Who was the better hard-court player, 2004 Andre Agassi or 2023 Novak Djokovic?

Who was the better hard-court player, 2004 Andre Agassi or 2023 Novak Djokovic?

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Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
I think a concept that a lot of people struggle with is the idea that once you cross a certain threshold, what differentiates you from other ATGs is consistency more than your ability to hit a high top level. If this was not the case, H2H’s between ATG’s would be way more lopsided than they are.

So the notion that Agassi performed about as well as Djokovic in some places (although not most) should not be too surprising. He was a very good player who still maintained a high level on hard courts, even if he didn’t have the same day-to-day consistency that Djokovic now has.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Who was better athletically at the AO?

Injured Djokovic or fully fit Agassi?
Click to expand...
Fully fit Agassi got aced 33 times in the SF against an opponent with a relatively low 1st serve percentage. Injured or not, it's not happening against Djokovic with his height and reach advantage.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
Milanez82 said:
Obviously not Agassi since there was nothing peak about Safin that year and Agassi beat a wc, then qualifier, then unseeded Enqvist, 13th seed Schriachpan in 4th rd(a player that never went past 4th rd in a slam), then no9 seed Grosjean with a retirement and then lost to Safin who was ranked 86th who beside getting demolished by Federer 3-0 in the final, also gets dumped out early in next 2 hardcourt masters.
Click to expand...

safin was playing at peak level in QF/SF/part of final at the AO, winning Paris/Madrid and then at the YEC.
what is obvious is you didn't follow nor do you know stuff about 2004.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
Where did I say it was a bad look though? Roddick was the reigning USO champ. If anything, I implied that Alcaraz was superior to Roddick at that, also a reigning USO champ. In fact, I would say both Zverev and Alcaraz were superior to Fish and Roddick. Both guys did damage at the USO. What about Fish and Roddick?
Click to expand...
At the USO Roddick lost a coinflip match with a massive dominance ratio advantage against a huge server because he was unclutch. Alcaraz got exposed by Midvedev a round later - but massive difference lol. Alcaraz went three sets every frickin round in Cincy btw where as Roddick dropped just one set on the way the SF in a TB. But sure Alcaraz was superior. Roddick was actually in great form that summer, he just had a freak loss at the USO. He was quite clearly playing better than Alcaraz and certainly Zverev lol. Also I love how Zverev losing in straights in the QF is doing damage but Roddick losing in five isn't. I guess beating Sinner in five is a nice win but Roddick was handing out bakery products, that's difference between being ranked #2 and #12 in the draw...
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
Fully fit Agassi got aced 33 times in the SF against an opponent with a relatively low 1st serve percentage. Injured or not, it's not happening against Djokovic with his height and reach advantage.
Click to expand...
Yeah and made up for it with a stunning 57.1 win rate on returns in play. This was a strategical difference of his through his entire career, give up aces but really hit through the ball on return when he got the opportunity.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
Fully fit Agassi got aced 33 times in the SF against an opponent with a relatively low 1st serve percentage. Injured or not, it's not happening against Djokovic with his height and reach advantage.
Click to expand...

obviously not. since 23 djokovic is going to lose in 4 sets tops vs peak Safin and get outhit by safin badly.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
That was my response when I read the predictable responses in here. :sneaky:

So you believe Agassi who pulled out of Wimbledon and Indianapolis with a hip injury right before Canada and Cincy, and struggled against Roddick and Fish, both who were upset at the USO, is going to beat much younger #1 Alcaraz who is far superior physically? Some of you are stuck in time.
Click to expand...
You're overrating Alcaraz, is my point. The guy should've put away a struggling Djokovic and failed to do so. And let's not pretend like Carlos himself didn't struggle against all kinds of players during the Summer HC season.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
At the USO Roddick lost a coinflip match with a massive dominance ratio advantage against a huge server because he was unclutch. Alcaraz got exposed by Midvedev a round later - but massive difference lol. Alcaraz went three sets every frickin round in Cincy btw where as Roddick dropped just one set on the way the SF in a TB. But sure Alcaraz was superior. Roddick was actually in great form that summer, he just had a freak loss at the USO. He was quite clearly playing better than Alcaraz and certainly Zverev lol. Also I love how Zverev losing in straights in the QF is doing damage but Roddick losing in five isn't. I guess beating Sinner in five is a nice win but Roddick was handing out bakery products, that's difference between being ranked #2 and #12 in the draw...
Click to expand...
Dude, this is reaching. Roddick won 24 points more than his inferior opponent and lost the match, as defending champion. Alcaraz went down to 2021 USO champ Medvedev playing one of the best matches of his Slam career. You don't see the difference? That was a terrible loss from Roddick. Yea Zverev beating Sinner is more impressive than Roddick's USO bid that summer imo. Sorry if you don't agree with that, or with the Alcaraz struggling that entire Cincy tournament and then taking his level way up against Djokovic.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
mike danny said:
You're overrating Alcaraz, is my point. The guy should've put away a struggling Djokovic and failed to do so. And let's not pretend like Carlos himself didn't struggle against all kinds of players during the Summer HC season.
Click to expand...

