TTW War: Fed at Hamburg/Madrid or Djokovic at Rome?

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Third Serve

Third Serve

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For the sake of argument, let's leave out Fed's blue clay title in 2012. Tough to compare.

Hamburg, for the uninitiated, is the clay Masters that held a role as one of the three clay Masters up until 2009, when it was demoted to a 500 and Madrid switched to clay and took over it's slot. Fed won four titles there and the very first Madrid (clay) Masters in 2009. So five in that slot if we take out blue clay (which is still valuable in itself; I just want to focus on red clay for now). Djokovic has five Rome Masters.

Fed Hamburg/Madrid draws (note that some didn't have byes):
Ned wins bolded.

Hamburg 2002: Lapentti, Ulihrach, Voinea, Kuerten, Mirnyi, Safin
Hamburg 2004: Gaudio, Lapentti, Gonzalez, Moya, Hewitt, Coria
Hamburg 2005: Verdasco, Berdych, Robredo, Coria, Davydenko, Gasquet
Hamburg 2007: Monaco, Ferrero, Ferrer, Moya, Nadal
Madrid 2009: Soderling, Blake, Roddick, Del Potro, Nadal

Also lost in 2008 Hamburg final to Nadal (a match he should have won) and 2010 Madrid to Nadal (a match in which Ned was clearly the better player)

Nole Rome draws:

Rome 2008: Darcis, Andreev, Almagro (RET), Stepanek (RET), Wawrinka.
Rome 2011: Kubot, Wawrinka, Soderling, Murray, Nadal.
Rome 2014: Stepanek, Kohlschreiber, Ferrer, Raonic, Nadal.
Rome 2015: Almagro, Belucci, Nishikori, Ferrer, Federer.
Rome 2020: Caruso, Krajinovic, Koepfer, Ruud, Schwartzman.

Also lost 2009 to Nadal, 2012 to Nadal, 2016 to Murray, 2017 to Zverev, and 2019 to Nadal again.

Better overall career?

Better title wins?

War is beginning. Fedovic divided.
 
D

Deleted member 748597

Guest
Third Serve said:
That's all well and good, but we all know the real GOAT candidates need the Olympics Gold Medal. Preferably two.
Click to expand...
tumblr_ntnb0rbvMb1ud7c32o2_250.gifv
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Third Serve said:
For the sake of argument, let's leave out Fed's blue clay title in 2012. Tough to compare.

Hamburg, for the uninitiated, is the clay Masters that held a role as one of the three clay Masters up until 2009, when it was demoted to a 500 and Madrid switched to clay and took over it's slot. Fed won four titles there and the very first Madrid (clay) Masters in 2009. So five in that slot if we take out blue clay (which is still valuable in itself; I just want to focus on red clay for now). Djokovic has five Rome Masters.

Fed Hamburg/Madrid draws (note that some didn't have byes):
Ned wins bolded.

Hamburg 2002: Lapentti, Ulihrach, Voinea, Kuerten, Mirnyi, Safin
Hamburg 2004: Gaudio, Lapentti, Gonzalez, Moya, Hewitt, Coria
Hamburg 2005: Verdasco, Berdych, Robredo, Coria, Davydenko, Gasquet
Hamburg 2007: Monaco, Ferrero, Ferrer, Moya, Nadal
Madrid 2009: Soderling, Blake, Roddick, Del Potro, Nadal

Also lost in 2008 Hamburg final to Nadal (a match he should have won) and 2010 Madrid to Nadal (a match in which Ned was clearly the better player)

Nole Rome draws:

Rome 2008: Darcis, Andreev, Almagro (RET), Stepanek (RET), Wawrinka.
Rome 2011: Kubot, Wawrinka, Soderling, Murray, Nadal.
Rome 2014: Stepanek, Kohlschreiber, Ferrer, Raonic, Nadal.
Rome 2015: Almagro, Belucci, Nishikori, Ferrer, Federer.
Rome 2020: Caruso, Krajinovic, Koepfer, Ruud, Schwartzman.

Also lost 2009 to Nadal, 2012 to Nadal, 2016 to Murray, 2017 to Zverev, and 2019 to Nadal again.

Better overall career?

Better title wins?

War is beginning. Fedovic divided.
Click to expand...

