Dropping monsters in mixed doubles?

If you can drop bombs like WW2 do you just lay the goods on the table in mixed doubles at 4.0 level? Even if the lady is standing to close in to where you could nail her with your massive blast of serve? #Scared to unleash on the ladies.

Nope.

Depends. If a competitive match like USTA, yes i will play my best including hitting hard balls. If a social match, then no.

I was interested in this thread as I have my first ever 40 and over 7.0 mixed doubles match this weekend and don't really know what to expect. I remember intimidation was a factor when I played collegiate doubles "back in the day."

Not quite a 4.0, but have played against 4.5 females in mixed, & I hit as hard as I can. If she's a 3.5, then I try different serves, & don't try and kill it. I guess I observe their ability & adjust accordingly, but I find the 4.5 ladies are more than adapt at handling a strong serve with a bunting block return.

Depends on the player's on the court.
I've encountered both men (rare) and women at the 9.0 mixed level, whose net game, can't handle hard hit return from say a weak 2nd serve (and I'm a little guy, so I'm not hitting like a 6'+ guy that unleashes a fh)... so i don't try to go at them... but if they're moving alot, looking to poach, then seems like fair game.
In the past if a guy is hitting 2nd serve sitters, I'll usually give their partner a heads up, that if he keeps serving like that, it's inviting the net person to get drilled (ie. my best shot to select is at the net person)

As part of prematch warmup (if I have time and I haven't played with my partner), I'll often end by progressively upping the pace at my partner at the net (me at the baseline) so she gets used to it...

blakesq said:

Depends. If a competitive match like USTA, yes i will play my best including hitting hard balls. If a social match, then no.

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Exactly, and depends on the score too.
If I 'feel bad' about dropping bombs down the T, I'll just kick it out wide on the women to save some of my own dignity. Pretty sure wide kicks are still acceptable on the ladies.

If she's the cheatin' type, then it's bombs away!

Got it. Thanks. Seems like bombs at the guy and wide kickers to the ladies is acceptable.

nytennisaddict said:

Depends on the player's on the court.
I've encountered both men (rare) and women at the 9.0 mixed level, whose net game, can't handle hard hit return from say a weak 2nd serve (and I'm a little guy, so I'm not hitting like a 6'+ guy that unleashes a fh)... so i don't try to go at them... but if they're moving alot, looking to poach, then seems like fair game.
In the past if a guy is hitting 2nd serve sitters, I'll usually give their partner a heads up, that if he keeps serving like that, it's inviting the net person to get drilled (ie. my best shot to select is at the net person)

As part of prematch warmup (if I have time and I haven't played with my partner), I'll often end by progressively upping the pace at my partner at the net (me at the baseline) so she gets used to it...

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Lol, missed the "serve" part...
Ironically the ladies 4.0-4.5 I play with find it easier to return (block) the flat serve to the body, than a kicker...

backtothebasics said:

Scared to unleash on the ladies.

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It is illegal too

nytennisaddict said:

Lol, missed the "serve" part...
Ironically the ladies 4.0-4.5 I play with find it easier to return (block) the flat serve to the body, than a kicker...

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This. In mixed (8.0), I find that women more often have a difficult time returning kick serves than hard, flat ones. I guess you just don't see that kind of serve in 4.0 women's tennis, but whatever, I skip the power for spin not to take it easy, but because it's usually as effective or more. In fact, after our last mixed practice, my partner said she wanted us to book some time so that I can hit kick serves at her so that she can get used to that.

You can't win at mixed doubles. You either suck or you're a jerk. Pick which one you want to be.

PhxRacket said:

I was interested in this thread as I have my first ever 40 and over 7.0 mixed doubles match this weekend and don't really know what to expect. I remember intimidation was a factor when I played collegiate doubles "back in the day."

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How does someone end up playing 7.0 doubles after having played collegiate tennis?

Serving flat bombs can help intimidate, but in my experience, women tend to have a harder time with good kick/twist serves more. It's just not something they normally face in recreational women's tennis.

beernutz said:

How does someone end up playing 7.0 doubles after having played collegiate tennis?

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lol. He might be able to intimidate....

beernutz said:

How does someone end up playing 7.0 doubles after having played collegiate tennis?

