Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
I dont think he IS ranked. LOL. Hes a terrible indoor player. Always has been. 2010 was decent though. Hell I would probably put Corretja over him. He at least has a year end title. Coincidently over Nadal's coach
no bounce, no bullHis poor indoor record shows one D nature of his game. If ball doesn't bounce high enough - it's game over for him..
Sampras was defeated on carpet and on the indoor hard court against players such as Courier, Chang, Muster, Corretja, Kuerten, among others.I dont think he IS ranked. LOL. Hes a terrible indoor player. Always has been. 2010 was decent though. Hell I would probably put Corretja over him. He at least has a year end title. Coincidently over Nadal's coach
He should have beat Fed in 2010 at that WTF. Blew that one. If he would have won that that would have been one of the greatest seasons ever
Fed is 5-1 on indoor hard against Nadal and Djokovic is 4-2 on indoor hard against Nadal.
I take it you didn't see what happened to Nadal at the WTF 2009 then, when he was in the same group as Davydenko.
I missed that —good catch. 1-1 then.
There must be an ATG who is worse on indoor hard courts than Nadal. He is usually a solid #2 in any ranking and so, I doubt that he is the #1 worst ATG on indoor hard courts.
To be fair on the late ‘70s and ‘80s, more matches were played indoor than anywhere else.
Since no slams are played indoors, it probably doesn’t really matter that much, but if we want to take a really granular look at this, Nadal just does not play well in a setting that’s devoid of any outside elements in which the conditions are the most perfect and ball striking is at its absolute premium. That’s not a good thing.
not even close in the end. fed was clearly outplaying Nadal from the ground for almost the whole match in the YEC 2010 final. only fed was returning meh in 1st set and below par in 2nd set. once fed found the return range in the 3rd set, it was finnish for Nadal.
I think what bothers him is not the perfect conditions, but the fast and low bouncing surfaces that are prevalent in the Indoor season. His topspin is somewhat neutralized by the low bounce and he can no longer hit without good depth or just to the middle of the court while standing well behind the baseline and bother any opponents. He also struggles to break serve as often as he does on other surfaces by standing well back - when he tries to stand in like he does today, he misses too many returns to be effective. Compared to many other ATGs, he doesn’t have a big serve either and so the fast surface doesn’t help him as much to hold serve easily as it does other big servers.To be fair on the late ‘70s and ‘80s, more matches were played indoor than anywhere else.
Since no slams are played indoors, it probably doesn’t really matter that much, but if we want to take a really granular look at this, Nadal just does not play well in a setting that’s devoid of any outside elements in which the conditions are the most perfect and ball striking is at its absolute premium. That’s not a good thing.
Indoor HC tennis isn’t important.
Correct.Yes. It hasn't been since post Madrid 2005.
2nd list is some decent trolling but 1st list is unironically totally on point. I might take Tsonga off it but other than that it’s bulletproofOk, most people have laughed it off but I’ll actually try to do this…setting the cut-off at OE since almost every great player from the 50s-mid 60s and earlier was more accomplished indoors…
Clearly better:
Federer
Sampras
McEnroe
Djokovic
Becker
Murray
Krajicek
Connors
Laver
Rosewall
Roche
Lendl
Nalby
Edberg
Borg
Stich
Safin
Delpo
Tsonga
Kuerten
Courier
Davydenko
Agassi
Zverev (sorry, I hate it too).
Hewitt
Rusedski
Henman
Ivanisevic
Kafelnikov
Corretja
Enqvist
Nastase
Tanner
Newcombe
Smith
Medvedev
Ashe
Gerulaitis
Similar level/arguably better in some cases:
Roddick
Korda
Dimitrov
Wilander
Mayotte
Berdych
Ferrer
Gottfried
Fibak
Gilbert
Rosset
Mayer
Soderling
Kriek
Dibbs
Haas
Grosjean
Jarryd
Chang
Ferreira
Solomon
Larsson
Stockton
Tsits
Forget (almost forgot )
Arguably FAA if he wins Paris…
Probably a few I’m leaving out…as it stands now, Nadal is borderline Top 50 in the OE at best.