The over-rating of Alcaraz in Cincy 23 is hilarious. struggled all the way till the final. Guy couldn't even put away a meh djokovic in Cincy 23 final. that's his raised level, LMAO.
04 Cincy roddick or hewitt would have stomped all over that djokovic in straights, not just 04 Cincy agassi
 
Neptune

Neptune

Hall of Fame
Great thread, OP! Unexpectedly learned a lot here.
It's fascinating how in tennis, nothing seems impossible. However, it can be 10x more pronounced in the realm of hypothetical scenarios. LOL
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Yeah and made up for it with a stunning 57.1 win rate on returns in play. This was a strategical difference of his through his entire career, give up aces but really hit through the ball on return when he got the opportunity.
Click to expand...
True, but he's giving up a massive amount of ground by not getting so many returns back in play. That's the advantage Djokovic has over him. Agassi at 5'10 did amazing things regardless of his height but 6'1 or 6'2 is the goldie locks height for a tennis player. It's not surprising that the 4 most successful are in that height range.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
So you believe Agassi who pulled out of Wimbledon and Indianapolis with a hip injury right before Canada and Cincy, and struggled against Roddick and Fish, both who were upset at the USO, is going to beat much younger #1 Alcaraz who is far superior physically? Some of you are stuck in time.
Click to expand...
Rodidick of Cincy 04 would easily beat either djoko or Alcaraz of Cincy 23
hilarious to think a freak loss at USO 04 means anything wrt to Cincy 04 form.
Agassi did beat hewitt also in Cincy who was clearly physically superior to him and playing way better than Alcaraz by the way.
 
BauerAlmeida

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
Djokovic won USO, AO, YEC and a few M1000s.

Beat Alcaraz and Sinner back to back in YEC without dropping a set. Beat Alcaraz to win Cinci. Beat Medvedev at the USO. Dropped only one set at the AO and was a tie-break, dropped sets in only match at the USO and if you look at the scorelines in BOTH events he was destroying basically everyone.

To say he didn't face good competition when he beat Alcaraz, Sinner, Medvedev, etc is total nonsense and just coping. And even if he had not faced top competition, it would be ridiculous to blame him for that as it's not something in his control and he was destroying the opposition most of the time at the THREE biggest events.

Agassi played great but didn't have the consistency of Djokovic who played at a high level most of the time. Agassi on certain occasions. Agassi would achieve more than he did in 2004 if you put him in Djokovic's place, but not as much as Djokovic himself achieved.
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
True, but he's giving up a massive amount of ground by not getting so many returns back in play. That's the advantage Djokovic has over him. Agassi at 5'10 did amazing things regardless of his height but 6'1 or 6'2 is the goldie locks height for a tennis player. It's not surprising that the 4 most successful are in that height range.
Click to expand...
Hypes Alcaraz as incredible opponent in one post

Agassi too short because he was only 5’10” in another

Hmm
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
True, but he's giving up a massive amount of ground by not getting so many returns not in play. That's the advantage Djokovic has over him. Agassi at 5'10 did amazing things regardless of his height but 6'1 or 6'2 is the goldie locks height for a tennis player. It's not surprising that the 4 most successful are in that height range.
Click to expand...
Better rebuttal should be is that enough for giving up 33 aces. That's 8 total games. Average aces in those days was around 10/11. And do not fixate on just 1 stat.

Also asking where the 57.1 returns in play won would be another start. Uts gives him 40.6 percentage returns in play. Someone is wrong.
 
