Real People Can't Serve

I went to Legg Mason last night. After the Roddick match, they had a fun little contest. They had various USTA league players, men and women, 3.5 and 4.0. Each person got three serves. The person with the fastest serve (measured by radar) that landed in would win $250 (I assume one prize for each gender and level). Roddick stood nearby and provided, um, color commentary.

Here's what happened, as best as I can remember. (If anyone else was there, do chime in to correct anything I get wrong).

First up: The 3.5 men. First guy was older and very heavy. I think he banged 88 or so on his serves, with the last two landing in. I think the next guy did something similar. Neither had especially good form, pretty typical stuff. All right. So the serves I see in 7.0 mixed are probably about 85 mph.

Then the 3.5 women stepped up. The first one was slender and small and had a total frying pan grip, so pronounced that I could see it from the top level of the stadium. No racket drop, knee bend, shoulder turn. Nothing But Arm. She hit 58 mph, with only one serve going in and the others going long. The other 3.5 woman was much older, and she hit the mid-70s, I believe. Now, I think my service motion is a lot better than these ladies, so maybe that means I am in the 80s? I dunno.

Then the real fun began, with the 4.0 men. First guy up is a younger guy. He rears back and totally blasts his first attempt. And by "blast," I mean painted the baseline. 99 mph. Second attempt was faster, at 100 mph, this one landing a few feet inside the baseline. At this point, the guy knows he has to get this next serve or he will be eliminated. This calls for some spin, some margin for safety, right? No sirreee Bob. He rears back and crushes another one near the baseline. No soup for you.

At this point, Andy told the other 4.0 guy that he would take one of his three serves. Andy steps up, and we are expecting he is going to fire one in the 130s. Nope, he served the most pathetic, 1.0-level, frying pan, moonball push serve you ever saw, which was too lame for the radar even to register a speed. Still it landed in.

Now it was time for the second 4.0 guy to serve. All he has to do is put *any* serve into the box and he is the winner. Any sane person would just kick one in, and then have some fun with the last two serves, right? Apparently, this fellow had just finished soaking in a frothy bath of testosterone, because he just couldn't bring himself to play it safe. Three 100 mph serves, none nowhere near the service line.

Can't remember the 4.0 women, sorry. I was laughing too hard at the 4.0 guys who cannot, no matter how many people are watching and how much is on the line, take something off of their serves.

As for me, I was surprised to see how many mph you can rack up with abysmal form. I mean, the second serve kickers a lot of the pros were hitting were registering into the 80s and 90s (although their flat serves were between the mid 110s-130s). So just the physics involved with the swing, racket and ball will get you up to 60 mph, apparently, even if you disregard all principles of technique. Getting a serve in while hitting 100 mph must be awfully hard.

Now. And if any of you reading this just happened to be one of the contestants . . .
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Go work on your serve. Right now!

^^^ You know, you would think 4.0 men in a public demonstration like that might actually be a little handicapped mentally, but my experience in playing 4.0 men is they serve like this almost all the time. I mean, they do somehow manage to find the box more often than not on the 2nd serve, but their 1st serve percentages are pathetic, particularly when a game is on the line...

hmm are these USTA players all from the mighty Mid-Atlantic region? Amusing story, but pretty embarrassing for those involved. Were these people selected randomly I presume?

Cindy, did you see this account from the other serving speed thread?

magmasilk said:

an interesting point of reference ...

at legg mason, after the roddick-querry match they had a speed serving competition on the center court with some VA USTA players (they won some kind of entry competiton). I found this interesting because they used the exact same speed gun that was used for the match. I always wonder how the setup of the speed cages and personal speed guns affects the results so this is nice controlled situation to compare pros and ams.

3.5 overweight taller guy in 40's pancaked the ball and got 88
3.5ish (not specifically said) ... smaller/shorter, late 20's with a puredrive hit 99
lanky taller kid in early 20's, with pretty good form hit 115

older women with no form hit 66
4.0 woman i forget exactly but something like 70-80

overall my conclusion bases of the match results (query/hewitt second serve in the 90's) and the serving competition is that it is not all too hard to get 100. In the course or usta 3.5 dbls (1st line so plenty of these players play up/ get bumped up) there a number of players that hit over 100 and most good flat serves in the 90's.

p.s. the difference from 115 and 130 qualitatively seems greater than 15 mph

p.p.s those 60ish mph serves i think bounced twice before the baseline

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I don't think you can say a lot about someone's serving ability during a contest like this. I would imagine it would be VERY difficult to focus mentally on your serve. Just being in the cage, I couldn't focus and was just going for the fastest speed, and did not feel like I hit the ball real clean.

