Forgive Me, Father, For I Am a Full Fledged Sinner!

Career Titles, Slam & Overall


  • Total voters
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Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Of course we have a relative small sample size and he didn't play against the biggest hitter but it is in line with what we have observed on the court and in the stats before: Jannik is one of the best returners in the business.

Just another bit about his height. Marc should be 196 and if you check the footage from 3:30 there is no way that Sinner is not abit over 190.
 
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Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
The big 3 aged around 19-20. Nadal profits in his RPW from his clay focus while it punishes Federer. Rafa had a bit of a dip in 2006 and his stats recovered but it is overal a very interesting perspective:

Djokovic

Year​
M​
W​
L​
Win%​
Set W-L​
Set%​
Game W-L​
Game%​
TB W-L​
TB%​
MS​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Best​

2007
87​
68​
19​
78.2%​
164-66​
71.3%​
1280-972​
56.8%​
30-13​
69.8%​
83​
83.9%​
28.2%​
7.5%​
2.8%​
64.1%​
72.3%​
53.9%​
65.7%​
40.2%​
52.9%​
1.17​
W (5x)
2006
58​
40​
18​
69.0%​
100-55​
64.5%​
819-688​
54.3%​
19-5​
79.2%​
52​
81.3%​
26.5%​
6.9%​
3.7%​
62.8%​
71.8%​
52.6%​
64.6%​
38.7%​
51.8%​
1.09​
W (2x)

Nadal

2006
72​
60​
12​
83.3%​
145-44​
76.7%​
1069-778​
57.9%​
20-12​
62.5%​
69​
86.4%​
29.0%​
4.4%​
2.0%​
69.2%​
71.6%​
57.2%​
67.1%​
40.6%​
53.6%​
1.24​
W (5x)
2005
89​
79​
10​
88.8%​
187-46​
80.3%​
1318-834​
61.2%​
16-9​
64.0%​
87​
84.5%​
37.5%​
3.4%​
2.1%​
69.2%​
70.5%​
57.3%​
66.4%​
44.6%​
55.2%​
1.33​
W (11x)

Federer

2001
70​
49​
21​
70.0%​
123-73​
62.8%​
1069-927​
53.6%​
27-17​
61.4%​
66​
83.4%​
23.3%​
9.1%​
3.5%​
59.6%​
74.4%​
52.6%​
65.6%​
38.5%​
51.9%​
1.12​
W (Milan)
2000
66​
36​
30​
54.5%​
93-80​
53.8%​
886-850​
51.0%​
18-16​
52.9%​
57​
82.1%​
19.3%​
8.3%​
4.2%​
58.5%​
72.2%​
52.4%​
64.0%​
36.2%​
50.4%​
1.01​
F (2x)
 
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Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Something I realized is just how low his ~61% percentage of won matches is compared to many peers if you consider his very high ~51,6% TPW and ~55% TGW.

That he won less % of matches then sets ( ~63%) must be very rare. Roanic and Berrettini have a similar strange 2020 but due to smaller numbers we have greater spikes. A basic outcome of the rules of tennis is that over a carrer if TPW>50% then TPW<TGW<TSW<TMW
 
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stringertom

Bionic Poster
Something I realized is just how low his ~61% percentage of won matches is compared to many peers if you consider his very high ~51,6% TPW and ~55% TGW.

That he won less % of matches then sets ( ~63%) must be very rare. Roanic and Berrettini have a similar strange 2020 but due to smaller numbers we have greater spikes. A basic outcome of the rules of tennis is that over a carrer if TPW>50% then TPW<TGW<TSW<TMW
ATP level MD matches in 2020, Jannik has underperformed in decisive sets (3-5) and decisive TBs (0-2).
 

Baseline_Bungle

Hall of Fame
Helluva final. Might have actually enjoyed it if I wasn't so emotionally invested. Proud of the Sinnerman though, managed to squeeze one in at the very last chance, despite all of the hardship in this rotten God-forsaken year.
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
In other news: with this week's result, Jannik will top Martin Sinner's career-best ranking of world n. 42, thereby officially establishing himself as the greatest Sinner in tennis history.
In news from the future, Young Sinner will team up with even younger Martin Damm to be the top doubles team representing the Styx River Country Club. Those Damm Sinners will rule the underworld!
 

