New Video analysis of Greatest SERVE ever in history of Tennis from Tennis magazine.

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bluefugue

New User
Todd Martin said that Karlovic had the best serve he'd ever seen. This was after playing him at the AO a couple years ago, if I recall correctly.

I don't know if Pete's serve is the best -- Karlovic, Goran, and a few others probably equal or exceed him. What makes Pete special is a "top 10 all-time" serve combined with very good volleys & a huge ground game. That's why he won more than Goran, Flip, Rusedski, Tanner, Curren, and Karlovic put together.
 
2

2 Cent

Rookie
Pete has always widely been accepted by most tennis players as having the Greatest Serve.

so quit complaining.
 
VikingSamurai

VikingSamurai

Banned
Can only speak for myself..

I am not complaining. I am disagreeing.. I don't believe Sampras has the best serve in history..
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
flyer said:
Umm, Agassi actually said Roddick had the best serve ever at the '07 US Open when he guest commentated the Federer vs. Roddcik match, so wrong assumption there...as for the rest of your post read my previous post just above^^^
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He never said that. I would have remembered that. McEnroe would have disputed it. Post a transcript and a link if you want to prove that you're not a liar.
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
bluefugue said:
I don't know if Pete's serve is the best -- Karlovic, Goran, and a few others probably equal or exceed him. What makes Pete special is a "top 10 all-time" serve combined with very good volleys & a huge ground game. That's why he won more than Goran, Flip, Rusedski, Tanner, Curren, and Karlovic put together.
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Haven't seen enough of Goran, but I've read quite often that he wasn't very consistent with those second serves. The second serve is a huge factor in determining who the best overall server is. It's probably 40 to 50% of it.

I was just watching the '92 Davis Cup tie USA vs Sweden on clay with McEnroe/Sampras vs Edberg/Jarryd. The moment Sampras steps up to the plate, it's ace, unreturnable, ace, ace (although I was more impressed with McEnroe's play in that match - awesome to watch him out-touch Edberg). Go on YouTube - there are tons of Sampras matches on there in their entirety, and you can see for yourself how ridiculous his serving was.
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
flyer said:
No it was not, thats only because you measure effective by "slams won," which has to do with his mental, ground game, movement, etc., but if you looks at serve statistics Karlovic has a higher first serve percentage, high ace percentage, and holds serve at a higher percentage....how can you argue that
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Obviously you can make some arguments, such as "Sampras faced a higher quality of opponents," which can't be proven, or "Sampras' racquet was far less powerful," which is a fact.
 
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bluefugue

New User
For what it's worth, here are Todd Martin's comments (AO 2004) about Karlovic's serve.

Q. That poor guy hasn't broken serve in two matches.

TODD MARTIN: Nor has he lost his serve in two matches. That's because he's got -- his serve is ridiculous.

Q. Is it?

TODD MARTIN: It's remarkable.

Q. Is it the biggest serve you've ever seen?

TODD MARTIN: Not the biggest, no. But it's the best.

Q. Is it?

TODD MARTIN: Yeah. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Q. Is that because of where it comes from?

TODD MARTIN: Listen, he's 6'10", he serves from a tree, he serves hard. But he is so accurate, is it astounding. It is really -- he has got one heck of a complete serve, first and second serve.

Q. That's quite a statement.

TODD MARTIN: Well, that's why I made it, Bud.

Q. Who was his predecessor that was the best server you've ever seen?

TODD MARTIN: Well, I think, you know, you got a few candidates. I'm talking just serve. I'm not talking about what...

Q. Yes, yes, yes.

TODD MARTIN: I think at times Goran was close. I think Greg and maybe Mark. For sure Wayne Arthurs is up there. I really like Michael Stich's serve. He was more the way he backed it up as well. I don't think he had quite as punishing of a serve as some of those other guys.

Q. Has anybody hit that ad court wide better than he has?

TODD MARTIN: No, unbelievable. It's amazing. It's amazing. I had been told that he liked to go out wide in the ad court. I could sit on it, I could not sit on it and... I was watching it go by regardless.

Q. Do you think you could hit it if you stood on a four-inch riser?

TODD MARTIN: No. It's different. No, he's got a much better serve than I do.
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!Tym

Hall of Fame
Goran said Stich's serve was the toughest for him to return as he couldn't read it, every serve with the same ball toss he said.

Bruguera said Goran's return was the toughest for him to return, and it was the best ever for sure...yet seemed to handle Sampras, Stich, Krajicek, and Becker's serves pretty darn well. Goran, however, when he was on with his serve would utterly stupify Bruguera, leaving him barely able to make any returns.

A lot of players would probably say Roddick and Philipoussis' serves are darn near unreturnable, yet for Federer; it's like he's picking apples from an apple tree it's so easy to return them.

Cash has coached both Rusedski and Philipoussis, two of the baddest servers ever, and he said Philipoussis' serve wasn't that hard for him to return, but Rusedski's was something else, that it was near impossible for him to return, because of the crazy action he got on the ball.

What I'm saying is that while there are many great serves, there is not necessarily a best. I think it differs on an opponent by opponent basis and individual style matchups. A short player, for example, like Bersategui might find a guy with an high bouncing kicker to his backhand to be positively sadistic and unfair; wheras a taller player might look at that kind of serve as a 5-star gourmet meal.

