls back with Djoko stepping in to attack, he has to be wary of the drop shot

Murray's footspeed is on par with Djoko, but doesn't quite have sliding down to perfection like the Serb. And of course, those ridiculous plastic man stretching antics that are intrinsic part of Djoko's game

I've stressed that Djoko was the more aggressive player, but its worth pointing out that not only is that no guarantee of being the better but on clay, its more often than not the opposite. The more solid player usually wins. The essence of Djoko's win is that he remains just as solid as Murray while being more aggressive, and that feeds back into the main story of the match. That Djokovic's natural game includes the moderate aggression with which he plays.... but Murray's is a step below and he has to up the ante to match it

Given he was usually being dictated to from the back, it would be an uphill task for Murray to seize control of points, as well as risky. I think he should have tried regardless. By not doing so, he effectively left the match on Djoko's racquet... he would have needed Djokovic to play badly to come out ahead. That's not a good game plan

Summing up, good hard match between two similarly strong, consistent and fleet footed players. Djokovic's just better at doing what they both do - a great performance from him

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Waspsting said:

Novak Djokovic beat Andy Murray 3-6, 6-1, 6-2, 6-4 in the French Open final, 2016 on clay

With the win, Djokovic completed a non-calendar year Grand Slam, becoming the second man in the Open Era to hold all 4 Slams simultaneously. It was also his first French title and completed his career Grand Slam. Murray, who had also lost to Djokovic in the Australian Open final earlier in the year, would go on to win Wimbledon and finish year end number 1 by beating Djokovic in the final of the Year End Championship

Djokovic won 122 points, Murray 97

Serve Stats
Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (76/110) 69%
- 1st serve points won (49/76) 64%
- 2nd serve points won (20/34) 59%
- Aces 4, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (23/110) 21%

Murray...
- 1st serve percentage (55/109) 50%
- 1st serve points won (34/55) 62%
- 2nd serve points won (25/54) 46%
- Aces 4
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (21/109) 19%

Serve Patterns
Djokovic served...
- to FH 49%
- to BH 48%
- to Body 4%

Murray served...
- to FH 45%
- to BH 46%
- to Body 8%

Return Stats
Djokovic made...
- 85 (39 FH, 46 BH), including 4 runaround FHs & 3 return-approaches
- 2 Winners (2 FH)
- 17 Errors, comprising...
- 1 Unforced (1 FH)
- 16 Forced (12 FH, 4 BH)
- Return Rate (85/106) 80%

Murray made...
- 84 (43 FH, 41 BH)
- 1 Winner (1 FH)
- 18 Errors, comprising...
- 7 Unforced (3 FH, 4 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 11 Forced (6 FH, 5 BH)
- Return Rate (84/107) 79%

Break Points
Djokovic 7/14 (9 games)
Murray 3/10 (5 game)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Djokovic 36 (14 FH, 10 BH, 7 FHV, 2 BHV, 3 OH)
Murray 16 (9 FH, 4 BH, 1 BHV, 2 OH)

Djokovic's FHs - 4 cc (1 pass), 4 dtl (2 returns - 1 a runaround), 3 inside-out, 2 cc running-down-drop-shots at net and 1 dtl pass running down-drop-volley at net
- BHs - 4 dtl, 2 drop shots, 1 longline/cc and 3 cc running-down-drop-shots at net

- 3 FHVs were swinging shots, of which 1 was not a net point. the other 3 were all drops
- 1 BHV came off a return-approach point

Murray's FHs - 4 cc (2 passes), 2 inside-out, 1 inside-in return, 1 longline and 1 cc running-down-drop-shot at net
- BHs - 1 inside-out/longline, 1 drop shot, 1 lob and 1 net chord dribbler

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Djokovic 57
- 38 Unforced (22 FH, 15 BH, 1 OH)…. the OH was hit from the baseline
- 19 Forced (6 FH, 12 BH, 1 BHV)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.6

Murray 60
- 39 Unforced (15 FH, 22 BH, 2 FHV)
- 21 Forced (12 FH, 9 BH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 43.3

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Djokovic was...
- 23/31 (74%) at net, with...
- 3/3 (100%) return-approaching
- 1/2 forced back

Murray was...
- 12/23 (52%) at net, with...
- 1/2 forced back/retreated

Match Report
Great match from Djokovic, who's just that much better than Murray at everything. Nonetheless, Murray plays well too and its fine match

