Service rule change suggestion - toss ball is in play

[jrs]

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

 

[spot]

Personally I think that the benefit of being able to catch the ball on windy days far outweighs the downside. I haven't ever faced someone that has abused this rule and I haven't ever seen a match where it occurred.

It seems like if this really was an issue that needed to be dealt with then it would make far more sense to just limit it to catching the ball once.

 

[sureshs]

Cindy will be very disturbed

 

[OrangePower]

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

I actually agree. Since the toss is an important part of making a good serve, why should you get more than one attempt per serve? It's like if you mishit on the serve, should you get a do-over then also?

And for those thinking about windy conditions, what if your serve goes long because of the wind - should you get a do-over? Of course not, you need to adjust... so same thing with the toss.

Having said that... This would require a change to ITF Rules of Tennis rule 16 or rule 19. Good luck with that!

 

[SwankPeRFection]

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

Ask your friend to stop being a dick wad. Honestly, if I was to run into this kind of player, I would just walk off the court as it's not worth my time to deal with that BS. A rule change for this is unnecessary because sometimes players can make a mistake when they toss. A ball is in play once the player hits it with his/her racquet. Done, end of discussion. Your friend is an idiot noob.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

I'm guessing he doesn't even apologize when he catches it either.

 

[LeeD]

I've played with over 15 guys, and a couple of ladies, who don't seem to get their toss correct the first time. EVERY single one of them is apoligetic, say "sorry", and IF they continue to catch their tosses, their serves go completeley out of whack.
There's the possible cure right there.

 

[jrs]

Actually strong 4.5 and a coach

Ask your friend to stop being a dick wad. Honestly, if I was to run into this kind of player, I would just walk off the court as it's not worth my time to deal with that BS. A rule change for this is unnecessary because sometimes players can make a mistake when they toss. A ball is in play once the player hits it with his/her racquet. Done, end of discussion. Your friend is an idiot noob.

He's actually a very good player - he even teaches his students to catch the ball if the toss is not correct. He doesn't apologize because he feels it's legal what he's doing.
There's nothing I can say - as he's not breaking any rules!
He's not doing it in a malicious way - that's just the way he plays.

 

[JRstriker12]

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

To play devil's advocate - If you have a friend who has trouble hitting a backhand, should we also outlaw the backhand? Do we need to make the court shorter for those who foot fault?

Seems like a drastic rule change to make when it isn't an issue in general.

In 99% of the matches I play, this is not an issue. I don't see a lot of pros catching the ball too often either.

I know one guy who does this and we don't play to often for that reason. I'd much rather actually receive a serve than sit there and see watch toss faults.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Cindy will be very disturbed

Maybe it would finally get me to clean up my act.

I am much, much better than I used to be, when I was a Serial Mistosser. I had a pro who helped me (slow and smooth, with straight elbow), so it is mostly fixed. It still gets a little yippy when I am extremely nervous. I am far more likely to Mistoss on a second than a first serve, so if I am in the zone it isn't a problem. It's the combination of a bad first serve day coupled with match pressure that triggers a Mistoss.

In case you're wondering, Mistossing is bush league. Websters: "being of an inferior class or group of its kind : marked by a lack of sophistication or professionalism."

But perfectly legal!!

 

[jrs]

As most people are suggesting in this thread - it's only a minority of people who catch tosses - rest of us go ahead and hit it.

This is why I thought this is not a big change. Also, by removing the option of catching a toss - players who are after that perfect toss - will just concentrate on hitting the ball rather than worry about the toss.

As I mentioned in my opening post - my friend usually ends up hitting a bad toss after he passes up better ones.

 

[blakesq]

JRS, that is super irritating. However, if I am in a competitive match, and the server is doing what you describe, then after the third toss and catch, I will put my hand up, and take a break (5-10 seconds), and try to re-gain my concentration.

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

 

[JRstriker12]

As most people are suggesting in this thread - it's only a minority of people who catch tosses - rest of us go ahead and hit it.

This is why I thought this is not a big change. Also, by removing the option of catching a toss - players who are after that perfect toss - will just concentrate on hitting the ball rather than worry about the toss.

As I mentioned in my opening post - my friend usually ends up hitting a bad toss after he passes up better ones.

Have to disagree. Almost everyone catches a bad toss at some point. It might happen once or twice a match, maybe once every few matches, but not enough to be a waste of time and definitely not every toss.

I can live with a guy who catches his toss because a gust of wind picked up and apologizes.

Don't think your friend should ruin tennis for the rest of us because he's a habitual tosser.

Your rule will probably cause him to do balk tosses until he finally throws one up.

 

[v-verb]

He's a "tosser" all right

 

[Bdarb]

I learned if its a bad toss let it drop to the ground, catch it on the bounce. Seems like he'd just be doing it all the time but I know as soon as my toss is off i put my hand up stop my motion and apologize.