Two years ago on the clay courts at the Legg Mason tourney, they had some contest where you hit as many targets as you can in like 90 seconds with forehands and backhands. I was very tense trying to perform well and I swear like 80% of my shots did not even land in bounds! Your focus goes out the window when you try to show off your skills in these contests.

I found this interesting because they used the exact same speed gun that was used for the match. I always wonder how the setup of the speed cages and personal speed guns affects the results so this is nice controlled situation to compare pros and ams. They didn't always state the NTRP or i didn't hear it but this is what i recall ...

men
3.5 overweight taller guy in 40's pancaked the ball and got 88
smaller/shorter, late 20's with a puredrive hit 99
lanky taller kid in early 20's, with pretty good form hit 115

women
older women with no form hit around 60ish (high 66)
4.0 woman i forget exactly but something like 70-80

overall my conclusion bases of the match results (query/hewitt second serve in the 90's) and the serving competition is that it is not all too hard to get 100. In the course or usta 3.5 dbls (1st line so plenty of these players play up/ get bumped up) there a number of players that hit over 100 and most good flat serves in the 90's.

raiden031 said:

Two years ago on the clay courts at the Legg Mason tourney, they had some contest where you hit as many targets as you can in like 90 seconds

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in 90 seconds, rafa nadal would only be able to get at most 3 targets (due to the time he would take when serving)

Mick said:

in 90 seconds, rafa nadal would only be able to get at most 3 targets (due to the time he would take when serving)

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they feed balls to your groundstrokes.

Once again, DEPENDS !!
Big strong QB from the NFL, playing at maybe 2.5 level right now, would easily serve 120 + mph after 3 weeks of practice. And get some in.
As a C player, maybe two years into tennis, I got 4 out of 7 inside the box and all 4 were over 125, 3 over 128, and the misses were less than 3' on the average.
And there are lots of 4.0 players who would have trouble cracking 90 even given 50 serves and counting the "out" balls.
I'm claiming 3.5 right now for myself.

Cindysphinx said:

Now it was time for the second 4.0 guy to serve. All he has to do is put *any* serve into the box and he is the winner. Any sane person would just kick one in, and then have some fun with the last two serves, right? Apparently, this fellow had just finished soaking in a frothy bath of testosterone, because he just couldn't bring himself to play it safe. Three 100 mph serves, none nowhere near the service line.

Now. And if any of you reading this just happened to be one of the contestants . . .
.

Go work on your serve. Right now!

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Cindy, Cindy, Cindy,

I'll have you know it's far more important to hit hard than it is to hit in. Let's face it, if you hit the ball in, your opponent is just going to hit it back because you had to take something off and you'll lose the point anyway 'cause the groundstrokes are just as bad as the serve stroke. So, if you're going to go down anyway, you might as well do it going down in flames. That's my point of view anyway. :mrgreen:

(Of course, this is spoken by one who can only get a serve in once in awhile by hitting hard because that's all I've ever practiced )

magmasilk said:

I found this interesting because they used the exact same speed gun that was used for the match. I always wonder how the setup of the speed cages and personal speed guns affects the results so this is nice controlled situation to compare pros and ams. They didn't always state the NTRP or i didn't hear it but this is what i recall ...

men
3.5 overweight taller guy in 40's pancaked the ball and got 88
smaller/shorter, late 20's with a puredrive hit 99
lanky taller kid in early 20's, with pretty good form hit 115

women
older women with no form hit around 60ish (high 66)
4.0 woman i forget exactly but something like 70-80

overall my conclusion bases of the match results (query/hewitt second serve in the 90's) and the serving competition is that it is not all too hard to get 100. In the course or usta 3.5 dbls (1st line so plenty of these players play up/ get bumped up) there a number of players that hit over 100 and most good flat serves in the 90's.

