Berrettini describes pre-Wimbledon final emotional breakdown
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Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
I have a bit more respect for Berrettini than I do the other NextGens bc he really made it out of the mud himself. This is not an academy player. Nor was he a guy with all the resources like Tsits, Zverev, Rublev, etc. who was born into tennis. Missing a BH and his general lack of feel are no coincidence. He basically is the biggest overachiever on the entire ATP Tour.
Berrettini and his brother didn’t even have a real coach until age 14…and he got absolutely jack sh-t support from the Italian federation, which is why he basically didn’t play anything but ITF Futures until he turned 22 in 2018.
it’s a testament to his immense arm talent that his serve and FH are top 5 on the current ATP tour, and he has made genuinely large improvements to his game since first appearing on the scene in 2019. It’s criminal that people just call him awful, he’s improved a lot relative to what he was. Definition of a late bloomer.
so no, he’s no ATG, he’s 25 which is not too young anymore, and his deficiencies and limitations are well documented. I don’t particularly like his on court demeanor or game, but he cops way too much hate for what he is. It’s not his fault that no one else (like the uber privileged tennis royalty born with a racket in their hand and a full time coach since age 3 that make up the bulk of NextGen) was good enough to beat him on grass this year.
https://www.tennismajors.com/our-fe...coach-special-relationship-rising-336391.html
Berrettini and his brother didn’t even have a real coach until age 14…and he got absolutely jack sh-t support from the Italian federation, which is why he basically didn’t play anything but ITF Futures until he turned 22 in 2018.
it’s a testament to his immense arm talent that his serve and FH are top 5 on the current ATP tour, and he has made genuinely large improvements to his game since first appearing on the scene in 2019. It’s criminal that people just call him awful, he’s improved a lot relative to what he was. Definition of a late bloomer.
so no, he’s no ATG, he’s 25 which is not too young anymore, and his deficiencies and limitations are well documented. I don’t particularly like his on court demeanor or game, but he cops way too much hate for what he is. It’s not his fault that no one else (like the uber privileged tennis royalty born with a racket in their hand and a full time coach since age 3 that make up the bulk of NextGen) was good enough to beat him on grass this year.
https://www.tennismajors.com/our-fe...coach-special-relationship-rising-336391.html
abmk
Bionic Poster
Lol. Roddick was pathetic in that match. I was going to give @NatF a pass on this one, but since you felt the need to tag me, let's take a deeper look. Roddick got absolutely destroyed, making only 19 winners and 16 unforced errors on grass, in a best of 5 match, and faster grass than 2021 at that. 19/175 (points) means he only made a winner 10.86% of the time.Compared to Berrettini who made a winner (57/276) 20.65% of the time. Not to mention that Roddick could only win 21% of return points, which is horrid, compared to Berretini at 31%. The only significant thing Roddick did better than Berrettini was make less errors 9.1% (16/175) compared to Berrettini at 17.4% (48/276 ) but considering how little winners he hit, that's not saying much. It amazes me the extent that some of you go to bolster Federer's competition, even a performance as terrible as that one. Hell, even Gonzalez and Kiefer did better than he did. Lol
Roddick forced a much higher% of errors than Berretini did. He forced 43 errors from fed in 175 points of the match. (24.57%)
Berretini forced 53 errors from Djokovic out of 201 points (19.2%)
So overall, Roddick had ~5% less winners+errors forced to Berretini and 10% lesser UEs vs a much better opponent.
So if Roddick was pathetic by your standards, Berretini was significantly worse than pathetic.
Roddick's performance wasn't good by any means, but it sure as hell was significantly better than Berrettini's.
Roddick's AM is a full 4% points above Berretinni's vs a significantly better opponent. But Roddick's performance was pathetic while berretinni was really good?
Dude, are you serious. Have a look at yourself in the mirror!
Its pathetic how much you big up Berrettini and then accuse fed fans of bigging up Fed's competition when we're just showing the reality.
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Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
Anyone that saw Berry making the SFs two years after this match (or ever) and cracking the top 10 either has a genius eye for tennis or is full of it. Good for him and he’s one of the nicest people on tour with the fans.
#BerrettiniOpen
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Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
It is incredible how many balls he sends into the net though. A 2 minute perusal there I counted 5, lol.