I teach my students never to hit a bad toss but i dont run into alot of issues with consistency like youre describing. Snocone method usually straightens them out. That would bug me and does seem cheap.

 

[OrangePower]

Have to disagree. Almost everyone catches a bad toss at some point. It might happen once or twice a match, maybe once every few matches, but not enough to be a waste of time and definitely not every toss.

I can live with a guy who catches his toss because a gust of wind picked up and apologizes.

Don't think your friend should ruin tennis for the rest of us because he's a habitual tosser.

Your rule will probably cause him to do balk tosses until he finally throws one up.

Why would such a rule "ruin tennis"? Hey, how about we get three faults instead of two - that will make serving easier for all of us... so is tennis ruined because you only get two faults?

Saying that almost everyone catches a bad toss at some point is like saying that almost everyone double-faults at some point... so what? Just because it's something that might happen to everyone at some point doesn't mean it's inappropriate to penalize it.

 

[JRstriker12]

Why would such a rule "ruin tennis"? Hey, how about we get three faults instead of two - that will make serving easier for all of us... so is tennis ruined because you only get two faults?

Saying that almost everyone catches a bad toss at some point is like saying that almost everyone double-faults at some point... so what? Just because it's something that might happen to everyone at some point doesn't mean it's inappropriate to penalize it.

I'm not talking about changing the game to make it easier, I'm talking about keeping the rules as is. Give me two fault serves, not two fault tosses to lose the point.

It ruins tennis because most of us work hard enough on our games to keep catching a toss to a minimum. Most of us can be good sports about when we catch a toss. Most of us don't abuse this rule. And I also think there are rare occasions where catching your toss is reasonable.

Now if toss abuse was severe problem, then yeah he may have a case for change. But why do we have to change the whole sport because one guy doesn't have serve fundamentals down?

Just makes no sense to change the rules because one guy, ONE guy the OP knows (not two guys, not three opponents, - he's talking about a single player) has problems with his serve and is a general jerk about it.

 

[OrangePower]

I'm not talking about changing the game to make it easier, I'm talking about keeping the rules as is. Give me two fault serves, not two fault tosses to lose the point.

It ruins tennis because most of us work hard enough on our games to keep catching a toss to a minimum. Most of us can be good sports about when we catch a toss. Most of us don't abuse this rule. And I also think there are rare occasions where catching your toss is reasonable.

Now if toss abuse was severe problem, then yeah he may have a case for change. But why do we have to change the whole sport because one guy doesn't have serve fundamentals down?

Just makes no sense to change the rules because one guy, ONE guy the OP knows (not two guys, not three opponents, - he's talking about a single player) has problems with his serve and is a general jerk about it.

Yeah I agree it's not a big deal, and not worth making a fuss over.

But honestly, if I were writing the rules of tennis from scratch, I would write the rule differently. Why not go for a simple, non-confusing set of rules? I like simplicity... then you don't have to do a lot of explaining, and add more rules and clarifications to the confusing rules you already have, etc. If you look at the USTA version of ITF Rules of Tennis, there is a specific clarification in there about the legality of catching the toss. To me that means it's not an intuitive rule.

Even the pros are confused about when the service 'officially' starts... it came up recently since they have started enforcing time in between points more strictly, and there was confusion about when the clock stops... is it when contact with the racquet is made on the serve, or when the ball is tossed? It's the former BTW, but again, if the rule as it stands is confusing and not intuitive to people (and pros), then maybe it's the wrong rule.

BTW I think the same thing about service let cords. I would just abolish them, and play them all (like they do in college now). So much simpler. Think of how many threads we've had here about who can call the service let, etc. Think about explaining to a newbie the reasoning behind why you get a let if the serve hit the cord and goes in, but not if it happens during the point itself. There is no good reason, just historic.

KISS

 

[Overdrive]

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

 

[Fusker]

Hello,

I would like to suggest the following service rule change. Once the ball leaves your hand on a serve toss - it's in play. Either hit it or if you catch it - it's a fault.

I have friend who tosses - catches, tosses - catches, toss (good toss) - catches...repeats - then tosses (bad toss) - obviously catches - no he hits it...So I am standing there guessing which toss he's going to hit.

So my solution you toss the ball - it's in play - you better hit it.

So no more bouncing of the ball before the toss? After all, it's leaving your hands.

When does the cutoff happen for when the ball can no longer leave your hand without being in play? When you pick it up off the ground? After you get to the base line? What if I drop the ball on the ground? Did I just commit tennis' version of knocking your golf ball off the tee?

It's an interesting idea, I just don't favor it. I don't catch many tosses, and in my experience, few of us rec players catch as many tosses as we should. It sounds like your experience is tainted by the behavior of a guy you play with frequently. I have only run into a few guys that do that, and yeah - it's really freaking annoying. But I wouldn't change the rules for something that is relevant to such a small percentage of players.

