Important article to read-implies college tennis should be 1st sport to go in light of COVID budget cuts

graycrait · Apr 29, 2020

@jcgatennismom , Fabulous post. I am selfish about my local D1 team. It is one of the key reasons I even continue to live in this community. I like my local community's diversity, low cost of living, tremendous growth, significant African American, Asian and Hispanic numbers. Due to close proximity to a large military base there are some added diversity numbers, including youthful population and I am 66. A few years ago I made friends with the local uni coach and spend quite a bit of time playing at the "open to the public" uni courts and their indoor facility. I have made friends with quite a few of the uni players who are mostly internationals. My career in the military afforded me many travel opportunities and chances to live in other cultures. I "love" meeting people from other cultures and viewpoints. My motto is, "agree to disagree." If the uni's tennis program goes away I will lose a key element of the reason why I stay here. I am displaced taking care of aging relatives during the Covid-19 crisis, 700 miles away in a community that is 180 degrees out from where I normally reside. Population is rural parochial, 98% white, over 20years on average older, increasing taxes due to shrinking population and no one I have seen who can hit tennis balls with me on the 4 open public courts in the entire town. You can ride a bike, walk and jog 24/7 here without being run over or accosted. My mother in law rolls her eyes when I tell her I locked the house if we leave for a walk, etc.

However, I selfishly do not want to see my local OVC uni tennis teams disappear in my diverse little universe in Tennessee. I think the writing may be on the wall, but I can be hopeful.

dominikk1985 · Apr 29, 2020

Maybe they will also do it like baseball and put a limit on scholarships to save money. Baseball has like 12 scholarships per team so players usually only get a partial scholarship unless they are top guys

jcgatennismom · Apr 29, 2020

Fabresque said:
Does anyone know how this would affect Division 3 schools?

Division 3 universities receive most of their revenue from tuition and fees. As long as there are spots available in dorms and classes, schools will want to keep enrollment up so they will more than likely cut expenses rather than cutting teams. Sports attract students to college even if many of them will receive discounted tuition via academic/need scholarships. D3 tennis teams tend to have bigger rosters than D1 teams so bring in more enrollment $. The safest sports will be those that have large rosters and lower expenses per athlete. The colleges in the best situation will be those with larger endowments.

Some small private colleges and universities are at risk of closing because even with athletics they are not meeting their enrollment numbers. Higher ed experts predict 15-20% drop in freshmen enrollment for colleges next year. Forbes graded the financial health of private universities last year https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifr...te-colleges-its-merge-or-perish/#122defa6770d Scroll down to college financial grade table and search for your university. Colleges that were graded C- or D last year before pandemic will probably have to do a lot of costcutting and/or fundraising across all university departments to survive and some wont.

Fabresque · Apr 29, 2020

jcgatennismom said:
Division 3 universities receive most of their revenue from tuition and fees. As long as there are spots available in dorms and classes, schools will want to keep enrollment up so they will more than likely cut expenses rather than cutting teams. Sports attract students to college even if many of them will receive discounted tuition via academic/need scholarships. D3 tennis teams tend to have bigger rosters than D1 teams so bring in more enrollment $. The safest sports will be those that have large rosters and lower expenses per athlete. The colleges in the best situation will be those with larger endowments.

Some small private colleges and universities are at risk of closing because even with athletics they are not meeting their enrollment numbers. Higher ed experts predict 15-20% drop in freshmen enrollment for colleges next year. Forbes graded the financial health of private universities last year https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifr...te-colleges-its-merge-or-perish/#122defa6770d Scroll down to college financial grade table and search for your university. Colleges that were graded C- or D last year before pandemic will probably have to do a lot of costcutting and/or fundraising across all university departments to survive and some wont.

