rec foot faults

canadave · May 4, 2009

I had asked for a Recreational Club Tennis subforum to be created for questions like this one, but I guess it's unheeded. Anyway, here's my question:

I play at a local town tennis club. We have "Adult Fun Nights" every Monday and Thursday evening, when everyone can just come down and play some tennis for fun.

Obviously we're not ultra competitive on nights like this, but we do keep score, and of course the more competitive folks among us do try to win (although the idea is primarily to have fun socially, not win matches). You're not supposed to take anyone's head off at net, that sort of thing. Usually we rotate people into our doubles matches if there's too many people, as there were tonight; five of us played (we played three games apiece, then rotated the fifth person into the games). We weren't playing "sets" or a "match", but we were just kind of keeping game score as we went along, for fun.

So my doubles partner at one point in the "match" told me that he thought the other guy was foot faulting pretty badly. I didn't think anything of it, but later, as I faced the guy's serve, he did seem to be serving pretty well. I thought, Maybe this guy really is egregiously foot faulting.

So between points, I went over to my new doubles partner (we had rotated by that time) and privately asked if he'd keep an eye on the server to see if he was foot faulting.

Immediately my partner rolls his eyes and announces in a loud voice for everyone to hear: "Foot fault? Are you kidding? I'm not going to call foot faults, this is recreational tennis!"

Then, on the next serve, which wound up in the net, he yelled, "FOOT FAULT!" On the second serve, he again yelled "FOOT FAULT!" Clearly he was trying to make the point that he thought it was silly to call such a thing in rec tennis.

I was burning up inside, and was thisclose to telling him off (he's lucky I'm a nice guy). My point was, even if you disagree with me about calling foot faults, fine....but don't take a private conversation and make it into a public spectacle.

And, I still think that as long as you're keeping score, even in a social setting, it's not inappropriate to call foot faults. Obviously if someone's toe barely brushes the line, I'm not going to be there with a magnifying glass; but if someone's foot is completely over the line on the serve, I feel that needs to be called, even in social "fun" tennis.

Am I wrong?

Cindysphinx · May 4, 2009

I'm not going to call a foot fault in any sort of non-competitive or social setting.

I'm also not going to call it in a USTA match. In my experience, it is a road that leads no place I want to be.

I have enough problems with people thinking I am touching the net or letting balls bounce twice.

canadave · May 4, 2009

Really? Never? So if your opponent is consistently serving with his/her foot way over the line, you would never say anything?

If that's the case, then why have service lines at all? Why call serves out, while you're at it?

I don't know. It just seems to me that as long as you're playing by rules, you can't pick and choose which ones to enforce ("you" in the general sense, not you in particular.)

Like I said, I had more of an issue with the way he objected to me (by turning a private conversation with a doubles partner into a public issue) rather than the objection itself.

volleyman · May 4, 2009

"Adult Fun Night?"

I let it slide.

League or tournament, tennis? I call the egregious ones .. but, as per the rules, I always warn on the first one.

Actually, if I see the guy foot-faulting badly in warmup, I'll mention before the start of the match that foot-faults are callable.

"Just a reminder, we're allowed to call foot faults."

I don't even have to point out which person I'm talking about. The guilty parties, so far, have always changed their ways, and I've never actually had to call a foot fault during a match.

To me, this means that they know they are regularly breaking the rules, and just hoping that folks won't call them on it.

You know, cheating.

Cindysphinx · May 4, 2009

Well, clearly his handling of it was immature and childish.

And I understand what you say about enforcing the rules. It's just that . . .

I've been married a very long time. I think one reason for this is eventually I figured out that sometimes ya gotta just let stuff slide even when you're right, ya know?

Tennis is like marriage that way . . .

canadave · May 4, 2009

volleyman said:
Actually, if I see the guy foot-faulting badly in warmup, I'll mention before the start of the match that foot-faults are callable.

"Just a reminder, we're allowed to call foot faults."

See, and that's the only reason i wanted my "partner" to keep an eye out and let me know. If he had agreed to keep an eye out, and saw foot faults and told me, "yeah, your'e right, this guy's foot faulting pretty badly," then I would've said, "ok, let's let him know." I wouldn't immediately call "Foot fault!" or anything like that. I just didn't like the idea that I might be having all sorts of trouble returning serve because this server had a two-foot head start on it, and wanted to warn him of it if he was doing it.

hehe Cindy, also speaking as someone who's married (not necessarily a long time, but long enough)....I hear you, and you have a point

Fedace · May 4, 2009

Right No foot faults in amateur tennis..

canadave · May 4, 2009

Fedace said:
Right No foot faults in amateur tennis..

I have no idea if you're being serious, sarcastic, or what....

