ACC tennis

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DaveKB

Rookie
JLyon said:
I think with the No-Ad scoring UVA could be upset maybe in the QF and on, but if straight up scoring, then UVA would take with no issues. The no-ad scoring brings in some added luck into the equation
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Perhaps you would care to explain why no ad scoring makes an upset by the underdog more likely than regular scoring. I tend to think the pressure will be on the underdog player and the opposite is true. Of course, maybe only 10% of the games go to deuce anyway, unless the players are very evenly matched and neither has a big serve, so 'no ad' will not really come into play all that often. In the quarters UVA will be a lot better team than any team we play. Maybe USC, UCLA, or UGA have a chance to beat us, but I see no one else with any chance.

BTW I much prefer the "one ad" scoring format meaning you have 40-40 and then one more deuce before one point decides it. It would not take much longer and it retains a little more tradition in scoring.
 
J

JLyon

Hall of Fame
DaveKB said:
Perhaps you would care to explain why no ad scoring makes an upset by the underdog more likely than regular scoring. I tend to think the pressure will be on the underdog player and the opposite is true. Of course, maybe only 10% of the games go to deuce anyway, unless the players are very evenly matched and neither has a big serve, so 'no ad' will not really come into play all that often. In the quarters UVA will be a lot better team than any team we play. Maybe USC, UCLA, or UGA have a chance to beat us, but I see no one else with any chance.

BTW I much prefer the "one ad" scoring format meaning you have 40-40 and then one more deuce before one point decides it. It would not take much longer and it retains a little more tradition in scoring.
Click to expand...

It adds luck because could an ill-timed Double Fault, Lucky net cord, Receiver could get lucky and nail a return. One and done versus giving the player another chance to fight to stay in the game.

There is a reason you see many more 6-5 sets (Tie-breaks with the No-Ad scoring)
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
JLyon said:
It adds luck because could an ill-timed Double Fault, Lucky net cord, Receiver could get lucky and nail a return. One and done versus giving the player another chance to fight to stay in the game.

There is a reason you see many more 6-5 sets (Tie-breaks with the No-Ad scoring)
Click to expand...

The logic is pretty simple when you consider the extreme case. If you had to play a match against Djokovic, would you rather it be a single point, or a full length match? I think your odds of winning are better for a single point match.

If you had to play a match against Djokovic, would you rather have it be a single point, or a single game that starts with a score of deuce? A less extreme example, but my answer is still: a single point.
 
D

DaveKB

Rookie
JLyon said:
It adds luck because could an ill-timed Double Fault, Lucky net cord, Receiver could get lucky and nail a return. One and done versus giving the player another chance to fight to stay in the game.

There is a reason you see many more 6-5 sets (Tie-breaks with the No-Ad scoring)
Click to expand...


It may add some luck to both guys' games, but not much. As I said only 10% or so games go to deuce anyway. It also completely takes away the retrievers and usually less talented guy's advantage when the only way he can win is to wear down the big serving better player with multiple deuce games and making it into a 3/4 hour match. UVA's Mitchell Frank is really a retriever or grinder supreme. He wants to outlast the other guys. I think no ad hurts his game a lot. OTOH it helps Domijan who hates long matches due to his relative lack of mobility.

You say there are lot more 6-5 sets as opposed to what type of sets in regular scoring? There is no way to know about there actually being more 6-5 sets as there has been little experience with no ad. I believe you are wrong about that, because those sets would gone to 7-6 anyway.

I think 'no ad' favors the big server with the big game and in fact makes it much less likely a lesser guy can pull off an upset. Guys with big serves already win 75%/80% of their games. I think the percentage will go up with no ad scoring, because the big guy can play harder early and not worry about saving his energy for a 3/4 hour match.

Clark tries to make the point with a one point match against Djokovic. If it was that then maybe, but it isn't just one point for all the marbles. He seems to think that the lesser player will win more deuce games with no ad scoring, than he would with regular scoring. I do not know how he knows that. He seem to think that the lesser player will play better than normal on the no ad point, whereas I think he will be 'choking' on the no ad point, especially if it is a tight match and he is about to pull the big upset.

