5 things I learned watching ATP pros today

[TimeToPlaySets]

1. Slice ****s up even ATP pros. Slice can induce UE at every level, including the very top. Very hard to attack a slice even for ATP. (See video proof)
2. They explosively recover immediately after hitting the ball. It's like they are running back to center before the stroke is even finished.
3. They swing slower when ball is out of strike zone. They can do a 50% swing that is not slice, but top. They are great at modulating. (form of pusher compared to 3.5 maniac at 100%
4. ATP pros make tons and tons of errors. They constantly make errors. They hit tons of balls into the net. And tons wide. And tons long. Points rarely last over 4 shots. They immediately ask for towel after UE. Immediate reset. Usually.
5. Some 3.5's hit harder than ATP pros on certain shot. These guys don't hit nearly as hard as everyone pretends. Noah Rubin can crush the ball.

 

[AA7]

ATP pros make tons and tons of errors. They constantly make errors. They hit tons of balls into the net. And tons wide. And tons long. Points rarely last over 4 shots. They immediately ask for towel after UE. Immediate reset. Usually.

This is refreshing. Last 3 outings i went from playing my best tennis to not being able to keep the ball in and having an absolute total mental melt down in 3 days...and then its snowballs into more errors.. complete meltdown

 

[AA7]

Btw.. love this video.. cant watch it enough...
Sorry didn't mean to derail your thread

 

[am1899]

lol

 

[ptuanminh]

Yup some 3.5s hit harder than ATP pros' volley.

 

[Cawlin]

Slice ****s up even ATP pros. Slice can induce UE at every level, including the very top. Very hard to attack a slice even for ATP. (See video proof)

Yes, GOOD slice is very difficult to attack... the best you can do with good slice is a) make a good slice back or b) make an EXCEPTIONAL (even for a pro) shot to attack a slice for a winner - very low percentage... if you can't make a GOOD slice back on a well sliced ball, chances are you're going to put back a ball that the other pro can attack.

They explosively recover immediately after hitting the ball. It's like they are running back to center before the stroke is even finished.

And that's because they have to... because pros can attack and hit offensive shots at will, off of balls that you and I and even 5.0 players would only think to just get back, if we even could, let alone attack them... this is the legitimate difference between pro conditioning and rec player conditioning. Try playing this way, actively explosively recovering after every shot - even at your fitness, which I think is pretty solid, I suspect your legs and lungs will be burning in a hurry.

They swing slower when ball is out of strike zone. They can do a 50% swing that is not slice, but top. They are great at modulating. (form of pusher compared to 3.5 maniac at 100%

This is a good lesson and I will put this into my own game. I never realized it, but it makes sense.

ATP pros make tons and tons of errors. They constantly make errors. They hit tons of balls into the net. And tons wide. And tons long. Points rarely last over 4 shots. They immediately ask for towel after UE. Immediate reset. Usually.

They sure do make tons of errors, but then they're playing against other pros, and they need to push the limits of what they can attack and hit aggressively because if they give the opponent (another pro) a neutral ball, chances are it will be attacked... so.. these are unforced errors... but not always TRULY unforced... they would never a) have as hard a shot to handle from a rec player and b) have to hit such an aggressive shot against a rec player... so one could argue that the errors aren't truly "unforced" but rather forced by virtue of their opponent... in the end though... the term "unforced error" is relative to the competition.

Some 3.5's hit harder than ATP pros on certain shot. These guys don't hit nearly as hard as everyone pretends. Noah Rubin can crush the ball.

I'll give you that some 3.5s hit certain shots harder than ATP pros, but that it is almost never to good results. As for the pros not hitting as hard as everyone pretends - I can only say that from watching pros courtside, the ball is FKN MOVING! I can't say how hard everyone pretends that they hit, but I can tell you that I would be hard pressed to just cooperatively rally with even a 5.0 for more than a few strokes unless they backed down their pace a bit... I can only imagine a pro's "cooperative rally" ball pace.




I've told you the story about rallying with my 5.0 coach where I RIPPED a forehand - the best forehand I may have ever hit and he neatly stepped over to it, ripped it back from behind the baseline. I knew off his racquet exactly where the ball was going (about 6 or 8 feet to my forehand side - an easy 2 steps from me and I was standing behind the baseline too, over 80 feet away from the contact) and I also knew in that instant that there was no way in hell that I would have had the time to get prepped to return that ball if it had been hit right to me, let alone make the 2 steps to it... that's only 5.0 pace.

Everything is relative. If one of these pros were playing with you or me, they'd make fewer than 5% errors out of their total strokes the whole match - we do not have the pace to challenge them, nor do they need the pace or precision they need against other pros to beat us, so they'd be playing nice and easy, comfortable, casual shots, and would be blowing us off the court, all while making next to no errors themselves. Meanwhile, against another pro, the whole thing is different.