Nadal was exhausted in the final of Madrid 2009.
Does that count too?
:)
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
DSH said:
Nadal was exhausted in the final of Madrid 2009.
Does that count too?
:)
Click to expand...
He actually played his usual game in that final, I believe (and @Waspsting pointed out in his analysis). It wasn’t that he was bad, it’s just that he wasn’t particularly imposing. And Fed was really mixing up play in that match; it was like he was playing on a hard court.
 
JaoSousa

JaoSousa

Hall of Fame
Third Serve said:
He actually played his usual game in that final, I believe (and @Waspsting pointed out in his analysis). It wasn’t that he was bad, it’s just that he wasn’t particularly imposing. And Fed was really mixing up play in that match; it was like he was playing on a hard court.
Click to expand...
Nadal's quality of play in the SF is massively overrated. The only reason it was so long is because Nadal was dropping forehands in the service box, and he was still moving very well. After 2009 FO, I have never seen him move like that again.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

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JaoSousa said:
Nadal's quality of play in the SF is massively overrated. The only reason it was so long is because Nadal was dropping forehands in the service box, and he was still moving very well. After 2009 FO, I have never seen him move like that again.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I noticed that too. Deffo the movement that was keeping him in the match for sure. It was a great match because both players were very evenly matched, but neither was in what we’d call superb form.
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Third Serve said:
He actually played his usual game in that final, I believe (and @Waspsting pointed out in his analysis). It wasn’t that he was bad, it’s just that he wasn’t particularly imposing. And Fed was really mixing up play in that match; it was like he was playing on a hard court.
Click to expand...

Don't you see any parallels between Nadal's victory in the 2009 Madrid semifinals and Federer's victory in the 2012 London Olympic Games semifinals and what it meant for both of them to play the final of those tournaments with nothing left in the tank?
:sneaky:
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
DSH said:
Don't you see any parallels between Nadal's victory in the 2009 Madrid semifinals and Federer's victory in the 2012 London Olympic Games semifinals and what it meant for both of them to play the final of those tournaments with nothing left in the tank?
:sneaky:
Click to expand...
Ned still had something left in the tank while Fed was a little worse for wear. 23 year olds tend to recover a bit quicker than 31 year olds (plus Fed had the longer match), if I’m not mistaken. The difference in the scorelines attest to both 2012 Fed’s greater fatigue and Murray’s slightly better level than 2009 Fed.
 
JaoSousa

JaoSousa

Hall of Fame
DSH said:
Nadal was exhausted in the final of Madrid 2009.
Does that count too?
:)
Click to expand...
Nadal served at 80%. He wasn't as imposing with his game as he usually is, but in my opinion, he displayed a similar level to what he did through the tournament. Federer had more errors and more winners because he mixed it up and played much different than Djokovic.

But yes, Nadal wasn't moving as well as he did in the SF
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
JaoSousa said:
Nadal served at 80%. He wasn't as imposing with his game as he usually is, but in my opinion, he displayed a similar level to what he did through the tournament. Federer had more errors and more winners because he mixed it up and played much different than Djokovic.

But yes, Nadal wasn't moving as well as he did in the SF
Click to expand...

That is understatement!
Nadal was a shadow of his old self after that brutal semifinal.
RG 2009 was an example of that, in fact his level dropped considerably until the end of that season.
:(
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
I’d probably say Fed has the better title wins by virtue of not having draws like 2008 and 2020 Rome, but Djoker’s had the better overall record at Rome due to making more finals.
 
AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic has better longevity but Federer has more wins (begone with this blue clay doesn't count lol) and better top losses.

Both beat Nadal twice for the title. Federer's three losses to Nadal (08, 10, 11) were all more competitive than Djokovic's (07, 09, 12, 18, 19). His draws were stronger given Djo's 08/20 runs not facing top ten players. The fact Djokovic's top losses were typically not close (07, 16, 17) or only close for one set (09, 12, 18, 19) is significant. The two close losses were against Verdasco and Berdych, the latter after failing to serve out the match.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Djokovic has better longevity but Federer has more wins (begone with this blue clay doesn't count lol) and better top losses.

Both beat Nadal twice for the title. Federer's three losses to Nadal (08, 10, 11) were all more competitive than Djokovic's (07, 09, 12, 18, 19). His draws were stronger given Djo's 08/20 runs not facing top ten players. The fact Djokovic's top losses were typically not close (07, 16, 17) or only close for one set (09, 12, 18, 19) is significant. The two close losses were against Verdasco and Berdych, the latter after failing to serve out the match.
Click to expand...
Only wanted to focus on red clay. I almost consider 2012 Madrid to be a completely different Masters tournament. I believe Madrid Indoors and Shanghai should be considered separate tournaments for similar reasons (even though they occupy the same slot) -- two different conditions.

