Would djokovic playing at his top level have beaten medvedev in the usopen?

D

Djokovicfan

Professional
I think medvedev has been improving over the years and in this years usopen he seemed to have finally arrived at his full playing potential. I think it might be possible that djokovic never beats medvedev again; either bc djokovic never gets his full game back, or because peak medvedev is simply that good.
 
Jokervich

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
He will beat him if they meet in the Australian Open next year, assuming Djokovic isn't completely worn out from the previous rounds. Book it.
 
MeatTornado

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
The Novak loss was two-fold. He didn't play his top level (evident by his poor serving and missing easy sitters that he never does). But also there was the rare fatigue factor from donating so many sets and the grind of getting to September in the first place.

So when we say top level, are we saying top physical shape as well? Or are we saying if he just cuts out those uncharacteristic mental mistakes but still has to play through the fatigue?
 
TennisFan3

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
MeatTornado said:
The Novak loss was two-fold. He didn't play his top level (evident by his poor serving and missing easy sitters that he never does). But also there was the rare fatigue factor from donating so many sets and the grind of getting to September in the first place.

So when we say top level, are we saying top physical shape as well? Or are we saying if he just cuts out those uncharacteristic mental mistakes but still has to play through the fatigue?
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Novak was NOT fatigued. He is NEVER tired on a tennis court. Even at this day he is the BY FAR the FITTEST ATP player.
The problem with Novak was the nerves. He succumbed to the pressure and could barely move and play freely like he does. Med was the worst opponent for such a case.

Never thought that Novak would fail to control his nerves. When he wants something he almost always gets it, and his WILL/Mental Strength is the STRONGEST EVER in the history of the game. So it was very shocking to see him collapse mentally.
 
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mwym

Professional
This is an obvious non issue.

All Djokovic needed is to take match into 4th set to win it in 5. He failed and lost it. Cause his mind underachieved, as it was too slow for the occasion - busy pondering pathetic self deluded BS about history and his own ego/vanity instead of only playing the match with it 's regular focus.

Medvedev himself admitted he was already tired and not sure to win the match if it lasted 4 or 5 sets.
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
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Raul_SJ

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
mwym said:
Medvedev himself admitted he was already tired and not sure to win the match if it lasted 4 or 5 sets.
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Med said he was cramping and could not walk when serving for the match at 5-4. That is how close Djoker came to winning this match. One break and it would have been the biggest collapse ever... Meanwhile Med needs to work on his fitness and pathetic endurance. Cramping after 3 easy sets?
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
What did Novak fans used to say about hypotheticals? Something like " Hypotheticals are for losers, Novak has wins in real life "

Guess what Medvedev won in reality. I am amazed to see every fanbase even the Fedal ones( among whom 90% we're begging for someone to stop CYGS) are trying their level best to discredit Medvedev's victory.
 
M

mr tonyz

Professional
ForehandCross said:
What did Novak fans used to say about hypotheticals? Something like " Hypotheticals are for losers, Novak has wins in real life "

Guess what Medvedev won in reality. I am amazed to see every fanbase even the Fedal ones( among whom 90% we're begging for someone to stop CYGS) are trying their level best to discredit Medvedev's victory.
Click to expand...

Would you admit that Meddy was @ his absolute best in this years AO final vs Djoker?
 
Oceans II

Oceans II

Professional
ForehandCross said:
What did Novak fans used to say about hypotheticals? Something like " Hypotheticals are for losers, Novak has wins in real life "

Guess what Medvedev won in reality. I am amazed to see every fanbase even the Fedal ones( among whom 90% we're begging for someone to stop CYGS) are trying their level best to discredit Medvedev's victory.
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No excuses. Medvedev was too good and fully deserved the win. (y) Only times I have an issue with real matches is with pre-11 (more USO10) Nole and 17-18 Nole.
 
S

SonnyT

Legend
Oh yes, Djokovic never found his groove. Just as he never did against Nadal at '20 RG; just 9 months, he did, and look what happened at '21 RG.
 
S

SonnyT

Legend
I never said that. Medvedev deserved the win, just as Nadal deserved the '20 RG title.

I'm just saying, Djokovic will beat Medvedev the next time they meet at Slam HC, just as he beat Nadal at '21 RG.

