i often times think it is easier for the server to tell than the returner. the server has already hit his shot and can now watch it as he gets into position. the returner on the other hand is in the middle of moving to the ball and trying to get a good swing on it... and he has to process whether or not it was in. pretty difficult to do as a returner, especially if playing against a big server. i hit plenty of balls back and then call them out, and people do it to me too. not a big deal at all imo.
What sort of gamesmanship do you engage in?
- Thread starter r2473
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i often times think it is easier for the server to tell than the returner. the server has already hit his shot and can now watch it as he gets into position. the returner on the other hand is in the middle of moving to the ball and trying to get a good swing on it... and he has to process whether or not it was in. pretty difficult to do as a returner, especially if playing against a big server. i hit plenty of balls back and then call them out, and people do it to me too. not a big deal at all imo.
Aldi Patron
Rookie
But if you look at other sports like you mentioned, even at the highest level not everybody is into gamesmanship. Some people just get on with it, others revert to gamesmanship. It has nothing to do with what sport it is.
I agree 100% with this and almost all the other post you have made in this thread. I like the way you break it down.
Those of you who get riled up would be a lot better off realizing that "gamesmanship" is, in most cases, a symptom of weakness and should put you into attack mode. Go in for the kill.
The only one that gets to me is the guy who makes 1 or more bad calls late in the set at crucial points, but that's cheating, not gamesmanship.
The only one that gets to me is the guy who makes 1 or more bad calls late in the set at crucial points, but that's cheating, not gamesmanship.
Crusher- the difference is that I see mental strength as a skill just like any other on the court. And I will analyze my opponents game for weakness whether its a lousy backhand, the inability to hit low balls, or being weak mentally. And there are so many people who need to be in exactly the right state of mind in order to play well, sure I will do what I can to take them out of that. Just as there are people who need to face a certain kind of of shot in order to do well- no way am I going to let them have that over and over.
Its small things that give me a tactical advantage. And one of my biggest strengths is that I don't lose my head on the court no matter what. I just don't see anything wrong with treating an opponent being a headcase as some sort of sacred cow that I shouldn't touch.
Its small things that give me a tactical advantage. And one of my biggest strengths is that I don't lose my head on the court no matter what. I just don't see anything wrong with treating an opponent being a headcase as some sort of sacred cow that I shouldn't touch.
nickarnold2000
Hall of Fame
Being mentally tough is as important as having all the shots IMO. I personally don't engage(that I know of) in gamesmenship but a thread like this is valuable to prepare oneself for what could happen out there. I prefer to beat my opponents with my shots and strategy not head games.
Crusher10s
Rookie
^^^^^precisely
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
WBF- thats because to you gamesmanship is by definition poor sportsmanship. I think there are a whole class of actions that are not at all poor sportsmanship but that do fall into the category of gamesmanship.
So once again, take the situation of making a point to chitchat with someone during changeovers when you are winning so they are thinking of the game more socially and less about strategy. To me this is clearly gamesmanship. I think also clearly there is nothing close to "being a poor sport" about this.
So once again, take the situation of making a point to chitchat with someone during changeovers when you are winning so they are thinking of the game more socially and less about strategy. To me this is clearly gamesmanship. I think also clearly there is nothing close to "being a poor sport" about this.
spot: If you chit chat because you simply are interested in chit chat with no ulterior motives, that is clearly not gamesmanship or being a poor sport. If you chit chat with the express intent of deceiving your opponent into thinking you are simply being friendly, in order to persuade them to lose focus on the match at hand... I have a very hard time not classifying that as gamesmanship and being a poor sport. I think of a good sport as someone who is playing because they enjoy the game, playing to do their best, with a desire to win, but with restrictions on certain actions (gamesmanship) that they would go to to win. I think of a poor sport as someone who will go to any length to win, including using ethically dubious methods to achieve victory. Maybe I just have poor definitions (or perhaps I'm not expressing my thoughts clearly)...
OrangePower
Legend
Nothing wrong with exploiting your opponents' mental weakness to your advantage... as long as you do so through your tennis game rather than by other behavior.
Examples:
Trying to pressure your opponent on break point, second serve by positioning for the return halfway between the baseline and service-line... fine
Trying to pressure your opponent on break point, second serve by muttering loud enough that he/she can hear "ok, double-fault coming, I know it!"... not
Trying to intimidate your opponent by going about your business on the court with a general air of confidence... fine
Trying to intimidate your opponent by celebrating visibly after every error they make... not
Trying to distract your opponent by throwing in some underarm serves once in a while... fine (actually quite amusing since it never works!)
