Gamesmanship V.S. Sportmanship

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
LEARN HOW TO READ?!??! you are becoming a better 3.5 player you said thus you are a low 3.5 right? If you have been playing for longer that 3 years and you are a 3.5 I am sorry buy you are a terrible tennis player and or athlete. You know what you are right I don't know how to read or comprehend what is written... Sir you are a joke honestly a joke, I DON'T CARE WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT ME ON A TALK TENNIS THREAD, you do not get that do you? I make topics that are interesting, not topics about federer's backhand and how he frames a lot of balls, sorry for making an interesting topic...Would you like me to quote your quotes about adding lead to a stick???

Here is the funny part, you have no idea about tennis more than me, I don't care who your "friends" are at clubs, I have tons of top pro friends in Toledo, (we have 4 clubs) Sorry I do not name drop because I think that is lame as hell.

You are lame as hell.

There are like a zillion players at 3.5. Your insane logically conclusion that you cant get better unless you are a low 3.5 is dumb, Im sorry.

And I get it, you dont mind acting like a moron on the court, or on here. That much is obvious. Like I said, you can do whatever you want. If you didnt care about what we thought of you, you wouldnt be responding in such an irrational manner.

And as far as my tennis career that has nothign to do with the subject. I had open heart surgery last year *******, and before that I had ankle surgery, and before that I didnt always have the money to train or take lessons or the time.

And where the hell do you get 3 years from? Are you like 9 years old or something, you keep coming up with these insane conclusions to things when you have no idea what the hell you are even talking about.

I dont care who you know, because you are a moron. Even if they were the greatest tennis pros in the whole world, I doubt you understand anything given what you've managed to write here.

And that's the problem you're going to have. If you are out there acting like a total moron on the court, or on here, or off the court, nobody is going to respect you, and they wont listen to a single thing you have to say. They're just going to picture you like some sort of moronic jerk who likes to make himself look like an ass.

I get it you're probally 19/20 years old and you dont know any better, so maybe I'll cut you a little slack, but hopefully someday you grow up and you realize that you're pretty much just embarressing yourself (rather than romantize about it).

My friends teach a lot of kids at my local tennis club, and the parents who actually care about how their kids look, actually get upset when their kids act stupid, even if it is on a tennis court. It doesnt matter if someone on TV is acting like a jerk, it still makes you look like a jerk when you do it. (and if anything it makes you look like even more of a jerk because at least they are getting paid)
 
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Eric89

Rookie
Sorry I was judging the 2.5 years to get to the 3.5 as it took me 3 years to get to a 4.0 with no coaching or lessons. You win. congrats keep up the good work on the tennis forums.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
Sorry I was judging the 2.5 years to get to the 3.5 as it took me 3 years to get to a 4.0 with no coaching or lessons. You win. congrats keep up the good work on the tennis forums.

Some people are talented, it doesnt mean they have brains or that they know anything though.....

It certainly doesnt mean that you are not a total tool for acting like a complete moron on the tennis court.

Unless one of us has been on TV recently, I dont think either of us has anything to brag about as far as our tennis career goes.

And where the hell do you get the "2.5" years stat from anyway? That's silly, you get new ratings once a year, not every 6 months. You clearly do not know what you are talking about.
 

Eric89

Rookie
Some people are talented, it doesnt mean they have brains or that they know anything though.....

It certainly doesnt mean that you are not a total tool for acting like a complete moron on the tennis court.

Unless one of us has been on TV recently, I dont think either of us has anything to brag about as far as our tennis career goes.

And where the hell do you get the "2.5" years stat from anyway? That's silly, you get new ratings once a year, not every 6 months. You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

Are you stupid or do you just like to argue? I said you win.

Lets get it straight, you think I am a cocky young "tool" that does not have respect for people and makes himself look like an idiot. Maybe you are right and thats fine.

At the same time I think you are no different from the lame adult men that pay 20 dollars a night to play in a stupid 3.5 ladder while a pro watches over them and tells them what the are doing wrong and right.

Nothing is going to change your mind nor mine so...you win okay?
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Eric, I think you are confused on the difference between "gamesmanship" and strategy.

Gamesmanship, according to Dictionary.com, is:

1. the use of methods, esp. in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal.
2. the technique or practice of manipulating people or events so as to gain an advantage or outwit one's opponents or competitors.


Hitting a certain kind of shot (lob, drop shot) to win points is NOT gamesmanship. It is taking advantage of an opponent's weakness or tendencies.

Gamesmanship is faking an injury. Staring people down. Celebrating opponent's errors. Or generally Acting Like A Fool.