We will never know the answer to the lucky shot/net cord issue, but I think it is certain it does not help the retriever types who need long matches in order to win.
 
T

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
I agree with ClarkC and JLyon's view on the NoAd scoring being an "equilizer" of sorts and making UVa more ripe for an upset than they would otherwise be if regular scoring was being used.

DaveKB, I'm sorry, but I would be really suprised if more than 10% of the posters who post in this forum would agree with your logic on this particular point.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
DaveKB said:
Clark tries to make the point with a one point match against Djokovic. If it was that then maybe, but it isn't just one point for all the marbles. He seems to think that the lesser player will win more deuce games with no ad scoring, than he would with regular scoring. I do not know how he knows that. He seem to think that the lesser player will play better than normal on the no ad point, whereas I think he will be 'choking' on the no ad point, especially if it is a tight match and he is about to pull the big upset.
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No, I don't think the lesser player will play better on the no-ad point. I just think that if the better player is winning 55% of points (and most tennis matches have this kind of margin; even a 6-2, 6-2 match will see the winner with 60% of the points or less), but the lesser player is having a decent streak of 50% points to get to deuce, then the better player would like to see more points to get the percentages back to normal. I have seen many games where the lesser player fought like heck to pressure one service game of the better player, in a set where the better player has never been pushed to deuce on his serve before that game. The better player just has to split points for a while to settle things down before winning two in a row to hold off the lesser player (with normal scoring). With no-ad, there is no time to settle things down, even if you are the better player. You have to win the next point or else.

I used to see this pattern with Andy Roddick: holds serve easily, game after game, but then has that one game where his first serve percentage is low (it happens to everyone) and the rest of his game was not good enough to avoid the service break, and then there goes the whole set. Not just against Nadal, Federer, et al., but in his upset losses as well. (Happens to Isner sometimes these days, also.) Both players sense when one of those games is happening, and both feel the pressure, but Andy knew he only had to keep winning half the points in order to put himself in position to finally hit two big serves in a row and escape the game with a service hold. Put him at no-ad 40-40 in a game where his first serve percentage has plummeted, and I think he gets broken 50% of the time in those games.
 
K

Kirijax

Hall of Fame
The junior tournaments over here used the no-ad format in the past and it really was a game of luck. If the game got to 40-40, it was anyone's guess who would win the point. If we were the underdogs, I felt my team had a much better chance of grabbing a lucky win with the no-ad format than without. That being said, we haven't used it for a few years and I don't miss it one bit.
 
D

duke1414

New User
Nicolas Alvarez up to #22 in the world junior rankings. Just destroyed Logan Smith in the Semi's of Inka. Would be #1 recruit in America on tennisrecruiting.net

Duke has a chance at a title next year WOW
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
duke1414 said:
Nicolas Alvarez up to #22 in the world junior rankings. Just destroyed Logan Smith in the Semi's of Inka. Would be #1 recruit in America on tennisrecruiting.net

Duke has a chance at a title next year WOW
Click to expand...

Logan Smith is a very good player (#3 blue chip in the 11th grade class right now). He often loses to the older blue chips (10-8 record against fellow blue chips over the last twelve months), and Alvarez is a year older.

Alvarez will be a big addition to Duke and should replace the graduating Fred Saba. Then you add the younger Redlicki, who is even better in doubles than he is in singles, and perhaps Chris Mengel is able to recover from surgery and get back in form, and Duke will be better next year than this year. Maybe a title contender, but at least a top ten team again. There will be players who don't make their top six in singles who will be very good.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Wake Forest and NCSU represented the ACC well yesterday. Miami and Florida State pretty much performed as expected in their losses, with Miami perhaps surprising a little by almost beating Texas Tech. Duke was the big disappointment. They will spread bad computer rankings throughout the whole conference all year due to their pathetic showing in the non-conference portion of the season.
 
D

duke1414

New User
ClarkC said:
Logan Smith is a very good player (#3 blue chip in the 11th grade class right now). He often loses to the older blue chips (10-8 record against fellow blue chips over the last twelve months), and Alvarez is a year older.