For all those Fedfans out there, there's an age difference of 9 years between Djokovic-Medvedev, considerably more than the 6 years of Federer-Djokovic.
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
SonnyT said:
I never said that. Medvedev deserved the win, just as Nadal deserved the '20 RG title.

I'm just saying, Djokovic will beat Medvedev the next time they meet at Slam HC, just as he beat Nadal at '21 RG.

For all those Fedfans out there, there's an age difference of 9 years between Djokovic-Medvedev, considerably more than the 6 years of Federer-Djokovic.
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That's more up to Medvedev than Novak at this point, thankfully.
 
M

mwym

Professional
ForehandCross said:
Guess what Medvedev won in reality. I am amazed to see every fanbase even the Fedal ones( among whom 90% we're begging for someone to stop CYGS) are trying their level best to discredit Medvedev's victory.
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Medvedev's victory is not discredited by explaining how it came to be, what made it possible.

There is another dimension to Medvedev's victory. Medvedev won by doing to Djokovic exactly what Djokovic does to his hardest opponents for years - playing to their mind's weakness at the match being played.

Djokovic knew that sooner or later he will very likely face an opponent intelligent enough to use his own recipe against him, and eventually win.

But it was Djokovic who mindfvcked his own mind and made it happen at this very match.

Clearly, mindfvcking cannot be made visible in physical reality. All those who have to 'see it to believe it' will call any explanation of how and why Medvedev won a BSing. Cause lack of general cognitive ability makes any abstract content invisible to mind suffering that lack. Sadly, for those - Medvedev played better and won, period.

Objective reality is not only it's phyisical, material part of it. Some know, some never will. And that variance among us humans is the cause of all our 'issues' and issues, these tennis ones discussed here included.
 
M

mwym

Professional
fishpiefriday said:
Simply not true. Did you not see him hitting his legs with the racquet, due to fatigue?
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His legs were 'slow' against Medvedev because his mind was slow.

Compare Djokovc RoS 5th set against Zverev (tired legs) vs 1st set against Medvedev (fresh legs).

Medvedev's serve is not that better / more unreadable than Zverev's. It was Djokovic mind which was at it's regular focus = fast against Zverev and destracted by GOAT vanity BS = slow against Medvedev.

Surely he will hit his legs, ehat else. He is no Jung and no Froyd to be able to perform self observation & on the spot self psycho analyses at that moment. And hit his own head or slap his own face.
 
Omega_7000

Omega_7000

Legend
Jokervich said:
He will beat him if they meet in the Australian Open next year, assuming Djokovic isn't completely worn out from the previous rounds. Book it.
Click to expand...

Where can one book it? Do you have your own website to book it? Are you gambling your own life savings to book it?
 
G

goldengate14

Professional
Jokervich said:
He will beat him if they meet in the Australian Open next year, assuming Djokovic isn't completely worn out from the previous rounds. Book it.
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Djokovic is finished winnig slams. Mentally he has hit the wall and will not bounce back. He did not get the goals he set himself a couple of years ago which he stated were slam record and olympics before he spent more time with his family. He has missed out on both plus lost his chace at a CYGS so that is 3 failures in a month. Plus the clear evidence is he is now a step slower and has stamina issues 4 months is too big a gap for him to physically not decline more.
Mededev has got his slam so nerves wont be an issue and his slam win will help Zverev as well. Ao will be won by one of those two.
Nadal is in same boat as Djokovic except he is so dominant on clay FO2022 is one more shot for Nadal. But the BIg 3 era is all but over now
 
Turning Pro

Turning Pro

Hall of Fame
Med finally got the monkey off his back by winning his 1st slam. Now it will be MUCH harder for Djokovic to beat him again at a HC slam (yes even the AO).

IF anything Med got scared at the Ao21 and played his worst level but no more.
 
TheAssassin

TheAssassin

Legend
Maybe he would have outlasted or outclutched the guy on another day, you never know. But it's partially his own fault for dropping a lot of sets in previous rounds, and Medvedev certainly wasn't going down without a huge, marathon fight that day at least. Shame we lost out on what could have been a final for the ages. Still a tournament to remember for many reasons though.

Got to say it's cute that majority of those who crapped and gave up permanently on Mad Lad after AO like he was the worst finalist of all time have done a complete U turn now. Near future match ups remain on Novak's racquet. Certainly in best of five at least.
 
C

ChrEa8

New User
This discussion doesn't make any sense to me.