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That is a good question. Ironically, owing to the thirty year gap in playing (1985-2015) I was initially rated a 3.5, but I felt that was too low so I rated myself 4.0-still think it may be too low, but from what I have been told, time away, age and the fact that I never played DI or DII may explain my lower rating. I cannot match the game of Open players as I have seen Open level tennis recently. I hope that I can keep up at 4.0.

Take the time to work on your other serves, no harm done if it's a social match.

PhxRacket said:

That is a good question. Ironically, owing to the thirty year gap in playing (1985-2015) I was initially rated a 3.5, but I felt that was too low so I rated myself 4.0-still think it may be too low, but from what I have been told, time away, age and the fact that I never played DI or DII may explain my lower rating. I cannot match the game of Open players as I have seen Open level tennis recently. I hope that I can keep up at 4.0.

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4.0 is good. Your profile puts you around 50 years old and former D3 or lower level player. I've played lots of guys over 35 who played college or were ranked juniors at 4.0 level. Only reservation is if you played line 1 for good D3 and won 75% of the time or more. Then, you are likely going to be better suited for 4.5 level.

Back on topic, in competitive match; play to win including serving with pace or kick. I don't try to hit the female but I play with lots of 4.5 women and I don't cut them any slack in competitive matches. I would and do play the same way against 4.0 women. Guys above are correct though about serving with spin. Even 4.5 women struggle with spin serves and do better against pace where they can take a step back and just block it. I would guess that less than 10% of the women even at 4.5 level serve with relatively high spin rate so they just don't see it until mixed season.

I did a spin serve on an old lady in one mixed match, and she had no idea where the ball was going, and the ball spun up and hit her right in the eye. Luckily it was probably only a 70 mph serve.

PhxRacket said:

I hope that I can keep up at 4.0.

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I'm confident that an ex-college forehand used to intimidation will be a match for a 3.0 woman in mixed.

If you're losing and all your serves get returned, you gotta UP your game, eh?

Just returned from Spain where I played mixed doubles in a Grade 1 tournament (the ITF equivalent of a USTA national tournament) in the O45s. There were really only two unwritten rules: (1) no blast serves to the female (a kicker of any height or velocity was fine), and (2) no blasters at the female in close quarters. Otherwise, it was anything goes. For example, hard approach shots and passing shots from the baseline to the female were fine. Fortunately I had a very good partner so we made it to the semis... where we were blitzed by (essentially) the O45 world champions (they beat the ITF #1 ranked team in the final).

If it feels right, go for it. She's there to compete, so she should be ready for whatever comes her way. Obviously being an ass like trying to go for pegs, or blasting flat serves when you're up a set and 2 breaks, etc. isn't acceptable, but if its a highly contested match I see no problem treating the girl just like you would any other player (except for pegs maybe).
This is of course for a competitive match, if its social, then no, just kick the serve in and play a little easier on her.

i try not to pass gas on the court

Listen up, TT 4.0 men with lethal serves. There is no 4.0 woman who is a match for the scud missiles you are launching.

Do not bring the heat. No, no, no. You might kill her. To be a proper gentleman, give the little lady no more than she can handle.

You're gonna want to serve like a drowsy kitten.

Got it?

Social matches...no. I would try to kick serves in only.

League matches...I feel I owe my partner an obligation to try my best. So I would hit flat bombs on important points, but not body serves.

Sanctioned tournaments...I mostly play singles, but I envision myself to act the same way as I would in league matches.

All of this is assuming the lady can't grill my serves back at me. If she can handle the pace, then I will throw any serve at her.

Cindysphinx said:

Listen up, TT 4.0 men with lethal serves. There is no 4.0 woman who is a match for the scud missiles you are launching.

Do not bring the heat. No, no, no. You might kill her. To be a proper gentleman, give the little lady no more than she can handle.

You're gonna want to serve like a drowsy kitten.

Got it?

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In seriousness, how do you feel about a male player with a fairly big serve just asking you outright at the beginning of a match whether you'd like him to serve the ball hard to you?

Cindysphinx said:

TT 4.0 men with lethal serves.

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This is an oxymoron, right?

navigator said:

This is an oxymoron, right?

