2000 USO Safin vs. 2010 USO Nadal/2011 USO Djokovic

[NoleFam]

I've told this before to you - that its bull to say agassi's level dropped after 4-2 in the 3rd set. his level only dropped in the 4th set after losing the 3rd set.
Give some godamann credit to federer for breaking back and raising his level in the 3rd set.

the way agassi played in the QF/Final of the USO, he'd definitely have taken a set from Cilic IMO - something which federer didn't do.

What is with this sensitivity coming from the Federer fans today? Chill dude. No one said Federer didn't raise his level. I said Agassi could not maintain his which he couldn't.

Agassi, who is a worse mover than Federer at that age and not as athletic, and got pushed more in the tournament by lesser players would win a set against redlining Cilic? I don't see it.

 

[abmk]

2015 AO Fed lost in the 3rd round. What is there to ignore?

that agassi in AO 05 was clearly better. you don't want to be mentioning that.

2015 USO Fed hadn't lost serve or a set since the Wimbledon final but 2004 USO Agassi is on par with him? No dude.

I told you Federer was broken twice by Kohlscreiber at the USO in 2015.
Agassi had come to the QF convincingly in 2004 as well.

Federer was impressive before the final at the USO, but he couldn't hold up his level for long in 2015 (not more than ~ 2hrs or so anyways). level dipped in the final.

Considering 2004 USO QF agassi was clearly better IMO than federer was in the 2015 USO final, hell yeah, IMO, you can say they are on a similar level for the tournaments.

 

[NoleFam]

Game at 5-4 in the 5th set :

serve+fh winner from blake
fh return winner off the 1st serve from agassi
deep bh return off a body serve to force error from blake
agressive fh return off 2nd serve from agassi to force error from blake
one FH UE from blake trying to go FH DTL after a net chord.

yep, some choke that.

2:26:28

There's other moments that Blake choked in that match, like being up two sets and a break and still letting it to 5. Not serving it out was pretty much icing on the cake.

 

[abmk]

What is with this sensitivity coming from the Federer fans today? Chill dude. No one said Federer didn't raise his level. I said Agassi could not maintain his which he couldn't.

yeah, but only after the 3rd set.
its about you deliberately not giving federer giving federer credit for fighting back vs a well playing Agassi in the 3rd set. its just bullsh*t typical from you. and yes, this time, I'm being a tad sensitive. I wasn't earlier on (earlier on, I was just pointing out you were clearly wrong)

how would you like it if I said federer only played well in set 2 of USO 15 final ?

Agassi, who is a worse mover than Federer at that age and not as athletic, and got pushed more in the tournament by lesser players would win a set against redlining Cilic? I don't see it.

I said the guy who fought back vs Blake in the QF and the one showed up vs Federer in the final.
I didn't say the same about Agassi vs malisse/ginepri.

 

[NoleFam]

that agassi in AO 05 was clearly better. you don't want to be mentioning that.

Why would Federer who lost in the 3rd round be better than either version? This is ridiculous and didn't need to be said.

I told you Federer was broken twice by Kohlscreiber at the USO in 2015.
Agassi had come to the QF convincingly in 2004 as well.

Federer was impressive before the final at the USO, but he couldn't hold up his level for long in 2015 (not more than ~ 2hrs or so anyways). level dipped in the final.

So he lost his serve twice in 11 matches leading up the final. Still very impressive. Agassi still was not that convincing and lost a set to Mayer. Federer still was better and playing at a higher level overall.

Considering 2004 USO QF agassi was clearly better IMO than federer was in the 2015 USO final, hell yeah, IMO, they are on a similar level.

I agree to disagree.

 

[abmk]

There's other moments that Blake choked in that match, like being up two sets and a break and still letting it to 5.

game with blake serving at 3-2 in the 3rd set (up a break):

excellent rally, agassi finishes it with a briliant FH DTL on the run
aggressive bh return from agassi to force the bh error from blake
blake with an amazing fh dtl winner on the run
forceful fh return from agassi to force the fh error from blake
agassi with an excellent Bh dtl and finishes off the point at the net

yep, some amazing choking.


----

the game at 3-4 in the 3rd was the only bad game from Blake.

Not serving it out was pretty much icing on the cake.

not serving it out was no icing on the cake at all. Its all agassi's credit for breaking back with that stunning return game.

 

[NoleFam]

yeah, but only after the 3rd set.
its about you deliberately not giving federer giving federer credit for fighting back vs a well playing Agassi in the 3rd set. its just bullsh*t typical from you. and yes, this time, I'm being a tad sensitive. I wasn't earlier on (earlier on, I was just pointing out you were clearly wrong)

how would you like it if I said federer only played well in set 2 of USO 15 final ?