Baseline_Bungle

Hall of Fame
In news from the future, Young Sinner will team up with even younger Martin Damm to be the top doubles team representing the Styx River Country Club. Those Damm Sinners will rule the underworld!

Ha! Forgot about that one... got me scouring the ol' stat book. Turns out Martin Damm (father) and Martin Sinner faced each other 3 times, with the Czech leading 2-1 in the hellish head-to-head.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
At least some good news in this trying times. Lost a good friend today. Well done Janni, more will follow!!!

The lair of the fox, or least where he helped his parents and a fantastic video with his village. My good friend hiked a great deal in those mountains over rock, snow and grass. Autumn there can be so beautiful that it hurts the heart. He would have enjoyed this title, cursed Covid. Saluti e riposi in pace....
 
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speedysteve

Legend
Nice match and first title win.
May there be many more.
Somehow I doubt he did what McEnroe did the night before his first tour final
 

Fedinkum

Legend
Just jumping into the confession queue. I might have found my new religion after Federer retires.

Forgive me Federer, for I have Sinned...
200.gif
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Before the final spoke with the great Italian tennis journalist Ubaldo. Asked if he was satisfied with his serve percentages and if he was happy he said that it will take 3-4 years before he can be. He needs to mask them better and make more firsts, although one gets more points with one around 70%. An old wise head on a young fresh body,.
 

Baseline_Bungle

Hall of Fame
At least some good news in this trying times. Lost a good friend today. Well done Janni, more will follow!!!

The lair of the fox, or least where he helped his parents and a fantastic video with his village. My good friend hiked a great deal in those mountains over rock, snow and grass. Autumn there can be so beautiful that it hurts the heart. He would have enjoyed this title, cursed Covid. Saluti e riposi in pace....

Mi spiace, condoglianze.
 

Baseline_Bungle

Hall of Fame
For all the Italianly-challenged, there's a gem in the first question in Italian, starting around 12:00. The reporter asks what was going through his mind as he sat there waiting for the award ceremony to begin, to which he replies: "I was trying to figure out why I lost the second set."
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
For all the Italianly-challenged, there's a gem in the first question in Italian, starting around 12:00. The reporter asks what was going through his mind as he sat there waiting for the award ceremony to begin, to which he replies: "I was trying to figure out why I lost the second set."

Grazie per le condoglianze, the bad news came right after the final while I was typing and looking for a video about Sinners home area. Strange coincidence, usually I don't like to share such things.

Indeed. Words about hard work and improvement can sound cliché but he proves this with great simplicity and clarity. His words about the serve game show deep insight into the nature of the game. He knows that he underperforms now relative to his height but also that this hugely important strike usually improves a lot during the first years in the tour. I like that he spoke first not about the power of the serve but the need to mask it*.

I realized also how different he looks on the court compared to off it. Never understood why people thought of him as cold. Outside he is a clown with his friends, see 45:15. However playing he looks more mature, harder. His warface is truly ice.

*An interviewer spoke about the way one holds the ball to hide its trademark in table tennis and he really seemed curious about it.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Ci sono molte cose che mi colpiscono del suo gioco. Ha un gioco molto completo e poche debolezze. Si muove benissimo per essere così alto, serve bene, apre benissimo il campo e, quando apre gli angoli, ti butta fuori dal campo. Può colpire ogni colpo da ogni posizione. Non è facile essere così completi a questa età."

"There are many things which strike me about his game. He has a very complete game and few weaknesses. He moves very well for one so tall, serves well, open the court very well and he pushes you out the court once he opens the angles. He can hit any stroke from any position. It isn't easy to be so complete at this age."

Interesting view from the opposite side of the net, fits well with what Federer said...
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Nobody knows. In the last four opens he was only beaten by the eventual winners or he won like in Sofia. One of them was a retirement against Rublev. Personally I would rank him Elowise Top 20, maybe Top 15 when the AO come around. He will have a harder path due to the high ranking.

