What sort of gamesmanship do you engage in?
- Thread starter r2473
- Start date
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
Seriously has ANYONE kept track of whether someone was serving 25s after they were supposed to (and enforced ANY kind of penalty)? And I don't mean from the time the point is over... I believe there is a provision for poor folks (like me) that play without ballboys/girls.. the time starts when you retrieve the ball, and after you return back to the baseline. And you know that time someone takes to get that ball can be very long...
I had someone try to call that on me once, I reiterated the rule, and mentioned if they'd like to speed up the game play, I'll wait at my spot at the baseline, while he retrieved the ball and handed it to me.
It's obvious this rule is not even enforced at the pro level (eg. Nadal, Djoker), so why even pretend worry about it at the rec level (unless you're just trying to rattle your opponent - but then I think calling foot faults and phantom lets would be more productive).
Last edited by a moderator:
WBF- honestly I have no idea what on my list you would even find questionable sportsmanship. Talking out loud to myself about the opponent's weaknesses is about as close to the line as I think you get but you have to understand that this is part of me talking to myself out loud after every point. I am just not holding back the commentary on their game and yeah this sets people off.
If those things wouldn't affect you then what have I lost by doing them? Its just small advantages to take advantage of the mental issues that some opponents have. I really don't see attacking their confidence as any different than attacking their backhand.
Pick one you think is the worst out of my list and lets discuss it since I don't think there is anything at all wrong with any of them.
If those things wouldn't affect you then what have I lost by doing them? Its just small advantages to take advantage of the mental issues that some opponents have. I really don't see attacking their confidence as any different than attacking their backhand.
Pick one you think is the worst out of my list and lets discuss it since I don't think there is anything at all wrong with any of them.
You posted the list in a thread asking what sort of gamesmanship you partake in. Did you not know the definition of gamesmanship? Or did you post in the wrong thread? This is a bit of a subjective matter, so I won't bother arguing that your actions constitute gamesmanship... but the fact remains, you posted these in a thread on the gamesmanship one partakes in.
Feel free to use euphamisms such as your own definition.
I don't partake in anything remotely close to gamesmanship. I'm more likely to give away a free point than to try something sleazy like some act of gamesmanship. I prefer to win through my own talent or lose through my own talent, rather than win through some other means.
gamesmanship has 2 definitions- one discussing the larger grouping of actions to give an advantage, one to discuss the dubious methods. . NONE of the things I listed are at all unfair. You can choose to take the narrow view of the word if you like, but gamesmanship is also the word used to describe the things that I discussed that are not at all unfair.
Gamesmanship to me is all about getting a tactical advantage over an opponent. There is nothing inherently dishonest about that.
Gamesmanship to me is all about getting a tactical advantage over an opponent. There is nothing inherently dishonest about that.
Last edited:
It is rather amusing that you continue to defend the tactics which you already expressly posted as acts of gamesmanship. The intent you describe behind each indicates that you are correctly labelling these actions as gamesmanship.
Chitchatting with an opponent is one thing.
You explained yourself quite clearly. It is obvious that you have no qualms with utilizing gamesmanship when playing tennis.
Brief side story: At last years indoor national open, there was a kid who did some of the same stuff you explain. He would exclaim stuff like "COME ON, HE'S JUST A BIG SERVE AND NOTHING ELSE" (quite loudly) and other stuff you might expect from a petulant child on the court. Sadly, I don't even think he was embarassed with his behavior. Spectators seemed aghast at the behavior. His opponent calmly walked through the rest of the match with 'only a serve'. I'm curious, when your tactics don't work as you plan them to, do you have tantrums on the court?
Chitchatting with an opponent is one thing.
You explained yourself quite clearly. It is obvious that you have no qualms with utilizing gamesmanship when playing tennis.
Brief side story: At last years indoor national open, there was a kid who did some of the same stuff you explain. He would exclaim stuff like "COME ON, HE'S JUST A BIG SERVE AND NOTHING ELSE" (quite loudly) and other stuff you might expect from a petulant child on the court. Sadly, I don't even think he was embarassed with his behavior. Spectators seemed aghast at the behavior. His opponent calmly walked through the rest of the match with 'only a serve'. I'm curious, when your tactics don't work as you plan them to, do you have tantrums on the court?
Last edited:
r2473
G.O.A.T.
I have read the book and agree to a certain extent, but........
