There is no rule saying a player who hits somebody MUST be disqualified

jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Every time an incident like this happens, we have people chiming in saying or implying that the rules say a player must be immediately disqualified if they hit someone else on court. Dura lex, sed lex, they say. But this is not actually true. It's just so often repeated by fans and commentators that people think it is.

To anyone claiming a player must be disqualified if they hit someone, I challenge you to find and quote the exact rule in the rulebook that says that. I'll even provide the rulebooks for you:
Let's see what the rules actually say. Relevant sections:

N. ABUSE OF BALLS

Players shall not violently, dangerously or with anger hit, kick or throw a tennis ball within the precincts of the tournament site except in the reasonable pursuit of a point during a match (including warm-up).
Violation of this Section shall subject a player to fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warmup) the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth.
For the purposes of this Rule, abuse of balls is defined as intentionally hitting a ball out of the enclosure of the court, hitting a ball dangerously or recklessly within the court or hitting a ball with negligent disregard of the consequences.

Q. PHYSICAL ABUSE

Players shall not at any time physically abuse any official, opponent, spectator or other person within the precincts of the tournament site.
Violation of this Section shall subject a player to a fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warmup), the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, a single violation of this Section shall also constitute the Major Offence of “Aggravated Behaviour” and shall be subject to the additional penalties hereinafter set forth.
For the purposes of this Rule, physical abuse is the unauthorised touching of an official, opponent, spectator or other person.

The player shall be penalized according to the Point Penalty Schedule. This is what the Point Penalty Schedule mandates:

S. POINT PENALTY SCHEDULE

The Point Penalty Schedule to be used for violations set forth above is as follows:

FIRST offence: WARNING
SECOND offence: POINT PENALTY
THIRD AND EACH SUBSEQUENT offence: GAME PENALTY

However, after the third Code Violation, the Referee in consultation with the Grand Slam Chief of Supervisors shall determine whether each subsequent offence shall constitute a default.

In cases of a particularly egregious offense, tournament referee MAY choose to default the player (section T of the code). So this is a judgement call; as it should be.
 
Last edited:
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
jm1980 said:
Every time an incident like this happens, we have people chiming in saying or implying that the rules say a player must be immediately disqualified if they hit someone else on court. This is not actually true, but it's so often repeated by fans and commentators that people think it is. Let's see what the rules actually say. Relevant sections:

N. ABUSE OF BALLS

Players shall not violently, dangerously or with anger hit, kick or throw a tennis ball within the precincts of the tournament site except in the reasonable pursuit of a point during a match (including warm-up).
Violation of this Section shall subject a player to fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warmup) the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth.
For the purposes of this Rule, abuse of balls is defined as intentionally hitting a ball out of the enclosure of the court, hitting a ball dangerously or recklessly within the court or hitting a ball with negligent disregard of the consequences.

Q. PHYSICAL ABUSE

Players shall not at any time physically abuse any official, opponent, spectator or other person within the precincts of the tournament site.
Violation of this Section shall subject a player to a fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warmup), the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, a single violation of this Section shall also constitute the Major Offence of “Aggravated Behaviour” and shall be subject to the additional penalties hereinafter set forth.
For the purposes of this Rule, physical abuse is the unauthorised touching of an official, opponent, spectator or other person.

The player shall be penalized according to the Point Penalty Schedule. This is what the Point Penalty Schedule mandates:

S. POINT PENALTY SCHEDULE

The Point Penalty Schedule to be used for violations set forth above is as follows:

FIRST offence: WARNING
SECOND offence: POINT PENALTY
THIRD AND EACH SUBSEQUENT offence: GAME PENALTY

However, after the third Code Violation, the Referee in consultation with the Grand Slam Chief of Supervisors shall determine whether each subsequent offence shall constitute a default.

In cases of a particularly egregious offense, the chair umpire or tournament referee MAY choose default the player (section T of the code). So this is and always has been a judgement call; as it should be.