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Yes, it was all happening so fast that it was hard to hear the USTA level and see the gun and then remember it all. It sounds like certain of these people made impressions on both of us, for better or worse! This was the first time I had ever seen regular people serving in a proper speed gun situation.

Yeah, I think you are right about the 4.0 woman (the taller one who wore beige clothing). She had a not-so-good service motion, but I was surprised she didn't do substantially better than the 3.5 pancake lady given her higher rating and extra height.

Raiden, I agree that little contests like this aren't the best gauge of how well someone serves, etc. But it was clear that some of the people had horrible form, and some had good form. Those with poor form aren't going to do any better on match point in a league match!

Is this really how 4.0s serve these days? If so, wow---just wow. Tennis really is in trouble

The world is full of 4.0 males with huge egos and huge serves (most of which land out), and flawed technique on all strokes. They live for that 1 out of 10 serves that lands in by chance.

I was one of the guys serving at the contest and I can speak for everyone that we were all extremely nervous. Prior to the finals in the stadium, we had playoffs to narrow it down to two from each category on the clay courts. I consistently served in the 100s with 110 as my fastest (and in) while the guy competing in the finals with me couldn't break 95. By the way, the two categories were 3.5 and under and 4.0 and above. Both guys in the 4.0 and above category hit 118 in the playoffs to advance to the finals. The tall lengthy guy was at least a 5.0 who played at Radford. The other guy was a 4.5.

Walking out on the court I was cool and calm but also excited. Walking up to the baseline to serve, I was nervous as hell with my heart beating out of my chest. The first guy hit his first two serves way out past the baseline and making his last serve of 88 MPH. Going up next, I figured I could just spin it in and win it. First serve, missed. Next serve, I said to myself "Okay, I have to get this one in." Dumped it into the net. Third serve, I felt the pressure. It was completely silent. I hit it right in the corner at 99 MPH. Honestly I had no idea how I got it in. Being out there, all my technique was thrown out the window.

So yes, maybe we all didn't look too good serving out there, but it's a far different story going out on stadium court in front of thousands of people serving than it is playing a USTA match. Plus we didn't even get to warm up before we went out there.

Here's a picture of me on the court serving. You can see Wayne Bryan and Andy Roddick in the background. That is not the actual racquet I use. I currently use the Babolat Pure Storm Ltd GT. Just figured I would get more pop from my serve with the Pure Drive GT+.

Andrew Y said:

I was one of the guys serving at the contest and I can speak for everyone that we were all extremely nervous. Prior to the finals in the stadium, we had playoffs to narrow it down to two from each category on the clay courts. I consistently served in the 100s with 110 as my fastest (and in) while the guy competing in the finals with me couldn't break 95. By the way, the two categories were 3.5 and under and 4.0 and above. Both guys in the 4.0 and above category hit 118 in the playoffs to advance to the finals. The tall lengthy guy was at least a 5.0 who played at Radford. The other guy was a 4.5.

Walking out on the court I was cool and calm but also excited. Walking up to the baseline to serve, I was nervous as hell with my heart beating out of my chest. The first guy hit his first two serves way out past the baseline and making his last serve of 88 MPH. Going up next, I figured I could just spin it in and win it. First serve, missed. Next serve, I said to myself "Okay, I have to get this one in." Dumped it into the net. Third serve, I felt the pressure. It was completely silent. I hit it right in the corner at 99 MPH. Honestly I had no idea how I got it in. Being out there, all my technique was thrown out the window.

So yes, maybe we all didn't look too good serving out there, but it's a far different story going out on stadium court in front of thousands of people serving than it is playing a USTA match. Plus we didn't even get to warm up before we went out there.

Here's a picture of me on the court serving. You can see Wayne Bryan and Andy Roddick in the background. That is not the actual racquet I use. I currently use the Babolat Pure Storm Ltd GT. Just figured I would get more pop from my serve with the Pure Drive GT+.

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Wow this is completely different from the way the OP portrayed the event.
You guys sound pretty good and you did get in serves at pretty decent pace. I had the impression nobody got anything in and everybody had bad form. Your form there (granted it is a static image) actually looks pretty decent.