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In fairness, there's no such thing as a 7.0 with a lethal serve either, assuming he holds on to his racket. It's a tennis ball; it hits you, you mean mug the other guy and play on.

I was at a practice for my 8.0 mixed team last night and I actually hit the opposing woman with a kick serve. She tried to run around her forehand and the ball kicked to the left and hit her in the shoulder. That's why I hit kick serves in mixed instead of hard flat bombs.

I get somewhat of a kick out of watching mixed at the us open and WTT and really don't see the women struggling as much as I'd expect with the men's serve. Got a chance to talk with Taylor townsand after an evening of bob Bryan's serves and she thought she did fine. (I just nodded in agreement but it looked to me he ate her up.)

Any lady who steps on the court does so with the belief they can beat you. So I say, bomb away, show her the respect by trying to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses and make for a more interesting and competitive game. If you dont play your best, that increases the chances you'll lose. If your opponent turns out to be extremely uncoordinated, and gets hurt because of a simple serve, then maybe theyve made a mistake. Playing at the wrong level possibly.

All of that goes out the window though if youre playing against a little old lady on a social doubles night. I used to always play against an old couple when I was a newbie, I'd try to give her as easy a time as possible while still trying to beat them. Didnt want to be lower on the foood chain than them. At least the guy on their team could handle pace, and play well.

Interesting to see the perspective. Anything that is a sanctioned tournament is all out. Serve whatever your best is to whoever is returning. No brainer. I don't sign up for a tournament because I want to make friends. If you were playing two men and one was much weaker then you're going to pick on the weak player. Same strategy in mixed. Same thing happens at the pro level.

If it's a league or tournament, all bets are off. If it's a friendly then I'm not that invested on stomping on the female player with big serves or whatnot.

Once played a mixed paired with a partner who was scrappy but she struggled against stronger opponents. We played a team where the guy was a decent 4.0/4.5 and the woman was a former D1 player but older. The female player hit bigger serves than all of us. She s&v'd, had kickers, etc. I played and served to her like usual, no easing up. They targeted my partner mercilessly. Breaking their serves were tough and my holds were critical but in the end we lost handily to them.

I dropped a deuce once and it wasn't well received.

Kick and slice is the way.

Cowboyardee said:

In seriousness, how do you feel about a male player with a fairly big serve just asking you outright at the beginning of a match whether you'd like him to serve the ball hard to you?

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i would feel that he is a tool and a pinhead.

J_R_B said:

I was at a practice for my 8.0 mixed team last night and I actually hit the opposing woman with a kick serve. She tried to run around her forehand and the ball kicked to the left and hit her in the shoulder. That's why I hit kick serves in mixed instead of hard flat bombs.

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i have seen federer hit by a serve when trying to run around.

happens to the best of us.

I would gauge both opponents and adjust accordingly, independent of gender: if they can handle my best, I'm going to go for it. If they've never seen a kick serve before, I'm going to dial it back.

The unspoken idea of "I can hit bombs to the lower-level guy because he's a guy and will just suck it up but I can't hit bombs to a lower-level woman because she's a delicate flower" is a bunch of horse puckey, IMO. I've played many years of mixed 6 volleyball where the guys do all of the hitting and blocking and the girls do most of the digging. When guys go up to hit, they don't discriminate who is on the other end of their spike. And I'm not talking about the wimpy, high arcing, "spikes" you see in beer commercials. I'm talking about ex-college players who can get their entire arm over an 8' net and crush the ball straight down in front of the 10' line and bounce the ball up to the ceiling. Almost every girl I've played with can take the heat. I suppose it's natural selection: those that can't take the heat never made it to the top level.

Am I mistaken to transfer the same philosophy to MXDs? This is foreign territory to me; the few times I've played MXD my partner could take the heat as well as dish it out.

Curious. That doesnt seem to make sense to me. could i ask why?

Cindysphinx said:

i would feel that he is a tool and a pinhead.

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To me, as a man who has played tennis for ~15 years, the subject of gender as it relates to tennis is one that continues to fascinate/trouble me.

My wife and I took up the sport precisely because it is one of the few sports in which men and women can play together, as part of a team. We played volleyball for awhile, which also qualified in this respect, but as we reached our 30s we felt like we no longer fit in all that well with the volleyball crowd - most of whom were in their early 20s. So, we switched to tennis.