A *lefty* player with wingspan might find they return Goran's famous lefty wide serves easier than they do your typical heavy Sampras kick-bomb first serve.

It's all relative. I know personally that for me I've had people tell me oh watch out this guy's serve in unbelievably huge, you'll never be able to return it, then find that when I play them I'm not only returning all their serves, I'm returning everyone with interest and pummeling them. I'm just "on" to his motion, unique spin, whatever. Then, I face another big server and find that everything just feels totally whack and different, and no matter what I do, I'm always leaning the wrong way and when I do lean the right way, my returns just dribble into the bottom of the net, I just can't seem to make clean contact for the life of me, 'cause everything just feels so squirelly. Again, it's relative. You'd be surprised how much difference little individual nuances between the kind of ball one guy hits and another's can throw an INDIVIDUAL player off.

Agassi for example had seemingly zero problems with say Becker or Stich's serves, yet Sampras' serve just ate him up. It's a perfectly natural human phenomenon.
 
N

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
Fedace said:
^^Pete's serve is much heavier than Karlovic's so it is actually much more effective even though it is not moving as fast.
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Karlovic and Roddick both have the same amount of spin Sampras has, but they have much more speed on the ball. What differentiates Sampras from Karlovic and Roddick is that he has great disguise and his balls screwed on real tight since he goes for so much on his second serve.


Edit : Scratch that, Roddick has the same spin as Sampras does :)


Overall, I'd take Roddick's serve simply because of the sheer power and such. Sampras has a great serve, but he also had the game to back it up also. Great volleys, groundstrokes, and excellent movement.


And anyone that thinks Federer can't return the Sampras serve needs to wake up. Federer returned a 145 mph serve from Roddick at his backhand with ease. He was hitting returns off of Sampras at Wimbledon 2001 for winners. He consistently returns big serves without much trouble once he sees them enough.
 
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tricky

Hall of Fame
!Tym is pretty spot on. If your first serve was like Karlovic, 2nd serve was like Sampras, kick serve was like Rafter, and you could approach the net like Edberg, you could win with a 3.0 groundgame and -0.5 point construction. Maybe. ;) :D

What's more interesting is how, though the average heaviness of serves nowadays is probably higher than it was 10 years ago, most people associate the 90s as the Golden Era of the serve.
 
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!Tym

Hall of Fame
Well, actually, another way to think of it is that it's rather like top baseball pitchers. There are a number of elite pitchers in baseball, and yet you'll find that some hitters will "match up" better and feel more comfortable against one elite pitcher vs. another. It's not just whose ERA is better that determines the matchup war, there's quirky human intangibles involved just as there are in all sports.
 
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tricky

Hall of Fame
Yeah, Sampras is like vintage Pedro Martinez. He can dial up the speed anytime he wants, but he prefers moving the ball around, play corners and keep you guessing. Which is, of course, what most pitchers aspire to do, but Pedro turns it into an exhibition of his own precision.

Roddick, especially old-school Roddick, is more like Josh Beckett. When he's one, he plays to rack up the points with a sense that the game can't be over enough. He brings the heat, and he wants to run you off the court.
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
drakulie said:
No need to prove what many already know (with the exception of you).
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Ok then genius, explain why Karlovic AND Roddick have a higher first serve percentage, higher aces per service game, and hold serve at a higher percentage, all in an age where serve & volley is almost nonexistent and the courts and grass are much, much slower, also why pros such as Martin, Agassi, Murray, etc. have said their serves are better ...you can't, you probably won't even respond, if you think Sampras had the best serve ever your in denial.
 
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
I have only seen Karlovic play a few times and he does have a tremendous serve. But I have seen lots of Roddick, Goran, Pete, Stich, Becker and Curran. To me, Pete has the best serve because of his second serve and his ability to put away lots of weak returns (his volley skills...not trying to make this into who has the best S&V). Its hard to gauge who has the best serve ever. some will use statistics, while other will use their impressiions from years of watching a player. I myself use the impression.

Goran had the best 1st serve, while Pete had the best second serve.

I DO NOT remember hearing Agassi say Roddick had the better serve...I would have remembered a statement like that. Roddick has speed, but Pete had better placement and a much better second serve. Don't really believe Agassi said this.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
flyer said:
Ok then genius, explain why Karlovic AND Roddick have a higher first serve percentage, higher aces per service game, and hold serve at a higher percentage, all in an age where serve & volley is almost nonexistent and the courts and grass are much, much slower,
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Easy>>> players today compared to when Sampras played are in comparison lousy returners.

Additionally, if those guys serves are so huge>>> why don't they make the finals or even semi-fianls of slams??
 
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
flyer said:
Ok then genius, explain why Karlovic AND Roddick have a higher first serve percentage, higher aces per service game, and hold serve at a higher percentage, all in an age where serve & volley is almost nonexistent and the courts and grass are much, much slower, also why pros such as Martin, Agassi, Murray, etc. have said their serves are better ...you can't, you probably won't even respond, if you think Sampras had the best serve ever your in denial.
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would you lease provide a link to where you got these stats. thanks.
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
drakulie said:
Easy>>> players today compared to when Sampras played are in comparison lousy returners.