And, erm . . . can we lay off the "you aren't entitled to an opinion because of your USTA rating" stuff?
 

Eric89

Rookie
Eric, I think you are confused on the difference between "gamesmanship" and strategy.

Gamesmanship, according to Dictionary.com, is:

1. the use of methods, esp. in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal.
2. the technique or practice of manipulating people or events so as to gain an advantage or outwit one's opponents or competitors.


Hitting a certain kind of shot (lob, drop shot) to win points is NOT gamesmanship. It is taking advantage of an opponent's weakness or tendencies.

Gamesmanship is faking an injury. Staring people down. Celebrating opponent's errors. Or generally Acting Like A Fool.

And, erm . . . can we lay off the "you aren't entitled to an opinion because of your USTA rating" stuff?


I am not confused by gamesmanship and strategy, I just disagree with one certain aspect that some think is strategy and others think is gamesmanship, other than that I would believe we would agree with almost everything else between what is gamesmanship and what is strategy. When it comes to hitting at a girl in mixed doubles, I have never been that competitive in a mix doubles match to hit at the weaker player and I truly would want to believe I am far too much a gentlemen. I never said anything about who is entitled to opinion because of the USTA rating I was just stating that I don't believe a lower rating should give advise about something that could be harmful. I believe that you along with jolly are the two best posters on this entire site and I have never bothered to look at either of your guys rating.
 

Sakkijarvi

Semi-Pro
<At the same time I think you are no different from the lame adult men that pay 20 dollars a night to play in a stupid 3.5 ladder while a pro watches over them and tells them what the are doing wrong and right.>

This sounds like a cool night out. Being a New Yorker, twenty bucks for court time sounds cheap.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
Are you stupid or do you just like to argue? I said you win.

Lets get it straight, you think I am a cocky young "tool" that does not have respect for people and makes himself look like an idiot. Maybe you are right and thats fine.

At the same time I think you are no different from the lame adult men that pay 20 dollars a night to play in a stupid 3.5 ladder while a pro watches over them and tells them what the are doing wrong and right.

Nothing is going to change your mind nor mine so...you win okay?

You think people who choose to play in 3.5 ladders are stupid? That's beyond bizarre.

With bizarre strange comments like that, you are the one who shouldnt be giving anyone any advice.

And again, your theory on that is stupid anyway, you're a 4.0. That's just one small step above being a 3.5, and it's still pretty far from being a complete skiled player.

And from your player record you actually dont have much of a better record at 3.5 then I do anyway, but you did decent enough in 4.0 to get rated up. That's cool, but it doesnt mean you know anything.
 

Sakkijarvi

Semi-Pro
<the use of methods, esp. in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal.>

When I played the king of 'all of the above and then some' for the first time in a club league, I decided I would never waste my time in the guy's company ever again -- time is too precious to need to 'win'. When my slot came up to play him, I sent an 83 year old sub, former corporate shark lawyer, to sub in for me -- I figured they'd make a great match.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
<At the same time I think you are no different from the lame adult men that pay 20 dollars a night to play in a stupid 3.5 ladder while a pro watches over them and tells them what the are doing wrong and right.>

This sounds like a cool night out. Being a New Yorker, twenty bucks for court time sounds cheap.

No kidding. A match AND advice from a pro for $20???? That's awesome.

Only a complete idiot would think that's a waste of money.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
I never said anything about who is entitled to opinion because of the USTA rating I was just stating that I don't believe a lower rating should give advise about something that could be harmful.

Please dont go into politics. You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.
 

Eric89

Rookie
No kidding. A match AND advice from a pro for $20???? That's awesome.

Only a complete idiot would think that's a waste of money.

Welp it cost me 52 dollars a month and I play walk on for free so about 25 times a month and I always have a friend to play with so thats my price, and I'll save the one tip I get so who is the idiot getting taken? You don't get much better from playing matches, you get better from practicing
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I am not confused by gamesmanship and strategy, I just disagree with one certain aspect that some think is strategy and others think is gamesmanship, other than that I would believe we would agree with almost everything else between what is gamesmanship and what is strategy. When it comes to hitting at a girl in mixed doubles, I have never been that competitive in a mix doubles match to hit at the weaker player and I truly would want to believe I am far too much a gentlemen. I never said anything about who is entitled to opinion because of the USTA rating I was just stating that I don't believe a lower rating should give advise about something that could be harmful. I believe that you along with jolly are the two best posters on this entire site and I have never bothered to look at either of your guys rating.

Thanks for the kind words, Eric.