Alvarez will be a big addition to Duke and should replace the graduating Fred Saba. Then you add the younger Redlicki, who is even better in doubles than he is in singles, and perhaps Chris Mengel is able to recover from surgery and get back in form, and Duke will be better next year than this year. Maybe a title contender, but at least a top ten team again. There will be players who don't make their top six in singles who will be very good.
Click to expand...

Alvarez is ranked higher by 30+ spots then even Rubin, he will have a chance to be special.

Doubles:
Red and red
Bruno and Alvarez
Tahir and Mengel

Singles:
Red
Alvarez
Tahir
Bruno
Red
Hemmeler
Levine

That is a top 5 team and would only lose Tahir off that team year after
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
duke1414 said:
Alvarez is ranked higher by 30+ spots then even Rubin, he will have a chance to be special.
Click to expand...

Foreign recruits almost always play more ITF tournaments than American recruits, which makes ITF rankings not a good comparison between foreign and American players. Give UVa Noah Rubin, and you can have Alvarez and we will both be happy.
 
D

duke1414

New User
ClarkC said:
Foreign recruits almost always play more ITF tournaments than American recruits, which makes ITF rankings not a good comparison between foreign and American players. Give UVa Noah Rubin, and you can have Alvarez and we will both be happy.
Click to expand...

Is that where Rubin is leaning? Wiersholm is a nice pick up over Duke as well. Alvarez and Red is a serious class, not sure if they are done but with Mengel back I would think two is all they will have
 
T

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
Notre Dame has looked pretty good at the Indoors this weekend, giving UVa a pretty good match and then taking MSU to the woodshed. UVa should take the top spot, but should be an interesting battle for 2nd between UNC, Duke, and ND.
 
H

Hmmmmm

Rookie
tennis_tater said:
Notre Dame has looked pretty good at the Indoors this weekend, giving UVa a pretty good match and then taking MSU to the woodshed. UVa should take the top spot, but should be an interesting battle for 2nd between UNC, Duke, and ND.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Wake Forest. Very competitive for second place and, hard to believe, UVA might even get a loss.
 
C

Clemson_tennis

Legend
How the ACC looks so far:

1. Virginia
2. Notre Dame - been the really standout team so far this year. I don't think anyone expected this from the Irish. Gave Virginia a very good match and routined some good teams as well this year.
3. Duke - Looking pretty good in life after Cunha. This #3 ranking is temporary though because they very well could drop some ACC matches this year.
4. Wake Forest - Looking pretty solid overall, nothing special though.
5. North Carolina - A little disappointing thus far. Getting EHO back in full health will help a lot and leave them not as exposed through depth. Could rise in these rankings.
6. Clemson- Things looked a little down after the whooping from Illinois but the team has responded well plus it has not hurt that Illinois has looked very good since then. The team looks to have barely missed a beat after losing Yannick Maden and Meza. The new players looking solid.
7. NC State - Nick Horton has been a letdown so far but the rest of the team has been doing pretty well. Norenius will be a very good back of the line-up player which will keep them in matches. Weigel is a wildcard
8. Georgia Tech - Much improved from a year ago. No longer giving away points at #6 and things are not as bad up front as expected.
9. Virginia Tech - Hard team to figure out. Sometimes look sharp and sometimes they look poor. The loss to Penn State may not be as bad as originally thought though
10. Florida State - Haven't looked very good so far. Yet to get a solid win. Missing Benjamin Lock has been hurting the Noles and they will probably need him back if they want to move up in the ACC this year.
11. Miami - I don't see anyway for them to win an ACC game outside of BC this year
12. Boston College - absolutely dire. Lost to Monmouth.
 
Last edited:
H

Hmmmmm

Rookie
Clemson_tennis said:
yet another who thinks Wake Forest will beat Virginia.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean that I thought Wake would beat Virginia, but I think one of those four might. Notre Dame and Wake play Virginia at Virginia, so that's a tough ask. UNC and Duke play Virginia at home, and of those two teams I would put money on UNC. Virginia would definitely be up for Duke since it's televised and Duke, at times, seems they have their head up their *** as this recent screw up demonstrates.
 