When Nadal’s often injured and has 22 majors who cares.....
But this is totally propaganda, mate, there's a thread and everything.Career Inflation Era.
Pain released out my system.Career Inflation Era.
2nd list is some decent trolling but 1st list is unironically totally on point. I might take Tsonga off it but other than that it’s bulletproof
It was epic.I still remember a certain Nadal fan arguing his 2019 Davis Cup efforts was up there with the YEC
It was epic.
ASE CIE mediocre average decent weak above average good very good bad very bad great GOATAmazing what counts for epic in the CIE.
Not many, especially if Rafa has only 2 indoor titles.How many overall ATGs are behind Rafa indoors?
Not many, especially if Rafa has only 2 indoor titles.
Let's put it this way. I've always felt using even surface distribution to bring down a certain player a pretty recent invention as back in the days when Sampras won mostly on grass and fast hard and was pretty mediocre on clay and Laver won most slams on grass people had no qualms calling them the greatest. Also why should a player be discredited because he's too dominant on a surface that he won on it enough to make up the slam total? I would argue being THAT dominant is even harder than having an equal distribution. So to me detractors of Nadal using his indoors record better prove to me it's more impressive to have a better record indoors than being as dominant on clay as he is to convince me that the indoors record is such a glaring hole.
That said, Nadal fans also shouldn't get too cocky as the slam total is the only thing going for him right now. They should be honest about the WTF - I'd reckon most players value it as the second most important tournament after slams and even if it's after the Olympic Gold for some I doubt one singles Gold would be enough to offset five WTFs from Djokovic - the disparity is just too great. Nadal is also behind in terms of Masters with Djokovic having double career golden masters (sure all-surface versatility is not the end-all-be-all but still having the complete set of Masters is impressive in its own right).
In other words, I wish people could just shut up about the "skew", quit downplaying the WTF and be more objective in general, but one can only hope.
I think what bothers him is not the perfect conditions, but the fast and low bouncing surfaces that are prevalent in the Indoor season. His topspin is somewhat neutralized by the low bounce and he can no longer hit without good depth or just to the middle of the court while standing well behind the baseline and bother any opponents. He also struggles to break serve as often as he does on other surfaces by standing well back - when he tries to stand in like he does today, he misses too many returns to be effective. Compared to many other ATGs, he doesn’t have a big serve either and so the fast surface doesn’t help him as much to hold serve easily as it does other big servers.
He picked a style of play that is perfect for slow courts and high bouncing surfaces while being bad for low bouncing, fast courts. That’s why it is hard to pick him as the GOAT unless he has a huge Slam title lead compared to someone like Djokovic who has a much more balanced game suited for all surfaces. Djokovic has a bigger serve, can return on the rise against big servers, can rally on the rise and take time away from oppponents, can hit flatter when needed to take advantage of the fast surface, has incredible precision to hit closer to the sidelines or with depth to bother opponents etc. He has also become pretty effective coming to the net to end points late in his career.
Yeah, he can be a dangerous floater indoors for guys not in best form but sooner or later...Nadal is the King of taking big scalps at the Indoor ATP Finals:
Nadal beat Djokovic x2
Nadal beat Wawrinka x2
Nadal beat Murray x2
Nadal beat Tsitsipas x2
Nadal beat Federer
Nadal beat Medvedev
Nadal beat Rublev
Ewww...Yeah, he can be a dangerous floater indoors for guys not in best form but sooner or later...