Paul Annacone once said on a broadcast (I'm paraphrasing slightly) "Playing the "one more ball" strategy is valid all the way up to the top 200 of the ATP". There are two messages to take away from that statement. One is for the rec player, and it is that keeping the ball in play is a valid strategy for all of our conceivable aspirations. The other message is for pros, and that message is that if you want to break into the top 200, you need to learn to successfully attack more balls than you ever thought about doing - because inside the top 200, everyone else is doing that, and if you're just playing "one more ball" they're going to blow you off the court.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Some 3.5's hit harder than ATP pros on certain shot. These guys don't hit nearly as hard as everyone pretends. Noah Rubin can crush the ball.

Nope, shot for shot they all hit harder than 3.5 players. It looks like they aren't swinging fast but that ball zings off their racquets. Only the most narcissistic 3.5 thinks his pace is somewhere near a pros.

Granted they will hit with lower pace when faced with a low ball. That's physics since it's hard to get underneath the ball enough to impart all the topspin you require to hit hard. Those balls will be slower than their wheelhouse rally balls but at the same time they will ensure depth on every slower paced ball they hit. I'm amazed they can get any topspin whatsoever on those knee high balls. Usually all I can do is slice or hit a dropper on those balls.

As i mentioned in a previous thread, the big thing I notice with pros is how they know when to play defense and when to play offense and can switch seamlessly. Even the most recalcitrant baseline defenders amongst the pros will spank a winner when given a short ball.

 

[thehustler]

Yeah a good slice is awesome. I've realized that if you can get a slice down low enough and your opponent has a 2hbh they'll likely try to hit a 2hbh back instead of slicing it. That usually generates a UE unless they have good footwork to get the ball at a little higher position. I think it's important to have multiple slices. One that can go from high to low and low to high and mix around the different side spins, depth and so forth.

Footwork and explosion are so important. It's something I try to work on constantly and it's paying off more and more. It's amazing how many people I see just stand there until they need to move and by that time they're too late to get a good shot. I've expressed to them many times how I'm working on these things and yet each time I play them they're doing the same old things as always.

I like the thought of the swinging slower when the ball is out of the strike zone. I'll try that as well and see what results I get.

Errors are errors are errors. I think seeing the pros make errors is why we play. It makes us feel like we could be out there with them, because hey they're human as well. If it was only winners at the pro level and never errors I think it'd be far more discouraging for any of us to play, but thankfully that's not the case.

As for the "one more ball" it makes so much sense, but even at lower levels I've seen so many people give up on balls they should be able to get to. It's been my mantra ever since I started playing tennis when I was fast enough to get all over the court. I'm not as fast now, but with improved footwork, anticipation and strokes I don't need to be. I've had some points recently where I just kept 2 or 3 more shots in and was able to force my opponent into an error. It felt great (and also tiring because it was hot out). It's so important as well to have a weapon, to be able to attack and many rec hacks don't have that, or they 'do' but it's so inconsistent that they can't really rely on it.

 

[AlexSV]

1. Slice ****s up even ATP pros. Slice can induce UE at every level, including the very top. Very hard to attack a slice even for ATP. (See video proof)
2. They explosively recover immediately after hitting the ball. It's like they are running back to center before the stroke is even finished.
3. They swing slower when ball is out of strike zone. They can do a 50% swing that is not slice, but top. They are great at modulating. (form of pusher compared to 3.5 maniac at 100%
4. ATP pros make tons and tons of errors. They constantly make errors. They hit tons of balls into the net. And tons wide. And tons long. Points rarely last over 4 shots. They immediately ask for towel after UE. Immediate reset. Usually.
5. Some 3.5's hit harder than ATP pros on certain shot. These guys don't hit nearly as hard as everyone pretends. Noah Rubin can crush the ball.

Who is that first guy in the video?

 

[sureshs]

1. ATP pros make tons and tons of errors. They constantly make errors. They hit tons of balls into the net. And tons wide. And tons long.

That is not necessarily a side effect of going for winners against tough opponents, as we may naively think. It shows a lack of focus and the "every point is important" mentality. That is why Nadal and Djokovic have superior H2Hs against Federer. Both of them, especially Nadal, do NOT throw away points.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Errors are errors are errors. I think seeing the pros make errors is why we play. It makes us feel like we could be out there with them, because hey they're human as well. If it was only winners at the pro level and never errors I think it'd be far more discouraging for any of us to play, but thankfully that's not the case.

Not all errors are created equal. Unforced errors are not the same as forced errors. Many pro errors are forced errors. Even many of there unforced errors are forced by the fact that just getting the ball over the net is not good enough at that level. I'm sure they could bunt every ball back and get killed by winners and never "make an error". But the margins are so tight in the pros they need to hit deeper, wider and harder with more spin than you or I to create an advantage. Naturally that will lead to many errors.