C

chris-swede

Hall of Fame
ACC looking very very solid this season from top to bottom ..ehm..from top to 10...
i do not think anyone can beat UVA, Notre Dame maybe has a chance, but only a little one
Clemson looks very competitive
Wake has Bogaerts on one
UNC has dissappointed so far but this team has a lot of talent
Vtech is allways solid in normal ways
 
C

chris-swede

Hall of Fame
this no.1 play of east carolina seems to be great.

new rankings:
3) UVA
10) notre Dame, i fear they ve peaked now
16) Duke
20) WF
21) Clemson
23) UNC
27) Nc State, ve the feeling this is too high
38) FSU, have to proove it now
40) VTech
42) Gtech
62) Miami, hmm
Boston is unranked, for all reasons.
 
C

Clemson_tennis

Legend
Georgia Tech at Florida State tomorrow should be a very interesting tilt.

If Lock is back than FSU should win. However GT can certainly win this match. These are two teams going in different directions right now.
 
C

chris-swede

Hall of Fame
here are my ACC Rankings after this weekend, where ACC play staredt

1. Virginia, clear no.1, so long as any school proves to be No.1

2. Notre Dame , really solid this year, with only 3 losses vs good teams, gave OSU a good fight

3. Duke - do not know if they should be 2 or 3, the Elon loss still hangs as a dark cloud over them, they beat Illinois at home, Notre Dame lost on the road to Illinois.
.
4. North Carolina - they ve only lost at Duke

5. Wake Forest - have not done too much, to get into this place, have some solid wins, beat Lville this weekend

6. Clemson- had the chance to jump up here but lost vs Boise and the Princeton win was too close in my opinion to really put them up

7. NC State - still not trust in this team, and they lost at Nwestern now 2-5. Otherwise, the wins vs VCU, Michigan , Indiana look better as long as the season goes on. Nick Horton is not playing right now. Any ideas?

now a comes a result and talent dropoff for the rest of the ACC teams

8. Florida State - They beat Gtech very easy..so the jump up to 8. Huge game vs Florida coming up on Wednesday. This team is not settled right now..but they even can make a run on NC State or teams like Clemson/ Wake Forest

9. Virginia Tech - they lost to Lville, where other ACC teams won, that tells the story, but they gave Oklahoma on the road a little fight, thats interesting

10. Georgia Tech - They lost pretty easy at FSU, so they fall down to 10 now. Clear things.

11. Miami - they barely survived North Florida....

12. Boston College - crappiest team all acc
 
C

Clemson_tennis

Legend
ACC in the new rankings

6 Notre Dame
10 Virginia
12 North Carolina
17 Duke
19 Wake Forest
21 Clemson
24 NC State
36 Florida State
44 Virginia Tech
46 Georgia Tech
Miami
Boston College
 
C

Clemson_tennis

Legend
FSU at Florida will be interesting today. Florida beat the Noles quite easily last year but both teams were quite a bit different. Florida is the favorite here again. FSU's strength is depth yet Florida counters that with good depth of their own. The Gators also have a more solid #1 than Cotrone, who this year has not been able to beat anybody ranked above him.

I'll go with Florida 5-2. FSU can take doubles and maybe get a win at 3 from CGM.
 
TopDawg

TopDawg

G.O.A.T.
They moved the match up to 3:30 due to bad weather and will play indoors on the 3 courts so it could go for a while.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
chris-swede said:
this no.1 play of east carolina seems to be great.

new rankings:
3) UVA
10) notre Dame, i fear they ve peaked now
16) Duke
20) WF
21) Clemson
23) UNC
27) Nc State, ve the feeling this is too high
38) FSU, have to proove it now
40) VTech
42) Gtech
62) Miami, hmm
Boston is unranked, for all reasons.
Click to expand...


If you are a 5.0 player, can you make the team and play on Boston team ? and even get scholarship
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Boston College does not have scholarships for men's tennis, which is why they are always at the bottom of the ACC.
 