In virtually all areas, the two players are similar of style - which results in the stats turning out a good picture of the match. In other words, description of play isn't too necessary

Both have strong first serves - Murray the stronger. But Djoko has a much higher first serve percentage (69% to 50%), giving him the advantage on that score. Generally, Djoko has a much stronger second serve than Murray (or to be more precise, Murray has a weak one), but that isn't true in this match: Murray's clearly beefed up his second serve and its at least as strong as Djoko's (slightly stronger I'd say). Murray even forces a couple of errors with strong second serves

Both are first class returners in general - Djoko probably slightly stronger. And that's true of this match. Note the 7 return UEs from Murray (a couple of them against first serves). By contrast, Djoko has just 1. Note also Djoko return-approaching 3 times (won all three points)… not something that's part of his regular game

Both are strong baseliners - generally, Djoko stronger and a bit more aggressive. And that's true in this match. Note near identical errors - both number and breakdown -

Djokovic 57 (38 Unforced, 19 Forced)
Murray 60 (39 Unforced, 21 Forced)

That looks about even, and its usually the critical factor on clay. Two things put Djoko over -

- greater aggression (he has 36 winners to Murray's 16), and related to that...
- net play (he comes in 31 times to Murray's 23 and wins 74% to Murray's 52%)

The key to the match isn't just Djoko being more aggressive, but that aggression being within his comfort zone of play. Murray's at his best when he's aggressive (both on return and from the baseline), but its clear he's straining beyond his natural game to so be. This has come out well in the UEFI. Djoko's is tilted towards attacking (47.6) while Murray's indicates passivity (43.3)

Note also the bulk of Djoko's UEs being FHs (22/38), while for Murray its the BH (22/39). Another indicator of Djoko being more aggressive

Match starts with a bang as Djokovic breaks to love, but is broken in turn on his first two service games. Murray nurses that one break advantage to take the set, though neither player has it easy to hold. Murray is aggressive in this set - stepping in to attack second serves and also from the baseline

Even so, Djoko is the more aggressive and makes Murray run a lot more than the other way round. Murray defends very well and the result goes his way due to Djoko making UEs from commanding position. Its a sliver of weakness in Djoko's game that you'll rarely see. Lack of finishing touch from commanding positions. Just a rare sliver, mind you

Djoko himself defends stoutly, but isn't under attack to the same degree. Story of first set... great defence from Murray and Djoko unable to nurse command from baseline to win as many points as he'd like

From second set til near the end, its a different story. Djoko cleans up the finishing touch - helped in part by opportune approaches. He continues to be the aggressor. Murray eases up on his own attacks somewhat but its largely forced due to Djoko dominating play. Primarily credit to Djokovic for the dynamic, slight black mark against Murray for being passive

Djoko also has high first serve percentage in this part of the match, making it that much harder for Murray to attack, but Andy does tend to safely return the second serves he does see.

Strong net instincts shown by Djoko. When in command, he comes in to put points to bed. The excellent 74% net points won actually falls right at the end, when he has a nervy finish.... it was even higher for most of the match

Djoko broke to start the 4th and later broke to love to serve for the match at 5-2. Good game from Murray to break back, but there's some nerves from Djoko. He'd double faulted once all match, but does so twice in last 2 service games

There's also lots of drop shots from both players, more from Djoko. Murray loses most of the points he tries the shot on (note Djoko's 6 winners running down drop shots)… primarily credit to Djokovic for that. His movement is not only swift, but he slides and stretches to enhance even that. Good drop shots from Andy, just better running them down and touch to deal by Djoko

Djoko's about 50-50 on drop shot plays. Even if he'd been slightly under 50% on his drop shot plays, I'd say it was a successful ploy. The drop shot keeps Andy honest in his defensive positions... as he falls back with Djoko stepping in to attack, he has to be wary of the drop shot

Murray's footspeed is on par with Djoko, but doesn't quite have sliding down to perfection like the Serb. And of course, those ridiculous plastic man stretching antics that are intrinsic part of Djoko's game

I've stressed that Djoko was the more aggressive player, but its worth pointing out that not only is that no guarantee of being the better but on clay, its more often than not the opposite. The more solid player usually wins. The essence of Djoko's win is that he remains just as solid as Murray while being more aggressive, and that feeds back into the main story of the match. That Djokovic's natural game includes the moderate aggression with which he plays.... but Murray's is a step below and he has to up the ante to match it

Given he was usually being dictated to from the back, it would be an uphill task for Murray to seize control of points, as well as risky. I think he should have tried regardless. By not doing so, he effectively left the match on Djoko's racquet... he would have needed Djokovic to play badly to come out ahead. That's not a good game plan

Summing up, good hard match between two similarly strong, consistent and fleet footed players. Djokovic's just better at doing what they both do - a great performance from him

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beltsman said:

Please put these in a book my friend.

