Nadal's match up advantage against Federer is a myth

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
If Nadal's advantage with Federer is hitting the topspin forehand to the one handed backhand, how come Nadal troubled Federer a lot on grass where the bounce is low?

2006-08 Federer at Wimbledon dropped 1 set in 17 matches before the final, and 6 sets in 3 matches against Nadal.

And how come Nadal has a higher win percentage against two-handers than he does against one-handers (even excluding matches vs Federer/Djokovic)?

85.1% vs non-Federer one handers
85.9% vs non-Djokovic two handers

I think the reason Federer lost a lot of matches to Nadal is psychological: he was scared to play someone of his level.

It's the same reason he also lost the arguably 5 closest Slam matches against Djokovic: UO10, UO11, WI14, UO15, WI19.
 
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Lew II

G.O.A.T.
It’s not about bounce height. What makes Nadal’s forehand difficult for a 1hb on the rise is rough courts with difficult-to-judge bounce (clay or grass). Smooth hardcourt with predictable bounces no prob. Anyone who has played on all 3 surfaces knows this.
But Nadal has a higher win rate against one handers than he does against two handers, and the bounce height was always used as the main explaination of Fed's losses.
 

NonP

Legend
You actually have a point for once. Your conclusion, though, is crap as usual.

It’s not about bounce height. What makes Nadal’s forehand difficult for a 1hb on the rise is rough courts with difficult-to-judge bounce (clay or grass). Smooth hardcourt with predictable bounces no prob. Anyone who has played on all 3 surfaces knows this.

Rafa's lefty spin is a bigger challenge, I think.

Oh yeah, and the fact that his FH ain't half bad. :happydevil:
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
But Nadal has a higher win rate against one handers than he does against two handers, and the bounce height was always used as the main explaination of Fed's losses.
That’s because the people that used that as the main explanation probably don’t play much tennis on multiple surfaces.
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
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ADuck

Legend
It’s not about bounce height. What makes Nadal’s forehand difficult for a 1hb on the rise is rough courts with difficult-to-judge bounce (clay or grass). Smooth hardcourt with predictable bounces no prob.
This problem is not unique to Federer though as two-handers also struggle with this. Not saying OP is right because it's not black or white, there are degrees.
 
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Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
If Nadal's advantage with Federer is hitting the topspin forehand to the one handed backhand, how come Nadal troubled Federer a lot on grass where the bounce is low?

2006-08 Federer at Wimbledon dropped 1 set in 17 matches before the final, and 6 sets in 3 matches against Nadal.

And how come Nadal has a higher win percentage against two-handers than he does against one-handers (even excluding matches vs Federer/Djokovic)?

85.1% vs non-Federer one handers
85.9% vs non-Djokovic two handers

I think the reason Federer lost a lot of matches to Nadal is psychological: he was scared to play someone of his level.

It's the same reason he also lost the arguably 5 closest Slam matches against Djokovic: UO10, UO11, WI14, UO15, WI19.
Backhanderer and Thiem wrecked Nadal‘s domination of 1HBH. I bet it looked different prior to 2017!
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
But Nadal has a higher win rate against one handers than he does against two handers, and the bounce height was always used as the main explaination of Fed's losses.
Federer has a weaker one-handed topspin and flat backhand than most player due to his extra small racket size in those days. The margin for error on timing up one of Nadal's topspin balls is so much smaller than someone like Thiem with a bigger racket who stands way behind the baseline anyway. Federer's game is less effective from those depths, he doesn't like to be back there.

And Nadal isn't someone Federer could slice to death because arguably no one digs out a low ball better than Rafa. That natural topspin flick he has lets him dig out all sorts of junk balls and still get them over the net, as well has having a real good slice of his own for low balls on his backhand side.

Roger also never had a good backhand topspin return against anybody in those days. He much preferred to chip and slice until he switched to the 97 and was able to come over the top more easily. That's the biggest thing that turned around their H2H dynamic. Not the rally ball, but taking away all the free points Nadal would get on serves, particularly in the ad court on big points. Back in the day even the best case scenario of Fed hitting a really good slice return would result in the same thing I wrote earlier, Rafa would just dig it out no problem. And in reality most of his normal returns landed short because he couldn't just flick them for easy power with the 90.