D

DaveKB

Rookie
ClarkC said:
Boston College does not have scholarships for men's tennis, which is why they are always at the bottom of the ACC.
Click to expand...

Do you know why? Lack of scholarship money? It is very strange that any D1 schools would try to compete in a sport without at least some scholarship help.

As you already know, but others may not, until about 12 to 15 years ago UVA did not fully fund the maximum allowed NCAA scholarships in several of its non revenue sports, including men's tennis, and it paid it coaches lower than most schools. IMO it was the primary reason why UVA was never very good in men's tennis. UNC, Clemson, Duke had "always" been the ACC tennis powers and they did fully fund the maximum allowable men's tennis scholarships. I am nearly certain that UVA gave no men's tennis scholarships until the 1970's or maybe the early 1980's and then it added one and then another as money became available. In Virginia the state cannot fund athletic scholarships, so it must all be raised via private donations to UVA's athletic scholarship fund, which is why it took so long to fully fund tennis scholarships.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Funds are not abundant at Boston College, and then there is Title IX to worry about. Adding 4.5 men's tennis scholarships would probably require adding 4.5 women's scholarships somewhere else, and if all the women's sports they offer are already fully funded, then they would have to add a sport, which is a lot more expensive than adding 4.5 women's scholarships.
 
D

DaveKB

Rookie
ClarkC said:
Funds are not abundant at Boston College, and then there is Title IX to worry about. Adding 4.5 men's tennis scholarships would probably require adding 4.5 women's scholarships somewhere else, and if all the women's sports they offer are already fully funded, then they would have to add a sport, which is a lot more expensive than adding 4.5 women's scholarships.
Click to expand...

I agree, but why not just drop men's tennis, as they still have to pay for travel and coaches. They cannot win a single ACC match and will lose most 7-0 scores, so why bother?

I am not sure how many D1 men's tennis schools there are, but aren't there 250 to 300? How many of these schools give scholarship money and are they giving the maximum 4.5 scholarships allowed?

I still think that all of this format 'stuff' is being driven by $$$. I think many AD's know that tennis is a losing proposition money wise, so some are looking for $$$. If you count the 4.5 scholarship costs and coaching and travel, a men's tennis team probably costs a minimum of $500,000 and some big time schools probably are spending $750,000+ with almost zero revenues coming in.

I doubt tennis will ever get much in revenues, but isn't ESP3 paying something for these tennis days? Maybe these conference networks can televise some matches and make a little money. Unless you are in a major FB conference with all of that TV money and gate receipts, funding minor sports is tough to do and the temptation to cut some must still be a realistic possibility. Men's tennis is likely competing with swimming, wrestling, golf, track and field, etc. to avoid getting the ax at many non Power 5 conference schools.
 
TopDawg

TopDawg

G.O.A.T.
Clemson_tennis said:
FSU at Florida will be interesting today. Florida beat the Noles quite easily last year but both teams were quite a bit different. Florida is the favorite here again. FSU's strength is depth yet Florida counters that with good depth of their own. The Gators also have a more solid #1 than Cotrone, who this year has not been able to beat anybody ranked above him.



I'll go with Florida 5-2. FSU can take doubles and maybe get a win at 3 from CGM.
Click to expand...


Looks like Florida will win 5-2 with CGM winning at 3.
 
C

Clemson_tennis

Legend
FSU loses to Florida 5-2. Florida did not even have Piro playing today. Not a good sign for FSU. It would be very helpful for FSU if Lock could come back because it will be very tough for Davis to win any matches at #2 and CGM and Nunez would both be a lot more effective one more spot lower. Close matches is not a speciality of Rinaldi.
 
K

Kirijax

Hall of Fame
Clemson_tennis said:
FSU loses to Florida 5-2. Florida did not even have Piro playing today. Not a good sign for FSU. It would be very helpful for FSU if Lock could come back because it will be very tough for Davis to win any matches at #2 and CGM and Nunez would both be a lot more effective one more spot lower. Close matches is not a speciality of Rinaldi.
Click to expand...

I thought FSU would be a bit better this year. What's wrong with Lock? I missed the memo.
 
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