Andrew Y said:

....So yes, maybe we all didn't look too good serving out there, but it's a far different story going out on stadium court in front of thousands of people serving than it is playing a USTA match. Plus we didn't even get to warm up before we went out there.
...

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I can only imagine....recently I attended a working clinic with the Boston Lobsters and I can tell you when I had to serve (initially) I too was nervous. My natural instinct was to back way off on the serve speed and get it in the box...after a few serves I managed to relax and hit it normal but I completely understand how you felt.

Good work on getting that 3rd serve in!

Andrew Y said:

I was one of the guys serving at the contest and I can speak for everyone that we were all extremely nervous. Prior to the finals in the stadium, we had playoffs to narrow it down to two from each category on the clay courts. I consistently served in the 100s with 110 as my fastest (and in) while the guy competing in the finals with me couldn't break 95. By the way, the two categories were 3.5 and under and 4.0 and above. Both guys in the 4.0 and above category hit 118 in the playoffs to advance to the finals. The tall lengthy guy was at least a 5.0 who played at Radford. The other guy was a 4.5.

Walking out on the court I was cool and calm but also excited. Walking up to the baseline to serve, I was nervous as hell with my heart beating out of my chest. The first guy hit his first two serves way out past the baseline and making his last serve of 88 MPH. Going up next, I figured I could just spin it in and win it. First serve, missed. Next serve, I said to myself "Okay, I have to get this one in." Dumped it into the net. Third serve, I felt the pressure. It was completely silent. I hit it right in the corner at 99 MPH. Honestly I had no idea how I got it in. Being out there, all my technique was thrown out the window.

So yes, maybe we all didn't look too good serving out there, but it's a far different story going out on stadium court in front of thousands of people serving than it is playing a USTA match. Plus we didn't even get to warm up before we went out there.

Here's a picture of me on the court serving. You can see Wayne Bryan and Andy Roddick in the background. That is not the actual racquet I use. I currently use the Babolat Pure Storm Ltd GT. Just figured I would get more pop from my serve with the Pure Drive GT+.

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My question is...did you sign on to this forum to defend yourself???

The_Question said:

My question is...did you sign on to this forum to defend yourself???

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Obviously not- look at his join date: Oct 2008

Ha!! I **knew** someone from the contest would read this thread. I just knew it!!

Andrew, I have to say that I don't recognize you. Which guy were you, the second 3.5 guy? I must have you confused with another guy, as the guy I'm thinking of didn't break 90. It sounds like Magmasilk got a better look at you, as I don't remember any of the guys getting 99 on a serve that went in. Obviously, I missed it.

Anyway, it was very unclear to me in the cheap seats exactly what was going on. I couldn't figure out why these particular people had been chosen. It makes a bit more sense now.

Your description of the nerves ("it was completely silent") is interesting too. It sure didn't seem silent to me. It seemed crazy loud, which was one reason why it was so hard to figure out who these people were and why they had been chosen.

What are you going to do with your winnings?

Another quick thing I remembered . . .

There were eight people serving, with three serves each. That is 24 tosses for 24 serves. Andrew suggested they were nervous and didn't serve their best.

Evidence of this is that not one person caught a toss.

Think about it. You are tight and nervous. Something is riding on how well you make contact. You are not warmed up. Wouldn't you expect some errant tosses? That probably dragged down both the accuracy and the speed of many of the serves.

Maybe the lesson for all of us is if you are serving in a situation that matters a lot, toss the ball as many times as necessary to hit a good one.

Andrew Y said:

Plus we didn't even get to warm up before we went out there.

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No warm-up? Ouch. My shoulder hurts just thinking about doing that!

goober said:

Wow this is completely different from the way the OP portrayed the event.
You guys sound pretty good and you did get in serves at pretty decent pace. I had the impression nobody got anything in and everybody had bad form. Your form there (granted it is a static image) actually looks pretty decent.

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... when you watch 4-5 hours of pro serves any amateur serve will look like it's got awkward hitches. overall i thought (except for the 1st 3.5 guy) the guys looked good. Obviously the two 4.0+ can produce nice serves. and i think wayne bryan might have been wrong about just getting it in to win and the second guy that missed all his serves had to actually beat 115 to win so he had to go for it. The first 4.0+ guy hit 2 in @ ~115. Honestly, the rules were so poorly explained that i pretty sure no one in the crowd, wanye, or andy knew what was going on.