Additionally, if those guys serves are so huge>>> why don't they make the finals or even semi-fianls of slams??
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haha omg lousy returns? thats the best you came up with? and you come to this conclusion how? wait i got it! WISHFUL THINKING, you wanting Sampras' serve to be better doesn't make it better buddy

umm well roddick has won a slam and made 3 other finals...so he does, and karlovic can't do anything else he can only serve hes completely one dimensional, but boy can he serve...Sampras was far superior in every other facet of the game to Karlovic and Roddick, thats why he won 14, thats the problem though when we talk about serve and only serve you must onyl look at the serve, you don't do that you look at it and say well Sampras had a great serve and won 14 Slams so he must have had the best serve ever...not so amigo
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
flyer said:
haha omg lousy returns? thats the best you came up with? and you come to this conclusion how?
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How did I come up with this? easy>>> You state they "only" have serves. If they are winning so many of their service points/games and not winning many tourneys then that must mean the following:

1. At the beginning of tourneys they are dominating against weak returners>> hence the great serve stats and why they only need "great serves" to win. However,,,,,

2. When they get deeper into tournaments and are playing better players>> they are getting broken, which results in losing and why they don't go as deep in tourneys as other players.

So, there serve stats, unlike Sampras' are a bit inflated because they really only reflect playing in early rounds of tourneys to lesser players.


flyer said:
Sampras was far superior in every other facet of the game to Karlovic and Roddick, thats why he won 14,
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Thay may be the case with Ivo, but not with Roddick. Roddicks FH is superior to Sampras. In fact his BH is at least on par with Sampras. Contrary to myth,,,, Sampras by no means had an outstanding ground game.
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
drakulie said:
How did I come up with this? easy>>> You state they "only" have serves. If they are winning so many of their service points/games and not winning many tourneys then that must mean the following:

1. At the beginning of tourneys they are dominating against weak returners>> hence the great serve stats and why they only need "great serves" to win. However,,,,,

2. When they get deeper into tournaments and are playing better players>> they are getting broken, which results in losing and why they don't go as deep in tourneys as other players.

So, there serve stats, unlike Sampras' are a bit inflated because they really only reflect playing in early rounds of tourneys to lesser players.




Thay may be the case with Ivo, but not with Roddick. Roddicks FH is superior to Sampras. In fact his BH is at least on par with Sampras. Contrary to myth,,,, Sampras by no means had an outstanding ground game.
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Roddick constantly goes deep in tournaments...he wins titles and plays finals all the time...he is almost always in the semis of the tournaments he plays...Ivo also had a great year and played many finals and won 3 titles,

ur nuts though if you think Roddicks ground game was anywhere close to Sampras...Sampras had a much better and complete game, his forhand and backhand were better and his volleys and movement are much better
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
flyer said:
Roddick constantly goes deep in tournaments...he wins titles and plays finals all the time...he is almost always in the semis of the tournaments he plays...Ivo also had a great year and played many finals and won 3 titles,
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Which explains why he has played in so many Grand slam Finals as of late, and also explains why IVO with such an "enormous" serve has made it deep at Wimbledon ( a surface perfectly suited for big servers). :roll:

flyer said:
ur nuts though if you think Roddicks ground game was anywhere close to Sampras...
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I don't think so. Sampras' ground game is way overyhyped on these boards. His BH was a definite liability (as is Roddicks) and his FH was a "go-for-broke" shot. He'd either nail it, or hit it out. It was in no way a rally shot.


Just to add since you like stats,,,, here are some stats for you. Of these two players (federer/karlovic), by looking at these head to head stats one clearly looks as though he has a better serve.

>He has a better first serve percentage in 4 of 5 matches.
>He has a better first serve points won in 3 of 5 matches.
>He has a better second serve points won in 5 of 5 matches.
>He has a better break poinst saved percentage in at least 4 of 5 matches.

Yup, by looking at these stats one could clearly conclude Federer has a way better serve than Karlovic. :roll: IN fact the only serve stat Ivo is better at is Aces and double faults.

Aces: 14 to 6
1st Serve Percentage 69% (69/100) to 75% (72/96)
1st Serve Points Won 72% (50/69) to 81% (59/72)
2nd Serve Points Won 67% (21/31) to 83% (20/24)
Break Points Saved 75% (3/4) to 100% (2/2)


Aces: 15 to 8
1st Serve Percentage 60% (64/105) to 64% (63/98)
1st Serve Points Won 84% (54/64) to 82% (52/63)
2nd Serve Points Won 56% (23/41) to 74% (26/35)
Break Points Saved 75% (3/4) to no 0 of 0

Aces: 16 to 3
1st Serve Percentage 82% (61/74) to 84% (55/65)
1st Serve Points Won 83% (51/61) to 90% (50/55)
2nd Serve Points Won 30% (4/13) to 80% (8/10)


Aces: 16 to 10
1st Serve Percentage 67% (53/79) to 70% (57/81)
1st Serve Points Won 90% (48/53) to 82% (47/57)
2nd Serve Points Won 46% (12/26) to 70% (17/24)
Break Points Saved 100% (2/2) 100% (1/1)


Aces 16 to 6
1st Serve Percentage 64% (59/92) to 55% (41/74)
1st Serve Points Won 71% (42/59) to 85% (35/41)
2nd Serve Points Won 45% (15/33) to 63% (21/33)
Break Points Saved 66% (6/9) 83% (5/6)


Like I was saying, karlovic's serve, when playing against good returners is neutralized. His "stats" are inflated.

