Do we need any more proof that why Nadal beats Federer is because Nadal plays lefty?

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

Nadal's lefty massive, high-bouncing, topspin crosscourt forehand to Federer's one-handed backhand has always been a major headache for Federer. However, that same shot to Djokovic is ineffective because Djokovic effectively nullifies Nadal's lefty advantage with his great two-handed backhand, which he can crush either down-the-line or with sharp crosscourt angles. Thus, without his lefty advantage, Nadal is basically left without any weapons. He might as well play right-handed against Djokovic because the results would be the same.

And anyone who claims that if Nadal played right -handed he could just hit inside-out forehands to Federer's backhand and have the same results is wrong. That's because Nadal's inside-out forehand is much flatter than his cross-court forehand so that ball wouldn't bounce nearly as high to Federer's one-handed backhand. Federer would also have far fewer problems with Nadal's serves in the ad court.

namelessone · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Nadal's lefty massive, high-bouncing, topspin crosscourt forehand to Federer's one-handed backhand has always been a major headache for Federer. However, that same shot to Djokovic is ineffective because Djokovic effectively nullifies Nadal's lefty advantage with his great two-handed backhand, which he can crush either down-the-line or with sharp crosscourt angles. Thus, without his lefty advantage, Nadal is basically left without any weapons. He might as well play right-handed against Djokovic because the results would be the same.

And anyone who claims that if Nadal played right -handed he could just hit inside-out forehands to Federer's backhand and have the same results is wrong. That's because Nadal's inside-out forehand is much flatter than his cross-court forehand so that ball wouldn't bounce nearly as high to Federer's one-handed backhand. Federer would also have far fewer problems with Nadal's serves in the ad court.

Well that explains Lopez and Verdasco's stellar h2h with Fed.

Your argument might be valid if Nadal wasn't the only lefty that Fed didn't spank around, regardless of surface or form.

monfed · Sep 13, 2011

namelessone said:
Well that explains Lopez and Verdasco's stellar h2h with Fed.

Nadal generates 5000 rpm of topspin which Lopez and Verdasco don't.

namelessone · Sep 13, 2011

monfed said:
Nadal generates 5000 rpm of topspin which Lopez and Verdasco don't.

Wrong, he generates 3200 average, 5000 is the top level.

hawk eye · Sep 13, 2011

If Karlovic was 5ft 10 instead of 6 ft 8 he wouln't be in the top 100, or even ATP pro tennis player.

But he isn't .

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

namelessone said:
Well that explains Lopez and Verdasco's stellar h2h with Fed.

Your argument might be valid if Nadal wasn't the only lefty that Fed didn't spank around, regardless of surface or form.

Yes, because Lopez and Verdasco also hit massive, high-bouncing, topspin crosscourt forehands exactly like Nadal does. :roll:

NOBODY'S crosscourt forehand has as much wicked spin nor bounces as high as Nadal's does.

vllaznia · Sep 13, 2011

namelessone said:
Well that explains Lopez and Verdasco's stellar h2h with Fed.

Your argument might be valid if Nadal wasn't the only lefty that Fed didn't spank around, regardless of surface or form.

Lopez and Verdasco are no where near Nadal's level of play, imo Nadal even if it was righty would be a multi slam champion but his head to head with Federer would not be so one sided, be sure of that.

ViscaB · Sep 13, 2011

Breakpoint has to cling on to something...

I hate these cliches. It's the same if I would claim Federer has won so many slams because his serve. Imagine Rafa with Federer's serve. He would break all records.

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

hawk eye said:
If Karlovic was 5ft 10 instead of 6 ft 8 he wouln't be in the top 100, or even ATP pro tennis player.

But he isn't .

Nadal is naturally right-handed but was made to play tennis left-handed by his Uncle Toni. Karlovic is naturally 6' 10".

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

ViscaB said:
Breakpoint has to cling on to something...

I hate these cliches. It's the same if I would claim Federer has won so many slams because his serve. Imagine Rafa with Federer's serve. He would break all records.

It's not the same thing at all. Federer is naturally right-handed and he serves right-handed. If he served left-handed, he'd have 25 Slams by now.

Meanwhile, Nadal is also naturally right-handed but he plays left-handed because he and Uncle Toni know that gives him a HUGE advantage.

I hope you're not suggesting that the Federer-Nadal head-to-head would be exactly the same if Nadal played right-handed are you?