The gals i think didn't represent the high end of their level.

I am 55. I practice my serve every other day. On average, I practice serve at minimum, 300 balls a week. Two years ago, I was hitting close to 500 a week.

I would love the opportunity those folks had.

magmasilk said:

The gals i think didn't represent the high end of their level.

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No, they didn't. Which caused me to think maybe the contestants had been drawn from a hat.

But the women helped us learn something: No matter how poor your form is, the strings, ball and racket mean *everybody* is hitting at least 66 mph on their serves.

It's nice to have a baseline, I guess.

And I don't think either 4.0+ guy got a serve in. Remember, Andy was calling them in or out, but he was just joking around and may have confused matters further.

Andy should have been calling the first guy for a footfault on at least one of his serves!

Cindy -- who would also love to have such an opportunity but who wouldn't get a high number because she rarely tries to serve hard and flat, but who thinks she would get one in

I guess you had to be there.

Andrew Y said:

I was one of the guys serving at the contest and I can speak for everyone that we were all extremely nervous. Prior to the finals in the stadium, we had playoffs to narrow it down to two from each category on the clay courts. I consistently served in the 100s with 110 as my fastest (and in) while the guy competing in the finals with me couldn't break 95. By the way, the two categories were 3.5 and under and 4.0 and above. Both guys in the 4.0 and above category hit 118 in the playoffs to advance to the finals. The tall lengthy guy was at least a 5.0 who played at Radford. The other guy was a 4.5.
]

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Andrew. Good for you. Don't pay attention to the TW knobs who are "laughing". They are complete hacks who would have missed the ball completely before falling to the ground in agony after hitting their own shins.....SERIOUSLY. It's always the sorriest players who don't understand pressure. I've played in serious competition, I've played in front of spectators. I know what real nerves are like. Walking onto a strange court, with no warm-up, a big crowd, all expecting to see you hit a "big" serve....the VAST majority of people would not serve all that well. You are likely a better server than 90% of the people here! Hope you look back on the experience positively!

Cindysphinx said:

Maybe the lesson for all of us is if you are serving in a situation that matters a lot, toss the ball as many times as necessary to hit a good one.

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Thanks for the lesson. Yes, I'm sure repeatedly tossing the ball wouldn't have inspired even more laughter from pedantic, 3.0 ladies in the crowd, who were already "laughing so hard". I'd bet 100$ that in the same situation, you'd shank one into the serve box on your side of the net. So grow up a bit.

Yeah, I think Cindysphinx wasn't in the best spot to judge what was going on in the nosebleed section.

I was the second 3.5 guy. I was actually surprised at how well I tossed the ball. if you saw the first guy, he was falling three feet to the ad side trying to hit his serve. The 4.5/5.0 guys were complaining about the lighting but I didn't find it troubling my serve. But yeah, we all should have taken our time.

The contest had a bunch of different sites in VA for people to compete in. They were mainly held at districts for USTA so anyone could have entered into it. But to all those 3.5 guys with big serves, don't enter it next year so I can win again next year, assuming I don't get bumped up.

The way it was set up was that everyone gets three serves. It only counts if you get the serve in. So with the guys in 4.0 and above, neither of them got a serve in but they split the money between them.

I think I'm gonna use the money to pay for all the gas I used to drive to Legg Mason. Been going everyday because I got some tickets for the K-Swiss suite. So everyone buy some K-Swis clothing and shoes.

Andrew Y said:

I was the second 3.5 guy. I was actually surprised at how well I tossed the ball. if you saw the first guy, he was falling three feet to the ad side trying to hit his serve. The 4.5/5.0 guys were complaining about the lighting but I didn't find it troubling my serve. But yeah, we all should have taken our time.

The contest had a bunch of different sites in VA for people to compete in. They were mainly held at districts for USTA so anyone could have entered into it. But to all those 3.5 guys with big serves, don't enter it next year so I can win again next year, assuming I don't get bumped up.