With Hamburg and red clay Madrid, the differences are not so easily noticeable. In fact, both tend to favor attacking play more than the other clay tournaments.
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic for me,I think.

But I have only watched two matches of Federer at Hamburg: 2008 F, 2007 F,of Madrid 2009 F and 2011 SF are the ones I watched.

And even though he lost 2008, that was crazy good level. 2007 F was pretty good too. Madrid 2011 SF was an awesome match.

But Djokovic just because of 2011 SF and F (Murray match is one of the GOAT BO3 match) at Rome.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

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ForehandCross said:
Djokovic for me,I think.

But I have only watched two matches of Federer at Hamburg: 2008 F, 2007 F,of Madrid 2009 F and 2011 SF are the ones I watched.

And even though he lost 2008, that was crazy good level. 2007 F was pretty good too. Madrid 2011 SF was an awesome match.

But Djokovic just because of 2011 SF and F (Murray match is one of the GOAT BO3 match) at Rome.
Click to expand...
You should really consider watching Hamburg 2002 and 2004-2005 if you liked what you saw in those matches. He brought at least as good of a level in those runs. Start with the 2002 final.
 
metsman

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Hamburg is just ridiculously good conditions for Fed. He might even beat Nadal there peak to peak.

Blue clay, Fedr obviously the GOAT, no more needs to be said.

Fed put together pretty solid efforts in Madrid from 09-11, he likes the conditions there, so he probably would be able to go toe to toe with peak Rafa there too.
 
metsman

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Third Serve said:
Only wanted to focus on red clay. I almost consider 2012 Madrid to be a completely different Masters tournament. I believe Madrid Indoors and Shanghai should be considered separate tournaments for similar reasons (even though they occupy the same slot) -- two different conditions.

With Hamburg and red clay Madrid, the differences are not so easily noticeable. In fact, both tend to favor attacking play more than the other clay tournaments.
Click to expand...
Hamburg is slower than Madrid but the most important thing for Fed is bounce and Hamburg probably had some of the lowest bounce of any outdoor red clay court due to the dampness.

Madrid is a pretty fast and lively clay court. Hamburg is much more dead but that favors Fed because he can take massive swings, use the slice, while not having the ball come up on him (he accelerates up on the ball to such a large degree that high bounces hurt him, even on the FH).
 
metsman

metsman

G.O.A.T.
04-05 Hamburg Fed was just incredible to watch. 07 gets the press, but those two were definitely the best.

Beat Gaudio, Gonzo, Moya, Hewitt, Coria x 2, Fiasco, Berdych, Robredo, Gasquet losing just two sets.
 
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Third Serve

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metsman said:
04-05 Hamburg Fed was just incredible to watch. 07 gets the press, but those two were definitely the best.

Beat Gaudio, Gonzo, Moya, Hewitt, Coria x 2, Fiasco, Berdych, Robredo, Gasquet losing just two sets.
Click to expand...
Really liking 2002 as well, even if it was baby pre-peak manbunerer.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
metsman said:
His words really did paint a picture.
Click to expand...
One of my favorites in terms of sheer ridiculousness:
90's Clay said:
Why is that? Because he took advantage of a crapola draw and inept grass field? Whipping Boy Wawrinka who turns to Junior Level Headcase mode when he sees his daddy, Raonic (A player with the returning ability of a high schooler) and a bunch of qualifiers doesn't scream "the greatest" to me

An older player with experience SHOULD be able to just outclass that garbage. For 2 weeks he hasn't played any top player in good form.

And don't tell me Wawa and Raonic are great. Wawa is NEVER good when he goes up against Fed. And Raonic makes Roddick look like a GOAT candidate
Click to expand...
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
Federer at Hamburg/Madrid by some distance.