G

GAS

Professional
Non-vulturing Djokovic has same number of USO as clay court specialist Nadal #neverforget
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
Dude, this is reaching. Roddick won 24 points more than his inferior opponent and lost the match, as defending champion. Alcaraz went down to 2021 USO champ Medvedev playing one of the best matches of his Slam career. You don't see the difference? That was a terrible loss from Roddick. Yea Zverev beating Sinner is more impressive than Roddick's USO bid that summer imo. Sorry if you don't agree with that, or with the Alcaraz struggling that entire Cincy tournament and then taking his level way up against Djokovic.
Click to expand...
How does what you said invalidate that it was a freak loss? Roddick was the better player and fumbled his way out of the tournament by playing really unluctch. He went like 30 points on serve without dropping a point or something. It's a bad loss, but probably if you play that match back 20 times Roddick wins the other 19. Doesn't mean he wasn't in better form than Alcaraz and Zverev. I'll take that rather than a run of Zverev losing easily to Alcaraz, who lost easily to Medvedev who lost easily to 36 year old Djokovic LOL. That just shows mid they all wer, winning easily and then getting crushed the next round lol. Roddick went to the final of Canada losing to peak Fed, lost to Agassi turning back the years in a match of the year candidate in Cincy and then had an unclutch loss after crushing everyone in the first four rounds. Sometimes the margins are small against a monster server. He probably stills serves and hits everyone from the 2023 edition off the court (y)
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
mike danny said:
You're overrating Alcaraz, is my point. The guy should've put away a struggling Djokovic and failed to do so. And let's not pretend like Carlos himself didn't struggle against all kinds of players during the Summer HC season.
Click to expand...
Why is it when Djokovic wins, it's always the other guy should have won. lol. I don't think I'm overrating him and rating him where he should be, when he came into that match the #1 player and at 53-6 (90% win rate) for the year.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam said:
Why is it when Djokovic wins, it's always the other guy should have won. lol. I don't think I'm overrating him and rating him where he should be, when he came into that match the #1 player and at 53-6 (90% win rate) for the year.
Click to expand...
Because Djokovic made their player lose time and again and they have lost their minds so need to make stuff up.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
nolefam_2024 said:
Better rebuttal should be is that enough for giving up 33 aces. That's 8 total games. Average aces in those days was around 10/11. And do not fixate on just 1 stat.

Also asking where the 57.1 returns in play won would be another start. Uts gives him 40.6 percentage returns in play. Someone is wrong.
Click to expand...
Plus Safin is not one of the top servers at that. That's too many free points and too many service games going by unchallenged.

Not sure about that stat.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
How does what you said invalidate that it was a freak loss? Roddick was the better player and fumbled his way out of the tournament by playing really unluctch. He went like 30 points on serve without dropping a point or something. It's a bad loss, but probably if you play that match back 20 times Roddick wins the other 19. Doesn't mean he wasn't in better form than Alcaraz and Zverev. I'll take that rather than a run of Zverev losing easily to Alcaraz, who lost easily to Medvedev who lost easily to 36 year old Djokovic LOL. That just shows mid they all wer, winning easily and then getting crushed the next round lol. Roddick went to the final of Canada losing to peak Fed, lost to Agassi turning back the years in a match of the year candidate in Cincy and then had an unclutch loss after crushing everyone in the first four rounds. Sometimes the margins are small against a monster server. He probably stills serves and hits everyone from the 2023 edition off the court (y)
Click to expand...

04 Roddick beats both 23 djokovic and 23 Alcaraz in straights at Cincy IMO. he anyway beat a clearly better 08 djokovic in straights at Dubai in similar conditions.
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Agassi had set point in both of the first two sets btw and got to a TB in both, so let’s not act like Safin was having some insurmountable edge in serve efficacy in the context of the match.