Lesson over. Bye bye!
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
drakulie said:
Which explains why he has played in so many Grand slam Finals as of late, and also explains why IVO with such an "enormous" serve has made it deep at Wimbledon ( a surface perfectly suited for big servers). :roll:



I don't think so. Sampras' ground game is way overyhyped on these boards. His BH was a definite liability (as is Roddicks) and his FH was a "go-for-broke" shot. He'd either nail it, or hit it out. It was in no way a rally shot.


Just to add since you like stats,,,, here are some stats for you. Of these two players (federer/karlovic), by looking at these head to head stats one clearly looks as though he has a better serve.

>He has a better first serve percentage in 4 of 5 matches.
>He has a better first serve points won in 3 of 5 matches.
>He has a better second serve points won in 5 of 5 matches.
>He has a better break poinst saved percentage in at least 4 of 5 matches.

Yup, by looking at these stats one could clearly conclude Federer has a way better serve than Karlovic. :roll: IN fact the only serve stat Ivo is better at is Aces and double faults.

Aces: 14 to 6
1st Serve Percentage 69% (69/100) to 75% (72/96)
1st Serve Points Won 72% (50/69) to 81% (59/72)
2nd Serve Points Won 67% (21/31) to 83% (20/24)
Break Points Saved 75% (3/4) to 100% (2/2)


Aces: 15 to 8
1st Serve Percentage 60% (64/105) to 64% (63/98)
1st Serve Points Won 84% (54/64) to 82% (52/63)
2nd Serve Points Won 56% (23/41) to 74% (26/35)
Break Points Saved 75% (3/4) to no 0 of 0

Aces: 16 to 3
1st Serve Percentage 82% (61/74) to 84% (55/65)
1st Serve Points Won 83% (51/61) to 90% (50/55)
2nd Serve Points Won 30% (4/13) to 80% (8/10)


Aces: 16 to 10
1st Serve Percentage 67% (53/79) to 70% (57/81)
1st Serve Points Won 90% (48/53) to 82% (47/57)
2nd Serve Points Won 46% (12/26) to 70% (17/24)
Break Points Saved 100% (2/2) 100% (1/1)


Aces 16 to 6
1st Serve Percentage 64% (59/92) to 55% (41/74)
1st Serve Points Won 71% (42/59) to 85% (35/41)
2nd Serve Points Won 45% (15/33) to 63% (21/33)
Break Points Saved 66% (6/9) 83% (5/6)


Like I was saying, karlovic's serve, when playing against good returners is neutralized. His "stats" are inflated.

Lesson over. Bye bye!
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Thats when you compare him to federer possibly the GOAT you brainless fool anyone compared to federer will have bad stats, i can't even believe you made that argument, that would be like me say "look at these stats of Ivo compared to someone 200 in the world and then saying obviously Ivo is the best serve ever because he killed that guy" you don't just compare to one person thats statistically ********, if you had half a brain that would be common sense to you,

unlike your statistics based on five matches against one player my stats are based on hundreds of matches against hundreds of players over the course of many years...you get it you fifth grader?

name a pro who has said Sampras' serve is the best ever...
 
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drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
flyer said:
Thats when you compare him to federer
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No, that's when you compare him to better players, which explains why he never goes deep into large tourneys and wins them. Against players ranked 200 (like you stated), with lousy retruns>> his serve stats are awesome, which is why I said his serve stats are inflated. He typically plays these type of players in the early rounds like I explained earlier.

Once he plays top players>> his serve is neutralized, which explains why he can't consistently get deep into large tourneys.

flyer said:
unlike your statistics based on five matches against one player my stats are based on hundreds of matches against hundreds of players over the course of many years...you get it you fifth grader?
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And how many of those hundreds of matches are against top 10 players?? Top 20??

My venture is that most of them are against guys ranked in the 200's >> like you suggested. Cause like I said, he ain't getting deep enough into tourneys to be playing the top guys consistently.
 
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drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ Just to add to the above. Ivo played 64 matches last year (43-21), and faced 76 players in those matches.

Of those 76 players, only 8 were top 20 players.

James Blake (3)
Andy Murray
Tommy Haas (2)
Andy Roddick
Roger Federer (3)
Tomas Berdych (2)
David Ferrer
Lleyton Hewitt

11 of the players he faced were outside the top 100, including several 200+ players, and two outside the top 300.
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
flyer said:
Ok then genius, explain why Karlovic AND Roddick have a higher first serve percentage, higher aces per service game, and hold serve at a higher percentage, all in an age where serve & volley is almost nonexistent and the courts and grass are much, much slower, also why pros such as Martin, Agassi, Murray, etc. have said their serves are better ...you can't, you probably won't even respond, if you think Sampras had the best serve ever your in denial.
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Agassi never said that Roddick's serve was the best. Back in 2002 I believe he said that Roddick had a better second serve, however that was a long time ago and he might have changed his mind after playing Roddick many times since then, who knows. After he played Karlovic, he remarked on how amazing the trajectory of the serve was, but he never said it was the best he's faced.