Rulebook: https://www.itftennis.com/media/2495/grand-slam-rulebook-2020-f.pdf
Click to expand...
clam-eating-salt-on-table
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
For those who point out the Nalbandian or Shapovalov incidents, I will leave the videos here. Hopefully you can appreciate the difference between what they did, and what happened here

Shapovalov hit a ball at 80-90 mph straight into the umpire's eye socket. He had to go to the hospital:

Nalbandian kicked a wooden board loose, hitting the linesman on the shin, drawing blood:

And what happened here:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302700998360797185
 
Last edited:
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
jm1980 said:
For those who point out the Nalbandian or Shapovalov incidents, I will leave the videos here. Hopefully you can appreciate the difference between what they did, and what happened here

Shapovalov hit a ball at 80-90 mph straight into the umpire's eye socket. He had to go to the hospital:

Nalbandian kicked a wooden board loose, hitting the linesman on the shin, drawing blood:

And what happened here:
Click to expand...
The woman did fall to the ground though. And the throat is a sensitive area too.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
a10best said:
Perhaps you ahosul phone in to the USTA or ATP and former players and let them know they missed it.
Goats don't hurt lineswoman. He's an abuser & wanted special treatment.
Vamos.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying the rule was misapplied here -- it is a judgement call, so the tournament referee had the right to make that call and disqualify him

I'm just here to dispel the notion that a rule mandating immediate disqualification exists
 
Last edited:
Z

zaph

Professional
Henman did something similar at Wimbledon, when he was defaulted from a mixed doubles match for accidentally hitting a ballgirl with a ball. There is precedent for this.

Djokovic is a professional and should have known better. One of the things I like about tennis is no player, however big they are, is above the rules and bigger than the sport.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
ND-13 said:
You go down a slippery slope if you start taking judgement calls. This needs to be BLACK and WHITE.
Click to expand...
It always has to be a judgement call. For example, if a player empties his pockets after his service game and one of the balls accidentally hits a linesperson, do they need to be disqualified?

Conversely, if a player deliberately tries to hit a linesperson with a ball, but they happen to dodge it, is the player a-okay?

It can't be black and white
 
droliver

droliver

Professional
No, there was not much discretion to avoid a DQ here. He deliberately hit a ball in anger and inadvertantly struck an official. The players all know this to be a DQ and it's happened a number of times before, most notably Tim Henman playing at Wimbledon and Denis Shapalov in Davis Cup

 
a10best

a10best

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
I don't actually think he wanted special treatment. They may have even been considering letting him off the hook, and it seems like Djokovic voluntarily called for them to disqualify him

I'm not saying the rule was misapplied here -- it is a judgement call, so the tournament referee had the right to make that call and disqualify him

I'm just here to dispel the notion that a rule mandating immediate disqualification exists
Click to expand...
If she was not hurt, it would be nothing. What are the odds of a medium ball like that hitting you in the throat at the proper angle that it hurts you. It wasn't meant to be. His road to 21 slams is getting tougher as he gets older and the NexGen gets better and more confident.
Thiem is right there on the edge, barely lost in AU 2020, and Zev looks strong. We know Medvedev is more than ready and also on the cusp.
 
J

jeroenn

Semi-Pro
jm1980 said:
, and it seems like Djokovic voluntarily called for them to disqualify him
Click to expand...

I don't know where you got this from? Here are some of his quotes during his discussion with the officials:

"She doesn't have to go to the hospital for this." -Djokovic trying to downplay the effects of hitting the lineswoman, saying she wasn't seriously injured. Djokovic continuining: "You're going to choose a default in this situation? My career, grand slam, center stage"
Djokovic is desperately negotiating now: "You have a game penalty, set penalty, many options."
Djokovic continues to plead: "If she would have gotten up right away..."
 
C

croissant92

New User
jm1980 said:
Every time an incident like this happens, we have people chiming in saying or implying that the rules say a player must be immediately disqualified if they hit someone else on court. This is not actually true, but it's so often repeated by fans and commentators that people think it is. Let's see what the rules actually say. Relevant sections:

N. ABUSE OF BALLS

Players shall not violently, dangerously or with anger hit, kick or throw a tennis ball within the precincts of the tournament site except in the reasonable pursuit of a point during a match (including warm-up).
Violation of this Section shall subject a player to fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warmup) the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth.
For the purposes of this Rule, abuse of balls is defined as intentionally hitting a ball out of the enclosure of the court, hitting a ball dangerously or recklessly within the court or hitting a ball with negligent disregard of the consequences.