Clay lover · Sep 13, 2011

Is ok, you can imagine up an ideal world where Nadal is not a righty and therefore won't take away any achievements from your hero. It's totally fine. Nobody will object. All lives within your mind.

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

Clay lover said:
Is ok, you can imagine up an ideal world where Nadal is not a righty and therefore won't take away any achievements from your hero. It's totally fine. Nobody will object. All lives within your mind.

So you agree that Nadal's biggest weapon against Federer is that he chooses to play left-handed instead of his natural right-handed?

Because that same weapon doesn't hurt Djokovic in the least.

hawk eye · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Nadal is naturally right-handed but was made to play tennis left-handed by his Uncle Toni. Karlovic is naturally 6' 10".

What's the relevance of that? It isn't like oh, Fed plays right so we gonna pounce his BH and therefore youy need to play leftie, Rafa.
They didn't even know Fed was a rightie by then.

Players come to the courts to compete with all their qualities and physical trademarks. Leftie or rightie is part of that.
Ivanisevic serve an NC Enroe serve where that effective largely because they were leftie. Does that make their achievements any less valuable?..

BTW it could very well be Nadal would have been a even better, a far better player than he is now, playing with is non dominant hand. He must be extremely talented to pull of this career while he's not even a natural leftie. Very likely he would have blown everyone of the courts as a rightie, including Djoker 2011.

Netzroller · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Nadal is naturally right-handed but was made to play tennis left-handed by his Uncle Toni. Karlovic is naturally 6' 10".

No he isn't, it's called cross-dominance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dominance. If he was really right handed, he would have never become such a great player using his non dominant hand. The topic is really a bit more complex than you think...

And what's your point anyways. It's not forbidden to use you left hand. Yes it helps Nadal to beat Federer, but that's not Nadal's problem. Federer could have developed a 2HBH like Novak if he wanted to prevent this from happening

Bjorn99 · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Nadal's lefty massive, high-bouncing, topspin crosscourt forehand to Federer's one-handed backhand has always been a major headache for Federer. However, that same shot to Djokovic is ineffective because Djokovic effectively nullifies Nadal's lefty advantage with his great two-handed backhand, which he can crush either down-the-line or with sharp crosscourt angles. Thus, without his lefty advantage, Nadal is basically left without any weapons. He might as well play right-handed against Djokovic because the results would be the same.

And anyone who claims that if Nadal played right -handed he could just hit inside-out forehands to Federer's backhand and have the same results is wrong. That's because Nadal's inside-out forehand is much flatter than his cross-court forehand so that ball wouldn't bounce nearly as high to Federer's one-handed backhand. Federer would also have far fewer problems with Nadal's serves in the ad court.

If you can handle a lefties forehand cross court, you can terrorize the *******s.

Let it be said that Nadal doesn't even come close to taking full advantage of his lefthandedness. His serve is quite poor in regard to swinging the ball in and around the service box.

He actually COULD improve if he got a coach that could drum that into his head.

fednad · Sep 13, 2011

hawk eye said:
If Karlovic was 5ft 10 instead of 6 ft 8 he wouln't be in the top 100, or even ATP pro tennis player.

But he isn't .

You should have written 5ft 8.
That would have meant a gap of 1 foot and your argument would have looked more emphatic.

AR15 · Sep 13, 2011

I don't think Nadal is successful hitting that shot to Djoker a third as much as he hit it to Fed. So, it's not as much as who handles the shot better, it's which player gives Nadal the opportunity to execute that shot.

Sentinel · Sep 13, 2011

YES. But also the slower, high bouncing courts. MAybe. I think. Perhaps.

spun_out · Sep 13, 2011

Loopy crosscourts, sure, but I think there's more important match up issues. Nadal likes high loopy balls coming to his fh, fast ones to his bh. Djokovic's loopy fh eats up Nadal's bh, which inevitably coughs up a short ball. Nadal could change direction by going up the line with his bh, but most often, Djokovic punishes these soft dtl bhs with a hard flat crosscourt bh that puts Nadal on the defensive (because Nadal doesn't like flat shots to his fh, as I said).

In contrast, Federer's cc fhs are hard and flat (relatively speaking), while his cc bhs are loopy. So Federer fh vs. Nadal bh is not a bad match up for Nadal, and he can change direction and go to Federer's bh when given the chance, which Federer most often loops to Nadal's fh side for Nadal to hit those wicked loopy fhs to Federer, which, of course, Federer doesn't like.