Murray said that Karlovic has the best serve ever. How long has Murray been on tour? He doesn't know sh*t. He probably barely even watches old matches because he's too busy training and watching his current competition.
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
superman1 said:
Agassi never said that Roddick's serve was the best. Back in 2002 I believe he said that Roddick had a better second serve, however that was a long time ago and he might have changed his mind after playing Roddick many times since then, who knows. After he played Karlovic, he remarked on how amazing the trajectory of the serve was, but he never said it was the best he's faced.

Murray said that Karlovic has the best serve ever. How long has Murray been on tour? He doesn't know sh*t. He probably barely even watches old matches because he's too busy training and watching his current competition.
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Agassi said Roddick had the best serve ever at the '07 US Open when he guest commentated the Roddick Federer match, Murray knows more than you...but how about Martin, would he know? yeah i thought so
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
drakulie said:
No, that's when you compare him to better players, which explains why he never goes deep into large tourneys and wins them. Against players ranked 200 (like you stated), with lousy retruns>> his serve stats are awesome, which is why I said his serve stats are inflated. He typically plays these type of players in the early rounds like I explained earlier.

Once he plays top players>> his serve is neutralized, which explains why he can't consistently get deep into large tourneys.



And how many of those hundreds of matches are against top 10 players?? Top 20??

My venture is that most of them are against guys ranked in the 200's >> like you suggested. Cause like I said, he ain't getting deep enough into tourneys to be playing the top guys consistently.
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No its when you compare him to Fed just like you said...when are any other player statistics mentioned in your statistics...I understand your point but a five match sample against the wolrd #1 is not a metter to judge serve statistics because then you could only judge Sampras' serve under the same circumstances which is against Federer and there is only one match there, again not nearly a large enough sample to conclude anything

Can you name any pro that said Sampras has the best serve ever?
 
B

bluefugue

New User
I don't think so. Sampras' ground game is way overyhyped on these boards. His BH was a definite liability (as is Roddicks) and his FH was a "go-for-broke" shot. He'd either nail it, or hit it out. It was in no way a rally shot.
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Don't know about these boards specifically, but in general Sampras's ground game is seriously underrated. The fact that his forehand wasn't a rally shot is beside the point. It was an absolute killer and maybe the deadliest ground weapon of the '90s, at the very least in a league with similar shots by Courier and Agassi. His BH was quite solid in his younger days; I think he lost some consistency on it as he got older and his slice also started to float on him more, but in Pete's prime it was a hell of a better shot than Roddick's BH has ever been.
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
^^^don't stop at the BH, his forehand, movement, and volley were hells of better shots than what Roddicks got
 
F

fastdunn

Legend
Fedace said:
http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/visuals/visuals.aspx?id=109012
The greatest serve in history of tennis ever is now taken apart by Jon Yandell in Tennis magazine website. I modeled my serve after this so this is a welcome review and reminder for me personally. Many argue that Sampras serve is not the fastest serve in tennis history but most effective and most difficult to handle in history of tennis. Sampras serve is the Heaviest serve in history of tennis ever.:shock:
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As John Yandell mentioned Sampras' toss is abit to his left but I would like to point out that Sampras used to toss not as to the left as now. In fact, his toss changed (got higher and to his left) after his prime (more precisely, after he got injured in US Open and lost year end #1 spot). He got slower and depended more on serve-and-volley and therefore needed more kick toward end of his career.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
rwn said:
Sampras held serve 90% of the time, Karlovic holds 95% of the time in slower conditions and with heavier balls. Except for delusional Sampras fanatics this is simply no contest.
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The latest ATP stats show Karlovic holding serve 94% of the time (winning 74% of his service points. I believe that Roddick has the best serving stats in the current top 10 (or top 20) -- holding serve 91% of the time (winning 72% of service points). Roddick fared better on 2nd serves than Karlovic -- 57% points won versus 53% points won.

Do you have similar stats for Sampras? I know that Pete had a huge amount of spin on his 2nd serve and that it was very effective, but I don't know where to find the stats.


NamRanger said:
Karlovic and Roddick both have the same amount of spin Sampras has, but they have much more speed on the ball. What differentiates Sampras from Karlovic and Roddick is that he has great disguise and his balls screwed on real tight since he goes for so much on his second serve.

Edit : Scratch that, Roddick has the same spin as Sampras does :)
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Got any numbers or references on the amount of spin on the Karlovic and Roddick serves?

Found some spin studies from 10 yrs ago ('97 US Open). Pete's 1st serve averaged 120 RPM with 2700 RPM. One of his first serves was measure at 4260rpm. He easily had the highest combination of speed & spin on 1st serves according to that study.

Pete's 2nd serve numbers were equally impressive. His average 2nd serve spin in the study was 4623 RPM. Some of his 2nd serves exceeded 5300 RPM!

I don't pretend to know who has the greatest serve of all time, but Sampras certainly had one of the most effective serves in the game.