But hey, Nadal constantly attacked the Federer backhand for no reason, I guess. He didn't know what he was doing. Someone should've told him he only wins 85.1% of the time and should probably avoid the Federer backhand if possible.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Federer has a weaker one-handed topspin and flat backhand than most player due to his extra small racket size in those days. The margin for error on timing up one of Nadal's topspin balls is so much smaller than someone like Thiem with a bigger racket who stands way behind the baseline anyway. Federer's game is less effective from those depths, he doesn't like to be back there.

And Nadal isn't someone Federer could slice to death because arguably no one digs out a low ball better than Rafa. That natural topspin flick he has lets him dig out all sorts of junk balls and still get them over the net, as well has having a real good slice of his own for low balls on his backhand side.

Roger also never had a good backhand topspin return against anybody in those days. He much preferred to chip and slice until he switched to the 97 and was able to come over the top more easily. That's the biggest thing that turned around their H2H dynamic. Not the rally ball, but taking away all the free points Nadal would get on serves, particularly in the ad court on big points. Back in the day even the best case scenario of Fed hitting a really good slice return would result in the same thing I wrote earlier, Rafa would just dig it out no problem. And in reality most of his normal returns landed short because he couldn't just flick them for easy power with the 90.

But hey, Nadal constantly attacked the Federer backhand for no reason, I guess. He didn't know what he was doing. Someone should've told him he only wins 85.1% of the time and should probably avoid the Federer backhand if possible.
Exactly, which explains why his 2017 game matched up better with Rafa than earlier peak Fed...
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Federer has a weaker one-handed topspin and flat backhand than most player due to his extra small racket size in those days. The margin for error on timing up one of Nadal's topspin balls is so much smaller than someone like Thiem with a bigger racket who stands way behind the baseline anyway. Federer's game is less effective from those depths, he doesn't like to be back there.

And Nadal isn't someone Federer could slice to death because arguably no one digs out a low ball better than Rafa. That natural topspin flick he has lets him dig out all sorts of junk balls and still get them over the net, as well has having a real good slice of his own for low balls on his backhand side.

Roger also never had a good backhand topspin return against anybody in those days. He much preferred to chip and slice until he switched to the 97 and was able to come over the top more easily. That's the biggest thing that turned around their H2H dynamic. Not the rally ball, but taking away all the free points Nadal would get on serves, particularly in the ad court on big points. Back in the day even the best case scenario of Fed hitting a really good slice return would result in the same thing I wrote earlier, Rafa would just dig it out no problem. And in reality most of his normal returns landed short because he couldn't just flick them for easy power with the 90.

But hey, Nadal constantly attacked the Federer backhand for no reason, I guess. He didn't know what he was doing. Someone should've told him he only wins 85.1% of the time and should probably avoid the Federer backhand if possible.
Every player would attack Federer on his backhand as it's his weakest shot. It has nothing to do with a specific match up.
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
I think the reason Federer lost a lot of matches to Nadal is psychological: he was scared to play someone of his level.

This is inherently true.

Federer in most of his infamous losses had strong stretches, but couldn't drive the advantage home.

The practical thing that none of Federer fans accept is that Federer many times can be outplayed. Federer himself doesn't believe that.

All arrogant comments about his matches with Nadal being on his racquet stems from same delusion.

Even Djokodal gets outplayed.

But what sets the H2H encounters apart,for Djokodal, is that when they get outplayed they inevitably keep themselves firm and took whatever opportunity that comes.


The big 3 are equals in my eyes, heck I think Federer has the greatest ability among them.

But Federer lacks the mental and strategic fortitude to go up against both.

Trust me if it was prime Nadal or Djokovic mounting the comeback at WB 2008 ,they would have won it.

Or I can never see Djokovic,Nadal losing 2010 or 2011 USO after getting to that point.


Nadal does have an advantage BUT it's also about Federer not being capable of accepting that someone can be better than him.
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
BC Nadal was dat ni*** in his prime 8-B Fed was THAT good at his peak, credit where it's due. He blew everyone away. It comes down to the fact that Nadal was the only player that could repeatedly get his balls back with interest. Exhibit A:


This match is perfect example of what I am saying


Federer was his mythical Jesus Fed level in that first set, and nothing Nadal did affected him. But Nadal kept coming and coming,and Jesus Fed wasn't happy that he no longer was making it look all pretty and regal and fell apart.