Furthermore Agassi was known to tank return games down 30-0 or so and that plays out in a lot of the ace stuff, you see a bunch of runs where Safin rips off a few aces in succession but it’s very much NOT like he was pulling aces and unreturned out on big points. (He did ace on SP in the first set to be fair)

Just using pure statistics does not do the AO 04 SF any justice and it’s really sad to see :( one of the best ball striking matches ever.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Hypes Alcaraz as incredible opponent in one post

Agassi too short because he was only 5’10” in another

Hmm
Click to expand...
Agassi was obviously not too short and I never said that. However, it's not only about height man but athleticism. Do you honestly believe Agassi is on Alcaraz's level as an athlete? That's going into a whole other discussion. Right now, I'm talking about the height advantage Djokovic has over Agassi as a returner. Agassi's ace against percentage is way higher than Djokovic's and he gets far less returns in play. Safin won't get that against Djokovic.
 
zvelf

zvelf

Hall of Fame
Phenomenal said:
Looks like OP is aware Djokovic's season much better atleast by stats. Idk what OP trying to prove.

Why not find a better year for Agassi and make it more interesting and compare.
Weak competition or not this huge gap can't be explained by competition or anything.

More like giving him a win.
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This post is branching off of a different thread about Sinner and so it seemed inappropriate to hijack that thread for a different subject. And you are correct, "this huge gap can't be explained by competition or anything," and yet at this moment in time, we have 14 people voting for Agassi.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Agassi had set point in both of the first two sets btw and got to a TB in both, so let’s not act like Safin was having some insurmountable edge in serve efficacy in the context of the match.

Furthermore Agassi was known to tank return games down 30-0 or so and that plays out in a lot of the ace stuff, you see a bunch of runs where Safin rips off a few aces in succession but it’s very much NOT like he was pulling aces and unreturned out on big points. (He did ace on SP in the first set to be fair)

Just using pure statistics does not do the AO 04 SF any justice and it’s really sad to see :( one of the best ball striking matches ever.
Click to expand...

Agassi broke Safin 4 times in the match anyway. people cherrypicking something like number of aces is just peak denial and fanboyism stuff.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
How does what you said invalidate that it was a freak loss? Roddick was the better player and fumbled his way out of the tournament by playing really unluctch. He went like 30 points on serve without dropping a point or something. It's a bad loss, but probably if you play that match back 20 times Roddick wins the other 19. Doesn't mean he wasn't in better form than Alcaraz and Zverev. I'll take that rather than a run of Zverev losing easily to Alcaraz, who lost easily to Medvedev who lost easily to 36 year old Djokovic LOL. That just shows mid they all wer, winning easily and then getting crushed the next round lol. Roddick went to the final of Canada losing to peak Fed, lost to Agassi turning back the years in a match of the year candidate in Cincy and then had an unclutch loss after crushing everyone in the first four rounds. Sometimes the margins are small against a monster server. He probably stills serves and hits everyone from the 2023 edition off the court (y)
Click to expand...
I think you're stuck in Federer's era where you think all players are superior to players of 2023. So we will never see eye to eye here because I just don't agree with you, and you don't agree with me. It's a pattern with some of you Fed fans where every discussion becomes predictable and goes this route. I think Djokovic is the greatest tennis player who ever lived. You obviously don't. I think 36 year old Djokovic did something spectacular last year by going against Alcaraz, Sinner and Medevdev and coming out with a dominant season. You obviously don't and think they're "mid". We should quit wasting each other's time, cut our losses, and move along because this discussion isn't going anywhere. Plus it's time for my lunch.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
I think you're stuck in Federer's era where you think all players are superior to players of 2023. So we will never see eye to eye here because I just don't agree with you, and you don't agree with me. It's a pattern with some of you Fed fans where every discussion becomes predictable and goes this route. I think Djokovic is the greatest tennis player who ever lived. You obviouly don't. I think 36 year old Djokovic did something spectacular last year by going against Alcaraz, Sinner and Medevdev and coming out with a dominant season. You obviously don't and thing they're "mid". We should quit wasting each other's time just cut out losses and move along because this discussion isn't going anywhere. Plus it's time for my lunch.
Click to expand...

23 djokovic wouldn't win a single slam in any year from 2001-2015 except maybe in 2002
he'd get crushed
he won 3 in 2023. obviously worst competition in open era, unless you are such a djokovic fanboy or have little clue about tennis prior.

Paul in SF and tpas crumbling FH & trash TB in F of AO
cramping Alcaraz in SF and Ruud in F at RG
shelton in SF and meh Med in F at USO

lmao.
 