Maybe we should ask Gilbert's opponents what they thought of his methods. As far as I recall, his fellow competitors didn't care much for him (because he was a jerk, not because they were jealous of his superior mental approach to the game).
exactly- I have no problem with "The art or practice of using tactical maneuvers to further one's aims or better one's position" when playing tennis. The term doesn't have a strictly negative connotation to me, you are free to use your narrow definition all you like. Its a tactical maneuver to better my position that is not at all unfair or sleezy. The proper term for that is gamesmanship... if you would like to provide a different word for that then please do so.
Steady Eddy
Legend
I'd never heard Gamesmanship defined as "getting a tactical advantage over an opponent." That's not to say that such a definition may not legitimately exist. But I think when discussing tennis, you shouldn't have this definition in mind. Most people do not understand the term this way, and so you will mislead them. Talk about tactics instead. Now both parties will have the same idea in mind. I'm sure I could post a poll on the forum and we'd see that to tennis players, someone who uses Gamesmanship is someone who trying to win through questionable means.
I fail to see any second definition for gamesmanship. While there are several variations on the definition brought about through various sources, they all indicate the same idea. You simply chose the most positive sounding definition. I'm guessing you realize how sleazy your actions are, and you don't want to be viewed this way even as an anonymous poster on an internet discussion forum. Unfortunately for you, it's too late.
Steady Eddy- choosing to talk to an opponent over a changeover when I have the lead in a match is gaining a tactical advantage over my opponent. But its not at all dishonest, sleezy, and doesn't give any unfair advantage. But it also certainly wouldn't fall into the category of "tactics" in my book. If you want to come up with a new word to describe things like this then lets hear it, but the proper term is still gamesmanship.
Tennis Truth
Rookie
This goes much further than most people
I have never had an opponent who audibly will say derogatory things about my game while we are playing a match, ie ..."his second serve is a joke"... I think 99% of people would agree that that is not "appropriate." Note that this is not like someone talking to himself. The poster intentionally does this so that the opponent will hear it. For those who think this is "appropriate," well good luck to you.
I have never had an opponent who audibly will say derogatory things about my game while we are playing a match, ie ..."his second serve is a joke"... I think 99% of people would agree that that is not "appropriate." Note that this is not like someone talking to himself. The poster intentionally does this so that the opponent will hear it. For those who think this is "appropriate," well good luck to you.
dak95_00
Hall of Fame
My gamesmanship:
1) I never pick a ball up no matter how close it is to the net, how easy it is for me to flip back, regardless of the score if it is on my opponents side of the net. Why should I allow them more time to be ready than I would get. I can walk back to the baseline faster than they can walk to the net and back to the baseline.
2) If I thought it was out, I call it out. I never play a ball that was "close" in somebody else's favor. I figure they should do the same. I thought it was out and I know that I am not cheating.
Now besides that, I never do anything else that is ridiculous like hitting a ball away from an opponent on purpose between points. With warm-ups, I hit like I normally would and I'll request balls be put in certain places i.e. forehand, backhand, etc. If an opponent can't do this, they are going to get beaten anyways or are just idiots, etc.
I am a talker but I would take offense at a person who commented on my game while playing. I am also confrontational so I would let them no it too in the form of a statement like, "Talk to yourself about your game or I'll kick your *** and I'm not talking about a game of tennis." A person who gets this from me might be chasing balls all over the court too. Other than that, I'm a very good guy to play and hit with.
1) I never pick a ball up no matter how close it is to the net, how easy it is for me to flip back, regardless of the score if it is on my opponents side of the net. Why should I allow them more time to be ready than I would get. I can walk back to the baseline faster than they can walk to the net and back to the baseline.
2) If I thought it was out, I call it out. I never play a ball that was "close" in somebody else's favor. I figure they should do the same. I thought it was out and I know that I am not cheating.
Now besides that, I never do anything else that is ridiculous like hitting a ball away from an opponent on purpose between points. With warm-ups, I hit like I normally would and I'll request balls be put in certain places i.e. forehand, backhand, etc. If an opponent can't do this, they are going to get beaten anyways or are just idiots, etc.