Dude, it's really not that deep for me. Everything is not always about Federer and everybody is not always out to get Federer. You are way too sensitive and seeing things that are not there.

I said the guy who fought back vs Blake in the QF and the one showed up vs Federer in the final.
I didn't say the same about Agassi vs malisse/ginepri.

Fair enough.

 

[abmk]

Why would Federer who lost in the 3rd round be better than either version? This is ridiculous and didn't need to be said.

but apparently not considering much by you and I repeat apparently.

So he lost his serve twice in 11 matches leading up the final. Still very impressive. Agassi still was not that convincing and lost a set to Mayer. Federer still was better and playing at a higher level overall.

not when he needed it the most --- he went down --- vs Djokovic
Agassi didn't. he played better vs fed than fed did vs djokovic.

I agree to disagree.

you can disagree. I was saying my opinion and its a fair one.

 

[abmk]

Dude, it's really not that deep for me. Everything is not always about Federer and everybody is not always out to get Federer. You are way too sensitive and seeing things that are not there.

yeah, I know pretty well not everybody is out to get federer. But you don't lose many chances to to take a dig or not give credit where it is due.

Anyways my point is the about the reality. agassi's level didn't dip at 4-2 in the 3rd set. it only dipped in the 4th set. Accept it and move on instead of talking about sensitivity and all that stuff.

 

[NoleFam]

game with blake serving at 3-2 in the 3rd set (up a break):

excellent rally, agassi finishes it with a briliant FH DTL on the run
aggressive bh return from agassi to force the bh error from blake
blake with an amazing fh dtl winner on the run
forceful fh return from agassi to force the fh error from blake
agassi with an excellent Bh dtl and finishes off the point at the net

yep, some amazing choking.


----

the game at 3-4 in the 3rd was the only bad game from Blake.




not serving it out was no icing on the cake at all. Its all agassi's credit for breaking back with that stunning return game.

Blake made one first serve in that game at 3-2 which is why he got broken. 1 first serve out of 5 and he also made a forehand unforced error into the net to fall down 15-40 which you failed to mention. Yes it was a choke.

 

[NoleFam]

yeah, I know pretty well not everybody is out to get federer. But you don't lose many chances to to take a dig or not give credit where it is due.

Anyways my point is the about the reality. agassi's level didn't dip at 4-2 in the 3rd set. it only dipped in the 4th set. Accept it and move on instead of talking about sensitivity and all that stuff.

I don't lose chances to take a dig? Dude, I'm one of the non-Fed fans on here who give Federer his credit. Just because I see things differently than you or don't agree with you on most of your "opinions" does not mean I don't give Federer his due. Like I said, not everything is about Federer.

You are definitely too sensitive since you are even bringing this up or that this has gotten you so riled up. It's not that deep nor did I imply Federer never raised his level in that match, since he wouldn't be Federer if he didn't. I'm done talking about this.

 

[abmk]

Blake made one first serve in that game at 3-2 which is why he got broken. 1 first serve out of 5 and he also made a forehand unforced error into the net to fall down 15-40 which you filed to mention. Yes it was a choke.

I didn't.
that one was a semi forced error - which could be classified as forced or unforced.
IMO, agassi return rushed him enough for it to be called a forced error.

and even if you call it a UE, its just 1 UE in the game.

not getting enough 1st serves in does not equal a choke. what do you think ? every game where a player does not get enough serves in is a choke ?

 

[NoleFam]

I didn't.
that one was a semi forced error - which could be classified as forced or unforced.
IMO, agassi return rushed him enough for it to be called a forced error.

and even if you call it a UE, its just 1 UE in the game.

not getting enough 1st serves in does not equal a choke. what do you think ? every game where a player does not get enough serves in is a choke ?

For the record. It's as an unforced error and you can check tennisabstract for confirmation. So now before you said Blake choked and now it's a problem that I made it known? LOL. I agree to disagree on this as well and moving on now.

 

[abmk]

I don't lose chances to take a dig? Dude, I'm one of the non-Fed fans on here who give Federer his credit. Just because I see things differently than you or don't agree with you on most of your "opinions" does not mean I don't give Federer his due. Like I said, not everything is about Federer.

You are definitely too sensitive since you are even bringing this up or that this has gotten you so riled up. It's not that deep nor did I imply Federer never raised his level in that match, since he wouldn't be Federer if he didn't. I'm done talking about this.