Q. PHYSICAL ABUSE

Players shall not at any time physically abuse any official, opponent, spectator or other person within the precincts of the tournament site.
Violation of this Section shall subject a player to a fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warmup), the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, a single violation of this Section shall also constitute the Major Offence of “Aggravated Behaviour” and shall be subject to the additional penalties hereinafter set forth.
For the purposes of this Rule, physical abuse is the unauthorised touching of an official, opponent, spectator or other person.

The player shall be penalized according to the Point Penalty Schedule. This is what the Point Penalty Schedule mandates:

S. POINT PENALTY SCHEDULE

The Point Penalty Schedule to be used for violations set forth above is as follows:

FIRST offence: WARNING
SECOND offence: POINT PENALTY
THIRD AND EACH SUBSEQUENT offence: GAME PENALTY

However, after the third Code Violation, the Referee in consultation with the Grand Slam Chief of Supervisors shall determine whether each subsequent offence shall constitute a default.

In cases of a particularly egregious offense, the chair umpire or tournament referee MAY choose default the player (section T of the code). So this is and always has been a judgement call; as it should be.

Rulebook: https://www.itftennis.com/media/2495/grand-slam-rulebook-2020-f.pdf
Click to expand...
Its funny I found the same page and came to the same conclusion myself, posted it elsewhere in a thread. Definitely agree with your points, its not black and white in the rules. I'm no fan of Novak but think it is worth pointing out this is a gray zone. I don't like his attitude, but default seems harsh to me.
 
Raul_SJ

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
jm1980 said:
I don't actually think he wanted special treatment. They may have even been considering letting him off the hook, and it seems like Djokovic voluntarily called for them to disqualify him
Click to expand...

There is no way Djoker voluntarily asked for DQ. It was obviously not intentional.

Guessing officials immediately DQed and Djoker was pleading his case.

This stupid inflexible rule will be changed going forward to allow for discretion and judgement to be applied.
 
Last edited:
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Of course I get responses like this

I'm here to dispel the myth the rules mandate a disqualification for hitting someone for any reason. No such rule exists.

It's a judgement call whether or not the player gets DQ'd for something like this. In this case, it could have gone either way if the lineswoman didn't react the way she did.
Phoenix1983 said:
Oh FFS, you're fast becoming one of the most intolerable of all the Novak Djokovic fans.

Why can't you just accept he did something wrong?
Click to expand...
tenisdecente said:
When you have the same class as your idol, these theads appear....

picard-facepalm.jpg
Click to expand...
PilotPete said:
Interesting, neither Novak or his fans get it. Not surprising.
Click to expand...
Mark-Touch said:
Are you going to lodge a formal complaint with the ATP?
Click to expand...
 
N

ND-13

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
It always has to be a judgement call. For example, if a player empties his pockets after his service game and one of the balls accidentally hits a linesperson, do they need to be disqualified?

Conversely, if a player deliberately tries to hit a linesperson with a ball, but they happen to dodge it, is the player a-okay?

It can't be black and white
Click to expand...

The question here is simple when someone is hurt. Is there intent ? Is there recklessness ? If any one of the answer is YES, then you are gone.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Raul_SJ said:
There is no way Djoker asked for DQ.
This stupid inflexible rule will be changed going forward to allow discretion and judgement to be used.
Click to expand...
Read the original post. The rule already allows for discretion and judgement to be used.

In this case, the apparent harm (with the lineswoman falling down) forced the tournament referee's hand to go with the disqualification
 
P

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
Of course I get responses like this

I'm here to dispel the myth the rules mandate a disqualification for hitting someone for any reason. No such rule exists.

It's a judgement call whether or not the player gets DQ'd for something like this. In this case, it could have gone either way if the lineswoman didn't react the way she did.
Click to expand...