The way it was set up was that everyone gets three serves. It only counts if you get the serve in. So with the guys in 4.0 and above, neither of them got a serve in but they split the money between them.

I think I'm gonna use the money to pay for all the gas I used to drive to Legg Mason. Been going everyday because I got some tickets for the K-Swiss suite. So everyone buy some K-Swis clothing and shoes.

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Oh my goodness, that's right!!! I remember them having the contest at districts! One of my friends tied for first for the 3.5 ladies, but I'm not sure if she did it or not! I didn't do it, because I pretty much knew I had no hope. I didn't realize that the winners got to serve at LM, too, though! How cool!

But I took a picture of the contest board before we left districts...gotta go dig it up!

And, btw, great picture!

Cindy and/or Magma, did the first 3.5 woman (the slender one) have short, short hair???

I found my picture of the serve board from VA districts, but won't post it unless I can find a way to block out the names (Andrew, you're on it).

The top 3.5 woman speed was 84 mph when I took the picture though, and Andrew's was 108mph at districts. It was a different type of set up and radar gun though...wonder if that makes a difference?

Andrew Y said:

I was one of the guys serving at the contest and I can speak for everyone that we were all extremely nervous. Prior to the finals in the stadium, we had playoffs to narrow it down to two from each category on the clay courts. I consistently served in the 100s with 110 as my fastest (and in) while the guy competing in the finals with me couldn't break 95. By the way, the two categories were 3.5 and under and 4.0 and above. Both guys in the 4.0 and above category hit 118 in the playoffs to advance to the finals. The tall lengthy guy was at least a 5.0 who played at Radford. The other guy was a 4.5.

Walking out on the court I was cool and calm but also excited. Walking up to the baseline to serve, I was nervous as hell with my heart beating out of my chest. The first guy hit his first two serves way out past the baseline and making his last serve of 88 MPH. Going up next, I figured I could just spin it in and win it. First serve, missed. Next serve, I said to myself "Okay, I have to get this one in." Dumped it into the net. Third serve, I felt the pressure. It was completely silent. I hit it right in the corner at 99 MPH. Honestly I had no idea how I got it in. Being out there, all my technique was thrown out the window.

So yes, maybe we all didn't look too good serving out there, but it's a far different story going out on stadium court in front of thousands of people serving than it is playing a USTA match. Plus we didn't even get to warm up before we went out there.

Here's a picture of me on the court serving. You can see Wayne Bryan and Andy Roddick in the background. That is not the actual racquet I use. I currently use the Babolat Pure Storm Ltd GT. Just figured I would get more pop from my serve with the Pure Drive GT+.

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Completely understandable regarding the nervousness. I know several every good club players that have completely fallen apart playing a USTA district playoff match.
It is easy to see that stepping into a stadium in front of thousands of people with one of the top five players in the planet a few feet away watching you could not even come close. It is easy to to critique when you are a spectator and claim you could do better. Whenever I watch a league match I know I could have made every shot that the players miss. I would have never have lost any match that I watched if I had been playing.

Datacipher said:

Thanks for the lesson. Yes, I'm sure repeatedly tossing the ball wouldn't have inspired even more laughter from pedantic, 3.0 ladies in the crowd, who were already "laughing so hard". I'd bet 100$ that in the same situation, you'd shank one into the serve box on your side of the net. So grow up a bit.

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No need to pick on Cindy. The whole thing was done to amuse the crowd, and it obviously worked.

Yeah, I'm not gonna take the bait and get into a scrap with Datacipher. The whole thing *was* supposed to be funny. The first thing the Bryan Brothers' dad told the crowd was that the prize money for breaking Roddick's record of 139 would be $1000. Ha, ha, ha.

Andrew, were you the guy that Roddick heckled? I think I remember someone missing the first two serves, and then Roddick started chanting, "Choke, choke, choke!" And everyone was laughing. But now I can't remember if the guy got the serve in or not.

Topaz, I am totally spacing on the women. I just can't remember things like hair length, and I never would have been able to pick Andrew out of a line-up. I mean, we are talking Section 14, Row G. I remember one in a red skirt, one being much older, and one wearing beige.