I didn't read this entire thread so may repeat things others have said. My opinion is that Nadal is the GOAT "Outdoors ATP player" as he won 90 Outdoor ATP titles (972-173, 84.89%) and has positive H2H virtually against everyone Outdoors. In addition, old school tennis required many more BO5 finals and I'm not fully convinced that the 2010 ATP Finals would've resulted in a Fed win if it was Bo5 instead of Bo3. Moreover, Fed once blew a 2-0 lead against Nalbandian in a BO5 ATP Final so not impossible for Nadal to have won from 1-2 down. Overall, yes indoors wasn't Nadal's strong suit and that is part of my rationale why I would have difficulty rating him higher than Laver when you favor all of their accomplishments. Sorry to those 3 Nadal fans that usually troll me.
2010 Nadal faded away in that third set, because the match with Murray took a lot of him. Federer was running away with it at that point, and Nadal really isn't known for coming back from 2-1 down against his main rivals. In a best of five with Federer, they are split 3-3 each in the fifth set. As for Nalbandian in 2005, Federer wasn't really going to play that year, he had not played any tennis due to the ankle injury he had, forcing him to miss out Madrid and Paris masters, he was on crutches just a short while earlier. It still took a fifth set from a zoning Nalbandian who is very good indoors to win....In 2010, Federer was not coming back from an injury, he was building momentum at the time, having won in Basel, don't think the comparisons are ideal personally.
I have a very simplistic view that the "mental aspect" plays a major role in Sports and performance in general. This is why Djokovic himself admitted that he got Becker as a coach because he felt to overtake both Fed and Nadal, he needed that extra mental toughness. Nadal had won his last 3 BO5 matches (HC, Grass, Clay) coming into that Final against Fed and had won 6 out of the last 7 against Fed. After Fed lost the 2nd set in that 2010 ATP FInal he now must think, "Now I need to win 2 more sets against the guy who beat me 6 out of the last 7. We'll never know what would've happened if it was Bo5 instead of Bo3. Unfortunately, the same can be said about many other tournaments that were watered down from Bo5 to Bo3.
It still doesn't change the point that Nadal had played a long match the day before against Murray, and was exhausted in that third set, which is why Federer ran all over him. Nadal had all the momentum heading into the third set also, it was a one set match at that point, but Rafa couldn't keep up the intensity. Everyone pointed to Murray taking away his legs, and there being no rest day in between. Those slams matches you mention, Nadal at least had one day to rest before the final, that was not going happen here. He had already played Djokovic, Roddick and Murray in a row, he was feeling it. So, no, I don't think a tired Nadal was beating him in a best of five, when on a surface more suited to his game, in Madrid 2009 on clay, he could not do anything to Federer after a similar long match.
If Fed starts making UE errors, you'll be surprised how a second wind comes. My favorite NBA player was Isiah Thomas and just watch what he did in Game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals against the Lakers with one leg. The guy scored 43 points (including 25 in 1 quarter) with an injured ankle and of course you have Michael Jordan in the "Flu game." Not impossible for an athlete to overcome physical difficulty with mental strength. In fact, how many thought Nadal would win the 2022 AO Final after losing the first two sets to Med? These feats are usually improbable but not impossible.
He did win. He won.He did won the Laver Cup.
Well, considering Nadal's record when trailing 2-1 down in sets in slams leaving a lot to be desired, and that Federer is in fact 3-3 with Nadal in the fifth set, and Nadal feeling it in the legs, I don't personally agree.
You mentioned Medvedev 2022....do you know the last time Nadal did that was in W 2007 against Youzhny, which was 15 years earlier? It's not something that is part of the pattern for Nadal, it is a very rare thing indeed. He is a better front runner.
Context is always important in comparative analysis. We are talking Nadal vs Fed here. Fed lost his last 3 Bo5 matches and 6 out of the last 7 to Nadal coming into Final. Perhaps he loses in two straight sets if he knew entering that match, he needed to win 3 out of 5 against Nadal. Remember, Fed blew 2 Championship points in a Bo5 Rome Final against Nadal. Moreover, was 3-8 against Nadal in BO5 which included a very fortunate win in the 2005 Miami Final. Nonetheless, the result still remains a Fed win.