In any case he will give it a go
 

James P

G.O.A.T.
Nobody knows. In the last four opens he was only beaten by the eventual winners or he won like in Sofia. One of them was a retirement against Rublev. Personally I would rank him Elowise Top 20, maybe Top 15 when the AO come around. He will have a harder path due to the high ranking.

In any case he will give it a go
He's currently #9 in UTR rankings, an Elo-type system. It has a much quicker responsiveness to recent results than a traditional Elo system, though. It also factors in how well you won, dominating victory worth more than a tight victory.

PositionNameUTR3 Month TrendATP Ranking
1Rafael Nadal (ESP)15.9816.062
2Novak Djokovic (SRB)15.7915.771
3Dominic Thiem (AUT)15.6615.593
4Roger Federer (SUI)15.64------5
5Daniil Medvedev (RUS)15.5815.594
6Andrey Rublev (RUS)15.5515.558
7Milos Raonic (CAN)15.4815.4614
8Stefanos Tsitsipas (GRE)15.4715.427
9Jannik Sinner (ITA)15.4715.5137
10Diego Schwartzman (ARG)15.4215.419
11Alexander Zverev (GER)15.4215.466
12Filip Krajinovic (SRB)15.3915.3831
 

Baseline_Bungle

Hall of Fame
Now that our favorite Sinner has wrapped up his season, I thought I'd try to gather my thoughts on what we are witnessing. Forgive the verbosity, here goes nothing...

Without the post-Covid ranking freeze, Sinner would be finishing 2020 as - you guessed it - the 20th ranked player in the world. Nobody knows what might have happened had they played a full schedule, but it's reasonable to assume he'd be even a little higher than that. Furthermore, when you look at the big matches he lost in recent months, all of them felt like he should have or at least could have won: Kachanov in NY, Dimitrov in Rome, Zverev in Cologne and even Nadal in Paris. So in light of the above, it's safe to say his level is already up there with the very best in the game. Which, when you consider he was struggling in futures as recently as February 2019, is kinda scary.

However, while there's no arguing with the results, his game seems to have changed since the Bergamo days - and not in a way that everyone will be thrilled with. The devastating baseline aggressor, capable of petrifying opponents with lightning-speed winners from both sides, seems to have given way to a much more subdued and defensive player, certainly more consistent but also more monotonous. He also seems to be coming to the net much less, perhaps to minimize damage from what is clearly his biggest area of weakness. Finally, he seems to have mostly abandoned his trademark shot from the early part of his career - the backhand down the line - preferring instead to lock into the cross-court diagonal. Now, much of this may simply be a byproduct of superior competition. And he clearly retains the pace to wear out almost anyone. Still, he seems to be evolving into a different player than what many of us expected: a little less of a super-Berdych or a super-Klizan, and a little more of a poor man's Murray or a poor man's Djoker (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when you put it in those terms...).

Thoughts?
 

Cortana

Legend
I think it's not a bad thing to get close to Djokovics style of play. I mean in the final of Sofia he hit CC forehand winners out of very defensive positions that required a lot of speed and flexibility...sometimes it looked like Djokovic himself was playing. He needs this to beat them all. It looks extremely promising.

I hope the old ranking system will return soon. He should be in the Top10 for sure if he keeps it up. I'm pretty sure that he would have beaten Djokovic in RG this year if he met him instead of Nadal.
 

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
Now that our favorite Sinner has wrapped up his season, I thought I'd try to gather my thoughts on what we are witnessing. Forgive the verbosity, here goes nothing...

Without the post-Covid ranking freeze, Sinner would be finishing 2020 as - you guessed it - the 20th ranked player in the world. Nobody knows what might have happened had they played a full schedule, but it's reasonable to assume he'd be even a little higher than that. Furthermore, when you look at the big matches he lost in recent months, all of them felt like he should have or at least could have won: Kachanov in NY, Dimitrov in Rome, Zverev in Cologne and even Nadal in Paris. So in light of the above, it's safe to say his level is already up there with the very best in the game. Which, when you consider he was struggling in futures as recently as February 2019, is kinda scary.