I think he has inconsistent launch angles due to his height and grip — and the fact that he apparently grew up on clay courts in Italy where the bounce is as high as a trampoline. You can see the genuinely Western (I think it’s western - some say semi western but I see more extreme, full western) grip he uses which gives him that venomous FH topspin but on anything lower than his waist, that grip becomes his worst enemy. It can’t help that he’s nearly 6’6” and has poor flexibility, but more than anything I think he’s a product of his environment, which is a massive kid who grew up tall on high bouncing surfaces, ran around his BH whenever possible, and never really had to hit low balls often. No coincidence that his first two titles and first big win (over Zverev in 2019) was on clay either. He’s like a FH heavy claycourter such as Ruud/Courier in a giant Italian body with a cannon for a right arm.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
He looks like a harder hitting version of a club hacker.
Amazing how rapidly both players rose in the subsequent two years. I wonder what each thought of the others game and potential after that match.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Not to mention he took a set off Djokovic. Not bad for a player who supposedly lost before he walked onto the court.
RS
Bionic Poster
Was Federer a 10/10? Maybe if Nadal of the RG 08 final was a strong 10/10 this could be a weak 10/10.
RS
Bionic Poster
What would you give Nadal of RG 2007/2010 finals?
RS
Bionic Poster
So bar maybe FO 2008 maybe Federer was equal or a tiny bit better than all other versions.
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NatF
Bionic Poster
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Some cry before matches (Berrettini), some during matches (Djokovic) and some after matches (Federer). And some never cry at all (Nadal). What it tells us?
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RS
Bionic Poster
It is not just you I have heard arguments for 2003-2006 Federer on grass and a peak Borg on clay not being too far off a peak Nadal on clay.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Well Fed won 91% of his matches in 2017 but I don't consider that a prime year from him, Fed was pretty dominant outside of Djokovic in 2015 but I don't consider that prime either. Results are often indicative of form and I guess "prime" but not always IMO. I don't consider 2019'Dal better or prime over say 2007 or 2011'Dal because he was #1 and won two slams to one to give another example. IMO you could consider Wimby 2018-AO 2019 prime Djokovic but afterwards I think there has been a clear drop off in his level of play. He's had to win ugly in a lot of matches since then (particularly this year) which I just don't think he'd need to do if he was actually in his prime.
And I heavily disagree that he was really good...the stats actually favour Roddick on the whole despite playing a guy that was playing much better than Djokovic was and posing much more difficult questions and Roddick wasn't good in his final - more mediocre and suffering from poor shot selection and tactics.
There's an obvious air of bragging and smugness to some of your posts recently mate. We all do it from time to time.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Meh, whether it's clear or slight Roddick was better IMO. His main issue was being so predictable and playing his approaches a bit too safely to the Fed's backhand - not really a problem against Berr. Plus I actually expect Roddick's superior movement and backhand to give him an advantage in neutral rallies. Berrettini was hitting his forehand bigger in 2021 and hit more winners but he also hit a lot more errors while Roddick forced more errors with his. Fed's movement in 2005 was also quite ridiculous and he was hitting a much heavier and more potent ball than Djokovic, I don't think Berrettini would have the opportunity to hit nearly as many winners agaisnt Fed as he did Djokovic.
RS
Bionic Poster
Pete is considered up at that level by some but his fans would rather fight it out with Federer fans rather than make that case
I don’t really have a take but it is good to see the points from both sides on why people think one was playing better than the other.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Dude, even Djokovic won 3 games in 2 sets in USO 13 final. His performance in USO 13 final was significantly better than Berretini in Wim 21 final. Ditto for Roddick in USO 06 final.
What your post ignores is Roddick/Djokovic winning a set each with excellent play and another close set with some pretty good play.
Berretini wasn't even that good in the set that he won in Wim 21 final. Could've easily gone down 2-6 in that set (had atleast 1 SP against him). Some good fight from there, but not that high a level either,
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NatF
Bionic Poster
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
But there is a difference from an outlier like 2017 where he won 91% of his matches (52-5) over a few months (Jan-April, June-July, August-November) versus a player who went 186-15 over the course of 3 years and won 87.7% of his matches. That's not an outlier and shows a sustained high level over a much longer period of time. Therefore, after looking at it closely I believe he was still in his prime.
