I do not want the student to focus on one part of the body. I want them to get the motion down. Done.
What BB said.
I do not want the student to focus on one part of the body. I want them to get the motion down. Done.
Pronation, as an action of muscles, is totally not important as long as it does not have any impact on the racquet's head. So, if you do not look biomechanically but physicially (as do I) you see that there is no pronation at all on the first frame of "my" sequence of images of Sampras' serve.
I do not agree. Students should know what they do, they should know fundamental physics and biomechanics behind strokes and understand their role. Without that they are simple machines. Something goes wrong and they are unable to correct their mistakes.
Basically I do not understand at all, why tennis teachers do not teach about physics and biomechanics, but give ready formulas and talk "hit as you like". Knowledge is fundamental, everywhere in modern sport. But not in tennis... Sad.
Drakulie, I'm sure you don't understand my previous posts. Just read them again.
Drakulie, I'm sure you don't understand my previous posts. Just read them again.
Basically I do not understand at all, why tennis teachers do not teach about physics and biomechanics, but give ready formulas and talk "hit as you like". Knowledge is fundamental, everywhere in modern sport. But not in tennis... Sad.
are still debating this? THe motion of how to serve properly using prnation as applied to tennis needs to be taught. Done deal. Once taught, it becomes autonomic. Done.
The biomechanical arguments are ridiculous because all it is is people using semantics so that they have their own way. Does literally pronating the wrist cause an increase in racquet head speed? No. Does the entire motion which INCLUDES pronation and is thus called such when referring to tennis cause an increase in racquet head speed? Yes. Done.
I'm afraid that some of us do not understand your previous posts. Not to be mean, but I suspect that English is not your first language and your writing style is not as clear as you might think it is.
I understand what you are saying just fine in the post I quoted. You are saying that Sampras only "pronates" at the last possible moment before impact. This is incorrect. Sampras begins to pronate much earlier than that. Pronation begins as he brings the racquet up from the back scratch position. he is then fully "prone" at contact.
I do not talk about the beginning of muscles' action, I talk about physics of racquet's head.
I've love to read the work, even if it's not "publish ready."Tricky - I've discovered recently very powerful information about the ground strokes (all of them) that I believe will keep you in the bathroom for a while - changed my entire conception.
and the racquet head is on its side when in the back scratch position. As he begins to bring the racquet up towards the ball, it begins to turn where the string bed begins to face the net. This is pronation. End of story. You are wrong.
I've love to read the work, even if it's not "publish ready."
I took your articles on the serve, took a lot of notes, and remodeled what I understood about the kinetic chain around it. I can't really understate enough how much your work clarified the mechanics of the serve for me and it was just fairly easy to kinda "mix-and-match" with the different muscle groups. Also, I used it as a point of departure to add and speculate on other aspects.
Also, it actually cleaned up some things about groundstroke mechanics for me as well.
can u share with the rest of us? i might now be on tricky's level of understanding but i do love learning.Drop a line through my site contact section with contact info if comfortable - still mostly in my head and stroke data interface - otherwise I'll throw it out there at some point.
can u share with the rest of us? i might now be on tricky's level of understanding but i do love learning.
I do not agree. Students should know what they do, they should know fundamental physics and biomechanics behind strokes and understand their role. Without that they are simple machines. Something goes wrong and they are unable to correct their mistakes.
Basically I do not understand at all, why tennis teachers do not teach about physics and biomechanics, but give ready formulas and talk "hit as you like". Knowledge is fundamental, everywhere in modern sport. But not in tennis... Sad.
Perhaps, you havent taught very long? Or maybe you just work with a certain age group or level? Certain students want to know the details not all of them. If a person asks why, you can tell them, but the main focus in the serve is the entire motion.
If you explain one body part and draw attention to it, you risk the student solely focusing on that body part and forgetting other way more important areas.
The best teachers can get the student to perform things without them having to know the science behind it.
We are teaching biomechanics. We are teaching how the arm works without telling them to focus on pronation. Does a Doctor tell you how he analyzed the patient? Does he start telling you and bogging you down with medical language of what you have? Why not? Shouldn't you know? Shouldn't you know how the bone broke and its scientific explanation that only medical doctors can understand? Or what about the attorney with all the legal language under his belt. Should he explain it to you as he would a fellow attorney? Or does he simply leave that out and speak in an easy to understand manner.