Despite tennis being a sport in which men and women can play with and against each other, I've come to believe more and more over the years that there is a strong undercurrent of sexism that is increasingly difficult for me to ignore. This discussion is an example of that. (No offense to the OP, or anyone who has posted. I don't mean that anyone is intentionally being sexist. The purpose of the original question was clearly to determine mores of etiquette, but the premise of the discussion - whether women should be treated the same as men - is incontrovertibly sexist.)

The answer, of course, is you, as a man, should treat a woman the same way you would treat a man.

• If, in a recreational men's doubles match you take it a little easier on an opposing player who doesn't play at the same level you do, then if you are playing a mixed match and the opposing woman meets that same criteria, then go ahead and take it a little easier on her too.
• If, in a men's USTA league match or tournament, you do whatever you can (within the rules, of course) to win the match, up to and including picking on the weaker opponent, then you should do the same in a mixed match.

Personally, I believe it's time for a change in the NTRP rating system. I posted a poll a few years back on this topic, and while the poll was poorly worded, it appears that at a ratio of about 4:1 tennis players would prefer a gender-neutral rating system. By that I mean a rating system that is entirely based on tennis outcomes. If player A has about an even record playing against players who are rated 3.0, then Player A should be rated 3.0 - regardless of whether Player A is a man or a woman, and regardless of the gender of the players he/she played. Evidently TenCap has created just such a rating system, but for it to really work I think the USTA would have to adopt/promote something.

Among the advantages to such a system would be a (probably gradual) reduction in sexist attitudes - at least in respect to the sport of tennis.

Imagine never again having to think about things like:

• How should I play to the woman in a MxD match? (The tennis playing ability of everyone on the opposite side of the court is roughly equal to yours, so you better play your best or you will likely lose.)
• Is it ok to have a woman sub for me in my men's Tuesday night 3.5 club league? (If she's rated 3.5, then "Yes." Then again, you might very well no longer have a "men's" Tuesday night league, but rather simply a Tue night 3.5 league.)
• Is it ok to have a man sub for me in my women's Tue night 4.0 club league? (See above)

And imagine how many more potential opponents you could have - particularly if you are a currently high-rated woman or low-rated man. 4.5 women in a lot of areas are likely relegated to playing the same 10-30 women all year. And for those who work, there might not be any evening leagues available at all. Move to a gender-neutral system though, and those women could play with like-skilled men - opening up more playing opportunities.

Similarly, 2.5 rated men might not be able to find a lot of playing partners. What if they could play in leagues with women who are currently rated 3.0-3.5?

Sorry to steal the thread, but the more I think about this, and the more I see discussions like this, the more sense a gender-neutral rating system seems to make. I suppose I'm hoping enough other tennis players begin to feel the same way and maybe the USTA will actually recognize the groundswell and make the change.

IMO, it's way past time to do so.

Mercy is never sexist. I may choose to have mercy on a woman in a case where I may not choose to have mercy on a man.

Failing to execute perfect equality is only sexist in cases where a particular response is an obligation. By definition, mercy is a free choice rather than an obligation, so the uneven application of mercy is not sexist.

I am more likely to give money to a homeless woman that a homeless man. That isn't sexist either.

Cowboyardee said:

Curious. That doesnt seem to make sense to me. could i ask why?

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Because only a tool or a pinhead would walk onto a court for a league or tournament match and ask his opponents if they are up to the task.

It is insulting.

It is obnoxious.

I hope you are kidding.

Tr

MathGeek said:

Mercy is never sexist. I may choose to have mercy on a woman in a case where I may not choose to have mercy on a man.

Failing to execute perfect equality is only sexist in cases where a particular response is an obligation. By definition, mercy is a free choice rather than an obligation, so the uneven application of mercy is not sexist.

I am more likely to give money to a homeless woman that a homeless man. That isn't sexist either.

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Treating similarly situated people differently solely because of gender is sexist.

Are you more likely to give a raise to your female employee rather than your male employee, all else equal? If so, you are being sexist.

If you were the governor and had the power to have mercy and grant clemency, would you think it sexist to do this based on gender? If so, I think that would be sexist.