I'm now a 3.5. Last year, I was a 3.0. I think so long as people don't misrepresent their level or experience, everyone ought to feel free to chime in.
 

hyogen

Hall of Fame
I'm pretty sure that somewhere there's a village missing an idiot.

hmm, i don't get this. plz help me understand. it is some saying?

this thread is getting pretty heated!

arguing over the internet is kinda like the special olympics....even if you win.............................................................

just thought we needed a little comic relief :D
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
hmm, i don't get this. plz help me understand. it is some saying?

this thread is getting pretty heated!

arguing over the internet is kinda like the special olympics....even if you win.............................................................

just thought we needed a little comic relief :D


Sorry - I couldn't help myself. I'll behave....for now! ;-)
 

CAM178

Hall of Fame
I am a sportsmanship guy. Rarely do I entertain gamesmanship. But when I do, I love to do it. It is a lot of fun. But my perference is to laugh and have fun playin tennis. As to the gamesmanship thing: occasionally people come along in tennis who are just sh***y people. With these people, it is best to put them in their place, and quickly. But that, to me, only represents 0.1% of the tennis population. The other 99.9% enjoy tennis, and act appropriately on the court. Those are the people I like.
 

burosky

Professional
I am a sportsmanship guy. Rarely do I entertain gamesmanship. But when I do, I love to do it. It is a lot of fun. But my perference is to laugh and have fun playin tennis. As to the gamesmanship thing: occasionally people come along in tennis who are just sh***y people. With these people, it is best to put them in their place, and quickly. But that, to me, only represents 0.1% of the tennis population. The other 99.9% enjoy tennis, and act appropriately on the court. Those are the people I like.

I'm with you on this. After all, for recreational players like us, it is still just a game. For playing professionals whose livelihood depends on winning matches, it may be a different story. I've never been one so I don't know what it's like. I'm not saying it is right for them to do it nor am I condoning the behavior.

I may be completely wrong but as the skill level get higher it seems there are fewer people who resort to gamesmanship. I'm sure others will not agree with this observation. I'm just basing this on my personal experience.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
I'm with you on this. After all, for recreational players like us, it is still just a game. For playing professionals whose livelihood depends on winning matches, it may be a different story. I've never been one so I don't know what it's like. I'm not saying it is right for them to do it nor am I condoning the behavior.

I may be completely wrong but as the skill level get higher it seems there are fewer people who resort to gamesmanship. I'm sure others will not agree with this observation. I'm just basing this on my personal experience.

I will agree with you on that Burosky - 100%. I can't pretend to know what drives more serious players / pros, but it wouldn't be appropriate for the local USTA league in my opinion - although a few still think it is. Either way, it would be totally inappropriate for me personally and I would quit playing if I felt that was a required part of the game.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
My wife shared this one with me. How's this for gamesmanship (Women's interclub - roughly 3.5 level!)

My wife's team is handily winning their match and easily wins the first set and takes an early lead in the second set. One of the lady opponents promptly announces that she has to make a phone call. Thinking that maybe the match was running late and that she was simply notifying a sitter or something, they let it go.

Well, as soon as this woman gets on the phone they can tell right away that she is making a social call. The lady then starts making lunch plans for later in the week and carrying on, laughing, etc.. The call takes a good 10 minutes. Of course they were trying to get her off the phone and implying that the match needed to continue, but there were no officials and the interclub rules were not as clear (or at least not well known by those playing) so they were unable to deter this strong willed woman.

When she finally finishes she looks at my wife's team mates as if to say 'what is your problem' and then returns to playing. Well you can probably guess what happens from here...the two women on my wife's team go into a tail spin and end up losing the match.

Afterwards, they filed a grievance with the league and this lady was reprimanded but the match was not altered. Now I'm pretty sure that was gamesmanship!
 

burosky

Professional
My wife shared this one with me. How's this for gamesmanship (Women's interclub - roughly 3.5 level!)

My wife's team is handily winning their match and easily wins the first set and takes an early lead in the second set. One of the lady opponents promptly announces that she has to make a phone call. Thinking that maybe the match was running late and that she was simply notifying a sitter or something, they let it go.

Well, as soon as this woman gets on the phone they can tell right away that she is making a social call. The lady then starts making lunch plans for later in the week and carrying on, laughing, etc.. The call takes a good 10 minutes. Of course they were trying to get her off the phone and implying that the match needed to continue, but there were no officials and the interclub rules were not as clear (or at least not well known by those playing) so they were unable to deter this strong willed woman.