I am a talker but I would take offense at a person who commented on my game while playing. I am also confrontational so I would let them no it too in the form of a statement like, "Talk to yourself about your game or I'll kick your *** and I'm not talking about a game of tennis." A person who gets this from me might be chasing balls all over the court too. Other than that, I'm a very good guy to play and hit with.
tennis truth- You have never heard someone say "His serve isn't that strong- just step in and hit it" after missing a serve? People badmouth each other's game on the court all the time in different ways. I just don't care if my opponent hears when I am coaching myself out there. And damn right I am talking to myself things about my opponent I want to exploit.
LawnChairGeneral
Rookie
The fact that some think gamesmanship is sleazy does not make it an ineffective technique. This is a thread about the types of gamesmanship that people partake in, not a thread about who thinks it is morally wrong.
Steady Eddy
Legend
Where's that definition from? And even if it is a legitimate definition, it might still not be the best word to use. If someone asks me to pick a number between one and ten, I could answer, "pi". Hey! It's between one and ten. But they probably meant an integer between one and ten. Even though they "didn't say that". When using public words, it is best to use them with their public meanings.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
Suppose they asked you not to talk to them. Would you continue to do it anyway?
ha- no way. But thats sort of the point of this, its subtle where the opponent doesn't realize the benefit you get from it. If you are an idiot about it and trying to talk every second that they are on the changeover it will just annoy them and make them more focused. I just want them to start thinking of the match in terms of it being more social and less competitive.
Though I will say that this tactic has burned me in mixed doubles before. My partner and I were playing mixed doubles and won the first set and got a lead in the second. I started doing my little chit chat routine and my partner (who normally feeds off of intensity) sort of lost her focus with all the conversation and we ended up dropping the second set. In the third set I went back to straight intensity with her and we cruised.
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
That doesn't sound like gamesmanship in any form. You are just saying you call the ball as you see it. Right?
What is an example of someone commenting on your game while playing? Good shot? Nice forehand? You threaten to beat people up if they comment on your game while playing? I gotta hear this...expound please (You know that is assaut in a court right? Sounds silly, but I have a buddy who has a record because of making a comment to a younger player once for real - just a comment, not a fight).
Tennis Truth
Rookie
Spot,
To answer your question; No, I have never heard anyone say derogatory things about my game, or comment on my weaknesses or say which shots I could not hit, while we are in the middle of a match.
I might be crazy, but I would think most people would think that was "out of line."
I have three questions.
1) Have you "really" said derogatory and belittling things about an opponent's game during a match, so they could hear you?
2) How often do you do that?
3) Is there any kind of gamesmanship that you think goes too far?
I think this is a good thread because the best way to counteract gamesmanship is to first understand that it is happening.
People who play a lot of "games" that overtly irritate their opponents, eventually find out that "gamesmanship" does not happily co-exist with "social" tennis. ie no one wants to play with them.
To answer your question; No, I have never heard anyone say derogatory things about my game, or comment on my weaknesses or say which shots I could not hit, while we are in the middle of a match.
I might be crazy, but I would think most people would think that was "out of line."
I have three questions.
1) Have you "really" said derogatory and belittling things about an opponent's game during a match, so they could hear you?
2) How often do you do that?
3) Is there any kind of gamesmanship that you think goes too far?
I think this is a good thread because the best way to counteract gamesmanship is to first understand that it is happening.
People who play a lot of "games" that overtly irritate their opponents, eventually find out that "gamesmanship" does not happily co-exist with "social" tennis. ie no one wants to play with them.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
I don't think that dissing your opponent's game out loud is necessarily gamesmanship.
I just think it's kinda rude.
If my doubles partner made a remark about my opponents' game such that they could hear it, I would be *mortified.* I would do everything I could to make sure this stuff was said well out of earshot. 'Cause I'd be so *embarrassed* for her.
I just think it's kinda rude.
If my doubles partner made a remark about my opponents' game such that they could hear it, I would be *mortified.* I would do everything I could to make sure this stuff was said well out of earshot. 'Cause I'd be so *embarrassed* for her.
Tennis Truth
Rookie
Cindy,
Although it was intended by the poster to be "gamesmanship," I agree with you, if you are questioning its potential effectiveness.
Singles is a different game from doubles though, and I think some things that would not work in doubles, might work in singles. In singles, you are often "alone in the desert." In doubles, you have your partner for support, so I think you are more insulated from the "games." In fact, in doubles if someone dissed my game, I might be more inclined to joke with my partner about the "rude" behavior. I might also start talking with the offender's partner to see if they actually condone such behavior. More often than not, I think the offender's partner would be embarrassed by the "squirrelly" behavior, just as you wrote in your post.