 

[NLBwell]

If you call all caught tosses faults there will be a lot more shoulder and back injuries from trying to hit bad tosses.

 

[roman40]

Great way to legally annoy your opponent, without any consequences... except, of course, for crappy reputation and your opponents calling your close shots out and doing other annoying things right back at you. Wouldn't be a fun game, unless your definition of fun is annoying the hell out of everyone. Haven't really seen this happen yet, but I am sure it's coming. I would probably react by going to the bathroom in the middle of their service game, at least twice :twisted:

 

[Cindysphinx]

We should just require that everyone serve underhand. No more Mistosses.

 

[gmatheis]

He's actually a very good player - he even teaches his students to catch the ball if the toss is not correct. He doesn't apologize because he feels it's legal what he's doing.
There's nothing I can say - as he's not breaking any rules!
He's not doing it in a malicious way - that's just the way he plays.

Actually if he's tossing it as much as you say he's probably violating the time allowed between points.

 

[RogueFLIP]

I always say "sorry" if I mistoss the ball, and I'm in Cindy's boat. Serial mistosser who is better, but it does act up when I'm nervous.

So I say BOO to your rule change suggestions sir.

BOO

 

[Fuji]

I never really understood the retoss. I can count how many times I've done it on one hand...

For me at least, I'd rather chase a bad toss then have to redo my entire service routine, since I'm a bit odd like that.

Ah well, to each their own. :razz:

-Fuji

 

[Larrysümmers]

i know what you mean, it gets pretty old when someone keeps tossing and catching, but its whatever.

 

[NLBwell]

I never really understood the retoss. I can count how many times I've done it on one hand...

For me at least, I'd rather chase a bad toss then have to redo my entire service routine, since I'm a bit odd like that.

Ah well, to each their own. :razz:

-Fuji

Some of my bad tosses land in the doubles alley, over 10 feet away from me. Sometimes I just let it roll to the side fence and get a new ball. If it's within 3 to 4 feet from my desired contact point, I'll usually try to hit it (even though I often shouldn't). If I have to step AND jump sideways to get to the ball, it is usually a fault.
Thing is, there is nothing really wrong with my tossing motion as a whole. The ball comes off my fingers in odd directions as I release it sometimes. I'll play a match or two with no problems and then in the middle of the next match, I'll put 10 out of 12 tosses completely out of reach in different directions. Then it will go away and the tosses will be fine.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I never really understood the retoss. I can count how many times I've done it on one hand...

For me at least, I'd rather chase a bad toss then have to redo my entire service routine, since I'm a bit odd like that.

Ah well, to each their own. :razz:

-Fuji

We have a term for you people who will never catch a bad toss:

Foot Faulters.

 

[Fuji]

We have a term for you people who will never catch a bad toss:

Foot Faulters.

Hahaha! Now that's something I'm definitely more guilty of then bad tosses. I know there have been a few times where I've ended up way deeper in the court then I should have off my serve.

That being said, I have never been called on it before. It's something I wish people would call however, because it gives very useful feedback.

-Fuji

 

[Fuji]

Some of my bad tosses land in the doubles alley, over 10 feet away from me. Sometimes I just let it roll to the side fence and get a new ball. If it's within 3 to 4 feet from my desired contact point, I'll usually try to hit it (even though I often shouldn't). If I have to step AND jump sideways to get to the ball, it is usually a fault.
Thing is, there is nothing really wrong with my tossing motion as a whole. The ball comes off my fingers in odd directions as I release it sometimes. I'll play a match or two with no problems and then in the middle of the next match, I'll put 10 out of 12 tosses completely out of reach in different directions. Then it will go away and the tosses will be fine.

That's strange! It's almost like tossing-yips. Does it maybe have something to do with the conditions you play in?

-Fuji

 

[spot]

We have a term for you people who will never catch a bad toss:

Foot Faulters.

Haha- absolutely true!

 

[JRstriker12]

He's a "tosser" all right

Pun intended

 

[jrs]

That's funny!

We have a term for you people who will never catch a bad toss:

Foot Faulters.

Very true.....we don't call foot faults either - "Hey, like you can see that from there!"
"Yeah, you stepped over the line so far - I can see it from here!"

 

[jrs]

Good question about the cutoff!

So no more bouncing of the ball before the toss? After all, it's leaving your hands.

When does the cutoff happen for when the ball can no longer leave your hand without being in play? When you pick it up off the ground? After you get to the base line? What if I drop the ball on the ground? Did I just commit tennis' version of knocking your golf ball off the tee?