Federer at Hamburg/Madrid:

2002 - was really good minus that one set vs kuerten. the final vs Safin was exceptional and IMO his best match on clay
2004 - beat Gaudio, Gonzalez, Moya, Hewitt, Coria. that Hewitt semi was an utter destruction. FH on the same level as the USO final. Only -ve being the 1st set vs Coria.
2005 - dominant. no set lost. beat coria, davydenko and gasquet in a row in straight sets. this was a gasquet who was in good form that clay season, having beaten fed in Monte Carlo and being pretty competitive vs nadal
2007 - actually had his struggles vs monaco, ferrer and moya. last 2 sets of the final vs Nadal were exceptional.
2009 - lost one set (TB set to Roddick). beat soderling, delpo comfortably and then clutched out a straight set win vs Nadal in the final. 2/2 on BPs, Nadal was 0/4.

2012 - struggled in the 1st match vs raonic, then cruised to the final playing some great tennis beating gasquet, ferrer, tipsy comfortably. final was decent-good level vs birdman.

shoutout to 2008 hamburg where he was utterly dominant before the final :

Semi-Finals43Andreas SeppiW63 61
Quarter-Finals28Fernando VerdascoW63 63
Round of 1648Robin SoderlingW63 62
Round of 3227Jarkko NieminenW61 63

if he had not choked that final against nadal, this would be right up there with his best Hamburg runs.

Djokovic :

2008 - went 3 sets vs andreev, wawrinka. had 2 retirements. good tennis, but not great
2011 - was exceptional vs soderling and nadal. did struggle vs Murray though and could've lost that match. still, his best run at Rome considering the QF and F.
2014 - went 3 sets vs ferrer, kohlschreiber, raonic, nadal. Nadal and ferrer are fine obviously. Maybe could say ok with one kohly/raonic, but not both
2015 - lost a set in his 1st 3 matches vs almagro, belluci, nishikori. raised his level vs ferrer and fed. final vs fed was exceptional. so a pretty good run. 2nd best run at Rome I'd say.
2020 - meh almost all the way through
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
abmk said:
Federer at Hamburg/Madrid by some distance.

Federer at Hamburg/Madrid:

2002 - was really good minus that one set vs kuerten. the final vs Safin was exceptional and IMO his best match on clay
2004 - beat Gaudio, Gonzalez, Moya, Hewitt, Coria. that Hewitt semi was an utter destruction. FH on the same level as the USO final. Only -ve being the 1st set vs Coria.
2005 - dominant. no set lost. beat coria, davydenko and gasquet in a row in straight sets. this was a gasquet who was in good form that clay season, having beaten fed in Monte Carlo and being pretty competitive vs nadal
2007 - actually had his struggles vs monaco, ferrer and moya. last 2 sets of the final vs Nadal were exceptional.
2009 - lost one set (TB set to Roddick). beat soderling, delpo comfortably and then clutched out a straight set win vs Nadal in the final. 2/2 on BPs, Nadal was 0/4.

2012 - struggled in the 1st match vs raonic, then cruised to the final playing some great tennis beating gasquet, ferrer, tipsy comfortably. final was decent-good level vs birdman.

shoutout to 2008 hamburg where he was utterly dominant before the final :

Semi-Finals43Andreas SeppiW63 61
Quarter-Finals28Fernando VerdascoW63 63
Round of 1648Robin SoderlingW63 62
Round of 3227Jarkko NieminenW61 63

if he had not choked that final against nadal, this would be right up there with his best Hamburg runs.

Djokovic :

2008 - went 3 sets vs andreev, wawrinka. had 2 retirements. good tennis, but not great
2011 - was exceptional vs soderling and nadal. did struggle vs Murray though and could've lost that match. still, his best run at Rome considering the QF and F.
2014 - went 3 sets vs ferrer, kohlschreiber, raonic, nadal. Nadal and ferrer are fine obviously. Maybe could say ok with one kohly/raonic, but not both
2015 - lost a set in his 1st 3 matches vs almagro, belluci, nishikori. raised his level vs ferrer and fed. final vs fed was exceptional. so a pretty good run. 2nd best run at Rome I'd say.
2020 - meh almost all the way through
Click to expand...
Agree with this. These are the reasons why I picked Fed for the better title runs. But what do you think about their overall careers? Djokovic made four extra finals in addition to his five wins.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
Third Serve said:
Agree with this. These are the reasons why I picked Fed for the better title runs. But what do you think about their overall careers? Djokovic made four extra finals in addition to his five wins.
Click to expand...

djokovic actually has 5 more finals in addition to 5 wins.
Fed has 6 wins+2 more finals+a semi lost to nadal (11)

Still take fed's career at Hamburg/Madrid clay over Djokovic's at Rome, though it is closer here.
 
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