When she finally finishes she looks at my wife's team mates as if to say 'what is your problem' and then returns to playing. Well you can probably guess what happens from here...the two women on my wife's team go into a tail spin and end up losing the match.

Afterwards, they filed a grievance with the league and this lady was reprimanded but the match was not altered. Now I'm pretty sure that was gamesmanship!

Gamesmanship? I agree but I also believe this is illegal. There is no room for this in an official match. Sad to say but it is basically their fault for being nice to allow the phone call to take place. I know it is one of those situations where it is "damned if you and damned if you don't". If they allow the call this happens. If they don't allow the call they look like arses. The main fault though lies on the person who made the phone call in the first place. Too bad there wasn't anyone around who knows and can enforce the rule.
 

beernutz

Hall of Fame
My wife shared this one with me. How's this for gamesmanship (Women's interclub - roughly 3.5 level!)

My wife's team is handily winning their match and easily wins the first set and takes an early lead in the second set. One of the lady opponents promptly announces that she has to make a phone call. Thinking that maybe the match was running late and that she was simply notifying a sitter or something, they let it go.

Well, as soon as this woman gets on the phone they can tell right away that she is making a social call. The lady then starts making lunch plans for later in the week and carrying on, laughing, etc.. The call takes a good 10 minutes. Of course they were trying to get her off the phone and implying that the match needed to continue, but there were no officials and the interclub rules were not as clear (or at least not well known by those playing) so they were unable to deter this strong willed woman.

When she finally finishes she looks at my wife's team mates as if to say 'what is your problem' and then returns to playing. Well you can probably guess what happens from here...the two women on my wife's team go into a tail spin and end up losing the match.

Afterwards, they filed a grievance with the league and this lady was reprimanded but the match was not altered. Now I'm pretty sure that was gamesmanship!

USTA Comment 30.1: A player may bring to the court written
notes that were prepared before the start of the match and may read
these notes during the match. A player may not use electronic devices
such as cell phones
, digital messaging systems, radios, mp3
players, cd and dvd players, and cassette players. Hearing aids and
watches not capable of receiving messages are permitted. A player
desiring to use any other electronic device should first ask the Referee
whether the device may be used.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Lesson learned:

Be careful what rules you bend. Also, if asked to bend a rule, always ask one key question: "Why?"

Honestly, I would have packed up my stuff and left, claiming the match as a retirement. Our matches are strictly timed, so I think I would have been awarded the match. Would have needed to document the length of the call, though.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
USTA Comment 30.1: A player may bring to the court written
notes that were prepared before the start of the match and may read
these notes during the match. A player may not use electronic devices
such as cell phones, digital messaging systems, radios, mp3
players, cd and dvd players, and cassette players. Hearing aids and
watches not capable of receiving messages are permitted. A player
desiring to use any other electronic device should first ask the Referee
whether the device may be used.

Remember this was not a USTA match.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
Gamesmanship? I agree but I also believe this is illegal. There is no room for this in an official match. Sad to say but it is basically their fault for being nice to allow the phone call to take place. I know it is one of those situations where it is "damned if you and damned if you don't". If they allow the call this happens. If they don't allow the call they look like arses. The main fault though lies on the person who made the phone call in the first place. Too bad there wasn't anyone around who knows and can enforce the rule.

I agree with you on it being the players fault for not confronting the issue, although I understand a little bit because this woman is a well-known bi**h. Again - this was an inter-club match in the Charlotte area and NOT USTA and the rules were a little less clear to all involved - although this clearly had to be a violation of some sort.
 

fe6250

Semi-Pro
Lesson learned:

Be careful what rules you bend. Also, if asked to bend a rule, always ask one key question: "Why?"

Honestly, I would have packed up my stuff and left, claiming the match as a retirement. Our matches are strictly timed, so I think I would have been awarded the match. Would have needed to document the length of the call, though.

Unfortunately these were not timed matches AND the ladies playing were unaware of the rules (their fault in my opinion) - so they didn't know if and what was being bent here.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
Welp it cost me 52 dollars a month and I play walk on for free so about 25 times a month and I always have a friend to play with so thats my price, and I'll save the one tip I get so who is the idiot getting taken? You don't get much better from playing matches, you get better from practicing

You get better from both actually, but that's another topic.

Regardless of what your opinion is on that, it's still stupid to think something is wrong with someone who takes advantage of an opportunity like that.

Also playing the same "friend" over and over again is worth about as much as "nothing". Playing random different people constantly is useful, but someone has to set that up unless you know tons of people.

But again, maybe you are talented, so you are never going to realize any of that.
 
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