Although it was intended by the poster to be "gamesmanship," I agree with you, if you are questioning its potential effectiveness.
Singles is a different game from doubles though, and I think some things that would not work in doubles, might work in singles. In singles, you are often "alone in the desert." In doubles, you have your partner for support, so I think you are more insulated from the "games." In fact, in doubles if someone dissed my game, I might be more inclined to joke with my partner about the "rude" behavior. I might also start talking with the offender's partner to see if they actually condone such behavior. More often than not, I think the offender's partner would be embarrassed by the "squirrelly" behavior, just as you wrote in your post.
So intentionally deceiving your opponent into thinking you are genuinely friendly with the express intent of making them play worse than they typically would is not sleazy? I mean... That's just low. Who the hell would be proud of beating an opponent who isn't at their best? That's about as lame as a 5.0 playing and winning in the 3.0's and being proud of it. I can't believe someone would stoop that low and have the audacity to defend that sort of behavior.
What do you mean by 'thought it was out'? Unless you see that the ball is out with complete certainty, calling it out is cheating. If you are assuming that there was a gap, but you aren't sure, and call it out anyhow, you are cheating. Opponents will not 'do the same'. You call the balls out ONLY if it is out, not if you 'think' it was out. A close ball that is in is in. You can't just assume that a close ball is out.
WBF- no- thats not sleazy at all. I will talk to them all match long, I will just make a point to always do it when I am up and if I am down I won't talk because I want to focus on what I need to change.
TT- I will absolutely talk to myself out loud all match long about whatever I would want a coach to be telling me. "You missed that because of poor footwork", "Why did you hit the sharp angle instead of just hitting it deep crosscourt?", "Keep your wrist back and hit through teh ball". If my opponent listens in they will get insight into exactly how I am going to be playing in fact. I have an auditory memory and it just helps me to literally hear the words. And yeah- I will absolutely talk about my opponents game as well. "He can't pass you on the backhand". "Take advantage of that second serve". And if I think that my opponent is a headcase I will not care if they overhear what I am saying about their game.
Put this into a different context. When I played football I played wide receiver quite a bit. Often during the game I would tell the guy covering me exactly what I was going to do, because when I was still able to do it it hurt them mentally even more. "Just so you know, I am taking you deep on this play, and even knowing that I am pretty sure you can't keep up". THis is pretty purely gamesmanship in my mind but I can't see how anyone would think it was the least bit unethical.
But sure- lots of gamesmanship can go too far. I think there are plenty of things that you could do that are within the letter of the law but against the spirit of the rules.
Some players intentionally give crappy balls when their opponent is warming up their volleys. Some players like to go out and crush returns when their opponent is serving. I think these are a couple examples of gamesmanship that goes too far.
TT- I will absolutely talk to myself out loud all match long about whatever I would want a coach to be telling me. "You missed that because of poor footwork", "Why did you hit the sharp angle instead of just hitting it deep crosscourt?", "Keep your wrist back and hit through teh ball". If my opponent listens in they will get insight into exactly how I am going to be playing in fact. I have an auditory memory and it just helps me to literally hear the words. And yeah- I will absolutely talk about my opponents game as well. "He can't pass you on the backhand". "Take advantage of that second serve". And if I think that my opponent is a headcase I will not care if they overhear what I am saying about their game.
Put this into a different context. When I played football I played wide receiver quite a bit. Often during the game I would tell the guy covering me exactly what I was going to do, because when I was still able to do it it hurt them mentally even more. "Just so you know, I am taking you deep on this play, and even knowing that I am pretty sure you can't keep up". THis is pretty purely gamesmanship in my mind but I can't see how anyone would think it was the least bit unethical.
But sure- lots of gamesmanship can go too far. I think there are plenty of things that you could do that are within the letter of the law but against the spirit of the rules.
Some players intentionally give crappy balls when their opponent is warming up their volleys. Some players like to go out and crush returns when their opponent is serving. I think these are a couple examples of gamesmanship that goes too far.
Last edited:
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
Ah, good catch WBF - I assumed he SAW it out clearly. Yeah, if someone thinks it's out, but doesn't see it out, and calls it out, that is 100% clearly cheating - not gamesmanship.