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NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
I think you're stuck in Federer's era where you think all players are superior to players of 2023. So we will never see eye to eye here because I just don't agree with you, and you don't agree with me. It's a pattern with some of you Fed fans where every discussion becomes predictable and goes this route. I think Djokovic is the greatest tennis player who ever lived. You obviouly don't. I think 36 year old Djokovic did something spectacular last year by going against Alcaraz, Sinner and Medevdev and coming out with a dominant season. You obviously don't and thing they're "mid". We should quit wasting each other's time just cut out losses and move along because this discussion isn't going anywhere. Plus it's time for my lunch.
Click to expand...
"Some of your Fed fans" LOL. Like you Djoko fans don't have your own patterns. I don't think all players from Federer's era are superior no, but I think 2004 Fed is clearly superior to 2023 Djokovic and that filters down to the rest of the field considering the similar levels of dominance.

I think Djokovic vultured a barren field last year and has done for years and years. He might still be the greatest, I don't think that's mutually exclusive but it's based off years like 2011 and 2015. He's still playing great tennis but not at the level that should achieving these sorts of results. So yeah, agree to disagree. But I'm still going to call out trash takes like Alcaraz in 2023 Cincy > Roddick in 2004 Cincy (y)
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
jl809 said:
No-one can compete with the majesty of Djokovic’s level in the first 2 sets of the Cincy 23 final guys. Off the goddamn charts
Click to expand...
Absolute djoke to compare it with the 2004 SF. Do these guys even watch tennis...Like fair enough putting Djokovic on top, but not in Cincy lol.
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
abmk said:
safin was playing at peak level in QF/SF/part of final at the AO, winning Paris/Madrid and then at the YEC.
what is obvious is you didn't follow nor do you know stuff about 2004.
Click to expand...

It's funny how young Doko fans use ranking # to judge the quality/ability of a player, but don't understand that ranking doesn't always reflect his/her capability. Safin displayed a much higher quality tennis than his actual #86 in the world in 2004.

When Nadal was ranked in the 30s before the clay season started in 2005, but according to *********, Nadal must be ordinary on clay simply because his ranking is so low. :-D


Stuff you read at TTW

f5edc56bf9baa0a42dce40758d346b47.gif
 
G

GAS

Professional
TMF said:
It's funny how young Doko fans use ranking # to judge the quality/ability of a player, but don't understand that ranking doesn't always reflect his/her capability. Safin displayed a much higher quality tennis than his actual #86 in the world in 2004.

When Nadal was ranked in the 30s before the clay season started in 2005, but according to *********, Nadal must be ordinary on clay simply because his ranking is so low. :-D


Stuff you read at TTW

f5edc56bf9baa0a42dce40758d346b47.gif
Click to expand...

Well... there's a reason why ******** is a banned word here. It's because they are.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
What's even the point of this discussion tbf.

Just going to be Fed fans siding Agassi and Djokovic fans siding with Djokovic. Then Fed fans defending Roddick and Djokovic fans defending Alcaraz.
 
Last edited:
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
NatF said:
Ask the OP. Legitimately curious who at the 2023 AO and USO these Djokovic fans think beats Agassi?
Click to expand...
I think AO 2023 and USO 2023 vs AO 2004 and USO 2004 is a good convo. I don't really have strong a lean there.

Yeah the OP is actually a Djokovic fan so I guess they can address my post there.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
BauerAlmeida said:
Agassi likely wins the AO too (though not as dominant as Djokovic), but is in no way a lock for USO, Cinici or YEC.
Click to expand...
He didn't play the YEC so that checks out. I hesitate to use the word lock but he's the heavy favorite on form at the USO and Cincy.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
RS said:
I think AO 2023 and USO 2023 vs AO 2004 and USO 2004 is a good convo. I don't really have strong a lean there.

Yeah the OP is actually a Djokovic fan so I guess they can address my post there.
Click to expand...
Good convo in what sense, who played better at each slam?
 
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BauerAlmeida

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
In the 14 matches Djokovic played between AO and USO he won 12 in straight sets. In the other 2 matches in one of them, he lost one set and in a tie-break. He played two top 5 players to win the AO and two top 10 players to win the USO. He won the YEC beating Alcaraz and Sinner back to back in straights not dropping more than 3 games per set.

But some people will tell themselves he was playing like **** and won because he played bad competition to cope with the fact he has all the records lol.
 
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