Trying to distract your opponent by purposefully initiating conversation with them... not
Examples:
Trying to pressure your opponent on break point, second serve by positioning for the return halfway between the baseline and service-line... fine
Trying to pressure your opponent on break point, second serve by muttering loud enough that he/she can hear "ok, double-fault coming, I know it!"... not
Trying to intimidate your opponent by going about your business on the court with a general air of confidence... fine
Trying to intimidate your opponent by celebrating visibly after every error they make... not
Trying to distract your opponent by throwing in some underarm serves once in a while... fine (actually quite amusing since it never works!)
Trying to distract your opponent by purposefully initiating conversation with them... not
WBF- in some matches I chitchat, other matches I don't. Just depends on how the match goes. If I am getting my butt kicked then I don't chitchat since I want to spend that time strategizing. But if I am up then I virtually always chitchat just because I think it gives me an advantage. Just because something gives you an advantage doesn't make it unsportsmanlike.
The ironic thing is that I think that most people naturally do this. When they are winning they are more likely to try and chitchat to make it more social. They think they are being good sports by talking to their opponents in that situation. I think its pretty funny you are trying to say its unsportsmanlike of me to do the exact same behavior.
The ironic thing is that I think that most people naturally do this. When they are winning they are more likely to try and chitchat to make it more social. They think they are being good sports by talking to their opponents in that situation. I think its pretty funny you are trying to say its unsportsmanlike of me to do the exact same behavior.
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Orangepower- I'd say the next time you are in a match, go ahead and try randomly tossing in a underhand serve when you are up 40-0 on someone. OFTEN they will dump that ball into the net or long because they try to KILL it to make you pay for trying it. (at least with 4.0's and below, up above that this probably wouldn't work nearly as well) And its just DEFLATING for the person when they mess that up. Like I said- just give it a try sometime.
I don't think an underarm serve is gamesmanship. If you do it without your opponent being ready for the serve (quick serving it after a first serve), it is simply illegal... If not, your opponent should be ready, it's simply an unorthodox shot, just like a drop shot or off speed shot.
Smirking or giggling when they miss it would be gamesmanship.
Smirking or giggling when they miss it would be gamesmanship.
OrangePower
Legend
I've tried it... more often than not I make an error on the serve
In my case at least, the percentages are higher (of me getting it in, and my opponent subsequently making an error) just using my regular serve.
But I think it is a valid tactic if you have success with it.
Beernutz,
Either you don't have a very fast serve, or you haven't been playing long. If the server sees his serve as being long, but the returner thinks it is good, then it is NOT an obvious out ball. It is not obvious, because the returner is at the wrong angle to see long serves all the time, the ball is between his view and the line, hence it is very difficult to call out long balls, especially if they are fast serves.
When my first serves are working well, I would say that the returner is playing about 20% of my first serves even though I think they are out, because he is unable to call it out. That is not an obviously out ball in my book. Reasonable people can differ on line calls, thus just because it looks out to me, doesnt mean it is obviously out.
Either you don't have a very fast serve, or you haven't been playing long. If the server sees his serve as being long, but the returner thinks it is good, then it is NOT an obvious out ball. It is not obvious, because the returner is at the wrong angle to see long serves all the time, the ball is between his view and the line, hence it is very difficult to call out long balls, especially if they are fast serves.
When my first serves are working well, I would say that the returner is playing about 20% of my first serves even though I think they are out, because he is unable to call it out. That is not an obviously out ball in my book. Reasonable people can differ on line calls, thus just because it looks out to me, doesnt mean it is obviously out.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
For the record, I can almost guarantee I've been playing tennis longer than you and although I am a 3.5 I believe anyone I play against will tell you I have a pretty fast serve for a 3.5.
Regardless, I was not talking about the situation you describe. My premise was that obvious faults are those which are seen as out by both the server and receiver. Spot, the receiver, knew the serve in question was a fault and from the way he described the situation the server also knew the serve was a fault. To return balls that are clearly seen as faults by both the server and receiver, despite their speed, is gamesmanship imo. You are of course free to make your own interpretation of the rule since what is 'obvious' is not clearly defined in the rule.
If the serve is coming at you fast enough, you cannot process whether the ball is in or out until you are ready to strike the ball as the returner. At that point, it is usually too late to slow down your racket speed to tap the ball into the net, and many times all you can do is continue your stroke and call it out. I do not think that is gamemanship. In men's 4.0 tennis, you often have to put the ball in the court because the serve is coming so fast, even though the serve may be out.
