Where does Serena Williams now rank all time
- Thread starter granddog29
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AngieB
Banned
Serena does take walkabouts sometimes during volatile matches that is for sure, but where is truly matters, at the GS events, she is 17-4 in grand slam singles finals.
Serena has an opportunity in the twilight of her career to closely reach her potential. I say this, because the extra years she has added to her career can make-up for the lean years in the mid 2000's. While she might not have reached her potential then, she is overachieving during a time in her career when she should be slowing down. Instead, she has played more matches than anyone else in the WTA this year.
The power of redemption. Its awesome!
AngieB
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Graf1stClass
Professional
indeed. steffi moved like a unicorn....
Graf1stClass
Professional
she has a losing record though. does graf has a losing record?
AngieB
Banned
Just an FYI, there was a reason they named an entire United States Tennis Center after Billie Jean King. It wasn't because she was the greatest tennis player of all time. It was because she was the greatest contributor to the advancement of women's athletics and the cause of equal rights. Her contributions went far beyond the sport of tennis and much greater than winning the most tennis matches or grand slam events.
AngieB
What are you talking about? They only played twice. There is no conclusion to be drawn from two matches.
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. Greatest of all time incorporates the person as a whole, not just their tennis skills. Being a positive role model, being a goodwill ambassador to the game of tennis... giving back to tennis more than what you've taken. That's where Billie Jean scores a lot of points.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Yes. Making the actual game possible so that other people can play and excel at it is quite underrated.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
None of her sociopolitical activities have any bearing her on her assessment as a player. Her player's accompishments are the only objective manner her ranking is considered.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
The International Tennis Hall of Fame inducts players as well as officials or other people who were important for the game. BJK is in that grey area - only occupied by her, I think - between being a great player and a great politician (not just ambassador) for the game. Of course they're different types of accomplishment, but I think she would still be a hall of famer if she'd won 0 Slams. What I think is unique about her (and should make us think twice when judging her) is that her sociopolitical activities are indissociably linked to the very possibility of there being a WTA at all. No objective manner of ranking any player's accomplishments would be possible had she not played the game.
Vanhool
Hall of Fame
PBS featured her on American Masters last week. It was really interesting. She was from the wrong side of the tracks and, even as a girl, she thought that it was wrong that so many people were excluded from tennis at that time due to race and class. When she later turned pro, and women were totally getting muscled out of tennis, she started the Virginia Soims tour that formed the foundation for the WTA. She busted her butt so hard those years she barely slept and some argue that she could have won even more slams if she did nothing (like Court)(she also didnt want to play Riggs, but felt she had to because Court screwed up so bad). I know you can't dwell on the what ifs for slam counts, but I never really thought about that...anyway her less than priveledged upbringing also led her to do work to encourage kids to play tennis. The WS often mention meeting her and being encouraged by her as children. Anyway, I almost didn't watch the documentary, but I'm glad I did. If anyone wants to see it, it's still online at pbs.org. Look under American Masters.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Interesting. Thank you. Although I might not be able to see it where I live. :neutral:
We owe Billy Jean King who is the founder of Women's Tennis Association (WTA). Tennis wouldn't be the same today without the WTA, which was able to expand the sport and popularity world wide.
Anyone who dishes King's contribution to tennis needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Anyone who dishes King's contribution to tennis needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Vanhool
Hall of Fame
Oh...I hope it works. Where do you live?
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. No one has done as much for tennis, both on and off the court, as Billie Jean King. A true lady of tennis.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Europe (but not U.K.).
"We're sorry, but this video is not available in your region due to right restrictions."
Damn.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
For once, I agree with you.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Let's just agree she's not in the GOAT female tennis debate but she's head and shoulders above all the other players in terms of the sport's legacy. Simply because without her there would be no legacy to talk about.
For example: it's hard not to answer "Billie Jean King" when the question is "who was the most influential tennis player?"
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
Serena does have an exceptional record in major finals, but you can also look at it the other way in that she is WAY behind Graf, Evert and Navratilova in final appearances. When Serena is playing well she is likely to win the tournament, but when she isn't she is far more likely to crash out earlier instead of gutting out those SF/F appearances.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Never thought about this. Interesting. I suppose (lack of) regularity will always be an argument against Serena's accomplishments.
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THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
No one is disregarding her sociopolitical accomplishments--the point is that its not how her status as a player is objectively judged, since her politics, thoughts or behavior are not her skill on the court (which was great in any case)
Vanhool
Hall of Fame
Bummer! I went on their website to see if there are other options, but none look fruitful for now. Apparently you can rent episodes on iTunes for $5 but this one is too new and unavailable. DVDs of past episodes are on Amazon.com, but again too new, also expensive. They say some of their programs are a available on Hulu.com, which has newer stuff, but you probably don't get that either even if they did have it....oh well. I guess it's not meant to be
I did find the trailer online and forgot about this part: when she was a kid or teen she already wanted equality for women in tennis and made being number 1 her goal so she would have the platform to make a difference. I envy people who so clearly have a purpose in life and are able to actualize it.
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
That statement supports my position that Serena is not as mentally tough as some other GOAT's. Spotty!! When Serena is there mentally, she is very difficult to beat. There for a few years she was more focused on her outfits than her opponent.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
Serena has played in 53 Grand Slams and missed 11 due to injury and family tragedy.
She has only lost in the First Round once, at the 2012 Roland Garros; and only once in 2 Round lost, at 1998 Australian Open.
She has 7 Third Round loses. So out of 53 Slams, only 9 times she didn’t make it to the 4th round. That’s 83% of the time she into the second week; not exactly “spotty”. And of the 16 years of competition, 6 of the years she didn’t win a Slam. To miss 11 chances to compete in a Slam but to have 17 Slams banked, I would call that "gutting" it out.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Well said; no matter how one tries to cut it, Serena is one of the greatest in almost every possible list.