As for whether I could have done better . . . of course not!! I'm a Real Person, and I'll be the first to admit that I Can't Serve! Fortunately for me, a lot of my opponents are Real People who Can't Return.

This sort of event might make a great silent auction item at a charity event. How much would you bid to have the chance to serve three balls, radar gun, winner of previous ATP match standing next to you?

I'll start the bidding at $250.

I'm not cool with the radar gun. I would like to keep my fragile ego somewhat intact.

Nah, that wasn't me. When I hit my first serve, Roddick said, "He looks like a good player." Then I hit my second serve and he said "He looked like a good player." Then I went to pick the ball up and lightly hit it at him. Here's a picture of the guy I competed against and the 3.5 and under women.

Andrew Y said:

Nah, that wasn't me. When I hit my first serve, Roddick said, "He looks like a good player." Then I hit my second serve and he said "He looked like a good player." Then I went to pick the ball up and lightly hit it at him. Here's a picture of the guy I competed against and the 3.5 and under women.

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OK, *now* I remember you! I must have been doing something else -- I certainly didn't see you hit a ball at Roddick -- but I remember him ribbing you.

Which of those women had the 66 mph serve? And which one -- bless her heart -- mishit a serve so badly it landed in her own service box, prompting a huge groan from the section where I was watching?

I think the same lady bounced her first serve over and later hit a 66 MPH serve. She was the one who won in 3.5 and under. The taller woman in 4.0 and above won with a 73 MPH serve I believe. She qualified by competing in the Asian Festival.

conditionZero said:

No need to pick on Cindy. The whole thing was done to amuse the crowd, and it obviously worked.

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WRONG. No NEED for her to pick on others when she can't play herself! Reread her post.

Oh, good lord. This is a good, fun thread...so naturally someone must try to destroy it. A shame.

magmasilk said:

overall my conclusion bases of the match results (query/hewitt second serve in the 90's) and the serving competition is that it is not all too hard to get 100. In the course or usta 3.5 dbls (1st line so plenty of these players play up/ get bumped up) there a number of players that hit over 100 and most good flat serves in the 90's.

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In my experience in Atlanta, at the 3.5 level (and even 4.0), I have witnessed very few servers that could consistently hit serves at 100 mph during a match.

Again, this is my experience after years of playing in Atlanta, but most first serves are in the high 80s or 90 mph. Few can hit in the high 90s and very few can hit around 100 mph.

I wasn't there, but keeping in mind that these individuals were the best of the bunch, it sounds like what I would expect, most can serve in the high 80s and although a player may be able to hit a serve at 110 mph on rare occasions, I doubt that these players are hitting 100 mph in the normal match.

Cindysphinx said:

All right. So the serves I see in 7.0 mixed are probably about 85 mph.

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Probably more in the 60-75 range, with the occasional exception.

As you have pointed out in your post, most guys who rear back and give it their all, ain't putting it in the box.The ones who do at that level are mostly serving in the 60-75 range.

drakulie said:

Probably more in the 60-75 range, with the occasional exception.

As you have pointed out in your post, most guys who rear back and give it their all, ain't putting it in the box.The ones who do at that level are mostly serving in the 60-75 range.

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That slow?

My theory was that since we know the one woman with poor mechanics managed 66 with a lot of pressure on her, most people with zero mechanics are doing 60. The 3.5 guys I face usually have pretty good mechanics in comparison to that lady, so I would expect them to be hitting higher than 60-75.

Cindysphinx said:

That slow?

My theory was that since we know the one woman with poor mechanics managed 66 with a lot of pressure on her, most people with zero mechanics are doing 60. The 3.5 guys I face usually have pretty good mechanics in comparison to that lady, so I would expect them to be hitting higher than 60-75.

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It really just depends. remember, over the course of a match, players want to get the ball in play, and if it means slowing down their swings, they'll do just that. I'm not saying everyone serves in the 60-75 range at that level, because there are many that could serve much faster. However, in my experience (and I have a radar gun), I've seen that the players at that level do the following:

1. Grossly exaggerat how fast they could serve.

2. For the most part hit in the 75-85 range when trying to serve their fastest.

As for point number 2, ,,,,, remember they are just trying to serve as fast as they can without worrying about getting the ball in, so I would imagine they are serving slower that that when in a match, as opposed to goofing around finding out how fast they serve.