However, while there's no arguing with the results, his game seems to have changed since the Bergamo days - and not in a way that everyone will be thrilled with. The devastating baseline aggressor, capable of petrifying opponents with lightning-speed winners from both sides, seems to have given way to a much more subdued and defensive player, certainly more consistent but also more monotonous. He also seems to be coming to the net much less, perhaps to minimize damage from what is clearly his biggest area of weakness. Finally, he seems to have mostly abandoned his trademark shot from the early part of his career - the backhand down the line - preferring instead to lock into the cross-court diagonal. Now, much of this may simply be a byproduct of superior competition. And he clearly retains the pace to wear out almost anyone. Still, he seems to be evolving into a different player than what many of us expected: a little less of a super-Berdych or a super-Klizan, and a little more of a poor man's Murray or a poor man's Djoker (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when you put it in those terms...).

Thoughts?
A player that can be either Berdych or Djokovic as the situation calls sounds pretty scary.

That serve has yet a long way to go, though.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
His level is already up there with the very best in the game.
Great post, I agree his level of tennis is comparable to most of the top guys. It's his mentality which has disappointed, especially in trying to serve out the first set against Rafa at RG. He collapsed mentally then and this isn't a good sign for a (possible) future great player. He was outplaying Nadal in that match and he just choked and then faded badly in the third, 1-6. Did I expect him to beat Rafa there? No, but he should have won the first and remained competitive. I'll be interested to see in 2021 how he steps up against the big three.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
The UTR ranking and the 3-month trend is quite revealing. It complements the Elo and the Atp ranking by allowing for rapid shifts, thanks for the list.

Overall he seems to have shifted towards a more reactive balance. He builds his points more. At least this is the eye, but we might get some stat support.

At this level the balls come at you with more guile and variety, so the risk-reward trade-off chances. He has often mentioned that players like Medvedev or Mannarino deliver strange balls which in turn makes it harder to go to the limit. I have also done some research on his strokes and he really is able to deliver a lot of top spin deep and fast from both sides.

This is an excellent and long tested approach to pressure and trouble opponents. As B_B pointed out his movement and stamina allow him to endure such battles. So it seems fairly natural to shift towards crosscourts, often punching against the weaker backside.

I see this as an important phase in his growth as a player, he gains at a high level valuable and much needed experience in the basics of the modern game. It is strange that he is both precocious and an inexperienced late grower.
 
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Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Said that he is an attacking player at heart. He and his staff stated consistently that he works on his net game and needs to get better there. I suspect that once the base game is more solid we will see more variety and more attacking flair. He is quick and not only for his size and can pressure the opponent with big ground strokes to facilitate the approach to the net...

About the serve I qoute myself: "His words about the serve game show deep insight into the nature of the game. He knows that he underperforms now relative to his height but also that this hugely important strike usually improves a lot during the first years in the tour. I like that he spoke first not about the power of the serve but the need to mask it. "

It will get better, no doubt about that. How good? No idea but if much more then it will hurt. Right now he loses his serve too much mostly because he doesn't serve very well.
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
2020 evaluation: A-minus

Plus marks for: winning his first title and making a slam QF

Minus mark for: the USO collapse vs Khachanov and underperforming early in NZ/Oz as well as his European indoor bailiwick.

The overall game is coming around but there’s lots of room to get better...serve, net game and fitness will be the off-season focus. Let’s all hope it’s the normal short off-season and without any lengthy pauses or we will all wonder what could have been.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
height-adv-atp_height_univariate.jpg


Federer is always an excellent serve benchmark as he as such a long brilliant career. He serves very well for his height, helped by his muscular nature.* Of course there is some positive bias as he didn't play as much on clay.

Note the relationship between Aces and DF while taking into account rising 1st%. It is quite plain that he improved considerably from 19 to his mid-twenties and still became better later. The DR number is stable but he tended to play less and thus against relative stronger opponents.