I see this from 3.5's when I use heavy top spin - they tend to 'track' it going out, call it out, then watch it 'dip' in. Usually they reverse the call. :wink:
And WBF- if you only want to beat people at their best that means you would never target a weak backhand right? You play to their strengths and let the best player win? Not me at all. If I can have a better player shaking their head at the end of the match wondering how they lost thats absolutely fine with me. Mental strength is a skill, and its absolutely one of my strongest skills. I don't get flustered when I am down and I keep going to plan B, C, or D if what I start doing isn't working. So little things to exploit opponents who are weak mentally I don't see any problem with at all. You may want to beat someone while they are playing their best, I prefer to make people beat me with what they do their worst.
Last edited:
Tennis Truth
Rookie
Huh?
Hi Spot,
So above you posted that you think it goes too far if someone "gives crappy balls" during volley warmup, and when they "crush service returns" during the warmup. So some of your original "gamesmanship" items are almost idential.
In the warmup, you said you often give your opponent only forehands, and will hit them more challenging lobs than they would like. Seems like virtually the same stuff to me. Much less offensive than dissing your opponent's game. I don't even really think "all forehands" and "challenging lobs" are that big a deal, so I'm all the more suprised by your above post.
But anyway, I grow weary of the revisions and rationalizations. Best of luck to you. I'm sure if we played, we would probably get along fine, as I think you probably described your "gamesmanship" in harsher terms in your original post than what you actually do most of the time.
Take care.
Hi Spot,
So above you posted that you think it goes too far if someone "gives crappy balls" during volley warmup, and when they "crush service returns" during the warmup. So some of your original "gamesmanship" items are almost idential.
In the warmup, you said you often give your opponent only forehands, and will hit them more challenging lobs than they would like. Seems like virtually the same stuff to me. Much less offensive than dissing your opponent's game. I don't even really think "all forehands" and "challenging lobs" are that big a deal, so I'm all the more suprised by your above post.
But anyway, I grow weary of the revisions and rationalizations. Best of luck to you. I'm sure if we played, we would probably get along fine, as I think you probably described your "gamesmanship" in harsher terms in your original post than what you actually do most of the time.
Take care.
All forehands aren't a big deal- if the opponent doesn't feel that they have enough balls to their backhand they can just move over and start taking more there or ask to get balls hit to their backhand. I am not putting balls into the forehand corner or anything like that- just hitting consistently to the forehand. I don't see how hitting challenging lobs is any "worse" than hitting paddycake lobs that offer no challenge. Neither of these are at all a big deal and neither one has ever been an issue in a match before. These are subtle small things that I think can help- thats all gamesmanship is to me.
The only issue I have ever had with an opponent who had a problem with my playing style was when I faced a big server and I was playing long serves even as I called them out. But he was S&Ving so I couldn't chip back returns and in order to take a full cut at the ball I had to start my swing early. He asked me to stop playing out balls and I told him why I was going to keep doing it. (though I did totally stop on second serves since this wasn't an issue) I think the guy was pretty irritated about my answer but I figure it was better to play the out balls than to watch one land in for an ace because I thought it was going to be long.
The only issue I have ever had with an opponent who had a problem with my playing style was when I faced a big server and I was playing long serves even as I called them out. But he was S&Ving so I couldn't chip back returns and in order to take a full cut at the ball I had to start my swing early. He asked me to stop playing out balls and I told him why I was going to keep doing it. (though I did totally stop on second serves since this wasn't an issue) I think the guy was pretty irritated about my answer but I figure it was better to play the out balls than to watch one land in for an ace because I thought it was going to be long.
Last edited:
Tennis Truth
Rookie
As expected.
At some point the parsing, rationalizations, and backpedeling remove any doubt that there is even a shred of reasonableness or logic present.
Well done, my friend. I admire your obstinance.
Can we set up a game for next Tuesday?
At some point the parsing, rationalizations, and backpedeling remove any doubt that there is even a shred of reasonableness or logic present.
Well done, my friend. I admire your obstinance.
Can we set up a game for next Tuesday?
split-step
Professional
As I said earlier in this thread I don't engage in gamesmanship and am unfazed by it.
I have had some very rude ignorant attempts of gamesmanship thrown my way during my years as a junior.
A lot of what spot is describing except even more brazen. It is just childish and makes you look like like you lack home training.
One of the less offensive ones I've had was when I hit a deep approach to the backhand side and moved in. My opponent hit a crosscourt BH pass but it caught the tape and went back to his side.