Well Roddick had been in Slam finals before, had won a Slam, and Berrettini was in his 1st. Roddick's tactics in that match is why he got destroyed so badly and not sure what Goldfine was thinking having him come to net so much and off poor approach shots at that. Federer hammered him. He should have stuck to what worked so well in 2004 where he had Federer on the ropes and used his serve and forehand. That's why it wasn't a good performance in my eyes, especially for a player who was ranked #1 and been in this position before. Berrettini made quite a bit of errors but he went after his shots, and used his serve and forehand to at least make Djokovic work for it.
Ok well I guess we all are guilty of bragging about our favorite player from time to time.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
NatF
Bionic Poster
Roddick's tale is one of tragedy and poor decisions this is true. Too be fair Federer's backhand was fire that match, ridiculous off the pass. Obviously once he realised it wasn't work he should have changed it up but I think as an initial strategy it wasn't the worst idea.
I think Covid muddies those numbers for Djokovic a bit to be fair, he's played quite selectively in 20/21 (like Fed in 2017) if he played a fuller calendar his numbers would be worse for sure. Like I said for me results are part of it but not all, maybe I just rate Djokovic's prime a bit higher than you do?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Well Wawrinka is clearly a much better player than Berrettini.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Roddick's tale is one of tragedy and poor decisions this is true. Too be fair Federer's backhand was fire that match, ridiculous off the pass. Obviously once he realised it wasn't work he should have changed it up but I think as an initial strategy it wasn't the worst idea.
I think Covid muddies those numbers for Djokovic a bit to be fair, he's played quite selectively in 20/21 (like Fed in 2017) if he played a fuller calendar his numbers would be worse for sure. Like I said for me results are part of it but not all, maybe I just rate Djokovic's prime a bit higher than you do?
Well Federer's whole game was fire in this match but he was fire in 2004 as well. I think 2004 and 2005 are his highest levels at Wimbledon personally. Roddick just didn't have a good gameplan at all and it was like he was lost out there with all those bad approaches. Volleying was never Roddick's strength but the balls just weren't deep or angled enough to be approaching on Federer like that.
Well he started off 2020 at 18-0 before covid and he was going to probably do more damage if his momentum wasn't halted. He has played selectively, especially in 2021, but was going to play a fuller schedule last year.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
Standard TTW English.
Does someone remember the first Wim final of David Nalbandian, how nervous he was in front of the new intimidating Centre Court? Or Ilie Nastase? Or Marin Cicic? Or Kevin Curren? Or champions like Pete Sampras, Frank Sedgman, Jaroslav Drobny? Or Ashley Cooper, Neale Fraser, Rod Laver, Chuck McKinley, Andy Murray and many other champions?
NatF
Bionic Poster
Fed's grass season in 2004 was probably his best, I think he didn't hit top form in the beginning of the final - partly due to the sheer power from Roddick but his game clicked in a big way in the third and fourth. I'd probably put 2005/2003 as his best at Wimbledon but I do love 2004 as well. I think part of the problem was confidence in 2005, he was trying to execute a bit of an alien gameplan and it was the wrong gameplan and the execution wasn't good enough. Mac was complaining that he was getting too close to the net which was giving Fed a bit more room to work with on the pass. There were moments with pretty good approaches and shots that Fed just returned with sheer brilliance though. Like I said I think a worse opponent would have given Roddick much more to get his teeth into, the quality of ball coming from the Fed racket didn't give Arod many chances to attack.
Man we're just not going to agree on Djokovic, it seems so obvious to me that his play has dimished. I feel like actual prime Djokovic rolls through the likes of Mussetti, Berrettini, Tsitipas, Zverev etc...much more easily. He had so many drops of intensity that cost him sets this year, this happened in prior years as well but not as much IMO.
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
No player prime or not will just roll over people all the time. Are you already forgetting Djokovic had Musetti type of matches even in the years he was considered at his peak? Simon AO 16, Lopez USO 15, Agut FO 16,I can name many matches more. Federer also had same type of matches were he struggled.