*Djokovic is a leaner type

Federer Tour-Level Seasons Top
Mouse over column headers (on all tables) for stat definitions. Click on years for results from that season.
Year​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
DR​
Best​
2019
9.8%​
2.1%​
64.7%​
78.1%​
59.4%​
71.5%​
1.38​
W (4x)
2018
12.1%​
2.5%​
62.0%​
80.3%​
58.5%​
72.0%​
1.37​
W (4x)
2017
12.5%​
2.3%​
62.2%​
79.8%​
59.5%​
72.1%​
1.42​
W (7x)
2016
10.9%​
2.2%​
62.4%​
79.9%​
56.3%​
71.0%​
1.33​
F (Brisbane)
2015
11.5%​
2.4%​
63.9%​
80.1%​
57.3%​
71.9%​
1.41​
W (6x)
2014
9.9%​
1.9%​
63.9%​
78.7%​
57.9%​
71.2%​
1.38​
W (5x)
2013
8.8%​
2.1%​
62.6%​
76.5%​
55.3%​
68.6%​
1.27​
W (Halle)
2012
10.7%​
1.9%​
62.9%​
77.7%​
59.9%​
71.1%​
1.34​
W (6x)
2011
9.5%​
1.8%​
63.7%​
78.7%​
57.1%​
70.9%​
1.38​
W (4x)
2010
11.1%​
1.9%​
61.9%​
78.2%​
56.3%​
69.9%​
1.34​
W (5x)
2009
11.0%​
2.2%​
62.5%​
79.4%​
57.0%​
71.0%​
1.32​
W (4x)
2008
11.3%​
1.2%​
64.1%​
76.9%​
57.9%​
70.1%​
1.34​
W (4x)
2007
10.4%​
1.5%​
61.9%​
77.3%​
59.0%​
70.3%​
1.38​
W (8x)
2006
8.8%​
1.6%​
62.7%​
76.7%​
58.9%​
70.1%​
1.40​
W (12x)
2005
9.1%​
2.3%​
62.9%​
76.3%​
58.6%​
69.8%​
1.38​
W (11x)
2004
10.1%​
2.8%​
61.6%​
78.2%​
57.6%​
70.3%​
1.40​
W (11x)
2003
10.3%​
3.9%​
59.5%​
76.8%​
56.1%​
68.4%​
1.32​
W (7x)
2002
9.0%​
3.5%​
59.9%​
75.8%​
53.5%​
66.9%​
1.17​
W (3x)
2001
9.1%​
3.5%​
59.6%​
74.4%​
52.6%​
65.6%​
1.12​
W (Milan)
2000
8.3%​
4.2%​
58.5%​
72.2%​
52.4%​
64.0%​
1.01​
F (2x)
1999
6.1%​
4.5%​
57.6%​
70.4%​
48.9%​
61.3%​
0.94​
SF (Vienna)
Career
10.1%​
2.4%​
62.1%​
77.3%​
56.8%​
69.6%​
1.31​
 
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Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Some Sinner stuff before I take a month long absence from this great forum:

1) From sportface, I will just translate the most relevant bits...

Quali sono stati gli aspetti su cui vi siete focalizzati a livello tecnico-tattico?
“Quello che più balzava all’occhio era il timing sulla palla. È stato facile per noi indirizzarlo ad un gioco offensivo, cercando di fargli tenere i piedi dentro il campo. Ricordo che a 12 anni andava in difficoltà con i ragazzi più strutturati di lui, che con maggiori rotazioni riuscivano a tenerlo lontano dalla riga di fondo. Lui ci ha sempre seguito, anche quando ad un raduno per la nazionale un maestro lo criticò perché a sua detta non sapeva “fare due palleggi” per via del suo gioco ritenuto eccessivamente votato all’attacco. In quel caso lui mi mandò un messaggio dicendomi che non gli importava di ciò che quel maestro sosteneva, e che avrebbe continuato per la strada intrapresa. Anche da piccolo aveva le idee chiare”.