'97 US Open Spin Study
 
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
flyer said:
Thats when you compare him to federer possibly the GOAT you brainless fool anyone compared to federer will have bad stats, i can't even believe you made that argument, that would be like me say "look at these stats of Ivo compared to someone 200 in the world and then saying obviously Ivo is the best serve ever because he killed that guy" you don't just compare to one person thats statistically ********, if you had half a brain that would be common sense to you,

unlike your statistics based on five matches against one player my stats are based on hundreds of matches against hundreds of players over the course of many years...you get it you fifth grader?
name a pro who has said Sampras' serve is the best ever...
Click to expand...

Flyer...do us a favor and quit throwing out your BS. Please provide a LINK to where you get your "stats", until then shut TF up. You are newie on these forums and call Drakulie "brainless", yet he has given you his reasons and provided statistical proof, FOR HIS REASON. You are the one that looks brainless.

As for what Agassi said, you are a damn liar. He never, ever said Roddick was the best server ever. Never said that! Again, show us proof.

You seem to easily miss the point in the arguements brought forth, you must be another 15 year old that is clueless.
 
Jonnyf

Jonnyf

Hall of Fame
slappano said:
Does anyone have a clip of Agassi saying anything about Roddick having a better serve than Sampras?
Click to expand...

No, but in that video of Roddick vs. Sampras I think it's McEnroe who says Agassi told him that, I'm taking JMac's word here
 
Azzurri

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Legend
Jonnyf said:
No, but in that video of Roddick vs. Sampras I think it's McEnroe who says Agassi told him that, I'm taking JMac's word here
Click to expand...

Its not Mac who says it. I still want it quoted or on a video.

Does anyone rememer the Charlie Rose interview w/Agassi? I thought he said Pete was the best serve he ever faced because of the placement, spin and power all wrapped up together. He said Goran;s was easy to return...go figure.
 
Jonnyf

Jonnyf

Hall of Fame
slappano said:
Its not Mac who says it. I still want it quoted or on a video.

Does anyone rememer the Charlie Rose interview w/Agassi? I thought he said Pete was the best serve he ever faced because of the placement, spin and power all wrapped up together. He said Goran;s was easy to return...go figure.
Click to expand...


But it IS in a video, the video i posted from Roddick vs. Sampras when he actually physically says during a live tennis match "........Agassi says Roddick has a better second serve" On the video I posted fast forward to 3:50 and listen for 30 seconds or so. It's said isn't it!
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
slappano said:
Flyer...do us a favor and quit throwing out your BS. Please provide a LINK to where you get your "stats", until then shut TF up. You are newie on these forums and call Drakulie "brainless", yet he has given you his reasons and provided statistical proof, FOR HIS REASON. You are the one that looks brainless.

As for what Agassi said, you are a damn liar. He never, ever said Roddick was the best server ever. Never said that! Again, show us proof.

You seem to easily miss the point in the arguements brought forth, you must be another 15 year old that is clueless.
Click to expand...

Ok i'll be calm for this one...
My stats are from a Peter Bodo post at the time of the US open that points out that Roddick has a higher first serve percentage, higher ace per game percentage, and high service games held percentage than Sampras and Karlovic is higher than Roddick in all the aforementioned statistics...I'll try and find the post now...

Next...If you consider analyzing five matches against one player more statistically significant and more valid than comparing hundreds of matches against hundreds of players and ignoring the fact that many players have said Karlovic and Roddick have the best serves ever while I can't think or one that has said Sampras does(can you?) you are "brainless," he also didn't cite those stats by the way,

Agassi did say that, I don't have a manuscript of the tellecast but I can go into more detail...Agassi was asked what Roddick needs to do to win the match and he pointed out that in their previous matched Federer had out aced Roddick and he said some thing like...you know there is a problem when you have the best serve ever and you are being out aced...he then said that Roddick need to come out firing the aces to have a chance...

I could say a lot more but I'll just some it up like this...If you gonna call me out call me out and prove me wrong to come out and say "your a newie here so your dumb and full of BS and you must be 15," thats weak when you have no material other than your insults
 
Last edited:
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
Jonnyf said:
But it IS in a video, the video i posted from Roddick vs. Sampras when he actually physically says during a live tennis match "........Agassi says Roddick has a better second serve" On the video I posted fast forward to 3:50 and listen for 30 seconds or so. It's said isn't it!
Click to expand...

Yes, I listened to it, twice. Mac did not say it (the othe guy did), he also stated it was not better, but faster. Pete places it better and has more ability to get to net and use the serve as more of a weapon.

I don't know if Agassi said it or not. Its hearsay. Flyer claims he heard AGASSI say it last year. This video means nothing.
 
Jonnyf

Jonnyf

Hall of Fame
slappano said:
Yes, I listened to it, twice. Mac did not say it (the othe guy did), he also stated it was not better, but faster. Pete places it better and has more ability to get to net and use the serve as more of a weapon.