 

[sureshs]

Not all errors are created equal. Unforced errors are not the same as forced errors. Many pro errors are forced errors. Even many of there unforced errors are forced by the fact that just getting the ball over the net is not good enough at that level. I'm sure they could bunt every ball back and get killed by winners and never "make an error". But the margins are so tight in the pros they need to hit deeper, wider and harder with more spin than you or I to create an advantage. Naturally that will lead to many errors.

To some extent, yes. Beyond that it is because they are not good enough, to put it bluntly. That is one reason why Nadal is such a difficult opponent. Many pros are just plain impatient and want to end the point quickly, or keep playing only when the game fits their grooved pattern.

 

[tennis4me]

Yes, GOOD slice is very difficult to attack... the best you can do with good slice is a) make a good slice back or b) make an EXCEPTIONAL (even for a pro) shot to attack a slice for a winner - very low percentage... if you can't make a GOOD slice back on a well sliced ball, chances are you're going to put back a ball that the other pro can attack.



And that's because they have to... because pros can attack and hit offensive shots at will, off of balls that you and I and even 5.0 players would only think to just get back, if we even could, let alone attack them... this is the legitimate difference between pro conditioning and rec player conditioning. Try playing this way, actively explosively recovering after every shot - even at your fitness, which I think is pretty solid, I suspect your legs and lungs will be burning in a hurry.



This is a good lesson and I will put this into my own game. I never realized it, but it makes sense.



They sure do make tons of errors, but then they're playing against other pros, and they need to push the limits of what they can attack and hit aggressively because if they give the opponent (another pro) a neutral ball, chances are it will be attacked... so.. these are unforced errors... but not always TRULY unforced... they would never a) have as hard a shot to handle from a rec player and b) have to hit such an aggressive shot against a rec player... so one could argue that the errors aren't truly "unforced" but rather forced by virtue of their opponent... in the end though... the term "unforced error" is relative to the competition.



I'll give you that some 3.5s hit certain shots harder than ATP pros, but that it is almost never to good results. As for the pros not hitting as hard as everyone pretends - I can only say that from watching pros courtside, the ball is FKN MOVING! I can't say how hard everyone pretends that they hit, but I can tell you that I would be hard pressed to just cooperatively rally with even a 5.0 for more than a few strokes unless they backed down their pace a bit... I can only imagine a pro's "cooperative rally" ball pace.




I've told you the story about rallying with my 5.0 coach where I RIPPED a forehand - the best forehand I may have ever hit and he neatly stepped over to it, ripped it back from behind the baseline. I knew off his racquet exactly where the ball was going (about 6 or 8 feet to my forehand side - an easy 2 steps from me and I was standing behind the baseline too, over 80 feet away from the contact) and I also knew in that instant that there was no way in hell that I would have had the time to get prepped to return that ball if it had been hit right to me, let alone make the 2 steps to it... that's only 5.0 pace.

Everything is relative. If one of these pros were playing with you or me, they'd make fewer than 5% errors out of their total strokes the whole match - we do not have the pace to challenge them, nor do they need the pace or precision they need against other pros to beat us, so they'd be playing nice and easy, comfortable, casual shots, and would be blowing us off the court, all while making next to no errors themselves. Meanwhile, against another pro, the whole thing is different.

Paul Annacone once said on a broadcast (I'm paraphrasing slightly) "Playing the "one more ball" strategy is valid all the way up to the top 200 of the ATP". There are two messages to take away from that statement. One is for the rec player, and it is that keeping the ball in play is a valid strategy for all of our conceivable aspirations. The other message is for pros, and that message is that if you want to break into the top 200, you need to learn to successfully attack more balls than you ever thought about doing - because inside the top 200, everyone else is doing that, and if you're just playing "one more ball" they're going to blow you off the court.

A lot of good points in here. Where's that thing you press ...

 

[thehustler]

Not all errors are created equal. Unforced errors are not the same as forced errors. Many pro errors are forced errors. Even many of there unforced errors are forced by the fact that just getting the ball over the net is not good enough at that level. I'm sure they could bunt every ball back and get killed by winners and never "make an error". But the margins are so tight in the pros they need to hit deeper, wider and harder with more spin than you or I to create an advantage. Naturally that will lead to many errors.

I understand that all errors are different, but in the end an error is an error, it means you lost the point, whether it was forced or not. I do agree at the pro level that most errors are forced.