The first thing I noticed was the timing on the ball. It was easy for us to guide him to an aggressive game, trying to get him to keep the feet inside the baseline. I remember that with twelve he suffered more refined/developed boys then him, which werer able to keep him away from the baseline with a greater (top) spin. He always followed us, even when he was critiqued by coach at a national callup/training camp for not being able to "make two ball exchanges" due to his game, considered to be too aggressive. In that case he sent me a message that he didn't care what the coach said and that he would continue his way to play. Even as a child he had clear ideas.

Raccontaci un aneddoto legato alla sua esperienza come tuo allievo.
“Al di là del primo nostro incontro in cui parlavamo a gesti (ride, ndr), ricordo un torneo di doppio giocato con Jannik in cui arrivammo in semifinale. Ovviamente era teso perché giocava con il suo maestro, il primo set andò via facile per i nostri avversari, un signore di 40 anni quarta categoria ed Holzer, un’ottima seconda categoria che aveva una velocità di palla fuori dal normale. Dopo lo scotto del primo set dissi a Jannik di fare due passi dentro al campo in risposta: da lì cominciò ad impattare in maniera incredibile col rovescio, tenendo la diagonale in maniera spaventosa. Era un 12enne di circa 50 chili opposto ad un 2.1. Perdemmo quel match al super tie-break, ma in quell’occasione mi impressionò”.

Besides the first encounter when we talked with gestures, I remember a double with Jannik where we got to the semis. He was clearly nervous because he played with his coach, the first set was easily won by the opponents, a gentlemen of forty 4th category and Holzer, an excellent second category which had a ball speed faster then usual. After the 'burn' of the first set I said to Jannik to retreat on the return a couple of paces: from there he started to hitting incredibly with the back, sustaining the cross courts exchanges in a stunning manner. He was a twelve year of roughly 50kg (seems to high to me) against a 2.1. We lost at the super tie-break but he impressed me in that occasion.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Found also something local in German, thankfully I speak six languages :) I translating loosely:

His first coach, Heribert Mayr was asked about the young Jannik

With eight years he came to the Tenniscenter in Bruneck. I already saw that he was perfect (well developed) in coordination and motor skills, technically not so much. We changed some things and at once learned new things. He had a good head/mentality was focused, hungry to learn and absorbed new things like a sponge.*

He had his coolness already with 12-13. He never grimaced, just played his game. He only showed emotions after losing...

...

Why did he chose tennis?

I can only speculate why he switched to tennis. As a boy he won everything in skiing, afterwards in the higher classes he became only 7th or 8th. Technically he was good but lacked weight. With 12 he weighted only 30kg, others had around 50kg. With that weight he had no chance on flattish terrain. This is the reason, I think, that he switched to tennis.

Did you convince him?

No. When he was twelve he came once to me and said: Hebi, I have taken a decision. I was shocked (maybe because he thought he would leave tennis?). He said then that he decided to stop training skiing. I was stunned...

Why stunned?

Because he was Italian champion in skiing, while he had won nothing yet in tennis..


*He stated once that he thought no to have particular talent, which speaks more about his mental approach to be honest...
 
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Baseline_Bungle

Hall of Fame
I'd just integrate by saying that a "2.1", for those unfamiliar with Italy's ranking system, is a pro-level type player. Indeed, the Holzer in question has been ranked as high as world n. 600.

@Rovesciarete do I maybe know you from... Livetennis?
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
No, I was not active from Livetennis... But in any case it was nice to meet you!

I want to become like Seppi, another local interview. As usual I translate a couple of things out of respect of the publication:

Sinner, number 1770 has a great goal: I want to become like Andreas Seppi. He was a huge idol in my youth, becoming like him would be a dream. I work hard on it and give always my best. Sometimes we train together and it is an amazing feeling. Just to see how cool he plays is sensational. One day I hope to step on his footprints...

I want to get to the top, this was always my goal. Since I'm 14 I strive to become a professional. Sometime I want to look back on my career and be able to say I gave it all.

Asked about a possible participation at home: I don't want to stress myself. Of course it would be great to get a Wild Card for St. Ulrich (Ortisei). I let it come as it is but if it does't work out it is also no problem.
 
Sinner being an Italian worries me a little... being an Italian from South Tirol puts me a bit at ease... we'll see... for now I really enjoy seeing him play.
 
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