Nothing "soft" comes off my racquet intentionally when I play a match. Whether its regular doubles or mixed doubles.

When my opponents walk on the court I see them as equals and I believe they want to beat me given the chance.

If my opponent doesn't like the hard flat serve or the kicker that pushes them backwards than that's not my problem. Figure out how to hit it back or don't play.

Cindysphinx said:

Treating similarly situated people differently solely because of gender is sexist.

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I only date women. Does that make me sexist?

One can exercise personal preferences without being sexist.

Sexism is only an issue when there is an obligation to treat people equally. Is there an obligation to for a man to date men as well as women?

Is there an obligation to treat people in whom one will never have a romantic interest the same as those for whom it is a possibility, however remote?

Played my first mixed 4.0 doubles tournament in a year this past weekend.

I was supposed to play 4.5 mens doubles but draw did not make and director called me asking if I would play with a woman looking for a partner.

We met 5 minutes before our first match. She was a singles player whos draw did not make either. She told me she never plays doubles and had only played 1 mixed match prior in her life.

With a new partner who plays singles and it being a tournament I knew I could not go out there and screw around.

All women got my full serve, no laying off even for a single point.

We won the tournament I'd like to think that my serve played a big role in it

cknobman said:

With a new partner who plays singles and it being a tournament I knew I could not go out there and screw around.

All women got my full serve, no laying off even for a single point.

We won the tournament I'd like to think that my serve played a big role in it

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Congrats. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate that view, and approach. But if you saw some of the ladies I've faced on the other side of the mixed doubles court, I think you would appreciate why I lay off on my serve to them. Men get my best, which can be very good (or not, depending on the day).

I play a lot with my wife, and she gets my best, because I know she can handle it. She actually prefers the hard stuff to the junk balling I fall into when the hard stuff isn't working or when I'm hurting too much to send the good stuff. As I've aged, I've stiffened up a lot and I can serve much harder on the hot summer days than I can in fall and winter when I do a lot more junk balling. The last mixed doubles deal that I won was on a hot summer night. My wife won one last weekend (without me tying her down).

MathGeek said:

I only date women. Does that make me sexist?

One can exercise personal preferences without being sexist.

Sexism is only an issue when there is an obligation to treat people equally. Is there an obligation to for a man to date men as well as women?

Is there an obligation to treat people in whom one will never have a romantic interest the same as those for whom it is a possibility, however remote?

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there is an obligation to treat all opponents equally as it pertains to the issue here.

you must treat all opponents with respect regardless of gender. so no going easy on people based on gender rather than tennis skill. no asking women whether you should go easy on them if you dont do that with men.

size up each opponent based on skill and play accordingly.

regarding dating, i suggest you treat everyone with courtesy and respect regardless of whether yu want to have sex with them.

MathGeek said:

Congrats. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate that view, and approach. But if you saw some of the ladies I've faced on the other side of the mixed doubles court, I think you would appreciate why I lay off on my serve to them. Men get my best, which can be very good (or not, depending on the day).

I play a lot with my wife, and she gets my best, because I know she can handle it. She actually prefers the hard stuff to the junk balling I fall into when the hard stuff isn't working or when I'm hurting too much to send the good stuff. As I've aged, I've stiffened up a lot and I can serve much harder on the hot summer days than I can in fall and winter when I do a lot more junk balling. The last mixed doubles deal that I won was on a hot summer night. My wife won one last weekend (without me tying her down).

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Oh I understand your approach completely. To be fair I never served my hard flat serve, I just gave my full kick serve the entire tournament. It may be 10+mph slower than my flat serve but the kick is what really gives women trouble.

As for groundstrokes I never could bring myself to go at the woman even though our opponents were going after my partner. There was one match where I thought my parter was going to get hurt the opposing guy was going at her so hard at the net.
I wanted to get revenge and go at his partner but she was an older lady in her 60's and I could not bring myself to do it. Plus outside of a few of his shots my partner was actually make good returns and volleys on his shots.

In our last match I did end up going at the woman at net but I did it with dipping groundstrokes and not 100mph forehands. We lost first set 0-6 because our opponents were a very good doubles team and ate up power. They knew when and where to be, how to approach and lob, etc.. Wised up in the second set and instead of trying to hit through them decided to hit at their feet.