So in short, Federer needs a hard flat cc bh and a loopy dtl bh (both of which Djokovic possesses) in addition to a loopy cc fh to beat Nadal. I am not sure, though, what Nadal needs to beat Djokovic. Perhaps he needs a loopy cc bh to Djokovic's fh and grind until Djokovic gets tired. The loopy cc fhs that Djokovic hits seem to require lots of work, and I think that this shot might have been what hurt his shoulder in Cincy. And of course, Nadal needs a better serve capable of getting free points, but that's easier said than done.

DjokovicForTheWin · Sep 13, 2011

namelessone said:
Wrong, he generates 3200 average, 5000 is the top level.

Wait if Nadal has generated 5000 rpm, then how is his statement wrong?

DjokovicForTheWin · Sep 13, 2011

True that one can imagine up any hypothetical scenario. What is, is though. And give with what is, the bottom line is Federer has 16 slams and Nadal 10. Period.

Andres · Sep 13, 2011

Djokovic has a better backhand than Federer.

End of thread.

drgchen · Sep 13, 2011

Nadal is a good player in his own right. But I believe that his wins against Federer are mostly because he is lefty. Slice serves go to the Federer backhand, Big loopy forehands go the the Federer backhand. It is next to impossible to put away a high topspin backhand shot if you have a one hander. Federer has one weakness and Nadal's strength (loopy topspin balls) plays right to the weakness.

Deleted member 21996 · Sep 13, 2011

ViscaB said:
Breakpoint has to cling on to something...

I hate these cliches. It's the same if I would claim Federer has won so many slams because his serve. Imagine Rafa with Federer's serve. He would break all records.

this is cute... coming from you it's just cute...

SLD76 · Sep 13, 2011

spun_out said:
Loopy crosscourts, sure, but I think there's more important match up issues. Nadal likes high loopy balls coming to his fh, fast ones to his bh. Djokovic's loopy fh eats up Nadal's bh, which inevitably coughs up a short ball. Nadal could change direction by going up the line with his bh, but most often, Djokovic punishes these soft dtl bhs with a hard flat crosscourt bh that puts Nadal on the defensive (because Nadal doesn't like flat shots to his fh, as I said).

In contrast, Federer's cc fhs are hard and flat (relatively speaking), while his cc bhs are loopy. So Federer fh vs. Nadal bh is not a bad match up for Nadal, and he can change direction and go to Federer's bh when given the chance, which Federer most often loops to Nadal's fh side for Nadal to hit those wicked loopy fhs to Federer, which, of course, Federer doesn't like.

So in short, Federer needs a hard flat cc bh and a loopy dtl bh (both of which Djokovic possesses) in addition to a loopy cc fh to beat Nadal. I am not sure, though, what Nadal needs to beat Djokovic. Perhaps he needs a loopy cc bh to Djokovic's fh and grind until Djokovic gets tired. The loopy cc fhs that Djokovic hits seem to require lots of work, and I think that this shot might have been what hurt his shoulder in Cincy. And of course, Nadal needs a better serve capable of getting free points, but that's easier said than done.

Fed was blasting hard flatter bh's to djoker all day in the semi. then again, djoker's bh to his bh isnt high and loopy.

its the height of the spin to the bh that does the damage and only nadal possesses the ability to do this.

ask tsonga and djoker in this year's USO about Fed's weak loopy bh, particularly up the line.

BeHappy · Sep 13, 2011

spun_out said:
Loopy crosscourts, sure, but I think there's more important match up issues. Nadal likes high loopy balls coming to his fh, fast ones to his bh. Djokovic's loopy fh eats up Nadal's bh, which inevitably coughs up a short ball. Nadal could change direction by going up the line with his bh, but most often, Djokovic punishes these soft dtl bhs with a hard flat crosscourt bh that puts Nadal on the defensive (because Nadal doesn't like flat shots to his fh, as I said).

In contrast, Federer's cc fhs are hard and flat (relatively speaking), while his cc bhs are loopy. So Federer fh vs. Nadal bh is not a bad match up for Nadal, and he can change direction and go to Federer's bh when given the chance, which Federer most often loops to Nadal's fh side for Nadal to hit those wicked loopy fhs to Federer, which, of course, Federer doesn't like.