If you are so concerned about teaching scientifically and going thorugh eveyr element of biomechanics and physics to a student? I feel sorry for you.
I do not teach tennis. Don't know how things look like in USA, but in Poland I do not see people talking about physics or biomechanics on the court.
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...and that's sad imo. There is no good tennis without knowledge. Imagine F1 driver without knowledge about engines. Imagine ski jumper without knowledge about aerodynamics. Go watch martial arts trainings you will see people explaining physical rules of strokes. There is no similar culture in tennis, I'm afraid. Modern tennis prefers machines. Sometimes I really dream about Tilden times...
I do not need to know details, but I should know main ideas. This is what good doctors do: they explain complicated things in simple words. In physics people often say that if you can't explain your work in simple words, it's probably worth nothing. I think the same should work in tennis.
Really? You know, as a science journalist I have many lectures for random people. I talk about quantum mechanics, nuclear physics, cosmology and metodology of science. At the end people are still alive. I don't think tennis physics is more complicated than quantum mechanics.
IMO good teacher is able to show, but the best one is able to explain.
I had a go at this last night. I pronated primarily from internal rotation of the shoulder which i have never consciously done before. the effect was phenomenal. i was able to produce effortless power but it did not seem to be the pronation alone. it seem that pronating by internal shoulder rotation caused me to stretch the pectoral muscles more AND aim my chest up toward the ball. it also prevented me from opening my shoulders too early and produced a cartwheel affect as well. then i found that i was able to loosen both my arm and wrist more and finally experienced the effect of not muscling the ball. the explosion happened more from shoulder rotation and as i brought my torso to an abrupt stop as the service shoulder came over the top of my tossing shoulder, the loose arm and wrist was whipped around.So... according to my research if by pronation one very loosely means forearm internal rotation due primarily to shoulder internal rotation then it is a huge contributor to racquet speed – if one means true pronation (the forearm RELATIVE to the upper arm), it is a negative (decreases racquet speed) contributor – for high level players on the average - a critical coaching and training distinction in my opinion.
I pronated primarily from internal rotation of the shoulder which i have never consciously done before.
its sad that it took me this long to get to this understanding tricky. i do see why you DO NOT advocate isolating the wrist snap to teach pronation. what i experienced last night was remarkable. the shoulder motion in the cartwheel does it all. it leads the arm and the wrist and pronation happens completely naturally by this one motion. WHY IS NO ONE TEACHING THIS??? or expounding on this? this is completely different from "Pronate at the last minute before contact" that people are teaching. they should be teaching "spring that body up toward the ball while bringing the shoulder over the top and then suddenly/abruptly stop the torso from bending forward (stay vertical). this will cause the shoulder to produce inner rotation." in a sense, i am loading everything up to throw my shoulder at the ball. the arm and wrist is just a by-product.That's why I'm a purist about this issue. If you know how to execute a cartwheel motion the pronated finish happens automatically even if you're using an Eastern forehand grip. I'm not a fan of isolating the pronation phase of the serve.
Again, it's about learning the cartwheel motion. Work on tossing the ball with your weight transferring forward (i.e. forward momentum.) That sets up the cartwheel motion of the serve. Using the one foot drill works beautifully here.
this will be my next experiment.Using the one foot drill works beautifully here.
if you don't swing up toward the ball and keep the center of the chest aimed up at the ball. you will have problems hitting into the net. the pronation with this method will be so strong because it will involve the shoulder and chest muscles (instead of forearm muscles) that it will shoot that ball downward. you definitely have to be hitting up the mountain to compensate for that strong downward effect.I could see the ball having tons of pace, but going right into the net. Or I could see it just having great pace.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
Yeah, the thing with your original service motion is that you've never experienced significant internal rotation before. In your back swing, you would kinda swing your arm back and then fling your arm up into the trophy pose, and then try to essentially initiate the serve from that.the shoulder motion in the cartwheel does it all
Mmm . . . if you notice your torso bending forward excessively, then you probably are using your lower back in your windup."spring that body up toward the ball while bringing the shoulder over the top and then suddenly/abruptly stop the torso from bending forward (stay vertical). this will cause the shoulder to produce inner rotation."