LOL, I'm nowhere near riled up today, I can assure you.
and no, you don't give federer his credit. you don't have to agree with me to give federer enough credit.

I'm bringing it up because this is the 2nd time you've been parroting the same wrong stuff. (and you still won't admit that you were wrong)


I'll keep saying Roddick in Wim 09 final > Djokovic in Wim 15 final including saying Roddick returned well in that final vs a monster serving Federer. When you respond, I'll say, dude, why are you being so sensitive ? should I ?

P.S. The Agassi Blake match was a high quality match, which had some choking/let down in level from Blake....not that it was a chokefest and had some good tennis sprinkled in.

what you are doing would be akin to defining AO 2012 final by Djokovic missing that FH at 5-3 in the 4th set TB (which would have given him 3 MPs) (something which not many remember) or more importantly by the missed BH pass from rafa , which would have made it 4-2, 30-0 in the 5th set.

or defining Wim 08 final by federer's missed chances/choking on BPs & letdown in the 2nd set from 4-1 up and nadal's choke in the 4th set TB at 5-2 (DF and a missed easy BH) instead of talking about that it saying that it was an excellent match. (with some deficiencies)

 

[abmk]

For the record. It's as an unforced error and you can check tennisabstract for confirmation. So now before you said Blake choked and now it's a problem that I made it known? LOL. I agree to disagree on this as well and moving on now.

jeez, TA is charted unofficially.so its not an unforced error on the record.

I actually saw the game on Youtube, you know and got back on that. I'm not going by TA charting for UE/FE.

blake's big dip in level came at 3-4 in the 3rd set where it was a bad service game.

but stop parrotting that he choked elsewhere like at 3-2 in the 3rd set or at 5-4 in the 5th set when Agassi fought back and it wasn't Blake playing bad/choking in those instances.
Learn to give players some credit for games well played/fight backs !

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Neither official stats nor TA nor any other statistical breakdowns such as the ones occasionally posted in the FPP section here represent a final authority, because in many cases it's a judgment call - those taking stats in official capacity do not take scientific courses on that either, as there are none. It's down to observation and sense of the game. We know that forced/unforced errors are not all equal, in actuality it's a sliding scale with often fairly vague placements until some machine algorithm is deployed based on computer analysis of the footage, which ain't happening in the foreseeable future.

 

[NatF]

Neither official stats nor TA nor any other statistical breakdowns such as the ones occasionally posted in the FPP section here represent a final authority, because in many cases it's a judgment call - those taking stats in official capacity do not take scientific courses on that either, as there are none. It's down to observation and sense of the game. We know that forced/unforced errors are not all equal, in actuality it's a sliding scale with often fairly vague placements until some machine algorithm is deployed based on computer analysis of the footage, which ain't happening in the foreseeable future.

Even all unforced errors themselves are not all equal, an unforced error where a player goes for a big winner when up 40-0 isn't the same as dumping a second serve return in the net on BP etc...

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

On the match, sure Blake got a bit shaky on some points, but most of it was still good play from Agassi - you can't expect a five-setter to have no dips whatsoever, that doesn't happen because players aren't machines. It was a great match and an amazing effort from Agassi, who showed more heart than Federer in 2014-15 Slam matches despite being worse physically.

 

[Nadal_Django]

Now Agassi 2004-06 who could barely move without the help of his cortisone injection at the time, became better than Federer in 2015 who was spanking people left right and center.
Maaan, that 2004-07 era with the beasts like Hewitt and Roddick, and divine creatures like Davydenko and Blake was simply monstrous isn't it!?
Probably the highest quality of tennis concentrated over relatively small time period in the history of tennis.

 

[robthai]

Nadal2013>>Djoker2011>>Nadal2010>>Fed2006>>Hewitt2001>>Safin2000

2004Fed is crazy overrated.

is that your face in your avatar? It looks very punchable.

 

[zep]

Rebound is generally the faster court tho

Won't disagree with that



According to ITF

Category 1 - Slow
Category 2 - Medium-Slow
Category 3 - Medium
Category 4 - Medium-Fast
Category 5 - Fast

Gerflor Taraflex (Lyon, MS Paris): 5 - Fast
Greenset (Former MS Madrid) : 3 - Medium
Plexipave (Stockholm): 3 - Medium
RuKortHard (Zagreb): 5- Fast
Decoturf II (Indianapolis): 4 - Medium-Fast
Rebound Ace (Former AO): 4/5 - Medium-Fast / Fast
Premier Court: (Not listed)
Play Pave (Chennai): 3 - Medium
Plexicushion (AO): 3/4 - Medium / Medium-Fast
Decoturf (USO): 4 - Medium-Fast

so ye Rebound Ace was pretty fast

Back in the day it was considered slow but rn it would be considered fast lol

The thing with hard courts is that the court speed can be easily manipulated. For example the same plexicushion was made to play quite fast (40+ on speed index) in the last two years.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Even all unforced errors themselves are not all equal, an unforced error where a player goes for a big winner when up 40-0 isn't the same as dumping a second serve return in the net on BP etc...