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Both are first class returners in general - Djoko probably slightly stronger. And that's true of this match. Note the 7 return UEs from Murray (a couple of them against first serves). By contrast, Djoko has just 1. Note also Djoko return-approaching 3 times (won all three points)… not something that's part of his regular game

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Murray plays well too and its fine match...

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StrongRule said:

Murray plays well? He was atrocious after the first set. I have never seen such a hopeless player in a slam final.

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StrongRule said:

Murray plays well? He was atrocious after the first set. I have never seen such a hopeless player in a slam final.

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AnOctorokForDinner said:

As usual, Djokovic wins by doing everything better than Murray does. Some competition. Not that it's even relevant since Djoko's level was enough to 'validate' his title regardless, but that's not enough to admit it seems.

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Mainad said:

While that theory does admittedly often seem to hold water it doesn't quite explain why, other than Federer and Nadal, Murray is the guy Djokovic has lost the most to in big title matches (2 Slams, a WTF, 5 Masters 1000s) and even surrendered his #1 ranking to.

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Third Serve said:

Nadal in AO 2019.

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StrongRule said:

Not really. As bad as Nadal was, he still played better than Murray was in the last 3 sets of RG 2016 final. Also, Nadal is long past his prime and he played a GOATing Djokovic in AO.

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Third Serve said:

Yeah, but Murray won a set.

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StrongRule said:

I said in the last 3 sets. Read my comment carefully. Anyway, I see no excuses for Murray collapsing like that after 40 minutes.

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AnOctorokForDinner said:

You're very dull with your proclivity to see any criticism as an attack on Murray. I tire of justifying myself to you, so would you kindly buzz off.

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beltsman said:

Please put these in a book my friend.

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Mainad said:

...other than Federer and Nadal, Murray is the guy Djokovic has lost the most to in big title matches (2 Slams, a WTF, 5 Masters 1000s) and even surrendered his #1 ranking to.

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AnOctorokForDinner said:

As usual, Djokovic wins by doing everything better than Murray does. Some competition. Not that it's even relevant since Djoko's level was enough to 'validate' his title regardless, but that's not enough to admit it seems.

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Waspsting said:

If I do, I'll dedicate to you

Chapter page is a work in progress, my posts on this page -

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?members/waspsting.750874/

I think his biggest problem is mental

Of play, he's roughly as far behind Djokovic as Mats Wilander was from Ivan Lendl

But Wilander was mentally tough, clutched up and gave as good as he got in big matches against Lendl. Murray seems to do the opposite

There was an interesting incident in this match, in conjunction with some commentary. Mary Carillo brought up how Djokovic's father had apparently strongly criticized Murray not long ago for being mentally weak and wasting emotional energy on exchanges with his box

Apparently, one of the TV guys had tried to interview Murray before the match and Andy had declined. During the match, this guy was in Murray's box, looking to interview someone there. Murray talked to the referee somewhat heatedly about having something done to prevent that

Your playing a Grand Slam final. Why on earth would something this trivial even cross your mind, much less distract you from business at hand?

I don't think its a problem in this match, but I stat-ted (i.e., watched very carefully) his finals against Roger Federer at AO '10, USO '08 and Olympics '12

In all of them, he basically just puts the ball in play... and hopes for the best, I guess(?) Pushes short balls back, particularly in Australia match

When you do this, your essentially looking to win by your opponent playing badly. And its not like he didn't know how to work Federer around the court - he did and was very successful against him during those periods. But come the big final, and he plays like that

Of course, he won the Olympics match and was very solid, but I don't think it was good strategy. Most likely outcome of playing Federer that way on grass would have been getting drubbed

Haven't rewatched his Slam finals against Djokovic (or watched particularly closely), so I'll just talk about this match. Neither his strategy or play is bad

He's a bit passive, but -

a) that's a normal, successful strategy on clay. Far as I recall, Nadal played similarly in beating Djoko here 2012-2014. Play consistent, don't go for too much, let the other guy hit his way to errors - and win

b) its largely forced by Djokovic taking up the aggressive position and forcing him on the defensive. So he's not as good from the baseline as DJokovic... that hardly makes him bad. He's the more passive in the first set too... its just that Djoko makes attacking errors that he doesn't for the rest of the match