That you try to contrast what Djokovic did to what Shapo did means you just don't get it.
 
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
Of course I get responses like this

I'm here to dispel the myth the rules mandate a disqualification for hitting someone for any reason. No such rule exists.

It's a judgement call whether or not the player gets DQ'd for something like this. In this case, it could have gone either way if the lineswoman didn't react the way she did.
Click to expand...

I just wonder how you would react if this would have happened to "the swiss that should not be named" and "the spanish guy who likes to pick his butt".
No need to answer, I dont think you will open any thread about it
 
Raul_SJ

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
jm1980 said:
Read the original post. The rule already allows for discretion and judgement to be used.

In this case, the apparent harm (with the lineswoman falling down) forced the tournament referee's hand to go with the disqualification
Click to expand...

Don't see how this lineswoman was harmed. She fell because she is unfit and weak. Or she is overacting.
She deserves an Academy Award.
 
Terenigma

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
I read the same rules as OP did and have already addressed this in the other thread and i did not come to the same conclusion. Simply put, they have the option to default someone for a violation of the rules or they can give them the typical 3 warnings that we all know and then make the default choice from there on depending on the umpires/supervisors decision.

However with that said, certain things are clearly too much. Would people defend it if a player suddenly pulled down their shorts and showed their genitals? Would that be worthy of a default or a warning? If a player flipping off the crowd and calling them rude names, would that constitute a default or a warning? Physical abuse is clearly addressed in the rules and the severity of that violation is judged by the umpire/supervisor and Djokovic intentional or not, hit the ball no way near the ballkid, clearly hit it harder than your typical ball removal and previously that match had done the same thing but luckily avoided hitting anyone but this time he hit the lineswoman in the throat.

To me that decision was clear and right. The rules may not demand the default but it is perfectly within the rules to default him and they should have.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
PilotPete said:
That you try to contrast what Djokovic did to what Shapo did means you just don't get it.
Click to expand...
There is a spectrum, yes? From what Shapo did, to a player emptying his pockets and a ball gently touching a linesperson. What Djokovic did falls somewhere in between these extremes.

There is a line somewhere in between those where you go for a DQ. Was that line crossed here? It's a judgement call. The lineswoman reacted like she was badly hurt, so the default became inevitable.
 
sredna42

sredna42

Hall of Fame

the Nadal hits child in the head with angry and unrealistic ROS attempt, the ball REALLY hitting her in the head HARD.

Nothing happens for the Mutant. No DQ. No fine.
Same as nothing happens when everyone knows he is on enought PED's to kill an elephant.

LOL at how the little girl didn't go down after that brutal hit, yet that vile old karen went down like Simo Hayha shot her, then put on a ridiculous and kamp expression of fear.
 
P

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
There is a spectrum, yes? From what Shapo did, to a player emptying his pockets and a ball gently touching a linesperson. What Djokovic did falls somewhere in between these extremes.

There is a line somewhere in between those where you go for a DQ. Was that line crossed here? It's a judgement call. The lineswoman reacted like she was badly hurt, so the default became inevitable.
Click to expand...

Nope, Bedene should have been disqualified too. Nothing that Novak did was gentle, he hit the ball hard out of frustration. Before you come in with it wasn't hard, tell that to the woman who couldn't breathe for moments and was knocked to the ground.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
tenisdecente said:
I just wonder how you would react if this would have happened to "the swiss that should not be named" and "the spanish guy who likes to pick his butt".
No need to answer, I dont think you will open any thread about it
Click to expand...
This is one the few issues I'm particularly passionate about, because every time something like this happens, many users will say "well, the rules say DQ" without actually reading the rules

My need to correct people on this is actually stronger than my dislike for Fed. I would have made the same thread, 100%
 
ohiostate124

ohiostate124

Professional
jm1980 said:
For those who point out the Nalbandian or Shapovalov incidents, I will leave the videos here. Hopefully you can appreciate the difference between what they did, and what happened here

Shapovalov hit a ball at 80-90 mph straight into the umpire's eye socket. He had to go to the hospital:

Nalbandian kicked a wooden board loose, hitting the linesman on the shin, drawing blood:

And what happened here:
Click to expand...
There is no difference. None of the players here intentionally hit the person. The injury to the person or lack there of is irrelevent.
 