We're at a C+, I have no clue what this means but nobody is necessarily worrying at my school.

bluetrain4 · Apr 29, 2020

Will be interesting to see what happens with college sports. The funding that makes it possible for schools to have vast athletic programs and fly even volleyball teams on charter flights (I know, that's not all schools) may fall apart to varying degrees.

bobleenov1963 · May 7, 2020

jcgatennismom said:
@bobleenov1963 @graycrait I have also read Dan Beebe's comments about participation and spectator sports in college. With no athletic scholarships, there would be very few internationals playing and only Americans playing for top academic or flagship in-state schools. NCAA surveys of nonrevenue sports reports athletes spend 30+ hours a week in athletic related activities (the 20 countable rules has a lot of limitations and exclusions). Why would athletes expend 30 hours/week for no athletic dollars unless for a top academic school (athletics as leverage to get in a selective school) or top 30 tennis schools where players believed working with the coach was worth paying to play? They could join a frat or get a PT job instead. Yes, students could still get merit/need scholarships, but if NCAA takes all the scholarships from NCAA D1 and D2, smart players might as well play D3 where they might be able to take fall off for a semester abroad (if those happen anymore...) and have more balance between social, academic, and sports life. Or players would play club instead of varsity at D1 in state schools. There are walk ons now at P5 schools but those are mostly in state players or players with wealthy parents. Some P5 teams who had relied on international players and were based in states with weak jr tennis would no longer be competitive at all.

There are a lot of public schools, esp MM and D2, where 95%+ students are in-state. If nonrevenue sports are changed to participation sports, those unis might be 99%+ in state with a few international basketball players. The student body at those unis would be negatively impacted by the lack of exposure to different cultures and be less prepared to work in a global marketplace. Yes in US cities and affluent suburbs, there is already cultural diversity, but there are colleges in rural America that benefit from drawing international and out-of-state athletes. International students do come to the US to study STEM majors, but they are mostly choosing unis in cities or wellknown unis that are already have a diverse population.

If coaches were poorly paid PT staff, what's the point of paying to play when one's skills wont improve? It would just be high school tennis 2.0. Also most American players enjoy playing with and hanging out with their international teammates Without scholarships and most players only being able to afford in-state, players would end up playing the same players they had played in regional/sectional juniors for years. Many would lose interest.

Luckily Beebe is a former not current conference commissioner. If unis switched to the participation model, they probably would lose all donations from nonrevenue sports alumni. I think it is more likely coaches will take a % cuts, # of matches may be cut, travel reduced, etc. Outside the selective schools that have waiting lists, unis need $ from nonrevenue athletes on partial scholarships who pay something towards tuition, R&B (if on campus). Change the sports model and D1 unis may not hit enrollment quotas. Here is an interesting article from Wake Forest AD-not sure if this one has been posted yet or not.

Currie explained that eliminating a program doesn’t always mean saving money. https://www.greensboro.com/z-no-dig...cle_8fe3207a-1c67-5fab-ad6e-a824e3c6ab06.html

“It also is interesting, though, because many of our sports … they’re partial scholarship sports,” he said. “Many of our sports and many of our student-athletes are either full payers themselves or they’re partial scholarship recipients. In fact, student-athletes at Wake Forest outside of the aid they receive, are paying about $10 million annually to the university for some or all of their tuition cost. Just dropping a sport doesn’t necessarily create a net revenue savings for a school.”

NCAA relaxes D-1 scholarship spending levels

The NCAA approved a waiver that will allow schools to spend below the minimum level on athletic scholarships required to compete in Division I in response to the coronavirus pandemic.

www.espn.com

Just what I expected. They stated the cut will be for one year but the writing is on the wall that will be more permanent. A lot of non-revenue sports scholarships will be cut including tennis.

Karma Tennis · May 8, 2020

bobleenov1963 said:
Just what I expected. They stated the cut will be for one year but the writing is on the wall that will be more permanent. A lot of non-revenue sports scholarships will be cut including tennis.

Does the statement below mean that current student-athletes on Tennis scholarships and student-athletes that have already accepted places for this coming Autumn can expect to compete if it all gets going again this year?

"This waiver does not provide relief from other financial aid rules, including financial aid commitments to prospective and current student-athletes or regulations related to the cancellation or reduction of financial aid,'' the NCAA release said.

Actually, the article linked below seems to answer my questions with a "YES".

Group Of 5 Conferences Get Their Wish: A Reduction In NCAA Division I Scholarship Minimums

Group of 5 and other Division I conferences had also asked for a blanket waiver on minimum number of sports sponsored, but that request was denied by the committee.

www.forbes.com

jcgatennismom · May 8, 2020

Karma Tennis said:
Does the statement below mean that current student-athletes on Tennis scholarships and student-athletes that have already accepted places for this coming Autumn can expect to compete if it all gets going again this year?

