let me sum up the differences between them.
Straight arm forehand = More power potential, Harder to time.
Double Bend forehand = Less power potential, Easier to time.
Why?
Because straight arm forehand have a bigger swing path making it easier to plow through the ball, but it's harder to time because you have to hit it out in front of you more which requires better footwork, anticipation, and ball judgement to hit it consistently.
Both forehands can be developed into world class forehands, double bend (in most cases) being the easier of the two.
Eeee, no. For example, Blake and Gonzalez have a lot mph in forehands and hit with double bend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaUH9Bevnew&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFibX-inICg&NR=1
I put potential on there . Timing is more important, to me atleast, then how your arm structure is. You could swing the same racket with the same speed using straight arm and double bend, but either one could easily get more rpms/ mph on the ball.Eeee, no. For example, Blake and Gonzalez have a lot mph in forehands and hit with double bend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaUH9Bevnew&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFibX-inICg&NR=1
Well he said more POTENTIAL. You can definitely pop a bigger forehand with the double bend position; you just need far more racket head speed to pull it off.
Monfils has knocked the biggest forehand I've ever seen in terms of speed, and uses a double bend. But look at how much energy he has to put into the shot. He's jumping, twisting, and exploding. Then you look at Federer do the same thing (at 90-105 mph), it looks almost effortless. Then you look at Nadal do the same thing at 111 mph. It looks like more effort is used than Federer, but far less is used compared to Monfils. Nadal isn't exploding off the ground and putting every little bit he has into the shot.
Nobody can make it look as smooth and easy as Federer or even Nadal.
A straight armed forehand generates power more easily than a double bend because it's much easier to extend your racket through contact. A double bend is more likely to pronate through contact, creating nothing but spin. Your body has to create the power. With a straight arm, you can generate both easily in whatever combinations you desire.
If Monfils could master a straight arm forehand and put as much acceleration into the ball as he does with the double bend forehand he has now, he could probably be #1 in the world with that shot alone!
You could swing the same racket with the same speed using straight arm and double bend, but either one could easily get more rpms/ mph on the ball.
There is n such thing as a concious decision on hitting arm position. Federer hits many double bends too. It is because he uses a pull stroke that he sometimes has his arm extended ore.
There is no such thing as a conscious decision on hitting arm position. Federer hits many double bends too. It is because he uses a pull stroke that he sometimes has his arm extended more.
What is important is whether you are using pronation vs supination in the transition between the takeback and forward swing.
I have heard people alluding to double bend posing more risk for injury, but I have not seen conclusive data. I'd wager that people experiencing pain with DB forehands simply have poor form on their forehand which puts undue stress on certain parts of their body.Whats the injury potential for these ? IMHO The double bend would be inclined to bends and twists and aches and pains
I have heard people alluding to double bend posing more risk for injury, but I have not seen conclusive data. I'd wager that people experiencing pain with DB forehands simply have poor form on their forehand which puts undue stress on certain parts of their body.
I am skeptical. Did you ever film yourself and see if you are doing what you think you are doing? I tried and it's a hard stroke to master.I just switched from the double-bend FH (semi-western grip) to the straight arm FH (eastern grip), and I absolutely love that I did so. I can hit more with power, aim and consistency now with the straight-arm. Your mileage may vary.
Several players have big ones, but the biggest are bent.Straight arm is theoretically better in terms of angular velocity. Assuming the angular velcoity is constant, the longer the lever (arm) the faster the tangential velocity (racket head speed). In practice, it becomes debatable. Del Potro, Cilic and Verdasco are examples of people with big straight arm forehands.
Several players have big ones, but the biggest are bent.
Several players have big ones, but the biggest are bent.
Isn't it just simpler to accept that these pros found what worked best for them? and that in that process, it shook out as it did, with the bent arm Fhs tending to be the more powerful and Imo, best controlled and versatile Fhs. Only way to see the straight arm as more powerful is to speculate and excuse of why it is underperforming currently in that aspect from what I see.Let's be technical for a moment to see exactly how we would proceed if we were serious about settling this debate.