Tennis is a dynamic game, which means you cannot change just one player's game and keep the other one's game intact. Every player adapts to the other player all the time. So if you somehow invent a time machine and can make Djokovic play better than he did, Medvedev's game will also change. And as each match is a unique dynamic event, you cannot take Djokovic's game from some other match in history and plant into another match. His game in those matches was his game in those matches. It's not something you can just isolate and take out to be planted into another match.

And as someone already pointed out, there is so much more happening below the surface that it makes all this even more absurd to discuss.

Even more absurd is to start speculating about future matches yet to happen and use speculated results as basis for discussing past matches.
 
S

SonnyT

Legend
Medvedev had such an easy draw, so he was much fresher than Djokovic for final. Djokovic had a very difficult draw, with Nishikori, Brooksby, Berrett and Zverev all more difficult than any of Med's opponents.
 
RF-18

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
We have to give credit where it's due and that is that Medvedev was a level above him in pretty much every aspect of the game and Djokovic couldn't meet those standards on the day. He wasn't up to it and Medvedev didn't let him off the hook. Many player would give Djoko a look to pounce on but this day there wasn't any and Medvedev deserves every bit of credit for showing up like he did.
 
P

Pass750

Professional
TennisFan3 said:
Novak was NOT fatigued. He is NEVER tired on a tennis court. Even at this day he is the BY FAR the FITTEST ATP player.
The problem with Novak was the nerves. He succumbed to the pressure and could barely move and play freely like he does. Med was the worst opponent for such a case.

Never thought that Novak would fail to control his nerves. When he wants something he almost always gets it, and his will is the STRONGEST EVER in the history of the game. So it was very shocking to see him collapse mentally.
Click to expand...
100%, it was a total mental meltdown. Medvedev did play great though.
 
G

GGWAW

Rookie
great analysis from the guy who is supporting Gilles Cervara (Danil coach) on stats

Key analysis
1. if you look at stats Djoko at the USO, he wasn't the best player from the baseline - same # of points won has the opponent (50% of win of rallies >3 shots); he won only thanks to extremely good serving on key points
2. in the past, Danil was loosing to djoko 55% of points with more than 5 shots X-court
3. Danil best serve zone

=> Key message to Medvedev (Gilles - he is not sure if / how it was communicated to Danil)
Plan A - you can beat him on a x-court baseline rally, esp. considering your current baseline level
Plan B - if it doesn't work, then go down the line

sorry it's in French
 
Pheasant

Pheasant

Legend
Djoker was only fatigued, due to the pressure. Djoker played grinding tennis at the FO and he didn’t look one bit fatigued in the final. Djoker dropped 6 sets in the last 4 matches of that tourney to raise the trophy, including a pair of comebacks from 2-0 down.

Djoker doesn’t get tired from extra sets alone. The pressure of the CYGS crippled him. He wasn’t quite himself during the final.

With that being said, I think Djoker without the pressure of the CYGS wins this in 5
 
ttwreader

ttwreader

Hall of Fame
Djoker had to beaten Twitter, Facebook, Instagram users, Media interviewers, Olympic villagers, TTW posters,... so when he played Med, he just played his C level.
 
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S

Sampras-Bruguera 1993

Legend
Yea. Djoker could hardly move. If he was fully fit and med didn’t have a country club draw, Djoker most likely wins in 4. Med really didn’t play anything absurd level wise at the open. He just had more in the tank in the end due to how the draw played out
 
D

Deleted member 762343

Guest
Define top level. With the level he displayed against Berrettini ? He would have destroyed him in 4 sets at the very least.
 
T

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
Imperator said:
Define top level. With the level he displayed against Berrettini ? He would have destroyed him in 4 sets at the very least.
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What does "destroy" mean here? I think he would have a significantly tougher time with Medvedev than he did with Berrettini. Those two are just in a completely different league on hard courts (Berrettini's never even made a hard court final at any level on the ATP tour!). Medvedev's first serve isn't quite as destructive as Berr's, but every other part of his game is way better, way more dynamic. Novak would not be nearly as comfortable in rallies as he was against Berrettini nor would he have as easy a time on his own serve games.

He did return wonderfully against Matteo, though, after the first set.
 
weakera

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
He was completely lost out there and he didn't even play badly. Medvedev just punched him in the mouth and he had no response. And that was his "I'm going to play like it's the last match if my career" mode... yikes.
 
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