To me, playing badly means making UEs in short rallies and to routine balls regularly

That's not what happens here. Rallies go on for awhile, Murray is more often than not pushed on the defensive but defends stoutly, gets a lot of balls back, counter-punches effectively occasionally, hits good drops shots. When he's on the attack, he pushes Djoko back and usually wins the point and that's not easy because Djoko is a defensive beast himself (the running-down-drop-shot winners are flawless)

Djokovic's routine ball is also exceptionally heavy for such a shot. If it draws an error, I mark it 'unforced'... but it is less 'unforced' than most UEs (if that makes sense)

His court coverage is excellent, about as good as Nadal's in the '12-'14 matches (sliding puts Nadal over, but footspeeds a wash I'd say)

On clay, the most telling stat is usually UEs in play. In this match, that's -

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Djokovic 57
- 38 Unforced (22 FH, 15 BH, 1 OH)…. the OH was hit from the baseline
- 19 Forced (6 FH, 12 BH, 1 BHV)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.6

Murray 60
- 39 Unforced (15 FH, 22 BH, 2 FHV)
- 21 Forced (12 FH, 9 BH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 43.3

- virtually identical, with the UEFI indicating Djoko's greater aggression and Murray's passivity.

The boatload extra winners Djoko hits puts him comfortably over and is a sign of him exceptionally well, not Murray playing badly

Absolutely, Murray plays well

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Meles said:

LOL. Murray ran out of gas quickly in this one after inexplicably starting the event out horribly and managing to barely win three matches in five sets. Djokovic walking over another compromised corpse not exactly the stuff of legends.

If you're doing a series might I suggest the last two Cryic finals.

Analyze a real match like Thiem v Nadal at 2018 US Open.

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Lew II said:

Slam finalists beaten by Djokovic had dropped on average 2.25 sets during the tournament.

Slam finalists beaten by Nadal had dropped on average 2.64 sets during the tournament.

Slam finalists beaten by Federer had dropped on average 4.2 sets during the tournament.

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AnOctorokForDinner said:

You're very dull with your proclivity to see any criticism as an attack on Murray. I tire of justifying myself to you, so would you kindly buzz off.

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StrongRule said:

Not really. As bad as Nadal was, he still played better than Murray was in the last 3 sets of RG 2016 final. Also, Nadal is long past his prime and he played a GOATing Djokovic in AO.

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RF-18 said:

Murray atleast took the first set and had BPs in the beginning of the 2nd. He gave Novak atleast a scare and put doubts in hus head of yet another FO final.

Nadal got absolutely bludgeoned from the first point to the last. Not once was Nadal in the lead of the match. If you wanna talk hopeless Nadal is the person you should be pointing your finger at, cause thats what he was in that final. Novak made him look like a 1st round qualifier.

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Waspsting said:

If I do, I'll dedicate to you

Chapter page is a work in progress, my posts on this page -

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?members/waspsting.750874/

I think his biggest problem is mental

Of play, he's roughly as far behind Djokovic as Mats Wilander was from Ivan Lendl

But Wilander was mentally tough, clutched up and gave as good as he got in big matches against Lendl. Murray seems to do the opposite

There was an interesting incident in this match, in conjunction with some commentary. Mary Carillo brought up how Djokovic's father had apparently strongly criticized Murray not long ago for being mentally weak and wasting emotional energy on exchanges with his box

Apparently, one of the TV guys had tried to interview Murray before the match and Andy had declined. During the match, this guy was in Murray's box, looking to interview someone there. Murray talked to the referee somewhat heatedly about having something done to prevent that

Your playing a Grand Slam final. Why on earth would something this trivial even cross your mind, much less distract you from business at hand?