Obviously. Context is king, which point-by-point charting is good for, though naturally can't cover every single detail, so I've a habit of making notes as I go, which slows the process, but ensures I wouldn't miss anything important, and I do think that gives me a respectable understanding of any match I thus charted.

 

[NatF]

Obviously. Context is king, which point-by-point charting is good for, though naturally can't cover every single detail, so I've a habit of making notes as I go, which slows the process, but ensures I wouldn't miss anything important, and I do think that gives me a respectable understanding of any match I thus charted.

Now if only you would take some requests

How long does it take you to chart a match?

 

[mike danny]

All mugs. Federer having so much trouble with yougovic tells you how good youngovic was

Yeah, true, nothing compared to a Murray, a tutan of the game

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Now if only you would take some requests

How long does it take you to chart a match?

By pure time (distractions not counted), [match time] x [1,5 ~ 3,5] would be a good range, I think. x1,5 is for an unimportant match (like those Fed early rounds), when I skip most changeovers and don't bother rewatching most points except longer rallies and doubtful UE/FE points (still make notes, of course). x3,5 is for a dramatic, significant match, when I don't skip anything, make more detailed notes, and rewatch more points to make sure all sequences are put down correctly.

 

[NatF]

By pure time (distractions not counted), [match time] x [1,5 ~ 3,5] would be a good range, I think. x1,5 is for an unimportant match (like those Fed early rounds), when I skip most changeovers and don't bother rewatching most points except longer rallies and doubtful UE/FE points (still make notes, of course). x3,5 is for a dramatic, significant match, when I don't skip anything, make more detailed notes, and rewatch more points to make sure all sequences are put down correctly.

Maybe I'll look into doing a couple of shorter Hewitt/Roddick matches or something. I'll check out the guide, mind if I pick your brain on this down the line?

 

[mike danny]

Lmao all the sets were so close. Federer was lucky Djokovic was a huge mental midget back then

What’s even funnier is that you think people like Roddick and Davy were top tier opponents or something. Nowhere near A tier

Mental midgetry was Federer at 2011 USO too. And to some extent 2015 USO.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Maybe I'll look into doing a couple of shorter Hewitt/Roddick matches or something. I'll check out the guide, mind if I pick your brain on this down the line?

By all means do. Really, join us - takes time to get used to all the letters and numbers representing various shots, but once you do, it's pretty straightforward. I'm sure others do it quicker than me, I'm just nitpicky since I don't want to see any errors looking at my charts, and make extra notes that aren't part of the project.

 

[tarutani]

Fed-****s always try to hype his weak competition.

 

[mike danny]

Lmao Murray is easily better than Hewitt and Roddick

In a slam final or semi not neccessarily.

Better doesn't mean tougher. Murray more consistent and that's it.

 

[mike danny]

Stan and Murray have more slams than most of Federer’s competition back in 04-07 just saying

Because Djokovic wasn't good enough to keep them at bay.

Murray and Wawrinka would be considered weak era players if they played in 2004-2007.

 

[mike danny]

Lmao Murray is to Djokovic like Roddick is to Federer

And btw Arod is more of midget vs Fed as well

Roddick has given Fed a tougher time in slam finals than Murray.

 

[Boom-Boom]

Safin in 3 (blondes)

 

[Plamen1234]

Lmao Murray is easily better than Hewitt and Roddick

Roddick was close to beating Federer in GS final than Murray

 

[mike danny]

On the match, sure Blake got a bit shaky on some points, but most of it was still good play from Agassi - you can't expect a five-setter to have no dips whatsoever, that doesn't happen because players aren't machines. It was a great match and an amazing effort from Agassi, who showed more heart than Federer in 2014-15 Slam matches despite being worse physically.

Fed at 2014 Wimb did show plenty of heart IMO, even if he was helped by Novak's choking.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Fed at 2014 Wimb did show plenty of heart IMO, even if he was helped by Novak's choking.

I considered that, but Agassi's will to fight even as Blake served for the match puts him above regarding mental strength. Federer unfortunately wilted in the end.