So in short, Federer needs a hard flat cc bh and a loopy dtl bh (both of which Djokovic possesses) in addition to a loopy cc fh to beat Nadal. I am not sure, though, what Nadal needs to beat Djokovic. Perhaps he needs a loopy cc bh to Djokovic's fh and grind until Djokovic gets tired. The loopy cc fhs that Djokovic hits seem to require lots of work, and I think that this shot might have been what hurt his shoulder in Cincy. And of course, Nadal needs a better serve capable of getting free points, but that's easier said than done.

Interesting post.

Crisstti · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Yes, because Lopez and Verdasco also hit massive, high-bouncing, topspin crosscourt forehands exactly like Nadal does. :roll:

NOBODY'S crosscourt forehand has as much wicked spin nor bounces as high as Nadal's does.

So then what you actually think is that it's Nadal's effect on the ball that beats Fed, not the fact his left-handed.

Good to know.

BreakPoint said:
Nadal is naturally right-handed but was made to play tennis left-handed by his Uncle Toni. Karlovic is naturally 6' 10".

Nope, that's just a myth. Rafa used to hit a two handed FH, and when Toni got him to change it to a one handed FH, he says something along the lines that he noticed he seemed to have more control witnh his left hand. Plus, Rafa is left footed to play football.

Netzroller said:
No he isn't, it's called cross-dominance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dominance. If he was really right handed, he would have never become such a great player using his non dominant hand. The topic is really a bit more complex than you think...

And what's your point anyways. It's not forbidden to use you left hand. Yes it helps Nadal to beat Federer, but that's not Nadal's problem. Federer could have developed a 2HBH like Novak if he wanted to prevent this from happening

This.

Bjorn99 said:
If you can handle a lefties forehand cross court, you can terrorize the *******s.

Let it be said that Nadal doesn't even come close to taking full advantage of his lefthandedness. His serve is quite poor in regard to swinging the ball in and around the service box.

He actually COULD improve if he got a coach that could drum that into his head.

At least he seems to notice his service really needs work. He could just hire an additional couch.

spun_out said:
Loopy crosscourts, sure, but I think there's more important match up issues. Nadal likes high loopy balls coming to his fh, fast ones to his bh. Djokovic's loopy fh eats up Nadal's bh, which inevitably coughs up a short ball. Nadal could change direction by going up the line with his bh, but most often, Djokovic punishes these soft dtl bhs with a hard flat crosscourt bh that puts Nadal on the defensive (because Nadal doesn't like flat shots to his fh, as I said).

In contrast, Federer's cc fhs are hard and flat (relatively speaking), while his cc bhs are loopy. So Federer fh vs. Nadal bh is not a bad match up for Nadal, and he can change direction and go to Federer's bh when given the chance, which Federer most often loops to Nadal's fh side for Nadal to hit those wicked loopy fhs to Federer, which, of course, Federer doesn't like.

So in short, Federer needs a hard flat cc bh and a loopy dtl bh (both of which Djokovic possesses) in addition to a loopy cc fh to beat Nadal. I am not sure, though, what Nadal needs to beat Djokovic. Perhaps he needs a loopy cc bh to Djokovic's fh and grind until Djokovic gets tired. The loopy cc fhs that Djokovic hits seem to require lots of work, and I think that this shot might have been what hurt his shoulder in Cincy. And of course, Nadal needs a better serve capable of getting free points, but that's easier said than done.

That is an interesting analysis.

max · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Nadal's lefty massive, high-bouncing, topspin crosscourt forehand to Federer's one-handed backhand has always been a major headache for Federer. However, that same shot to Djokovic is ineffective because Djokovic effectively nullifies Nadal's lefty advantage with his great two-handed backhand, which he can crush either down-the-line or with sharp crosscourt angles. Thus, without his lefty advantage, Nadal is basically left without any weapons. He might as well play right-handed against Djokovic because the results would be the same.

And anyone who claims that if Nadal played right -handed he could just hit inside-out forehands to Federer's backhand and have the same results is wrong. That's because Nadal's inside-out forehand is much flatter than his cross-court forehand so that ball wouldn't bounce nearly as high to Federer's one-handed backhand. Federer would also have far fewer problems with Nadal's serves in the ad court.

Very interesting point, indeed! Two thumbs up, BP!

Biscuitmcgriddleson · Sep 13, 2011

Crisstti said:
So then what you actually think is that it's Nadal's effect on the ball that beats Fed, not the fact his left-handed.

Good to know.