I don't think its a problem in this match, but I stat-ted (i.e., watched very carefully) his finals against Roger Federer at AO '10, USO '08 and Olympics '12

In all of them, he basically just puts the ball in play... and hopes for the best, I guess(?) Pushes short balls back, particularly in Australia match

When you do this, your essentially looking to win by your opponent playing badly. And its not like he didn't know how to work Federer around the court - he did and was very successful against him during those periods. But come the big final, and he plays like that

Of course, he won the Olympics match and was very solid, but I don't think it was good strategy. Most likely outcome of playing Federer that way on grass would have been getting drubbed

Haven't rewatched his Slam finals against Djokovic (or watched particularly closely), so I'll just talk about this match. Neither his strategy or play is bad

He's a bit passive, but -

a) that's a normal, successful strategy on clay. Far as I recall, Nadal played similarly in beating Djoko here 2012-2014. Play consistent, don't go for too much, let the other guy hit his way to errors - and win

b) its largely forced by Djokovic taking up the aggressive position and forcing him on the defensive. So he's not as good from the baseline as DJokovic... that hardly makes him bad. He's the more passive in the first set too... its just that Djoko makes attacking errors that he doesn't for the rest of the match

To me, playing badly means making UEs in short rallies and to routine balls regularly

That's not what happens here. Rallies go on for awhile, Murray is more often than not pushed on the defensive but defends stoutly, gets a lot of balls back, counter-punches effectively occasionally, hits good drops shots. When he's on the attack, he pushes Djoko back and usually wins the point and that's not easy because Djoko is a defensive beast himself (the running-down-drop-shot winners are flawless)

Djokovic's routine ball is also exceptionally heavy for such a shot. If it draws an error, I mark it 'unforced'... but it is less 'unforced' than most UEs (if that makes sense)

His court coverage is excellent, about as good as Nadal's in the '12-'14 matches (sliding puts Nadal over, but footspeeds a wash I'd say)

On clay, the most telling stat is usually UEs in play. In this match, that's -

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Djokovic 57
- 38 Unforced (22 FH, 15 BH, 1 OH)…. the OH was hit from the baseline
- 19 Forced (6 FH, 12 BH, 1 BHV)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.6

Murray 60
- 39 Unforced (15 FH, 22 BH, 2 FHV)
- 21 Forced (12 FH, 9 BH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 43.3

- virtually identical, with the UEFI indicating Djoko's greater aggression and Murray's passivity.

The boatload extra winners Djoko hits puts him comfortably over and is a sign of him exceptionally well, not Murray playing badly

Absolutely, Murray plays well

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StrongRule said:

Murray totally collapsed after the first set and played like a total mug. No excuses for that, especially given that he should have been in his prime back then. As for 2019 Nadal, only a troll can think he is anywhere near his prime.

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Red Rick said:

If you wanna talk about Murray as if he's just a Djokovic clone you're really just reaching for arguments to hail the Ancient Almighty God Emperor.

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NoleFam said:

Your analysis and the way you actually take the time watch a match and break it down is refreshing. Everyone else just seems content in saying "Murray was crap and that's why Djokovic won" without actually giving Djokovic his due. I thought Murray played well in the first set but Djokovic made too many errors, like you said, which is what cost him that set. He had the early break and gave it back with routine errors and Murray was steady. I thought Djokovic was going for it the whole match but in set 2 and 3, he cleaned up his game considerably and kept the aggression, hitting 24 winners, 16 ues in sets 2 and 3 (according to NBC) and was 4/9 on break points. Murray was 0/5 on break points in those two sets when he was 2/4 in set 1. The one real negative to Murray was his first serve percentage. He went from 61% in the first set to under 50% in sets 2 and 4. This put less pressure on Djokovic as he hammered Murray's second serve but at the same time Djokovic also crushed his 1st serve in sets 2 and 4.

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NatF said:

Lol at the only real negative being Murray'a serve percentage, you mentioned Djokovic cleaning up his act but not Murray spraying errors in sets 2-4...

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NoleFam said:

Well you've never actually said anything about this match except that Murray played badly so I don't expect an in depth analysis with you on the subject. No offense. Djokovic played one of his best clay matches ever and was something like 17/21 at the net halfway through the 3rd set which is absurd numbers especially on clay, tracking down Murray's drop shots which are usually very good and hitting clean winners off them. So yea Murray sprayed a bit but quite a lot of that had to do with Djokovic pressuring him non-stop.

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NatF said:

Non-taken haha.

Not saying Djokovic didn't play very well but I just find it funny how Murray's poor play is just being glossed over as inconsequential. We all do it for matches like these involving our favourites essentially beating down a great play who probably should have done better.

I've only see the match once so yeah I can't go in depth, but I remember my first reactions and the stats for sets 2-4 support that totally lol.