Fair enough. Although Andrew did say the serve had to go in or it didn't count. A serving competition where the ball can fly into the stands is about as silly as having a free throw competition where the ball doesn't have to go through the hoop. I'm glad Andrew clarified that for us.

Anyway, you're probably right. There's only so much one can learn from extrapolating one person's likely speed based on what the 66 mph lady did.

The whole thing once again shows just how remarkable top tennis pros are. They really are freaks of nature. I watched John Isner's QF match at Legg Mason from the first row behind the baseline. The serve would come, and I would think for sure there was absolutely no way he would reach it and it would be an ace. He would sort of appear out of nowhere in front of me, intercept the ball at the last instant, and hit a great shot. It's superhuman.

Cruzer said:

Completely understandable regarding the nervousness. I know several every good club players that have completely fallen apart playing a USTA district playoff match.

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Then they must not be "very good"

goran_ace said:

No warm-up? Ouch. My shoulder hurts just thinking about doing that!

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+1

Hats off to anyone willing to put their serve out on display in front of so many people, battling nerves and all, without even being able to warm up properly.

Cindysphinx said:

The whole thing once again shows just how remarkable top tennis pros are. They really are freaks of nature. I watched John Isner's QF match at Legg Mason from the first row behind the baseline. The serve would come, and I would think for sure there was absolutely no way he would reach it and it would be an ace. He would sort of appear out of nowhere in front of me, intercept the ball at the last instant, and hit a great shot. It's superhuman.

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When people would talk about running around their backhand, I used to think that that was only an option against slow moving shots. But I've seen pros run around their backhand to return serves! How this can be done against a professional level serve is something I cannot understand. I'll see it happen and still not understand it. So most of the "winners" my opponents hit against me, would not be close to being winners against a pro.

OrangePower said:

+1
Hats off to anyone willing to put their serve out on display in front of so many people, battling nerves and all, without even being able to warm up properly.

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I think it's relevant to mention here, (with all the talk about radar and serves), that in the 70's, Johnny Carson invited Roscoe Tanner to come on The Tonight Show and demonstrate his serve. Everyone had heard about Tanner's 140 mph serves. I was surprised when his first attempts were only in the 80's. Later, he hit a few in the 90's. Eventually, he broke 100, but it took awhile. This makes me skeptical about all the people who believe they serve over 100 mph. Because even when Tanner "only" served in the 90's, Carson was exclaiming about how fast it was. Breaking 100 takes awhile even for one of the best servers of all time.

Later, it occured to me that this demonstration might have been unfair to Tanner. He was wearing his street clothes. He did not have on tennis shoes, and he didn't get an oppportunity to warm up.

Take from this anecdote what you will.

Steady Eddy said:

When people would talk about running around their backhand, I used to think that that was only an option against slow moving shots. But I've seen pros run around their backhand to return serves! How this can be done against a professional level serve is something I cannot understand. I'll see it happen and still not understand it. So most of the "winners" my opponents hit against me, would not be close to being winners against a pro.


I think it's relevant to mention here, (with all the talk about radar and serves), that in the 70's, Johnny Carson invited Roscoe Tanner to come on The Tonight Show and demonstrate his serve. Everyone had heard about Tanner's 140 mph serves. I was surprised when his first attempts were only in the 80's. Later, he hit a few in the 90's. Eventually, he broke 100, but it took awhile. This makes me skeptical about all the people who believe they serve over 100 mph. Because even when Tanner "only" served in the 90's, Carson was exclaiming about how fast it was. Breaking 100 takes awhile even for one of the best servers of all time.

Later, it occured to me that this demonstration might have been unfair to Tanner. He was wearing his street clothes. He did not have on tennis shoes, and he didn't get an oppportunity to warm up.

Take from this anecdote what you will.

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I don't know anything about tanner, but I would imagine someone who can hit 140 mph would absolutely never have trouble hitting 100mph even under pressure. I can see him struggling to hit 120-140 in that environment but not 100.

IMO, lots of league players do one or both of two things:

#1 - overestimate the mphs of their serve

#2 - have never actually clocked their serve with a radar gun, and have no basis to even speculate