"This waiver does not provide relief from other financial aid rules, including financial aid commitments to prospective and current student-athletes or regulations related to the cancellation or reduction of financial aid,'' the NCAA release said.

Actually, the article linked below seems to answer my questions with a "YES".

Group Of 5 Conferences Get Their Wish: A Reduction In NCAA Division I Scholarship Minimums

Group of 5 and other Division I conferences had also asked for a blanket waiver on minimum number of sports sponsored, but that request was denied by the committee.

www.forbes.com

The article says yes, but we have to hope borders will be open, visas processed, and flights available for international students to return. Regular students have to be back on campus for any athletic competitions to happen. If football is cancelled or delayed, universities might eliminate all fall sports for fall '20. It will be interesting for tennis to see what happens in the fall esp with the big tournaments. All American in Tulsa last year had over 500 male competitors for preQ, Qualis, and MD as well as 300-400+ female-dont think as many females signed up for preQ. I wonder if that tourney will still be held and/or if it will be limited to Q and MD or possibly send men and women to different locations. Univ of GA hosts the Southeast Intercollegiate usually in Sept with 20+ schools and probably 150 male players in 6+ draws-that is just a regional tourney but a big one that even sometimes includes some D2 and NAIA teams as well as D1. In mid October ITA Regionals for all 12 regions are held with 64-128 players (men and women separately). The AA, Regionals, and the Oracle tourney in Malibu (1 player from each conference plus WCs-men and women plus mixed) are important for selection to the fall ITA championships in Nov in California. All the big tourneys are on the West Coast/SW USA so I wonder if East Coast players will afford to travel and if the events will be held at all. There is one gold ball tourney in Milwaukee in the fall but that is not as big as the others. The fall is fun because everyone get to play including the bench players of the Power 5s who dont play much in the spring, the midmajor players and even some cross play at some invitationals that include D1, D2, D3, and NAIA; there are also tons of fall invites outside the big tourneys. Fall with individual play is different than spring-hope it still happens. Some of the top players of course play pro tourneys instead in the fall, but everyone else gets a chance to prove themselves in the fall. Each year usually 1-2 guys who start in the rd of 528 in the preQs (plus 8 from Qualis) wins 7 or 8 matches to join the 56 direct acceptances in the MD. Some unknowns or freshmen could earn All American status by reaching QFs of AA.

Another implication of the waiver to reduce scholarships could be if fall classes are online to allow the athletic depts to cut fall room and board scholarships for some athletes out of their budget-mainly the freshmen who live on campus as schools refund costs for on campus living and meal plans if classes online. There would be no net loss of $ to those athletes in that case. Most upperclassmen live off campus so would still need at least the room part of their scholarship if they had signed off campus leases for the year. We all hope classes and sports will be held this fall; I assume most unis will have to make decisions by mid June on whether to reopen in fall.

bobleenov1963 · May 8, 2020

jcgatennismom said:
The article says yes, but we have to hope borders will be open, visas processed, and flights available for international students to return. Regular students have to be back on campus for any athletic competitions to happen. If football is cancelled or delayed, universities might eliminate all fall sports for fall '20.

Keep in mind that the Federal government is in charge of aviation & visa processing while the state is in charge of public universities in its state. You have a situation where Trump, a republican in charge of the Federal government while Gavin Newsom, a democrat, is in charge of California. That will result in a pissing match between Federal intrusion into state right and nothing gets done. This is also an election year so sports like tennis will be in the rear view mirror.

jcgatennismom · May 8, 2020

bobleenov1963 said:
Keep in mind that the Federal government is in charge of aviation & visa processing while the state is in charge of public universities in its state. You have a situation where Trump, a republican in charge of the Federal government while Gavin Newsom, a democrat, is in charge of California. That will result in a pissing match between Federal intrusion into state right and nothing gets done. This is also an election year so sports like tennis will be in the rear view mirror.