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NoleFam said:

Well this was Djokovic at his peak. He bludgeoned Thiem in the SF who is very good on clay and a better clay player than Murray. I think this was Murray's best form on clay but the problem was he was not clutch enough at the beginning of the tournament against guys he should have beaten easily and got taken the distance too often. Federer did the same thing in RG 2009 but he didn't have to play peak Djokovic in the final. Federer played better than Murray did but that's another story. Murray spent close to 5 hours more on the court so he could not hang with Djokovic's movement in this match who was like a cheetah out there and just opening his shoulders and going after everything. He rarely played as freely as he did in sets 2-3 at this particular tournament.

Well I watched it about 2 or 3 times. Maybe you should watch it again.

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NatF said:

Pretty Federer played better than Djokovic did too let alone Murray Mostly because he didn't toss in a bad set in the beginning.

Thiem was yet to hit his stride really and quite bad in the SF IIRC.

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NoleFam said:

There's no way Federer played better than Djokovic did when he got taken to 5 sets on clay to Haas and played a close 4 setter against Acasuso. He also does not beat Thiem in 3 easy sets, losing 7 games. Saying he played a better final is one thing but even then Federer lost 11 games and Djokovic lost 13. They hit about the same amount of winners but half of Federer's came off the serve and most of Djokovic's off the baseline and at the net. Federer also played a guy who does not have Murray's movement or return of serve.

He was definitely not quite bad. He just ran into a freight train. That is probably another match you should watch again.

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NatF said:

Federer in the final was on another level compared to the rest of the tournament IMO. Also less room for groundstroke winners when you're serving like a God.

BTW TA has Murray with 5 winners and 23 UE's in sets 2 & 3, but the only negative was the serving...

Meh, overall Thiem was probably decent - maybe I'm being a little unfair to him. Remember him half breaking himself throughout the match with clusters of errors. TA point by point seems to corroborate this.

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NoleFam said:

He was and I give him that. He was not letting that slip through his fingers again in a match that he was a heavy favorite in. He brought out the serve and controlled the tempo from the start. One of his best clay matches for sure. Of course he doesn't hit 20 aces against a better returner but no doubt he served lights out. One thing you are missing though is it was a one two punch type of match and rarely any longer rallies. This played into Federer's hands and he deals with these type of opponents better than Nadal and Djokovic.

I have Murray at 6 winners and 17 unforced, (according to NBC who uses official stats most likely). Murray is playing long rallies with Djokovic so lots more opportunities to makes errors. Go compare the rally lengths from this match to the 2009 final, or even the rally length from 2016 Thiem/Djokovic and compare it to the 2009 RG final and you will see what I mean. The unforced error count was overall lower in the 2009 RG final because of that reason and serving dominated the match.

Thiem was up 3-0 in the 3rd set before Djokovci roared back and won 6-4. I know I am partial to Djokovic because he is my fave and I know bias creeps into my point of view but he really was brilliant that day. Thiem was all aggression in that match and Djokovic was controlled aggression. It was a match where even though Thiem has the larger winner/ue count it never felt like he controlled that match at all. The way Djokovic was neutralizing Thiem's bombs and making him play the kind of match he wanted was something to see. That is the difference between peak Djokovic and Djokovic today.

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NatF said:

Fair enough on Thiem and Djokovic. Though tbh that kind of game is just Thiem all over aha. When Djokovic is in the zone though you need to be very sharp to execute that style against him.

I often find when I chart matches official stats are quite generous with what they consider a forced error versus unforced tbh but ok. Still a very poor ratio - TA has most of the errors coming in rallies <6 shots as well. I never compared the UE counts of the 2009 vs 2016 finals like you said it was a different kind of match but IMO Federer beats that Murray in straight sets something, but he probably doesn't roll him 2-1 in the last two sets....

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NoleFam said:

If Djokovic played that level in 2019 he would have beaten Thiem again, no doubt in my mind. It would have been closer but I see him beating him in 4 sets.

I can't say how that match would go because they have never played on clay, which is quite crazy when you think about it. We have nothing to go by.

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NatF said:

Yeah one of the biggest oddities in the recent era for sure, maybe the biggest I can think of. I find it really weird that Hewitt and Murray only ever played once too.

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ReeceSachs said:

Not surprising with Hewitt and Murray as Hewitt went down after 2005.

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Lew II said:

Slam finalists beaten by Djokovic had dropped on average 2.25 sets during the tournament.

Slam finalists beaten by Nadal had dropped on average 2.64 sets during the tournament.