Nope, that's just a myth. Rafa used to hit a two handed FH, and when Toni got him to change it to a one handed FH, he says something along the lines that he noticed he seemed to have more control witnh his left hand. Plus, Rafa is left footed to play football.

This.

At least he seems to notice his service really needs work. He could just hire an additional couch.

That is an interesting analysis.

AFAIK he only uses his left hand for tennis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-01XvmcF6Ak

That doesn't seem to qualify him for cross dominance.

Deleted member 21996 · Sep 13, 2011

Crisstti said:
At least he seems to notice his service really needs work. He could just hire an additional couch.

to sit and wait for Djokovic's slump?

Andres · Sep 13, 2011

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4784958&postcount=15

Let me copy something I wrote a year ago. The stats may be a tad off now (a year later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Give it a rest BP. It's Nadal.

Edit:

68-24 minus 7-14 = 61-10
80-28 minus 8-17 = 72-11

Come on. Can't be more any more obvious than this. He only lost ONCE to a lefty player not named Nadal in the past 8 years. Who was it? Melzer? Cant remember.

SLD76 · Sep 13, 2011

Andres said:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4784958&postcount=15

Let me copy something I wrote a year ago. The stats may be a tad off now (a year later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Give it a rest BP. It's Nadal.

.....and his singularly unique massive lefty topsin.

again, only Nadal has this ability

if his lefty spin was tour average, the only other weapon rafa would have to bother fed is his speed and defense.

Rippy · Sep 13, 2011

Andres said:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4784958&postcount=15

Let me copy something I wrote a year ago. The stats may be a tad off now (a year later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Give it a rest BP. It's Nadal.

You have spectacularly missed the point of the thread.

Read the title, "Because NADAL PLAYS LEFTY".

NADAL

NADAL PLAYS LEFTY

It isn't that any left-handed player can beat Federer with ease, it's that NADAL playing left-handed can beat Federer with ease. It is due to the massive topspin which he hits with.

sunny_cali · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Nadal's lefty massive, high-bouncing, topspin crosscourt forehand to Federer's one-handed backhand has always been a major headache for Federer. However, that same shot to Djokovic is ineffective because Djokovic effectively nullifies Nadal's lefty advantage with his great two-handed backhand, which he can crush either down-the-line or with sharp crosscourt angles. Thus, without his lefty advantage, Nadal is basically left without any weapons. He might as well play right-handed against Djokovic because the results would be the same.

And anyone who claims that if Nadal played right -handed he could just hit inside-out forehands to Federer's backhand and have the same results is wrong. That's because Nadal's inside-out forehand is much flatter than his cross-court forehand so that ball wouldn't bounce nearly as high to Federer's one-handed backhand. Federer would also have far fewer problems with Nadal's serves in the ad court.

While you are absolutely correct, and I don't disagree -- what exactly is the point of your post ? If Agassi served like Sampras he might have been a better-Sampras, if my uncle was a woman ....

Crisstti · Sep 13, 2011

Andres said:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4784958&postcount=15

Let me copy something I wrote a year ago. The stats may be a tad off now (a year later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Give it a rest BP. It's Nadal.

Edit:

68-24 minus 7-14 = 61-10
80-28 minus 8-17 = 72-11

Come on. Can't be more any more obvious than this. He only lost ONCE to a lefty player not named Nadal in the past 8 years. Who was it? Melzer? Cant remember.

Exactly.

Rippy said:
You have spectacularly missed the point of the thread.

Read the title, "Because NADAL PLAYS LEFTY".

NADAL

NADAL PLAYS LEFTY

It isn't that any left-handed player can beat Federer with ease, it's that NADAL playing left-handed can beat Federer with ease. It is due to the massive topspin which he hits with.

It's you and the OP who miss the point. Roger doesn't lose to Rafa simply because Rafa is lefty (as the OP suggests). ALL of Rafa's game bothers him.

Sentinel · Sep 13, 2011

Djokovic effectively nullifies Nadal's lefty advantage with his great two-handed backhand

So what prevents Fred from developing a great backhand. Why doesn't he shift to a 2h'er (like Sam Sto did, iirc)

sunny_cali · Sep 13, 2011

Crisstti said:
It's you and the OP who miss the point. Roger doesn't lose to Rafa simply because Rafa is lefty (as the OP suggests). ALL of Rafa's game bothers him.