There's truth to that. If Trump has his way, probably UK students get in (sizable amount of tennis players), Chinese STEM students (few athletes) wont, and who knows about the rest. California universities (as well as the rest of US) need full pay Chinese, South Korean, and Indian STEM students to help meet their tuition revenue goals. I think India sent us Trumps' favorite hydrochloroquinine so maybe their students will be able to return. It's estimated that at least 25% international students wont return which hurts university bottom lines. Less than 10% of the internationals at US universities are athletes-closer to 5-6%. Too much ego, favoritism, and too little foresight and strategy in recent federal decision making. Both Pelosi and Trump could benefit from reading
All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten: Uncommon Thoughts on Common Things. At times it seems our government is run by mental toddlers in suits. I have been a Republican for years but now I am more of an independent disappointed by both parties.

andfor · May 9, 2020

COVID-19 and Your Health

Symptoms, testing, what to do if sick, daily activities, and more.

www.cdc.gov

I know of a number of international student athletes who stayed stateside and some who went home. Mixed bag and my sample is certainly local to me. Travel may impact incoming freshman internationals more than any. Additionally and even though I can't find a source I do not believe that issuance of visas for international students has or will change during this time. Except for China I hope. The entire situation is certainly remains fluid.

bobleenov1963 · May 9, 2020

andfor said:
COVID-19 and Your Health

Symptoms, testing, what to do if sick, daily activities, and more.

www.cdc.gov

I know of a number of international student athletes who stayed stateside and some who went home. Mixed bag and my sample is certainly local to me. Travel may impact incoming freshman internationals more than any. Additionally and even though I can't find a source I do not believe that issuance of visas for international students has or will change during this time. Except for China I hope. The entire situation is certainly remains fluid.

why single out china? What about Italy, Spain and the UK? There are many covid-19 fatalities in those countries too. Why not restrict traveling from those countries into the US too? Why just china?

You sound like Trump.

andfor · May 9, 2020

bobleenov1963 said:
why single out china? What about Italy, Spain and the UK? There are many covid-19 fatalities in those countries too. Why not restrict traveling from those countries into the US too? Why just china?

You sound like Trump.

I'm talking about permanent China student visa restrictions due to their human rights violations and other nefarious practices. You sound like a Lib.

Here's a site that give more details on current student visa restrictions. I may stand corrected on current restrictions on a country by country basis. That said, I don't know all the detail regarding visas, there's a ton if information related to international travel. Scroll down the page to use the wait time calculator.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/study/student-visa.html

bobleenov1963 · May 9, 2020

andfor said:
I'm talking about permanent China student visa restrictions due to their human rights violations and other nefarious practices. You sound like a Lib.

China human rights violations and nefarious practices have been going on for the past 40 years. Why start china visa restrictions now?

Chinese students that come to the US are full pay and that amount is almost three or four times the amount of an in-state student. Universities are the one that will lose the most if that happen and they will not let that happen. Trump might be talking tough about china but he'll bent over

Just heard from another friend who is working for West Virginia University athletic department office that a lot of people she works within her department and either getting furlough or getting a pay cut. Things will get much worse and not better anytime soon.

Karma Tennis · May 9, 2020

andfor said:
Additionally and even though I can't find a source I do not believe that issuance of visas for international students has or will change during this time. Except for China I hope. The entire situation is certainly remains fluid.

Australia currently has a ban on international travel for all Australian Citizens until further notice. At this point a lot of Australian media outlets are suggesting that ban could remain in place for the rest of 2020 and possibly continue well into 2021. As usual, the Australian Government is permitting some exemptions. But from what I am reading, attending a US College or University is not one of them.

It will be interesting to see what the implications are for Australian students who have received and accepted US College offers for the 2020/20201 year, if they are prevented from travelling to the USA for the rest of this year.

andfor · May 9, 2020

bobleenov1963 said:
China human rights violations and nefarious practices have been going on for the past 40 years. Why start china visa restrictions now?

Chinese students that come to the US are full pay and that amount is almost three or four times the amount of an in-state student. Universities are the one that will lose the most if that happen and they will not let that happen. Trump might be talking tough about china but he'll bent over

Just heard from another friend who is working for West Virginia University athletic department office that a lot of people she works within her department and either getting furlough or getting a pay cut. Things will get much worse and not better anytime soon.

If having to explain why banning Chinese students from attending US colleges and universities should be done, then further discussion likely won't help. Start with the CCP if that helps any.

andfor · May 9, 2020

Karma Tennis said:
Australia currently has a ban on international travel for all Australian Citizens until further notice. At this point a lot of Australian media outlets are suggesting that ban could remain in place for the rest of 2020 and possibly continue well into 2021. As usual, the Australian Government is permitting some exemptions. But from what I am reading, attending a US College or University is not one of them.