I don't know if Agassi said it or not. Its hearsay. Flyer claims he heard AGASSI say it last year. This video means nothing.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? The guy says that Agassi told him If you're not going to listen to what's physically said and realise that maybe just maybe someone with an actual insight into the pro players opinion knows better than us, then frankly you're not worth the effort. I don't have some transcript of any interviews and frankly it's a waste of time me trying to explain: my opinion, what appear to be Agassi's opinion, and plenty more people's opinion. If you're not going to have an open mind and listen to anybody else then frankly just forget it. Congratulations feel happy that you're "right" :roll:
 
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
flyer said:
Ok i'll be calm for this one...
My stats are from a Peter Bodo post at the time of the US open that points out that Roddick has a higher first serve percentage, higher ace per game percentage, and high service games held percentage than Sampras and Karlovic is higher than Roddick in all the aforementioned statistics...I'll try and find the post now...

Next...If you consider analyzing five matches against one player more statistically significant and more valid than comparing hundreds of matches against hundreds of players and ignoring the fact that many players have said Karlovic and Roddick have the best serves ever while I can't think or one that has said Sampras does(can you?) you are "brainless," he also didn't cite those stats by the way,

Agassi did say that, I don't have a manuscript of the tellecast but I can go into more detail...Agassi was asked what Roddick needs to do to win the match and he pointed out that in their previous matched Federer had out aced Roddick and he said some thing like...you know there is a problem when you have the best serve ever and you are being out aced...he then said that Roddick need to come out firing the aces to have a chance...

I could say a lot more but I'll just some it up like this...If you gonna call me out call me out and prove me wrong to come out and say "your a newie here so your dumb and full of BS and you must be 15," thats weak when you have no material other than your insults
Click to expand...

Thank you for some clarification. No one will argue that Roddick/Karlovic have great serves. But you are using pure statistics to base your claim. Those stats need to be given for you to have any credit.

Again, you missed Drakulie's point and to me he was saying Karlovic's serve is great only against inferior players. He loses alot in the later rounds when he plays better players (ones that return well). He used Federer as a point that although Karlvic, stastically speaking is the best server, Feder out serves him when they play. 5 mathces is not a lot, but it does say something. Put Pete's serve against any of the top servers in his day and you would probably find he outaced or won more service points than his opponent. Pete dominaed EVERYONE he served against (I am talking strictly points won on serve and serve% wins). Karlovic can't say the same thing. That is why agree w/Drakulie that Karlovic is not as good a server as Pete.

So Agassi never said Pete's name. You see, you made false claims. Agassi never, ever said Roddick has a better serve than Pete. He was just making a point about how great Roddick serves. Its not like he compared Roddick and Pete's serve. YOU are assuming this.

Again..Agassi said Pete is the best server ever (I will find the interview. I just saw it).

You are the one calling people names and being arguementative.:-?
 
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
Jonnyf said:
What are you talking about? The guy says that Agassi told him If you're not going to listen to what's physically said and realise that maybe just maybe someone with an actual insight into the pro players opinion knows better than us, then frankly you're not worth the effort. I don't have some transcript of any interviews and frankly it's a waste of time me trying to explain: my opinion, what appear to be Agassi's opinion, and plenty more people's opinion. If you're not going to have an open mind and listen to anybody else then frankly just forget it. Congratulations feel happy that you're "right" :roll:
Click to expand...

I don't understand what your problem is. YOU said McEnroe said he was told by Agassi that Roddick has the best serve ever. YOU SAID IT. I am just saying Mac never said it. The other guy did and I don't even know who he is...is he a player?

I don't need a transcript...I heard it.

Again and for the last time...Agassi NEVER SAID IT. Its HEARSAY. You have to take it with a grain of salt. You believe whatever people will say that someone else said to them in private? You would be a horrible judge. I have heard Agassi say Pete is the best server. So that is why I don't believe it.
 
Jonnyf

Jonnyf

Hall of Fame
slappano said:
I don't understand what your problem is. YOU said McEnroe said he was told by Agassi that Roddick has the best serve ever. YOU SAID IT. I am just saying Mac never said it. The other guy did and I don't even know who he is...is he a player?

I don't need a transcript...I heard it.

Again and for the last time...Agassi NEVER SAID IT. Its HEARSAY. You have to take it with a grain of salt. You believe whatever people will say that someone else said to them in private? You would be a horrible judge. I have heard Agassi say Pete is the best server. So that is why I don't believe it.
Click to expand...


Write, Sorry that I mixed the commentators up, I have no idea who the other guy is, mainly because we don't get him over here! Fair point with the hearsay, but then you're argument becomes hypocritical doesn't it atleast until you post the transcript you say you have where Agassi says Sampras's serve is the best. These transcript's couldn't they also mean that on a particular day Agassi felt that Sampras's serve was truly unreturnable and therefor, was the best ever. Maybe now adays he feels Roddick's is the best. However, we've got to ask why are we arguing this isn't exactly important is it?:confused:


Didn't mean to annoy you
JF
 
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
Jonnyf said:
Write, Sorry that I mixed the commentators up, I have no idea who the other guy is, mainly because we don't get him over here! Fair point with the hearsay, but then you're argument becomes hypocritical doesn't it atleast until you post the transcript you say you have where Agassi says Sampras's serve is the best. These transcript's couldn't they also mean that on a particular day Agassi felt that Sampras's serve was truly unreturnable and therefor, was the best ever. Maybe now adays he feels Roddick's is the best. However, we've got to ask why are we arguing this isn't exactly important is it?:confused:


Didn't mean to annoy you
JF
Click to expand...