You can learn the cartwheel motion in this way . . .WHY IS NO ONE TEACHING THIS???
if you don't swing up toward the ball and keep the center of the chest aimed up at the ball. you will have problems hitting into the net. the pronation with this method will be so strong because it will involve the shoulder and chest muscles (instead of forearm muscles) that it will shoot that ball downward. you definitely have to be hitting up the mountain to compensate for that strong downward effect.
also this method caused me to feel flex of the wrist for the first time. even when i thought i was loosening the arm, i really wasn't. how could i when i had to create pronation from the forearm consciously?
i personally have no problem consciously pronating but what i am advocating here is NOT pronating with the forearm but pronating with the shoulder. do this simple exercise:There are just a few things that make me feel like consciously pronating could be correct:
what i am proposing is that the serve motion, starting from the trophy pose, gets its most efficient power by focusing more on what the shoulder is doing than what the forearm and wrist are doing. the forearm and wrist are inactive components of the serve and the more inactive we can make them, the more power we will generate. this is what people mean by a loose arm and the "whip" analogy.Do you mean focus on rotating your arm at the shoulder (like in the exercise you suggested) throughout the serve? Quite frankly, I don't know how anyone could NOT rotate their shoulder like that in the serve motion.
sure you do. do the same configuration facing the wall with the arm out to the side at a right angle and this time immobilize the shoulder and upper-arm. now *snap* the wrist such that your thumb points downward. voila! pronation and the shoulder never moved.Quite frankly, I don't know how anyone could NOT rotate their shoulder like that in the serve motion.
from what i gathered so far tricky, the trunk acts like a pole vaulters pole. the most protruding section being the hip flexor. during the wind up, the weight of the body loads over the front foot and wants to continue moving into the court. this loads potential energy into the hip flexor. the tossing arm, straight up in the air. helps form that bowing arc that we see with the loaded pole vaulter's pole just before the vaulter gets propelled up and over the high bar. the knees bend automatically to keep you from going into the court prematurely, this also completes the arching form of the pole vaulter's pole.This kinda goes back to learning the serve finish-to-start or start-to-finish. Buffman, you are analyzing the serve finish-to-start, and so you want to next look at the relationship between the shoulder and your trunk.
Think about how the trunk tilts toward the left in the finish (i.e. the left shoulder pivots downward around the right shoulder) and see how that affects the shoulder position and internal rotation.
You should almost feel like your shoulder is coming up and hitting your ear as your upper arm extends forward.
if i might add, this opens up a new can of worms as it is very difficult to put your weight behind your shots when your toss is all over the map. LOL! now i see why all the coaches i've heard propose the toss to be THE most important part of the serve. a consistent toss out into the court and in front of the body can reap great rewards when coupled with proper serve technique.The easy to visualize this is to put your weight behind your shots.
if i might add, this opens up a new can of worms as it is very difficult to put your weight behind your shots when your toss is all over the map.
the most protruding section being the hip flexor.
the knees bend automatically to keep you from going into the court prematurely, this also completes the arching form of the pole vaulter's pole.
as the energy in the hip flexor is released by launching the chest up toward the ball, the shoulders perform a see-saw motion using the center of the chest as a pivot point.
stopping the pole/torso as it reaches the vertical position throws the shoulders attached to the top of the torso/pole just like a vaulter being thrown from the vaulter's pole.
my weight shifts onto the balls of the front foot and the hip flexes as the left side of my body forms an arc
my back leg slides up next to the front foot
i feel myself being pulled into the court and my knees automatically bend preventing me from faulting
my torso turns toward the back fence and i feel a stretch in my obliques as the back leg (now poised next to the front leg) prevents my legs from turning with my torso.
it creates a twist at the waist/mid-section
my pectoral muscles stretch as i pull my elbow back as much as possible using the abreviated service motion
i recall people talking previously about finishing with the elbow up. even though that might be effective, i believe we have been missing the concept.
Agree fully. This holds for those who truly want to improve, and do not just look at tennis as another social sport.There is no good tennis without good knowledge.
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There is no good tennis without good knowledge...
^ As for the physics involved in pronation, consider moment of inertia. Pronation assistsin producing racket head speed efficiently due to this "notational inertia". If a player were to try to to substitute an exaggerated wrist flexion (only) in lieu of pronation (in concert with other actions), the moment of inertia would be greater. This action might also be detrimental to the wrist.
Note than modern players and elite players for much of the 20th century have been employing pronation, long before they were even aware of it. Players have long been told by coaches to "snap the wrist". Despite this questionable directive, elite players have pronated on the serve (and other strokes), often without being consciously aware of it.