Fedace · May 4, 2009

It is not gentlemanly to call foot faults in amateur tennis. Only time is when the guy starts with the foot on the line or inside it. If he just accidently step on the line during the motion, you Never call that.---in amatuer tennis that is... in pros you do.

goober · May 4, 2009

Definitely would not call it for "adult fun night" or any social setting. There's zero gain in calling it and a lot of loss (as you found out ) if you call it in that setting. Keeping score does not mean social tennis= competitive tennis all of the sudden. You keep score to know when the games are over. Just go with flow and have a good time. Don't worry about line calls, foot faults and any other garbage that is normally associated with competitive tennis.

If it really bothers you, you can privately joke with the guy on the side when the match is over about the huge steps he taking across the line when he serves.

canadave · May 4, 2009

Fedace said:
It is not gentlemanly to call foot faults in amateur tennis. Only time is when the guy starts with the foot on the line or inside it. If he just accidently step on the line during the motion, you Never call that.---in amatuer tennis that is... in pros you do.

Even if the foot is completely over the line before he hits the ball, constantly, to the point where I can see space between his heel and the line? If so, then I stand corrected, and I have to say I'm surprised.

canadave · May 4, 2009

And just to reiterate...I'm not talking about calling foot faults. I'm talking about seeing if the guy is foot faulting egregiously, and if so, just letting him know so he stops doing it...not actually calling it and forcing him to fault on a point or anything like that.

kylebarendrick · May 4, 2009

I had an opponent mention after the first set that my partner was foot faulting. My reply? "So is yours".

I reminded my partner to stay behind the line, which I believe is the correct response to being told that you are foot faulting. You never need to worry about someone "gaming" you with foot fault calls if you keep your foot behind the line.

rasajadad · May 5, 2009

In my experience (40+ years of tennis) I estimate almost 50% of players foot fault on every serve. More do it occasionally.

To address the OP's issue- No. I do not call foot faults in a "Fun" match. You'd spend the whole time at the net arguing and making enemies. If you want to call foot faults be a line judge or a referee. If you want to play tennis- hit the ball back.

heninfan99 · May 5, 2009

I won't call it unless they are foot faulting & positioning themselves to get to net more quickly. Otherwise, I don't see serving with your foot on the line (or over it) as some great advantage.

Cindysphinx · May 5, 2009

Last October, my little 6.5 combo team went to the state championships. This was the very first time many of us had played with roving officials. One of the players who had been to Nationals previously told us about how you have to be careful about footfaulting because they will call it on you.

We had a practice a week before the event. I didn't play because we had an odd number of players. Instead, I watched.

You would not believe the footfaulting that was going on. This on a team where not one player will S&V. Some players actually stood right on the line when they stepped up to serve. Another stood behind the line, with her foot sideways. When she tossed the ball, she rotated her toes directly onto the line, every single time. Since no one can make drastic changes to their service motion in a week, we all resolved to start out a few inches behind the line.

Anyway, the roving officials were there. They nailed my partner several times for footfaulting. No warning, just "FOOT FAULT!!" Her problem was that she has this excellent service motion, but she was chasing tosses too far into the court and was actually footfaulting with her back foot.

As for me, I was struggling mightily with my serve toward the end of my match in the semi-finals. Nothing was working. I was doing multiple tosses, it was windy, I wasn't getting anything on my serves at all. And then one of the roving officials put the final nail in my coffin. He came up and said, "You're going to want to be careful about that front foot."

That was it. All I could think about was the big toe on my left foot. The doublefaults started happening at the worst times, which contributed to a pathetic little third set tiebreak loss that cost us a trip to the finals.

So yeah. A lot of people foot fault a lot. Including me.

canadave · May 5, 2009

OK...thanks everyone for your comments. Well, I have to admit this is all news to me. From what I'm reading, I see foot faulting is something that's just accepted. I guess I don't need to be so careful in making sure my own foot isn't over the line either...I've always been scrupulous about it my entire tennis life, figuring that it's a rule like any other rule, and the rules are there for a reason. I guess I can relax and just let my front foot go where it may. I'm happy I don't have to make sure my foot stays on the correct side of the line, but I must admit I'm more than a bit surprised.

Atown · May 5, 2009

canadave said:
OK...thanks everyone for your comments. Well, I have to admit this is all news to me. From what I'm reading, I see foot faulting is something that's just accepted. I guess I don't need to be so careful in making sure my own foot isn't over the line either...I've always been scrupulous about it my entire tennis life, figuring that it's a rule like any other rule, and the rules are there for a reason. I guess I can relax and just let my front foot go where it may. I'm happy I don't have to make sure my foot stays on the correct side of the line, but I must admit I'm more than a bit surprised.