He then proceeded to shout 'make him hit a backhand. He has no backhand'
He picked the wrong person to try his games on because I can let things go in an instant. I was taken aback for about 2 seconds but after that I was planning the next point.
I have too much confidence in my groundstrokes to let something like that affect me. Even when I am playing badly.
Mental game is my strongest weapon on the court.
I would never dream of doing something as cheap as that to gain an advantage.
I have had some very rude ignorant attempts of gamesmanship thrown my way during my years as a junior.
A lot of what spot is describing except even more brazen. It is just childish and makes you look like like you lack home training.
One of the less offensive ones I've had was when I hit a deep approach to the backhand side and moved in. My opponent hit a crosscourt BH pass but it caught the tape and went back to his side.
He then proceeded to shout 'make him hit a backhand. He has no backhand'
He picked the wrong person to try his games on because I can let things go in an instant. I was taken aback for about 2 seconds but after that I was planning the next point.
I have too much confidence in my groundstrokes to let something like that affect me. Even when I am playing badly.
Mental game is my strongest weapon on the court.
I would never dream of doing something as cheap as that to gain an advantage.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
I don't see why this would be bad. I play out serves all the time and call out as I am swinging.
Doesn't everyone do this? How can you "load up" for a return and then not swing if the ball lands out. You commit to swinging so much earlier than you know if the ball is in or out.
What I do hate though are people that decide late that the ball was out (like after their return sails out). You have to yell out before or as you strike the ball. Not after it lands on the other side of the court.
And with my partners / opponents, "no call" means the ball was in (unless you just obviously chip it into the net or something on a ball that was clearly out). Reason is, the returner gets to make the call. If he plays a ball you thought was out and you don't even make a move for it, he wins the point. So, if he pushes back a ball that he thought was clearly out (unless it is like a mile out), I have to play it. Now, if he doesn't make a call, pushes the ball back, but I am sure it was out too, I am not going to take the point. But, I may be a bit annoyed that he didn't just say "out" or in some other way make it perfectly obvious.
Steady Eddy
Legend
It's easier if people just call every out ball "out". Sometimes what's obvious to one person, isn't to another. The rules say you have to call it "instantaneously", which means, before your return has had a chance to land in or out. So you don't: go for a winner, miss, then say, "Your shot was out in the first place, my point."
Sometimes one can't help returning an out serve. But in doubles, alot of 1st serves aren't hit that hard. I hate it when I feel my 1st serve is way long. Then I see the opponent running really far to hit it, and then, as he hits it saying, "Long!" Now we've got a loose ball between serves, and there was no good reason for it to even be struck. Announcers explain that a player should play every serve, because it might get called in, but that doesn't apply when you're making your own calls, and there are no ball girls/boys. That advice is for pros. Not for self-refereed matches.
LawnChairGeneral
Rookie
How do you feel about those who call the serve out but intentionally hit the ball into the net? Either the net catches the ball or it rolls harmlessly to the side. It can be quicker to get the next point going because you aren't always retrieving balls at the back fence between points.
Also, if a guy is a quick server, a loose ball forces him to slow down his routine, giving me more time to prepare for the second serve.
What if he is consistently aiming for a spot, or always serving to your backhand and you are having trouble returning it? It can benefit you to practice returning the out serves so you are more prepared when he does connect on one. Hitting quality returns on out serves can also let your opponent know that you are ready for that particular serve in that particular location. He might think twice about hitting there again.
So I had a thought about this today, as I am up early because playoffs start today! (even though my mixed team is likely to get beat down) I wonder if the people who are appalled by the "gamesmanship" examples played any other sports on a competitive level. I mean in football or lacrosse you would go through much more overt methods of trying to manipulate your opponents. I just get the feeling that the people in this thread who hate all types of gamesmanship may never have played any other sports at a high level and are drawn to tennis because of the more refined aspect of it. They don't WANT to play the mental games that go along with competition. Where for me, I have played those mental games for so long in other sports it just comes natural for me to keep seeking out those advantages in small ways when its easy to do and I don't do them in an unfair way.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Good luck today, Spot!!
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
Yeah - when you play guys putting serves in at 90+, you don't have time to look where the serve hit, and THEN start your stroke, it's all ONE motion from the moment he serves it until you return it. ie, he is striking the ball, you are already in the middle of your split step in the air, the ball is in the air heading your way you have already coiled with a unit turn, by the time it hits your court, you have only a split fraction to do something - uncoil.