Causal assessment always involve a counterfactual exercise: we are asking how would the same player perform with forehand type A relative to him playing forehand type B. Unless you have a group of people in order to randmonly assign forehand types, our only solution to answering this question would involve using field data. In that case, we'd be comparing group averages (estimators of conditional expected values) for different interesting components of forehands. There are two main problems with this:
1- You have to be ready to accept that a given set of players with forehand type A would be performing exactly as a set of players using forehand type B if they were using forehand type B (we discard differences by narrowing the comparisons -- e.g., comparing players of similar age, experience, etc.);
2- Because you won't have enough data to compute all those averages, let alone meat the requirements for convergence, you'll have to accept specifying a functional form for your expected values -- i.e., you'll be forced to run regressions. (It also implies we need special solutions for the above problems, but we can skip this part for now.)
Doing this would settle the debate, provided the method credibly takes care of those two problems and provided we do find enough of both types of forehand. Now, I ask you the relevant question. Considering that our procedure requires sizable variability (actually, variability of a certain kind in specific places) to detect any sort of significant statistical difference between both forehands, do you think we'd find something? I frankly doubt it. The other problem we'd face is how this would play out for amateurs because our most reasonably accessible source of data would be top professional players' statistics.
I can confirm that you can get bicep pain from straight arm forehands, especially if you frame the ball a lot due to bad timing.Whats the injury potential for these ? IMHO The double bend would be inclined to bends and twists and aches and pains
Isn't it just simpler to accept that these pros found what worked best for them?
Only way to see the straight arm as more powerful is to speculate and excuse of why it is underperforming currently in that aspect from what I see.
Not implausible at all really in my experience and track record. In fact, I'd say that despite your faith in stats, Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful. Correlation is not causation. While I can agree that with the right training, some players might could hit faster forehands with the SA, I still don't believe it would be a superior Fh for competing. I only mention how the fastest measured serves have all been DB to question why so many erroneously state the SA is more powerful and to point out that the SA can't even provide any data to back up that claim.Even granted a ridiculously implausible scenario where your judgement and experience match the joint performance of proper statistical computations and random sampling, your argument remains incorrect.
Not implausible at all really in my experience and track record. In fact, I'd say that despite your faith in stats, Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful. Correlation is not causation. While I can agree that with the right training, some players might could hit faster forehands with the SA, I still don't believe it would be a superior Fh for competing. I only mention how the fastest measured serves have all been DB to question why so many erroneously state the SA is more powerful and to point out that the SA can't even provide any data to back up that claim.
actually it was YOU that didn't read or understand my comment, even after I repeated it for you. I didn't vomit and that is very rude if you want to come off as serious and professional. I don't recall speaking of avg performance to prove anything and only mentioned top performance to point out the the biggest Fhs recorded are not SA, and how odd it is they repeat that the SA is more powerful as though it is a commonly known fact.You either did not read me or didn't understand a word I said.
3. Do you know why I brought up the omission bias? Because, despite you vomiting a slogan about correlation not being causation, you committed this mistake yourself, repeatedly. You can't even use the difference between average performances in many indicators to support your conclusion. .
actually it was YOU that didn't read or understand my comment, even after I repeated it for you. I didn't vomit and that is very rude if you want to come off as serious and professional. I don't recall speaking of avg performance to prove anything and only mentioned top performance to point out the the biggest Fhs recorded are not SA, and how odd it is they repeat that the SA is more powerful as though it is a commonly known fact.
I don't even argue (unless I strayed during all this nonsense) that the SA isn't more powerful, but argue that it is not proven as such, along some evidence to the contrary. So really you have mostly mistaken my position and gone off chasing shadows as your discussion relates to my comments.
On the other hand, I applaud your efforts to actually set up a model to offer some proof of where this issues stands. Imo if you focus more on that and less on needless attacks on me, you might just make a good point.