Just because we may let it slide in others on occasion does not mean that one should be less vigilant as to ourselves. After all the Rules and Code are generally self-policing.

I let foot faults go in a rec/social setting but will mention it on a changeover in a USTA match. Also I look for footfaults at USTA practices and mention them to my teammates so the team's footfauting can be minimized.

Most importantly to me though, I do all I can to ensure that I don't foot fault (by starting far enough behing the baseline).

Fedace · May 5, 2009

kylebarendrick said:
I had an opponent mention after the first set that my partner was foot faulting. My reply? "So is yours".

I reminded my partner to stay behind the line, which I believe is the correct response to being told that you are foot faulting. You never need to worry about someone "gaming" you with foot fault calls if you keep your foot behind the line.

It is funny that guys never call the footfault if they can handle your serve just fine and has no problems. but if they see Aces or big serves that they Can't handle, they look for anything or something to call footfault or whatever....

origmarm · May 5, 2009

Personally I never call them in social play but I will in competitions/tournaments etc if they are flagrant. I seem to remember there is a group called PUT OFF or "Player Unwilling To Overlook Foot Faults" that our Mod Karl is a member of.

I've only twice been in a competitive situation when it's happened though. Both times it was very i.e. step over the line flagrant.

Fedace · May 5, 2009

origmarm said:
Personally I never call them in social play but I will in competitions/tournaments etc if they are flagrant. I seem to remember there is a group called PUT OFF or "Player Unwilling To Overlook Foot Faults" that our Mod Karl is a member of.

I've only twice been in a competitive situation when it's happened though. Both times it was very i.e. step over the line flagrant.

OK even then, if you are able to pound his serves back and you are ripping Return winners over and over,,, would you still call footfaults ??? Probably NOT...

drakulie · May 5, 2009

I agree with everyone who thinks footfaults shouldn't be called in "these types" of settings.

To add, I also feel out balls should be called in, and who cares if the ball bounces a few times before it is hit back over the net. :roll:

Fedace · May 5, 2009

drakulie said:
I agree with everyone who thinks footfaults shouldn't be called in "these types" of settings.

To add, I also feel out balls should be called in, and who cares if the ball bounces a few times before it is hit back over the net. :roll:

Yes i agree. In my last match, i was just calling all those serves that were few inches out,,IN. so my opponents won't feel so bad about their low percentage. I am just too nice sometimes.....

origmarm · May 5, 2009

Fedace said:
OK even then, if you are able to pound his serves back and you are ripping Return winners over and over,,, would you still call footfaults ??? Probably NOT...

I probably would in a competitive situation even if I was killing him. It's just not on in that setting.

As for Drak's comments it's all about the level of play. When I play with "serious" players i.e. we are both there to really play, then I'll call them on it. Most of these guys will actually be receptive. When I play with "weekend, sunny day players" usually I don't bother as I actually want to play rather than spend my time watching them serve. It's a question of degrees.

The odd one here is the "competitive weekender" who is overly competitive despite limited ability. They tend to get really annoyed at this type of thing and riled up. Depending on if they are bigger than me or not I find this amusing or scary

Fedace · May 5, 2009

^^^If you still call footfaults on a opponent you are Killing,,,,he will probably throw his racket down on the court and start crying like a baby....lol

origmarm · May 5, 2009

Fedace said:
^^^If you still call footfaults on a opponent you are Killing,,,,he will probably throw his racket down on the court and start crying like a baby....lol

I would hope he would be a little more mature than that

. Many posters on this board have stories of incredible behaviour from so called adults. I fortunately have yet to come across anything other than racquet breaking in 20yrs of tennis. I have clearly been lucky....

PimpMyGame · May 5, 2009

Never pulled anyone up about foot faulting but:

I have had words with people at my club who persistently don't make a decision if the ball is in or out and demand constant lets so I think I can see where the OP is coming from with regard to frustration.

Douggo · May 5, 2009

I think the OP may be missing the point that many are trying to make.
Should you be able to let somebody know that they're foot-faulting without there being any hard feelings? Yes.
In reality, does it ever work out that way? No.
Therefore, is it really worth bringing up? For most of us, the answer is "no".

canadave · May 5, 2009

Douggo said:
I think the OP may be missing the point that many are trying to make.
Should you be able to let somebody know that they're foot-faulting without there being any hard feelings? Yes.
In reality, does it ever work out that way? No.
Therefore, is it really worth bringing up? For most of us, the answer is "no".

No, I do understand that point you (and others) are getting at, believe me.