I don't think so. What Rafa has over Fed is the topspin to the BH, and the movement (and of course a definite mental edge). Yet Djoker's movement is at par or better than Rafa's today, his ROS way better -- that didn't stop Fed from beating him once in a GS this year or come close to doing it again.

What do you have in mind, when you say ALL ?

SLD76 · Sep 13, 2011

sunny_cali said:
I don't think so. What Rafa has over Fed is the topspin to the BH, and the movement (and of course a definite mental edge). Yet Djoker's movement is at par or better than Rafa's today, his ROS way better -- that didn't stop Fed from beating him once in a GS this year or come close to doing it again.

What do you have in mind, when you say ALL ?

this here.

if his fh topspin wasnt as pronounced with the amazing spin he generates, all rafa would have is speed and defense to trouble fed with. he'd basically be an upgraded hewitt.

its really amazing, when you think about it.

Crisstti · Sep 13, 2011

sunny_cali said:
I don't think so. What Rafa has over Fed is the topspin to the BH, and the movement (and of course a definite mental edge). Yet Djoker's movement is at par or better than Rafa's today, his ROS way better -- that didn't stop Fed from beating him once in a GS this year or come close to doing it again.

What do you have in mind, when you say ALL ?

Well, I don't mean his overall game gives him the edge. Novak's movement didn't stop Roger from beating him at RG, but he has been beating him more often than not for quite a while now. And sure, Rafa being a lefty gives him some edge, but not on it's own at all. There's the effect he puts on the ball, his movement, his attitude.

sunof tennis · Sep 13, 2011

Crisstti said:
Exactly.

It's you and the OP who miss the point. Roger doesn't lose to Rafa simply because Rafa is lefty (as the OP suggests). ALL of Rafa's game bothers him.

You are both right. Clearly Rafa is light years better than Verdasco or Lopez. He is probably in the top 5 all time greats. However, the one thing that Rafa does, beyond being a great player, which gives Roger some trouble is hit tremendous top spin, high bouncing, forehand shots to Roger's one-handed backhand. Being left handed myself, I know that generally I want to attack a right hander's backhand with my stronger shot, the forehand. On a much higher level, that is what Rafa does. Now would it be enough if Rafa wasn't a world class athlete, who fights for every point as if his life depends on it, proabably not, but it is his main advantage and to his credit, he uses it exceptionally well.
Now when he plays Novak, that advantage is essentially neutralized. Novak is slightly taller than Roger, uses a two-handed backhand which helps on high balls. That backhand of Novak is the best in the world and he gives Rafa fits because not only can he get these high bouncing balls back, he changes the direction better than anyone currently playing. Thus, Rafa can't just camp out in his backhand side to run around and hit forehands.
What does this mean? I believe it means we should enjoy this wonderful age of tennis where we have 3 unbelievable players who each present different match up problems. I personally think we should spend more time enjoying the magical tennis each of these guys' produces as opposed to constantly arguing who is best.

sureshs · Sep 13, 2011

So Breakpoint is now officially admitting that Nadal is the GOAT

Crisstti · Sep 13, 2011

sunof tennis said:
You are both right. Clearly Rafa is light years better than Verdasco or Lopez. He is probably in the top 5 all time greats. However, the one thing that Rafa does, beyond being a great player, which gives Roger some trouble is hit tremendous top spin, high bouncing, forehand shots to Roger's one-handed backhand. Being left handed myself, I know that generally I want to attack a right hander's backhand with my stronger shot, the forehand. On a much higher level, that is what Rafa does. Now would it be enough if Rafa wasn't a world class athlete, who fights for every point as if his life depends on it, proabably not, but it is his main advantage and to his credit, he uses it exceptionally well.
Now when he plays Novak, that advantage is essentially neutralized. Novak is slightly taller than Roger, uses a two-handed backhand which helps on high balls. That backhand of Novak is the best in the world and he gives Rafa fits because not only can he get these high bouncing balls back, he changes the direction better than anyone currently playing. Thus, Rafa can't just camp out in his backhand side to run around and hit forehands.
What does this mean? I believe it means we should enjoy this wonderful age of tennis where we have 3 unbelievable players who each present different match up problems. I personally think we should spend more time enjoying the magical tennis each of these guys' produces as opposed to constantly arguing who is best.

Couldn't agree more with you (especially the last part).