Federer reminds me of that line about Loki in avengers about needing all the hoopla around his conquest of earth

He wants to look really good while winning because it reaafirms his belief about being better than all, Djokodal simply want to win.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
2017 Wimby Fraud would be wrecking 08 moonballdal. Even clay might be close.
Not quite - Rafa doesn't quite get to the balls he was able to get to in '08. Wrecking surely is an exaggeration.

On the whole while Rogi's racket has made a difference, slow footspeed from Rafa is being overlooked quite a bit in their more recent matches.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
This match is perfect example of what I am saying


Federer was his mythical Jesus Fed level in that first set, and nothing Nadal did affected him. But Nadal kept coming and coming,and Jesus Fed wasn't happy that he no longer was making it look all pretty and regal and fell apart.

Federer reminds me of that line about Loki in avengers about needing all the hoopla around his conquest of earth

He wants to look really good while winning because it reaafirms his belief about being better than all, Djokodal simply want to win.

Trying to look cute has definitely cost Fed many matches.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I think the reason Federer lost a lot of matches to Nadal is psychological: he was scared to play someone of his level.
It's the same reason he also lost the arguably 5 closest Slam matches against Djokovic: UO10, UO11, WI14, UO15, WI19.

It seems like both Federer fans and detractors think his bad H-H record against Nadal and Djokovic are always because he is mentally weak or chokes under pressure. In fact, the most common reason cited for every loss sustained by every top player is usually ‘choking’, ‘being a mug’ and other mental issues. Most tennis matches are just won by the player who plays better on a particular day because they have more self-belief that they should win and usually because they have technique advantages on that surface and in their current form.

Federer would not have won 20 Slams and pretty much annihilated all other competition apart from Nadal and Djokovic for almost 17 years if he were mentally weak. He is supremely self-confident against most players to the point of being arrogant and not even trying to avoid their strengths - like the Delpo FH. Is it possible that Nadal is just better than Federer on slow surfaces and Djokovic is better than him on almost all surfaces except the fastest low-bouncing ones?

They both handle Federer’s strengths like his serve, his short-slice BHs, his inside-out FH etc. way better than any other player and have better movement than him. Federer‘s BH can and has been exploited by these two players from the baseline while they both don’t have any weaknesses that Federer can easily exploit. Federer used to beat them until they both developed the self-confidence that they were as good or better than him - it happened with Nadal early while it took Djokovic till late 2010 or 2011 to develop that confidence. Since then, Federer has never had the inner self-belief that he can consistently beat Djokovic and he didn‘t have it against Nadal till the AO2017 final where he played superbly and regained his mojo against Nadal. Nadal is not as quick anymore and Federer’s improved topspin BH shots and returns have nullified Nadal’s baseline advantage outside of clay. I’ve believed for a long time that Federer is unbelievably good, but was unfortunate enough to play in an era where he had two rivals that were better than him for most of their rivalry. Some would argue that it is because he is older, but I think that is a copout as Federer has no problem destroying every other rival who is more than a decade younger than him.

When a player has consistently lost close matches to another player for many years and he is out of ideas on what weakness he can exploit to change the trend, he will not suddenly be able to win close matches and it is common to ‘choke’ at crucial moments. This happens to all lower-seeded players against higher-seeded players in many matches where they cannot execute on break points, set points etc. when they are on the verge of an upset. Meanwhile, the higher seeded player expects to win and plays better under pressure. I think this is why Federer has lost many tough matches against Nadal and Djokovic because for a long time, he didn’t know what to do to beat them and his base game wasn’t good enough outside of fast courts. It is nice to see that he has turned the corner against Nadal and now, Nadal is the one without self-belief outside of clay. But, Djokovic has still proved to be a tough nut to crack on most surfaces.

If there is a psychological edge that Nadal and Djokovic had for many years, they earned it by being good enough to win many matches against Federer at his best in a way that other players could not. They had the game and so they gained the mental edge. That’s what happens when you play against a better player in rec tennis and that’s what happens on the pro tour - once a player gets the mental edge that he is on the right side of the winning trend, it’s tough to overcome.
 

beard

Legend
I agree with op... It's not about "matchup"... That word is just an excuse that Fed fans use to explain his inferiority against ATG...