It's such a pointless argument cause no past version of any player was just rolling over people all the time, you always had matches where you have to fight hard to win cause you are not on your best game that day.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Think it's been more regular this year. Quality of hitting and movement just isn't the same IMO.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
Lopez US15 was closer than it looks on paper. Feliciano was playing incredible tennis for large stretches of that match, and it could easily have gone the distance. It was an exciting match with some nice display of different brands of tennis
That said, I think Novak's form this year would not have won him 3 slams in a year like for instance the mentioned 2015.
It's true that Djokovic was playing at a higher level generally from the baseline in his physical prime, but Djokovic nowadays is generally better in the big moments. E.g. 2012 Djokovic played incredibly in the Olympics and US Open and then wilted in the final moments.
Younger Djokovic had quite a lot of underperformances in key moments at slams, especially in 2012-14. I can't imagine that 2019-2021 Djokovic would ever not win the 2014 US Open against Nishikori and Cilic, for example.
The accumulation of success in big moments definitely counts for a lot if you can maintain your physical level and improve shots that were weaker when you were younger (serve is the obvious one for Djokovic; BH for Federer/Nadal).
NatF
Bionic Poster
It's true that mentally Djokovic was poor at times in that spell I also think the competition in those years was a lot strong though as well which factors in too. Djokovic IMO is mentally bolstered by having the physical edge over his opponents, which helps him when he goes behind in a match etc...when the chips are down he relies on physicality more than shotmaking IMO (with some notable exceptions). He'd have to rely on shotmaking in those years which is lower percentage and more likely to end in defeat.
Obviously 2019/2020 Djokovic didn't go anywhere at the USO so I assume you mean if he got to that position? It's possible that he doesn't underperform but then I'm not sure he does based on thi year, unless we're chalked it all up to the CYGS.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Lopez US15 was closer than it looks on paper. Feliciano was playing incredible tennis for large stretches of that match, and it could easily have gone the distance. It was an exciting match with some nice display of different brands of tennis
That said, I think Novak's form this year would not have won him 3 slams in a year like for instance the mentioned 2015.
And Musetti, Tsitsi etc were playing bad tennis to win their sets or?
The strength of competition, especially on clay, obviously is part of why Djokovic won fewer slams in that period. 2011-2013 is probably the most competitive period in ATP history at the absolute top of the game. Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Murray all at the top + high level spoilers in the mix. You can maybe extend that to mid-2014, before Nadal's drop off.
Equally, he only won 3/12. Even with tough competition, he should've won a higher percentage than that as the #1 ranked player for most of the period, even if was just an extra 1 or 2.
Djokovic 2018-2021 has only lost 3 matches at GS SF/F stage, and they were against Thiem and Rafa at RG and Medvedev at the USO (i.e. the best players at their best slam). Not a single Nishikori type loss, and only 1 big match loss on grass/hard.
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
Games won to loss isn’t always a great metric but I get the point you make.
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
Not bad tennis but Djokovic playing at his best shouldn’t end 2 sets to love down vs Musetti or Tpas.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
2004 proved Roddick could hang with peak Federer though. He just didn't bring that level of ballstriking in 2005 and his strategy wasn't good enough.
I don't know about his play has diminished but he's not at his peak. I think we all see that. Someone who went 94% in 12 Slams from 2018 Wimbledon to 2021 USO just isn't "past it" in my view. Agree to disagree on this.
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Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
At least, he did not hyperventilate."I had knots in my stomach. I tried to force myself to eat, but it was hard to deal with pressure. I was in the locker room, and there were only Novak and me. He had already played over 30 Major finals and was more used to it than me; he could surely feel the tension. He was relaxing with music in his headphones, and I was there like, 'I can not even eat some rice. How am I supposed to play?' I remember my hands were sweating, I could not eat, and my head started spinning when I talked to my team."
NextGen is providing some stiff competition, would you agree?
NatF
Bionic Poster
Past it is a bit harsher than I meant but sure agree to disagree.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
We need a Berrettini smiles audio.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
ghostofMecir
Legend
Yes because taking 2004 or 2009 Fed to four and five is the same as Berrittini going four with 2021 Djokovic
Wait— @RF-18 said Medvedev was the greatest baseliner ever? Lool
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