Slam finalists beaten by Federer had dropped on average 4.2 sets during the tournament.

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Waspsting said:

Novak Djokovic beat Andy Murray 3-6, 6-1, 6-2, 6-4 in the French Open final, 2016 on clay

With the win, Djokovic completed a non-calendar year Grand Slam, becoming the second man in the Open Era to hold all 4 Slams simultaneously. It was also his first French title and completed his career Grand Slam. Murray, who had also lost to Djokovic in the Australian Open final earlier in the year, would go on to win Wimbledon and finish year end number 1 by beating Djokovic in the final of the Year End Championship

Djokovic won 122 points, Murray 97

Serve Stats
Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (76/110) 69%
- 1st serve points won (49/76) 64%
- 2nd serve points won (20/34) 59%
- Aces 4, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (23/110) 21%

Murray...
- 1st serve percentage (55/109) 50%
- 1st serve points won (34/55) 62%
- 2nd serve points won (25/54) 46%
- Aces 4
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (21/109) 19%

Serve Patterns
Djokovic served...
- to FH 49%
- to BH 48%
- to Body 4%

Murray served...
- to FH 45%
- to BH 46%
- to Body 8%

Return Stats
Djokovic made...
- 85 (39 FH, 46 BH), including 4 runaround FHs & 3 return-approaches
- 2 Winners (2 FH)
- 17 Errors, comprising...
- 1 Unforced (1 FH)
- 16 Forced (12 FH, 4 BH)
- Return Rate (85/106) 80%

Murray made...
- 84 (43 FH, 41 BH)
- 1 Winner (1 FH)
- 18 Errors, comprising...
- 7 Unforced (3 FH, 4 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 11 Forced (6 FH, 5 BH)
- Return Rate (84/107) 79%

Break Points
Djokovic 7/14 (9 games)
Murray 3/10 (5 game)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Djokovic 36 (14 FH, 10 BH, 7 FHV, 2 BHV, 3 OH)
Murray 16 (9 FH, 4 BH, 1 BHV, 2 OH)

Djokovic's FHs - 4 cc (1 pass), 4 dtl (2 returns - 1 a runaround), 3 inside-out, 2 cc running-down-drop-shots at net and 1 dtl pass running down-drop-volley at net
- BHs - 4 dtl, 2 drop shots, 1 longline/cc and 3 cc running-down-drop-shots at net

- 3 FHVs were swinging shots, of which 1 was not a net point. the other 3 were all drops
- 1 BHV came off a return-approach point

Murray's FHs - 4 cc (2 passes), 2 inside-out, 1 inside-in return, 1 longline and 1 cc running-down-drop-shot at net
- BHs - 1 inside-out/longline, 1 drop shot, 1 lob and 1 net chord dribbler

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Djokovic 57
- 38 Unforced (22 FH, 15 BH, 1 OH)…. the OH was hit from the baseline
- 19 Forced (6 FH, 12 BH, 1 BHV)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.6

Murray 60
- 39 Unforced (15 FH, 22 BH, 2 FHV)
- 21 Forced (12 FH, 9 BH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 43.3

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Djokovic was...
- 23/31 (74%) at net, with...
- 3/3 (100%) return-approaching
- 1/2 forced back

Murray was...
- 12/23 (52%) at net, with...
- 1/2 forced back/retreated

Match Report
Great match from Djokovic, who's just that much better than Murray at everything. Nonetheless, Murray plays well too and its fine match

In virtually all areas, the two players are similar of style - which results in the stats turning out a good picture of the match. In other words, description of play isn't too necessary

Both have strong first serves - Murray the stronger. But Djoko has a much higher first serve percentage (69% to 50%), giving him the advantage on that score. Generally, Djoko has a much stronger second serve than Murray (or to be more precise, Murray has a weak one), but that isn't true in this match: Murray's clearly beefed up his second serve and its at least as strong as Djoko's (slightly stronger I'd say). Murray even forces a couple of errors with strong second serves

Both are first class returners in general - Djoko probably slightly stronger. And that's true of this match. Note the 7 return UEs from Murray (a couple of them against first serves). By contrast, Djoko has just 1. Note also Djoko return-approaching 3 times (won all three points)… not something that's part of his regular game

Both are strong baseliners - generally, Djoko stronger and a bit more aggressive. And that's true in this match. Note near identical errors - both number and breakdown -

Djokovic 57 (38 Unforced, 19 Forced)
Murray 60 (39 Unforced, 21 Forced)