Reason for many loses is just his backhand which is good but not great...

He would lose as many matches against any other great forehand constantly striking his relatively weak backhand...

Just look at Djokovic who has great backhand and exploit Fed weak side too... In their matchup I always hated Novak didn't used that tactics more, constantly as Nadal did (I know Nadal forehand is more effective, it's more powerful strike as an forehand), but he used tactics in most important points and it off course worked... Novak loves to compete against Federer fh to fh which is mistake, in my opinion, he likes to brake his strong side too...

Conclusion... Every ATG who can attack Federer's relatively weak side with interest would have advantage against him...
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
I agree with op... It's not about "matchup"... That word is just an excuse that Fed fans use to explain his inferiority against ATG...

Reason for many loses is just his backhand which is good but not great...

He would lose as many matches against any other great forehand constantly striking his relatively weak backhand...

Just look at Djokovic who has great backhand and exploit Fed weak side too... In their matchup I always hated Novak didn't used that tactics more, constantly as Nadal did (I know Nadal forehand is more effective, it's more powerful strike as an forehand), but he used tactics in most important points and it off course worked... Novak loves to compete against Federer fh to fh which is mistake, in my opinion, he likes to brake his strong side too...

Conclusion... Every ATG who can attack Federer's relatively weak side with interest would have advantage against him...
The reason Novak didn't attack there more often is because he couldn't exploit it half as well as Nadal could. Novak's backhand is a much flatter shot than Nadal's forehand, resulting in a more reliable bounce for Federer to tee up. And Novak doesn't respond to slice nearly as well as Nadal does (it's something he's still working on improving even today), so Fed had no issues using his slice to change up a baseline rally against Novak and work the point back into his favor.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
A couple of other factors that make Nadal a rough match-up for Fed:

1. Federer strings his racquet soft in the 40s on open pattern for more power on his serve and fh weapons. But this allows the ball to pocket deeper in his stringbed. Deep pocketing is ok when returning flatter high-paced balls, but the Achilles heel of a soft stringbed is that it makes it hard to control heavy high-rpm incoming balls. The deeper pocketing creates a higher torque that twists the racquet more, causing the launch angle to be out of the player’s control. Players who string tight in the 60s on denser patterns, like Blake, Davydenko, Soderling, and Djokovic, are less bothered by heavy rpm spin, and these guys had matchup advantage agsinst nadal because of it.

2. Fed likes to use his slice bh for defense. But the Achilles heel for a slicer is an opponent who hits hard with enough topspin to have good margin when hitting knee-high low balls from below net height. Players that hit relatively harder and flatter are an easier matchup for a slicer, because the lower ball neutralizes the weapon. Santoro was 7-2 vs Safin, and beat every guy to reach #1 in his era except nadal.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
A couple of other factors that make Nadal a rough match-up for Fed:

1. Federer strings his racquet soft in the 40s on open pattern for more power on his serve and fh weapons. But this allows the ball to pocket deeper in his stringbed. Deep pocketing is ok when returning flatter high-paced balls, but the Achilles heel of a soft stringbed is that it makes it hard to control heavy high-rpm incoming balls. The deeper pocketing creates a higher torque that twists the racquet more, causing the launch angle to be out of the player’s control. Players who string tight in the 60s on denser patterns, like Blake, Davydenko, Soderling, and Djokovic, are less bothered by heavy rpm spin, and these guys had matchup advantage agsinst nadal because of it.
Ah the rare quality posts that make casual perusing of the GPPD worth it - its a once in a blue moon occasion though....nice info here!
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
It’s not about bounce height. What makes Nadal’s forehand difficult for a 1hb on the rise is rough courts with difficult-to-judge bounce (clay or grass). Smooth hardcourt with predictable bounces no prob.

you're trying to explain the basics of tennis to someone who barely watched a match?
probably never played one?
but has tons of time to dig in statistics and believe that based on statistics became the master of understanding tennis?

good luck with your mission @travlerajm
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
If Nadal's advantage with Federer is hitting the topspin forehand to the one handed backhand, how come Nadal troubled Federer a lot on grass where the bounce is low?