AngieB
Banned
Could not have said it better. If it weren't for Billie Jean 40 years ago today, there is no telling what women's sports might look like today.
For everything the players enjoy today in the WTA, she could, but would never say, "I made you"
AngieB
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
I'm amazed at the assessment of Serena's mental toughness by "experts" on this thread. By Serena should been in good company; A certain Brooklyn Dodger from back in the day mental toughness was questioned too.
Where is Biz Markie when you need him?
Graf1stClass
Professional
What are *you* talking about?
She couldn't get a wining h2h over an aging Graf with injury afflictions and better priorities than tennis at this point.
She's behind Graf. Deal with it.
Incognito
Legend
Graf is 1-1 against a slamless GOATrena, deal with it.
Vanhool
Hall of Fame
Stop telling me what to do! Court Court Court!
Seriously, I almost mentioned Evert and Wade, but didn't because Evert was a kid and Wade is irrelevant in a GOAT thread. My main point was that with all the what if goat scenarios, I had never heard this one and I thought it was interesting. I shouldn't have mucked it up with Court. It's true that I do dislike her because of her bigoted politics (apparently my previous response was deleted because I was a little too emphatic about that), and because she was an embarrassment in that Riggs match. I'm sure that with hindsight, Martina and Chrissy wish they would have gone down under and snapped up some of those AOs. Not to say that Court wasn't a great player, but it still irks me to see her placed so highly. But what can you do? That's life.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
Is this the same Graf that won Roland Garros in 1999, the year she played Serena who was only on tour just less than 3 years when they played only twice?
Please find something else to hang your hat on.
She also was a Wimbledon finalist that year and was 29 years old not 35.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
But we make to believe that Graf was crippled and bedridden but found away to carry on.
If only Serena could fight back from injury....oh wait, she has. Does that count toward mental toughness?
granddog29
Banned
I fully agree with that. King was a great tennis player, an all time great; but on top of that contributed more to the sport of tennis and perhaps womens sports in general than anyone in history. That said an all time best tennis player ranking should be purely on tennis merit alone IMO, and in that sense Serena has far eclipsed King at this point. King herself would admit this. King even once said "the only way I would win a point against Serena or Venus if if they double faulted."
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
You know as little about baseball as you do tennis. Jackie Robinson was a true pioneer with unquestionable courage and "mental toughness"... who also was happened to be one of the best of all time.
To even compare Serena to Jackie is idiotic and disrespectful to both players. You should be banned from further posting until you educate yourself.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
Wow. Try learning a little history before lecturing others. Talk about someone with case of the Vapors.
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
LOL. Never seems to stop you.
Serena no pioneer. Billie Jean... Arthur Ashe....Yes! Serena....zip.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
It's Offical!
"Mr" Lob simply does not get it.
"Mr" Lob simply does not get it.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
....the way some think....
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, I agree. But, if you can put up with Hefty' s trolling posts, then so can I.
I will though have to kindly ask you to stop derailing, and to stay on topic.:shock:
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heftylefty
Hall of Fame
What's the matter Lob? You don't like it when your comments like “Serena being spotty” are so easily disproven just by using Google?
What don't you provide a definition of the word "spotty" because Serena getting to the second week of a Slam over 80% of the time is anything but "spotty".
What don't you provide a definition of the word "spotty" because Serena getting to the second week of a Slam over 80% of the time is anything but "spotty".
Vanhool
Hall of Fame
I don't agree with everything Mr. Lob has said, but I do agree that sometimes Serena's emotions get the better of her. Overall, she's extremely tough mentally, but there have been lapses. 2 jump to mind immediately: last year's FO where she was crying, and USO 09 where her anger cost her match point (she probably would have lost anyway, but she denied herself the chance). I don't hold it against her...to me it just means she's human.
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Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
Hefty, I could explain myself.... again, but what's the point. You and a few of your like closed minded friends only see what you want to see.
So instead of focusing on Mr. Lob, try to focus on the topic of discussion. :shock:
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
Close-minded. Project much?
If you don't like being challenged, just say so. But I have my doubts you could explain yourself on why you would call Serena "spotty" and hope to go unchallenged.
Mr.Lob
G.O.A.T.
I do enjoy yours and Angie's post Vancool. You know how to argue a counterpoint without being a jerk about it. You don't jump to irrational conclusions to fill some hidden agenda. A lot of radical jihadist tennis fans in here. A perceived slight to their favorite player is taken as a personal insult. Sheesh, get a life. :shock:
Do a search if you want, but one of the first threads I started, when I became a member, was one that was complimentary towards Serena. I asked if Serena' s game would be compared to those in top 100 men's. Everyone said no way, not even top 2,000 in men. I said what about her great serve? It's in the 130mph level, comparable to top men. I said what about her great court coverage and speed? Great depth and pace from forehand and backhand. I said what about her mental strength, which at times is great. Last post I admitted to giving Serena too much credit. But, overall theme was overly complimentary towards Serenas game. But, make one negative comment about someone's favorite player... and then your the spawn of Satan. LOL. No matter. Overall this is a really fun and informative forum. Tennis Warehouse rocks!
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
darrinbaker00
Professional
granddog29
Banned
Toughest competition would be Serena first, Evert second, Graf third, and Navratilova a very distant last. The 82-86 field which Navratilova won almost all her slams in and dominated was one of, if not the worst ever. Graf's competition was never more than good, and after the Seles stabbing mediocre. Evert faced a very tough field in the 70s and up to 81, when she won most of her slams. Serena faced the deepest womens field in history by far from 99-2007 so based on that alone she is first.
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