It will be interesting to see what the implications are for Australian students who have received and accepted US College offers for the 2020/20201 year, if they are prevented from travelling to the USA for the rest of this year.

Thanks for that information. This may explain why even through Australia is not on the current US ban list from traveling into the U.S., the US.gov travel website shows Visas granted for Australians are currently for Emergency Purposes Only, https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/study/student-visa.html .

jcgatennismom · May 9, 2020

andfor said:
COVID-19 and Your Health

Symptoms, testing, what to do if sick, daily activities, and more.

www.cdc.gov

I know of a number of international student athletes who stayed stateside and some who went home. Mixed bag and my sample is certainly local to me. Travel may impact incoming freshman internationals more than any. Additionally and even though I can't find a source I do not believe that issuance of visas for international students has or will change during this time. Except for China I hope. The entire situation is certainly remains fluid.

Most we know went home-we know more already graduated players who have stayed in the States. It took one player-who fortunately had some relatives in the States-almost 2 months to get home. He'd booked multiple flights that were cancelled. When he finally arrived in his home country (in the Southern Hemisphere where there have been fewer cases), he was escorted from the gate by police and driven to a hotel where he has to quarantine for 14 days. I believe there were other from the flight-not students-also taken directly into quarantine. Now that the US has the most cases, countries will make it hard for anyone who has been in the US to return without quarantining first.

bobleenov1963 · May 9, 2020

andfor said:
If having to explain why banning Chinese students from attending US colleges and universities should be done, then further discussion likely won't help. Start with the CCP if that helps any.

That will NEVER happen. Colleges and Universities will lose a major revenue stream from full pay chinese students. They will not let that happen. There are rules and there are way to work around those rules. Do you know lot of pregnant Chinese women come to the US to give birth so that their babies have automatically US Citizenship, right? There are so many places to accommodate them in California.

Just heard on ESPN that University of Wisconsin has asked people in the athletic department to take a 15% pay cut and they also have some layoffs. Tennis and non-revenue sports will definitely take a big hit. It is just the beginning.

Karma Tennis · May 9, 2020

jcgatennismom said:
Most we know went home-we know more already graduated players who have stayed in the States. It took one player-who fortunately had some relatives in the States-almost 2 months to get home. He'd booked multiple flights that were cancelled. When he finally arrived in his home country (in the Southern Hemisphere where there have been fewer cases), he was escorted from the gate by police and driven to a hotel where he has to quarantine for 14 days. I believe there were other from the flight-not students-also taken directly into quarantine. Now that the US has the most cases, countries will make it hard for anyone who has been in the US to return without quarantining first.

Yes, we know of several players who returned to Australia in March and April who underwent the 14 Day Isolation. One player was in the air over the Pacific when the Australian Government announced the mandatory Isolation process. Had the player arrived back in Australia 24 hours earlier, they would not have been subjected to the Government imposed Isolation process. (They would have been asked to Self Isolate at home.)

BTW, I'm not sure if you are talking about Australia. I can assure you that everyone who arrived back in Australia after the mandatory Isolation process was announced were treated with the utmost of care by the Australian authorities and Health Care officials from the moment they landed, to the moment they left Isolation 14 days later.

Many would not realise, one reason SARS-CoV-2 spread so quickly in Australia was due to keeping the borders open from Europe and the USA for way to long in the interests of being loyal to its Allies. It has been estimated that about 70% of the infections in Australia can be traced back to people returning from Europe and the USA who were not Isolated for 14 Days.

Australia is currently in the (relatively) good situation it is with this virus because the Governments here closed the Borders reasonably quickly. And the 14 Day Isolation process that has been implemented has worked very effectively to this point.

And as I mentioned prev., given the current circumstances here, it is very unlikely that International Travel will resume until 2021 at the earliest except in exceptional circumstances. In those cases where Australians are permitted to leave Australia, they will have to go through the 14 Day Isolation process on their return. (So if the Destination Country also imposes a 14 Day Isolation, Australians who do travel overseas and return will have to spend 28 Days in Isolation.)

bobleenov1963 said:
Just heard on ESPN that University of Wisconsin has asked people in the athletic department to take a 15% pay cut and they also have some layoffs. Tennis and non-revenue sports will definitely take a big hit. It is just the beginning.