Terenigma

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
sredna42 said:
the Nadal hits child in the head with angry and unrealistic ROS attempt, the ball REALLY hitting her in the head HARD.
Nothing happens. No DQ. No fine.

LOL at how the little girl didn't go down after that brutal hit, yet that vile old karen went down like Simo Hayha shot her, then put on a ridiculous and kamp expression of fear.
Click to expand...

If you can't see the difference between that incident and the Djokovic one then there is no helping you. His was from a return in the middle of a point, Djokovic was outside of a point, in fustration. Althrough i will agree with you on that last point, she went down like a sack of bricks in the best acting i have seen in years.
 
R

RVAtennisaddict

Professional
Terenigma said:
I read the same rules as OP did and have already addressed this in the other thread and i did not come to the same conclusion. Simply put, they have the option to default someone for a violation of the rules or they can give them the typical 3 warnings that we all know and then make the default choice from there on depending on the umpires/supervisors decision.

However with that said, certain things are clearly too much. Would people defend it if a player suddenly pulled down their shorts and showed their genitals? Would that be worthy of a default or a warning? If a player flipping off the crowd and calling them rude names, would that constitute a default or a warning? Physical abuse is clearly addressed in the rules and the severity of that violation is judged by the umpire/supervisor and Djokovic intentional or not, hit the ball no way near the ballkid, clearly hit it harder than your typical ball removal and previously that match had done the same thing but luckily avoided hitting anyone but this time he hit the lineswoman in the throat.

To me that decision was clear and right. The rules may not demand the default but it is perfectly within the rules to default him and they should have.
Click to expand...

Ask Kyrgios. He flipped off and cursed. No dq. Yes a fine. Later. after the match.

Just bad example.


I don’t think action warranted dq (and theses same lines people get hit by big 120-150mph serves all the time) but think because it Djokovic you have to dq so as not to seem preferential.
 
Z

zipplock

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
Read the original post. The rule already allows for discretion and judgement to be used.

In this case, the apparent harm (with the lineswoman falling down) forced the tournament referee's hand to go with the disqualification
Click to expand...
Fight the good fight @jm1980 , the one that calls for critical thinking and context.
 
fedfan08

fedfan08

Professional
sredna42 said:

the Nadal hits child in the head with angry and unrealistic ROS attempt, the ball REALLY hitting her in the head HARD.

Nothing happens for the Mutant. No DQ. No fine.
Same as nothing happens when everyone knows he is on enought PED's to kill an elephant.

LOL at how the little girl didn't go down after that brutal hit, yet that vile old karen went down like Simo Hayha shot her, then put on a ridiculous and kamp expression of fear.
Click to expand...
You can’t compare. This was a return of serve. A serve that was called out AFTER Nadal hit is return.
 
Raul_SJ

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
jm1980 said:
to a player emptying his pockets and a ball gently touching a linesperson.
Click to expand...

Djoker emptied out the first ball perfectly straight to the ballkid and hit the second ball straight to her.

How did Djoker miss that badly? :unsure:

But Djoker's intention was to hit the second ball to the ballkid, correct? That is the normal procedure?

Or do line judges also look out for/sometimes catch balls?
 
a10best

a10best

Hall of Fame
man up, take responsibility and stop whining.
Some here act as if they drafted ATP & USTA rules and are expert interpreters of how it should be applied.
If she wasn't hurt and helped off, it would probably be a game penalty but she was so a default is warranted, so let's move on.
 
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
This is one the few issues I'm particularly passionate about, because every time something like this happens, many users will say "well, the rules say DQ" without actually reading the rules

My need to correct people on this is actually stronger than my dislike for Fed. I would have made the same thread, 100%
Click to expand...

Good story, misses a couple of zombies, a GOAT and a bit of pot, but still good!
 
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