No beernutz- I am describing the situation where I was facing a bigger server than you have ever likely faced at 3.5. An ex UVA football player who is 6-3. The serve was so big that I started swinging early on every first serve because that was the only chance I had to catch up to it. So when he made the request that I not play balls that I was calling long I declined, to me the alternative was WAITING to see if I thought the ball was going to be in and then swinging and then I would have not had any returns. Or else trying to guess off the strings whether it would be out or not, but then I would have ended up not playing some serves that went in if I guessed wrong. I will guarantee that you have been playing tennis longer than me, but I think that once you start facing big serves you will understand this more. I know you think you face big serves at 3.5 but I think that you will adjust your perspective on this as you start to play higher level players.
By the time I made contact I am sure that they were obviously long. But when you face a big serve like that then its all one reaction as soon as contact with the strings is made. Put it this way, I was starting my swing on balls that hit the net as well.
By the time I made contact I am sure that they were obviously long. But when you face a big serve like that then its all one reaction as soon as contact with the strings is made. Put it this way, I was starting my swing on balls that hit the net as well.
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Spot,
If the guy didnt want you to play balls on his first serve, you could have said, "sure, just slow down your first serve."
If the guy didnt want you to play balls on his first serve, you could have said, "sure, just slow down your first serve."
OrangePower
Legend
This point can be backed up with some simple arithmetic. A 120mph serve is traveling at 176 feet per second. Assuming a returner on the baseline and that the serve hits the service line (a distance of 18 feet), that means a tenth of a second between the bounce and the ball's arrival.
Simple reaction time for visual stimuli is two tenths of a second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time
That means you have to make the swing / no swing decision before the ball has even bounced (and in fact just as the ball is crossing the net).
Similarly, you are only able to process where you actually saw the ball bounce about a tenth of a second *after* you've made contact.
kylebarendrick
Professional
Arguing about how early you have to swing to hit a fast serve is one thing. A ball that hits the tape, bounces up, and lands 3 feet wide is quite another. Plenty of people almost go out of their way to return those to the server as well.
When it comes right down to it, people will do what they will do. You have to decide if you will let it bother you - your reaction is the one thing you have complete control over.
When it comes right down to it, people will do what they will do. You have to decide if you will let it bother you - your reaction is the one thing you have complete control over.
OrangePower
Legend
No argument there - some people are just douchebags. Fortunately they are in the minority.
Reminds me of another story... this one team we played against, they had a player who went out of his way to be confrontational - smacking out serves hard right at the opposing net man, contesting every call (even ones that were clear by 2 feet), taunting opponents, even doing a little victory dance after nailing one of our guys on an overhead. This was on the court adjacent to mine.
Unfortunately for Jerk, he chose the wrong person to do this against. The one guy on my team that was playing against him is like 6 foot 4 and 250 pounds. A real mild-mannered guy but physically imposing. So on one of the change overs, he whispers something into Jerk's ear. Jerk suddenly goes quiet and remains so for the rest of the match. We have no idea what was said - our guy isn't telling!
I learned after the fact that this is Jerk's standard behavior and that he thinks it gets him an edge - and maybe it does, but at the cost of such a bad reputation that no-one will willingly play with him in our area.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
LOL, I play guys better than me all the time. I have a 5.0 club pro friend who has hit serves to me as well as a D1 college player who is probably a 5.5.
Whatever. You 4.0 pros can play the game anyway you like.
In (decent) D3 matches, open tournaments, father son open tournaments (Typical quarter-finalists = top d3 through 500-1000 ranked pros, with fathers no less than strong 5.0, usually 5.5), futures qualifiers, high school tennis, and juniors tournaments returning hard and close first serves that were out is the NORM. I have never seen people consistently stop themselves on these balls. Ever. Occasionally yes. Regularly? Hell no.
nickarnold2000
Hall of Fame
Fay
Professional
I have the opposite problem where I play. My coach told me to my allowed time on changeovers to think, sit for a couple of seconds and drink water. I get a lot of flack about that. I have timed myself repeated in practice so I am positive I am not over time on that.
I actually had a lame woman say to me during a league match: "You can't take breaks and sit here and drink water--I have to leave here soon," when she was the one who came 10 minutes late to the match chatting with her coach on the next court.
I have the opposite problem here. SPEED SERVING is not discouraged. I can be walking to receive and a ball will be served with my back turned and they will insist upon taking the point even if I don't play it. Also, I had someone in a doubles match serve against us when someone was still in the court while crossing to the other court to play.
I generally see all of this gamesmanship (and lying about line calls) as insecurity. It is also meant to get in the opponent's head so I now don't look at my opponent when I serve and I don't look them in the eye when they serve. I just watch the ball.
I have had people repeated ask me questions when I am about to serve and now I ignore everything. I have found my ignoring them gets themselves in their own head, LOL. Problem solved.
I will tho the next rated match I am in call for an official if someone starts that garbage about calling in balls 'out'!