Tennis Australia is already preparing the Australian public for the possibility the 2021 Australian Open will be staged in front of the Australian Public only. (And any International players would have to undergo 14 Day mandatory Isolation prior to competing. That could be a huge disincentive for the Top players to come and compete here. Even more so if they have to isolate again once they travel to their next destination.).

Tennis Australia has also used the current hiatus to completely review and radically overhaul its existing Player Development Programs. A lot of National Coaches have been let go in the process. However, many people associated with tennis here (especially parents of junior players) will probably say this overhaul was long overdue and will end up significantly benefiting local players and the sport in general in Australia

Collegetennisrules · May 13, 2020

bobleenov1963 said:
That's exactly what I am referring to. So you are saying it is OK to take revenue from FB and BB to subsidize other sports at the universities when the graduation for AA FB and BB is dismal. Those athletes need help the most and it cost money. They make money for the universities and a big chunk of that money is being to subsidize other sports. and the overwhelming majority of the non-revenue sports are non-AA athletes. It is a version of modern day plantation if you ask me.

There are rules in the NCAA rule book about low graduation rate but there are also ways to "work-around" the rules to avoid getting in trouble. Most Unversities are doing exactly just that. My company does some lobbying works with the US government and the government has the rule forbidding lawmakers from having accepting gifts from lobbyists for things like letting lobbyists paying meals at expensive restaurants, sitting down. You know how lobbyists get around the rule. They have meals at the bar which does not apply by this rule. I hope you get it. The NCAA is very much like the US house or US Senate ethic committee where they police themselves. It is like asking a thief to be honest.

That's absolutely FALSE. You should watch HBO Real Sport and see that some injured athletes go on government Medicaid after their NCAA healthcare coverage stops. About purchasing the NCAA additional insurance options, well, tell that to AA kids who come from poor background and housing projects. How can they purchase additional insurance options if they do not have money? The schools could have purchased additional insurances for them with revenues from FB and BB but the schools rather spend that money on non-revenue sports and athletes. Is that fair to you?

Do you really feel sorry for Div 1 athletes getting a free education? Plus all the extra benefits. Cry me a river.

andfor · May 13, 2020

Collegetennisrules said:
Do you really feel sorry for Div 1 athletes getting a free education? Plus all the extra benefits. Cry me a river.

He does, and he'll be back here to let you know. He thinks only money making sports should be allowed in college and all the players get paid like pros. All non-money making sports be club activities only.

Karma Tennis · Jun 24, 2020

Karma Tennis said:
And as I mentioned prev., given the current circumstances here, it is very unlikely that International Travel will resume until 2021 at the earliest except in exceptional circumstances

Further to this. The CEO of QANTAS has today announced the company is cutting 6,000 jobs (20% of its workforce) permanently and standing down and additional 15,000 employees. He has articulated the belief that QANTAS will not be flying to international destinations before July 2021.

This, in itself, doesn't mean Australian US College recruits wouldn't be able to travel to the USA - assuming they received an exemption from the current Government Travel Bans. But it is an indication of the fragility of Australians travelling to international destinations for the for-seeable future.

(Ironically, most of QANTAS's Long Haul Aircraft (Airbus A380s) are currently in storage parked at a facility in the Mojave Desert!)

MarTennis · Jun 27, 2020

NoChance said:
If I am an AD, and I want to keep my tennis team(s), but need to cut costs, I'd be putting a pretty strong limit on number of fall tournaments, and distances traveled. Come January, there would be a travel limit to non-conference matches, and I'd be putting the kibosh on spring break trips. But hey, I don't have to make those decisions, thankfully.

When the P5 mega-conferences came to be, travel costs exploded. Nebraska and Rutgers in the same conference? Baylor and West Virginia in the same conference? Wow. Glad I'm not coaching nor playing.

I pray that this is the interim move or solution for California schools. Plenty of D1 colleges in the state with no need to fly. I'll drive!! Go Dogs!

Important article to read-implies college tennis should be 1st sport to go in light of COVID budget cuts

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