And I have never seen a real S&V player that served weak slow serves, LOL.
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
I hear you Spot - I do. I played many other sports, and yes, gamesmanship was such a part of it, we didn't even know what to call it. In boxing, you do whatever is legal and sometimes not legal to keep your opponent out of his range or comfort zone because you are going to get whacked in the face and it hurts, LOL.
I can see the parallels with other sports. I guess with tennis, for me at least, it is more refined yes, but more like sport combined with music or dance. I want to win, because, well, you are supposed to win right? But on the other hand, I want to PLAY tennis well, like you would play music well during a performance. I want to be balanced, use good mechanics, hit nice shots, defend well, ----I dunno ---- it's just FUN to play good tennis. *shrug*
Yeah, there are moments I'll play however I have to grind out a win - but 95% of the time, I just don't feel any need for gamesmanship. The funny thing is...I only use it if the other guy is using it, because, once again for me, it's sorta fun. That may sound strange - if it's fun, why don't I do it more? It is not fun for me to use it to try to win per se, it's only fun when the other guy is using it, and I am rolling with his energy, and using it back - kinda like playing tag with a kid, LOL. I never initiate it.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
This is clearly gamesmanship and is specifically prohibited by The Code:
28. Obvious faults. A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an
obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of
gamesmanship. On the other hand, if a player does not call a serve a fault and
gives the opponent the benefit of a close call, the server is not entitled to
replay the point.
Crusher10s
Rookie
See Spot, you figured it out all by yourself: tennis is a refined, gentle game, designed with subtlety in mind. It is not football, boxing or any other openly agressive and cutthroat game intended for the lower classes. And no I'm not either making this up or acting elitist, it's history, pure and simple.
The premise and culture of tennis has changed over time as it has become a common man's game instead of what it was originally meant to be. That's fine with me but until some governing body tells me it's okay to engage in gamesmanship, I'll continue playing the game like it was originally intended to be: a game of honor and good will.
The premise and culture of tennis has changed over time as it has become a common man's game instead of what it was originally meant to be. That's fine with me but until some governing body tells me it's okay to engage in gamesmanship, I'll continue playing the game like it was originally intended to be: a game of honor and good will.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Spot didn't say he was putting *obvious faults* into play. He said he was calling and swinging at the same time.
So long as it isn't deliberate, I think higher level players are justified in playing a lot of "out" serves because the ball comes too fast.
It is the players who return every single fault because they think they are being helpful that are well and truly annoying.
crusher- and thats the difference between us. Tennis is still a sport. Don't keep score if you want it to be a gentle game. Personally I love the fact that tennis has become a common man's game because so many more people play. The sport was originally meant to be elitist when you think about it. If it was strictly for elitists then none of the great friends I have made through the sport would have ever started playing.
Last edited:
Crusher10s
Rookie
(This is a posting error, please ignore)
Last edited:
Crusher10s
Rookie
^^^^Just because the sport was invented by and for gentlemen doesn't mean I or they didn't keep or want to keep score.
Oh and I have no issue with the game evolving into both a game played by the lower classes as well as by women, otherwise I wouldn't be posting to this forum right now (for I am neither a gentleman nor a member of high society). What I am is a woman who believes in letting one's game, not one's ability to use gamesmanship, be the deciding factor on who wins a tennis match.
Oh and I have no issue with the game evolving into both a game played by the lower classes as well as by women, otherwise I wouldn't be posting to this forum right now (for I am neither a gentleman nor a member of high society). What I am is a woman who believes in letting one's game, not one's ability to use gamesmanship, be the deciding factor on who wins a tennis match.
Last edited:
beernutz
Hall of Fame
If the server is able to tell they are faults I think they would qualify as obvious. If spot can't stop his swing he should hit the return into the net as he calls the fault. I don't think the rules are applied differently for high level players.
beernutz, I play in a wide variety of high level tournaments, and returning big serves as you call them out (if they are close) is absolutely the norm. This is the case all the way up to the highest levels without ballboys, such as futures qualifiers. If you are returning a big serve, you need to be concentrating heavily on hitting your return, while processing whether it was in or out as well. Some people have time to adjust their swing slightly if it is out. Most don't (providing we are talking big first serves, as spot said this was only for first serves).