That looks about even, and its usually the critical factor on clay. Two things put Djoko over -

- greater aggression (he has 36 winners to Murray's 16), and related to that...
- net play (he comes in 31 times to Murray's 23 and wins 74% to Murray's 52%)

The key to the match isn't just Djoko being more aggressive, but that aggression being within his comfort zone of play. Murray's at his best when he's aggressive (both on return and from the baseline), but its clear he's straining beyond his natural game to so be. This has come out well in the UEFI. Djoko's is tilted towards attacking (47.6) while Murray's indicates passivity (43.3)

Note also the bulk of Djoko's UEs being FHs (22/38), while for Murray its the BH (22/39). Another indicator of Djoko being more aggressive

Match starts with a bang as Djokovic breaks to love, but is broken in turn on his first two service games. Murray nurses that one break advantage to take the set, though neither player has it easy to hold. Murray is aggressive in this set - stepping in to attack second serves and also from the baseline

Even so, Djoko is the more aggressive and makes Murray run a lot more than the other way round. Murray defends very well and the result goes his way due to Djoko making UEs from commanding position. Its a sliver of weakness in Djoko's game that you'll rarely see. Lack of finishing touch from commanding positions. Just a rare sliver, mind you

Djoko himself defends stoutly, but isn't under attack to the same degree. Story of first set... great defence from Murray and Djoko unable to nurse command from baseline to win as many points as he'd like

From second set til near the end, its a different story. Djoko cleans up the finishing touch - helped in part by opportune approaches. He continues to be the aggressor. Murray eases up on his own attacks somewhat but its largely forced due to Djoko dominating play. Primarily credit to Djokovic for the dynamic, slight black mark against Murray for being passive

Djoko also has high first serve percentage in this part of the match, making it that much harder for Murray to attack, but Andy does tend to safely return the second serves he does see.

Strong net instincts shown by Djoko. When in command, he comes in to put points to bed. The excellent 74% net points won actually falls right at the end, when he has a nervy finish.... it was even higher for most of the match

Djoko broke to start the 4th and later broke to love to serve for the match at 5-2. Good game from Murray to break back, but there's some nerves from Djoko. He'd double faulted once all match, but does so twice in last 2 service games

There's also lots of drop shots from both players, more from Djoko. Murray loses most of the points he tries the shot on (note Djoko's 6 winners running down drop shots)… primarily credit to Djokovic for that. His movement is not only swift, but he slides and stretches to enhance even that. Good drop shots from Andy, just better running them down and touch to deal by Djoko

Djoko's about 50-50 on drop shot plays. Even if he'd been slightly under 50% on his drop shot plays, I'd say it was a successful ploy. The drop shot keeps Andy honest in his defensive positions... as he falls back with Djoko stepping in to attack, he has to be wary of the drop shot

Murray's footspeed is on par with Djoko, but doesn't quite have sliding down to perfection like the Serb. And of course, those ridiculous plastic man stretching antics that are intrinsic part of Djoko's game

I've stressed that Djoko was the more aggressive player, but its worth pointing out that not only is that no guarantee of being the better but on clay, its more often than not the opposite. The more solid player usually wins. The essence of Djoko's win is that he remains just as solid as Murray while being more aggressive, and that feeds back into the main story of the match. That Djokovic's natural game includes the moderate aggression with which he plays.... but Murray's is a step below and he has to up the ante to match it

Given he was usually being dictated to from the back, it would be an uphill task for Murray to seize control of points, as well as risky. I think he should have tried regardless. By not doing so, he effectively left the match on Djoko's racquet... he would have needed Djokovic to play badly to come out ahead. That's not a good game plan

Summing up, good hard match between two similarly strong, consistent and fleet footed players. Djokovic's just better at doing what they both do - a great performance from him

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Djokovic13 said:

Excellent one mate I was searching for random djokovic French Open stuffs in Google and found this one
Created an account just to view similar threads

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Waspsting said:

though most Djokovic French Open matches I've statt-ted are losses

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Novak Djokovic beats Rafael Nadal in French Open quarter-finals

Novak Djokovic becomes only the second man to beat Rafael Nadal at the French Open with an emphatic victory.

www.bbc.com

AnOctorokForDinner said:

As usual, Djokovic wins by doing everything better than Murray does. Some competition. Not that it's even relevant since Djoko's level was enough to 'validate' his title regardless, but that's not enough to admit it seems.

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