2006-08 Federer at Wimbledon dropped 1 set in 17 matches before the final, and 6 sets in 3 matches against Nadal.

And how come Nadal has a higher win percentage against two-handers than he does against one-handers (even excluding matches vs Federer/Djokovic)?

85.1% vs non-Federer one handers
85.9% vs non-Djokovic two handers

I think the reason Federer lost a lot of matches to Nadal is psychological: he was scared to play someone of his level.

It's the same reason he also lost the arguably 5 closest Slam matches against Djokovic: UO10, UO11, WI14, UO15, WI19.

well done.
completely ignore the actual tennis.

is it a coincidence that Fed started to defeat Rafa once Rafa lost his speed?
go view some highlights of the past, see which usually-would-be-winners Rafa was retrieving, and simply sending back somehow, and crossing fingers, but either sending back with interest or hitting passing shots instead.
once he can't do this trick as much, all of a sudden he is losing.
coincidence?
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Lew watching any tennis is a myth.
Lew showcasing his complete and utter lack of understanding of tennis. It pretty much seals the deal that he has never picked up a tennis racquet.

:cool:
you're trying to explain the basics of tennis to someone who barely watched a match?
probably never played one?
but has tons of time to dig in statistics and believe that based on statistics became the master of understanding tennis?

good luck with your mission @travlerajm
Haters never miss my threads. :cool:
 
If Nadal's advantage with Federer is hitting the topspin forehand to the one handed backhand, how come Nadal troubled Federer a lot on grass where the bounce is low?

2006-08 Federer at Wimbledon dropped 1 set in 17 matches before the final, and 6 sets in 3 matches against Nadal.

And how come Nadal has a higher win percentage against two-handers than he does against one-handers (even excluding matches vs Federer/Djokovic)?

85.1% vs non-Federer one handers
85.9% vs non-Djokovic two handers

I think the reason Federer lost a lot of matches to Nadal is psychological: he was scared to play someone of his level.

It's the same reason he also lost the arguably 5 closest Slam matches against Djokovic: UO10, UO11, WI14, UO15, WI19.
2008 - 2013 is generally considered Nadal's all around surface prime. During that timeframe:

Nadal vs One handers 113-10 (91.9%)
Nadal vs Two handers 287-54 (84.4%)

images
 

Thriller

Hall of Fame
Santoro vs Safin is a match up problem. There is no explanation when looking at their careers as a whole that Santoro has a 7 - 2 lead in the H2H. Thinking about their games, you would imagine that Safin would blow Santoro off the court every time but clearly there is some kryptonite in Santoro's game that produced this anomaly.

But it is ridiculous to talk about match up problems when comparing equals. Nadal is no more a match up problem for Federer than Navratilova was for Evert. He has simply been the better player from Day 1 from the baseline on every surface. The only question has been how many cheap points can Federer get from a vastly superior serve and forecourt game. Indoors he can get tons so it has largely been no contest. On clay he can get hardly any so even when he is redlining his game e.g. Rome 2006, it might not be enough. On hardcourt and grass it is largely about who plays better on the day, and that has usually been Nadal.

Federer is the best player of all time against lefties ... not called Nadal. There is no match up problem. Nadal has been consistently over their careers been the better player. Nadal has the best W/L against the field of all time. Federer being way behind in the H2H is unremarkable ... everyone is who isn't called Djokovic.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Federer is the best player of all time against lefties ... not called Nadal. There is no match up problem. Nadal has been consistently over their careers been the better player. Nadal has the best W/L against the field of all time. Federer being way behind in the H2H is unremarkable ... everyone is who isn't called Djokovic.
The left hand advantage is another myth.

Federer has a score of 31-1 in Slams against non-Nadal lefties.
 
The left hand advantage is another myth.

Federer has a score of 31-1 in Slams against non-Nadal lefties.
Yeah those other lefties aren't anywhere near ATG level players. Not comparable. Like the one poster above saying Federer is best all time vs lefties not named Nadal. Well, no **** Federer is the GOAT. He didn't become that by losing to just any left handed hack that showed up to play. It's all small margins at the top of the game. Get a clue you bunch of dummies.
 
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