When I mentioned Agassi stated Pete had the best serve I asked more than once if anyone had the clip or any quotes. I was clear that I was not sure where I heard it, but I did. I just can't say for certainty the exact wording. How am I being a hypocrite? I know what I heard, but tried to pawn it off as a fact...unlike other people on this thread.

I agree that Agassi may feel Pete is the best one day and Roddick the next. I just look at it this way. Pete dominated Agassi for the most part. While Andre did win 14 times, Pete won 4/5 majors vs Agassi. On the other hand, Agassi beat Roddick 5/6 times.

I don't feel the arguement is important, but it is interesting and hope to confirm just what Agassi has said about Roddicks and Sampras's serves.

I don't get annoyed...I get angry!!:twisted::)
 
flyer

flyer

Hall of Fame
slappano said:
Thank you for some clarification. No one will argue that Roddick/Karlovic have great serves. But you are using pure statistics to base your claim. Those stats need to be given for you to have any credit.

Again, you missed Drakulie's point and to me he was saying Karlovic's serve is great only against inferior players. He loses alot in the later rounds when he plays better players (ones that return well). He used Federer as a point that although Karlvic, stastically speaking is the best server, Feder out serves him when they play. 5 mathces is not a lot, but it does say something. Put Pete's serve against any of the top servers in his day and you would probably find he outaced or won more service points than his opponent. Pete dominaed EVERYONE he served against (I am talking strictly points won on serve and serve% wins). Karlovic can't say the same thing. That is why agree w/Drakulie that Karlovic is not as good a server as Pete.


So Agassi never said Pete's name. You see, you made false claims. Agassi never, ever said Roddick has a better serve than Pete. He was just making a point about how great Roddick serves. Its not like he compared Roddick and Pete's serve. YOU are assuming this.


Again..Agassi said Pete is the best server ever (I will find the interview. I just saw it).

You are the one calling people names and being arguementative.:-?
Click to expand...

Ok your right but Federer, Sampras, etc also play inferior opponents they play the ealry round too...statistically pete dominated less on his serve, but I see your point you have to understand though what made Pete serve so amzing was that he had the game to back it up(albe to get to net, movement, volley, etc.) but thats the mistake a lot of people make they look at his game too, if you look only at his pure serve, likeif the game were only serves and returns Karlovic has the greatest serve and Roddicks was better than Petes, when you analys the serve you have to be careful to analys only the serve and not include other components of the game that skew the numbers... such as petes better other qualities that made his serve seem better, so petes serve against the other top servers in his day, you pointed out points won on serve and serve% wins, those are affaected by movement, volley, etc so they are skewed when analysing just the serve, you see?

I didn't make false claims Agassi said Roddick had the best serve ever, that automatically compares him to everyone who has ever sevred a tennis ball, if you say its the bets ever you mean better than anybody else ever, that includes pete...common sense


Really am I because I never called you anything and you called me a newie, a clueless 15 year old, a damn liar, and said i was full of BS
 
Azzurri

Azzurri

Legend
flyer said:
Ok your right but Federer, Sampras, etc also play inferior opponents they play the ealry round too...statistically pete dominated less on his serve, but I see your point you have to understand though what made Pete serve so amzing was that he had the game to back it up(albe to get to net, movement, volley, etc.) but thats the mistake a lot of people make they look at his game too, if you look only at his pure serve, likeif the game were only serves and returns Karlovic has the greatest serve and Roddicks was better than Petes, when you analys the serve you have to be careful to analys only the serve and not include other components of the game that skew the numbers... such as petes better other qualities that made his serve seem better, so petes serve against the other top servers in his day, you pointed out points won on serve and serve% wins, those are affaected by movement, volley, etc so they are skewed when analysing just the serve, you see?

I didn't make false claims Agassi said Roddick had the best serve ever, that automatically compares him to everyone who has ever sevred a tennis ball, if you say its the bets ever you mean better than anybody else ever, that includes pete...common sense


Really am I because I never called you anything and you called me a newie, a clueless 15 year old, a damn liar, and said i was full of BS
Click to expand...

LOL...I meant Newbie...:razz: I have called many, many people liars. It seems to work.:)

OK. I see your point and can totally understand your direction. I would need to see some stats on Karlovic (more so to see the difference between him/Pete and Roddick). Yes, Pete had a far better game than Karlovic and pretty much better than anything Roddick has too. If you look at Pete's game from 92-99, he was all game player early and started to be a pure S&V player towards the middle of the 90's. Pete's forehand was terrific. I chekced some old articles and have plenty of video to support that. His back hand was pretty good, but nothing like his FH.

Agassi never said that. I would have thrown a couch at the TV if Agassi said that. Roddick has pace and that's all. Pete had placement, spin and speed. Agassi had all sorts of problems with Pete's serve. I think that Roddick is Goran like in serve (Agassi thought nothing much of Goran and even said it was easy to return (for him). How or why would Agassi say that is just not possible. Goran is known to have the best serve in the 90's (at least pace and angle). No way Roddick is better than Goran.
 
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