It's an interesting idea, I just don't favor it. I don't catch many tosses, and in my experience, few of us rec players catch as many tosses as we should. It sounds like your experience is tainted by the behavior of a guy you play with frequently. I have only run into a few guys that do that, and yeah - it's really freaking annoying. But I wouldn't change the rules for something that is relevant to such a small percentage of players.

This cut off I would suggest would be - when you've finished all the bouncing and adjusted the various clothing issues. Look at your opponent (although my buddy doesn't - he's busy preparing to catch the toss!) and you are ready to toss - at this point - if you toss - better it hit - balls in play.

If you don't toss - then you can do whatever....till you come to toss portion.

As someone mentioned earlier - perhaps the new time limit rule might make this issue go away - but at the amateur level - I don't see how we can impose a time limit without an umpire.

Also as someone said - people who have problems with the toss might just switch to balking or not tossing at all. I remember being told there is a lady in the local league system - that has trouble releasing the ball - takes her seven or 8 tries before she relases it - god I hope she doesn't catch it.

 

[NLBwell]

That's strange! It's almost like tossing-yips. Does it maybe have something to do with the conditions you play in?

-Fuji

No, not at all that I can find. Could pop up in practice, in a match, indoors, in good weather, or bad weather. Maybe less likely on important points when I'm really concentrating. Started after coming back from injury about 3 years ago (and I've been playing for 50 years) and it had gotten better, then worse, then better. Hadn't happened at all this year until a couple weeks ago. Seems to be something I'm doing with my fingers or hand when I release the ball, but the amount and direction is inconsistent.
Kind of like electrical problems with a car.

 

[struggle]

Playing all "lets" (as in college) would be a much better rule change than worrying about mis-tossing.

IMO

not to change the subject....i have some wicked YIPS on the toss occasionally but usually just chase it and serve it unless it's just out of this world, so to speak.

 

[jrs]

Let rule impacts everyone

Playing all "lets" (as in college) would be a much better rule change than worrying about mis-tossing.

IMO

not to change the subject....i have some wicked YIPS on the toss occasionally but usually just chase it and serve it unless it's just out of this world, so to speak.

The let rule will impact everyone.
The toss rule will only impact a minority of people.
One thing I am realizing is some people it appears to be physical issue - I always assumed people were just waiting for the perfect toss - didn't realize there maybe health issues that could be preventing a proper toss.

 

[OrangePower]

The let rule will impact everyone.
The toss rule will only impact a minority of people.
One thing I am realizing is some people it appears to be physical issue - I always assumed people were just waiting for the perfect toss - didn't realize there maybe health issues that could be preventing a proper toss.

I'm in favor of both rule changes. Plays out lets cords on serve. Why should it be any different from during the point? Consider toss as part of serve. Why should you get a redo on a bad toss but not on a complete mishit serve? Keep things nice and simple and consistent for stupid people like me.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Kind of like electrical problems with a car.

I like to think of it as Toss Tourettes.

What we Mistossers needs is a bit of love, sympathy and understanding. Believe me, we don't like it either.

By the third toss during one of my episodes, I am no longer thinking what I should be thinking. I should be thinking, "OK, I'm going to serve up the middle and move in, racket in front, split step." Instead, I start thinking, "OK, bounce three times, elbow straight, nice and slow, left arm up, use your legs . . . *DOH!* Not again!"

 

[jrs]

Let cord issue

I'm in favor of both rule changes. Plays out lets cords on serve. Why should it be any different from during the point? Consider toss as part of serve. Why should you get a redo on a bad toss but not on a complete mishit serve? Keep things nice and simple and consistent for stupid people like me.

Actually, come to think of it there were some issues about let serves in our league. One person called a let another didn't - yeah ok, I good with that rule change. I'll support anything that stops the talking!

 

[jrs]

See I'm here to help

I like to think of it as Toss Tourettes.

What we Mistossers needs is a bit of love, sympathy and understanding. Believe me, we don't like it either.

By the third toss during one of my episodes, I am no longer thinking what I should be thinking. I should be thinking, "OK, I'm going to serve up the middle and move in, racket in front, split step." Instead, I start thinking, "OK, bounce three times, elbow straight, nice and slow, left arm up, use your legs . . . *DOH!* Not again!"

Cindy,
With my proposed rule change - you would only have to suffer through it twice - then you go the ad court and only suffer through it twice....see help is at hand!

After reading all these descriptions - I hope I don't catch it!

 

[Cindysphinx]

Cindy,
With my proposed rule change - you would only have to suffer through it twice - then you go the ad court and only suffer through it twice....see help is at hand!

After reading all these descriptions - I hope I don't catch it!

You're the best, looking out for me like that!!

 

[goran_ace]

I'd love for service lets to be played out in league play. Reason they put it in college is so returner's can't cheat and bail out on an ace/service winner by calling a let (of course if it's on the line they could still cheat and call it out).