Shangri La · Sep 13, 2011

sureshs said:
So Breakpoint is now officially admitting that Nadal is the GOAT

Or, that 2hbh > 1hbh because it handles different playing styles better and doesnt really have a weakness.

above bored · Sep 13, 2011

vllaznia said:
Lopez and Verdasco are no where near Nadal's level of play, imo Nadal even if it was righty would be a multi slam champion but his head to head with Federer would not be so one sided, be sure of that.

It's not the same. Being able to serve like Federer is about talent, ability and skill.

Having an added advantage because you naturally play left-handed is unearned and is more about happenstance. That's not to say Nadal would not be an excellent player if he played right-handed, just that he would be less effective, especially against Federer.

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

hawk eye said:
What's the relevance of that? It isn't like oh, Fed plays right so we gonna pounce his BH and therefore youy need to play leftie, Rafa.
They didn't even know Fed was a rightie by then.

Players come to the courts to compete with all their qualities and physical trademarks. Leftie or rightie is part of that.
Ivanisevic serve an NC Enroe serve where that effective largely because they were leftie. Does that make their achievements any less valuable?..

Um...but they knew 95% of tennis players are right-handed, didn't they? That's why they made the decision to have Nadal play left-handed instead of his natural right-handed. Every tennis player, whether right-handed or left-handed, knows that playing left-handed is a HUGE advantage in tennis. Even lefties don't like to play other lefties. Nobody does because everyone is so accustomed to playing righties so the lefty spins throws everyone off as well as hitting to the opposite side to get to their backhands.

Heck, when McEnroe was in his prime, many pundits stated that if McEnroe played right-handed, he'd be a perennial Slam quarterfinalist at best, and not a 7-time Slam champion. That's how much advantage McEnroe had, especially on his serves, by being lefty.

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

Andres said:
Djokovic has a better backhand than Federer.

End of thread.

Yes, he does. But if Nadal played right-handed, that wouldn't matter. Federer beats and almost beats Djokovic even though Djokovic has a better backhand, yet Nadal can't touch Djokovic.

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

Crisstti said:
So then what you actually think is that it's Nadal's effect on the ball that beats Fed, not the fact his left-handed.

Um...Nadal can only hit crosscourt forehands to Federer's backhand if Nadal plays lefty. If Nadal played righty, those same crosscourt forehands would go to Federer's forehand, which Federer would crush for winners. Only Nadal's crosscourt forehand is loopy and has so much spin and high-bouncing kick.

Crisstti said:
Nope, that's just a myth. Rafa used to hit a two handed FH, and when Toni got him to change it to a one handed FH, he says something along the lines that he noticed he seemed to have more control witnh his left hand. Plus, Rafa is left footed to play football.

When you write and pick your butt with your right hand, then you are naturally right-handed.

Even Nadal says he's right-handed.

Rippy · Sep 13, 2011

Crisstti said:
Exactly.

It's you and the OP who miss the point. Roger doesn't lose to Rafa simply because Rafa is lefty (as the OP suggests). ALL of Rafa's game bothers him.

I don't think the OP meant it was ONLY because Nadal is a lefty. If so, I disagree.

It's a combination of the topspin and the left-handedness. If Nadal was right-handed, he would pose nowhere near the same threat to Federer.

BreakPoint · Sep 13, 2011

Andres said:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4784958&postcount=15

Let me copy something I wrote a year ago. The stats may be a tad off now (a year later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Give it a rest BP. It's Nadal.

Edit:

68-24 minus 7-14 = 61-10
80-28 minus 8-17 = 72-11

Come on. Can't be more any more obvious than this. He only lost ONCE to a lefty player not named Nadal in the past 8 years. Who was it? Melzer? Cant remember.

Um...did I say anything about Federer having problems with lefties in general? Nope. That's not what this thread is about. It's about NADAL'S lefty CROSSCOURT FOREHAND to Federer's one-handed backhand. NO OTHER lefty has Nadal's lefty crosscourt forehand because he hits that buggy-whip reverse forehand with massive spin and massive high-bouncing kick. That shot works when he hits it to Federer's backhand, which Nadal does in 99% of the rallies when they play each other. It wouldn't work if hit to Federer's forehand, which is what would happen if Nadal played right-handed.

volleygirl · Sep 13, 2011

BreakPoint said:
Nadal is naturally right-handed but was made to play tennis left-handed by his Uncle Toni. Karlovic is naturally 6' 10".

SO WHAT? Ridiculous

Do we need any more proof that why Nadal beats Federer is because Nadal plays lefty?

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