I just always figured that as long as we're playing by rules, then if someone is flagrantly ignoring a rule, repetitively, flagrantly, then it's not a bad thing to let them know. If I was playing with people who were absolutely just there to have a good time and we were just keeping score to know when to have a break and sip a coldie, then I'd certainly never mention a foot fault, no matter how bad it was.

But our rotating group last night was a pretty experienced group of five (even for "Fun Night")....the person who freaked out at me, the club president, the club pro (who was the one suspected of foot faulting, by the way!), myself, and another experienced player (who sits on the executive board with me). We all know each other very well and have played many doubles matches together, on a semi-competitive basis. EVEN STILL, if I'd seen a guy's foot just over the line, I'd never bring it up. But if someone's wayyyyy over the line....like, two foot distance over, constantly....with a hard serve.....in that situation, with those players? Hmmm. I know all about not taking the game too seriously, but......I'm still thinking I'd have to mention it. NOT CALL IT--but mention it.

session404 · May 5, 2009

Unless he was a friend of mine, I wouldn't say anything at all. And I would only tell my friend after the match, or during a changeover. Just not worth the hassle and potential misunderstanding.

goober · May 5, 2009

canadave said:
No, I do understand that point you (and others) are getting at, believe me.

I just always figured that as long as we're playing by rules, then if someone is flagrantly ignoring a rule, repetitively, flagrantly, then it's not a bad thing to let them know. If I was playing with people who were absolutely just there to have a good time and we were just keeping score to know when to have a break and sip a coldie, then I'd certainly never mention a foot fault, no matter how bad it was.

But our rotating group last night was a pretty experienced group of five (even for "Fun Night")....the person who freaked out at me, the club president, the club pro (who was the one suspected of foot faulting, by the way!), myself, and another experienced player (who sits on the executive board with me). We all know each other very well and have played many doubles matches together, on a semi-competitive basis. EVEN STILL, if I'd seen a guy's foot just over the line, I'd never bring it up. But if someone's wayyyyy over the line....like, two foot distance over, constantly....with a hard serve.....in that situation, with those players? Hmmm. I know all about not taking the game too seriously, but......I'm still thinking I'd have to mention it. NOT CALL IT--but mention it.

This is a little different from what you originally described. It sounds more competitive than "adult fun night". But basically it is your group and they have pretty much let you know how they feel about it. Looking for affirmation from the TW board is not going to change how your group views it when they play

canadave · May 5, 2009

goober said:
This is a little different from what you originally described. It sounds more competitive than "adult fun night". But basically it is your group and they have pretty much let you know how they feel about it. Looking for affirmation from the TW board is not going to change how your group views it when they play

Well, I wouldn't say I'm looking for affirmation...just trying to get a sense of what's right, as my experience in this sort of thing is limited.

Yes, I should have been more clear. Officially it is "Fun Night". The idea is to provide a set time when everyone can come play tennis together, rather than having people have to phone each other to arrange matches. Since it's a club, the tennis is supposed to be social--it's not a tournament by any means.

The "nature" of the tennis depends on who's playing. If I wind up playing against someone who I know enjoys a competitive match, we'll play a pretty competitive match. If I'm playing with someone's Aunt Tillie, then we may keep score, but that's about it.

goober · May 5, 2009

canadave said:
Well, I wouldn't say I'm looking for affirmation...just trying to get a sense of what's right, as my experience in this sort of thing is limited.

.

What is "right" in social settings is what the group consensus dictates. I have been in groups where drinking between points and acting like a bunch of drunken yahoos by the end of the night was ok. I have been in groups where every ball close line is called out, but everybody does it so it is "okay". I have been in groups where going right at someone is ok on a overhead, but in other groups if you do this it is a cardinal sin. Basically go with the flow. Trying to change their set ways is not going to work in most cases without causing a lot of hard feelings (which obviously is not worth it in a social setting).

Datacipher · May 8, 2009

canadave said:
So my doubles partner at one point in the "match" told me that he thought the other guy was foot faulting pretty badly. I didn't think anything of it, but later, as I faced the guy's serve, he did seem to be serving pretty well. I thought, Maybe this guy really is egregiously foot faulting.

So between points, I went over to my new doubles partner (we had rotated by that time) and privately asked if he'd keep an eye on the server to see if he was foot faulting.

Immediately my partner rolls his eyes and announces in a loud voice for everyone to hear: "Foot fault? Are you kidding? I'm not going to call foot faults, this is recreational tennis!"

EVEN STILL, if I'd seen a guy's foot just over the line, I'd never bring it up. But if someone's wayyyyy over the line....like, two foot distance over, constantly....with a hard serve.....in that situation, with those players? Hmmm. I know all about not taking the game too seriously, but......I'm still thinking I'd have to mention it. NOT CALL IT--but mention it.

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