 

[undecided]

1. Slice ****s up even ATP pros. Slice can induce UE at every level, including the very top. Very hard to attack a slice even for ATP. (See video proof)
2. They explosively recover immediately after hitting the ball. It's like they are running back to center before the stroke is even finished.
3. They swing slower when ball is out of strike zone. They can do a 50% swing that is not slice, but top. They are great at modulating. (form of pusher compared to 3.5 maniac at 100%
4. ATP pros make tons and tons of errors. They constantly make errors. They hit tons of balls into the net. And tons wide. And tons long. Points rarely last over 4 shots. They immediately ask for towel after UE. Immediate reset. Usually.
5. Some 3.5's hit harder than ATP pros on certain shot. These guys don't hit nearly as hard as everyone pretends. Noah Rubin can crush the ball.

No 3.5 will ever hit a ball harder than an actual touring ATP pro and have it stay in the court. No ONE. Same for 4.0. Same for 4.5. Their warm up balls are faster than any 3.5 can reliably hit in the court.

 

[R1FF]

Yes, GOOD slice is very difficult to attack... the best you can do with good slice is a) make a good slice back or b) make an EXCEPTIONAL (even for a pro) shot to attack a slice for a winner - very low percentage... if you can't make a GOOD slice back on a well sliced ball, chances are you're going to put back a ball that the other pro can attack.



And that's because they have to... because pros can attack and hit offensive shots at will, off of balls that you and I and even 5.0 players would only think to just get back, if we even could, let alone attack them... this is the legitimate difference between pro conditioning and rec player conditioning. Try playing this way, actively explosively recovering after every shot - even at your fitness, which I think is pretty solid, I suspect your legs and lungs will be burning in a hurry.



This is a good lesson and I will put this into my own game. I never realized it, but it makes sense.



They sure do make tons of errors, but then they're playing against other pros, and they need to push the limits of what they can attack and hit aggressively because if they give the opponent (another pro) a neutral ball, chances are it will be attacked... so.. these are unforced errors... but not always TRULY unforced... they would never a) have as hard a shot to handle from a rec player and b) have to hit such an aggressive shot against a rec player... so one could argue that the errors aren't truly "unforced" but rather forced by virtue of their opponent... in the end though... the term "unforced error" is relative to the competition.



I'll give you that some 3.5s hit certain shots harder than ATP pros, but that it is almost never to good results. As for the pros not hitting as hard as everyone pretends - I can only say that from watching pros courtside, the ball is FKN MOVING! I can't say how hard everyone pretends that they hit, but I can tell you that I would be hard pressed to just cooperatively rally with even a 5.0 for more than a few strokes unless they backed down their pace a bit... I can only imagine a pro's "cooperative rally" ball pace.




I've told you the story about rallying with my 5.0 coach where I RIPPED a forehand - the best forehand I may have ever hit and he neatly stepped over to it, ripped it back from behind the baseline. I knew off his racquet exactly where the ball was going (about 6 or 8 feet to my forehand side - an easy 2 steps from me and I was standing behind the baseline too, over 80 feet away from the contact) and I also knew in that instant that there was no way in hell that I would have had the time to get prepped to return that ball if it had been hit right to me, let alone make the 2 steps to it... that's only 5.0 pace.

Everything is relative. If one of these pros were playing with you or me, they'd make fewer than 5% errors out of their total strokes the whole match - we do not have the pace to challenge them, nor do they need the pace or precision they need against other pros to beat us, so they'd be playing nice and easy, comfortable, casual shots, and would be blowing us off the court, all while making next to no errors themselves. Meanwhile, against another pro, the whole thing is different.

Paul Annacone once said on a broadcast (I'm paraphrasing slightly) "Playing the "one more ball" strategy is valid all the way up to the top 200 of the ATP". There are two messages to take away from that statement. One is for the rec player, and it is that keeping the ball in play is a valid strategy for all of our conceivable aspirations. The other message is for pros, and that message is that if you want to break into the top 200, you need to learn to successfully attack more balls than you ever thought about doing - because inside the top 200, everyone else is doing that, and if you're just playing "one more ball" they're going to blow you off the court.

Great post. I’d “like” if that function was available still.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

They sure do make tons of errors, but then they're playing against other pros, and they need to push the limits of what they can attack and hit aggressively because if they give the opponent (another pro) a neutral ball, chances are it will be attacked... so.. these are unforced errors... but not always TRULY unforced... they would never a) have as hard a shot to handle from a rec player and b) have to hit such an aggressive shot against a rec player... so one could argue that the errors aren't truly "unforced" but rather forced by virtue of their opponent... in the end though... the term "unforced error" is relative to the competition.

No, they miss routine easy balls also.
Tennis is hard.

Listen to this

Rafael Nadal Misses Feeds - Essential Tennis Podcast #322 -

Did you know you have a lot in common with one of the best tennis players ever to step onto a court, Rafael Nadal? You do! Today’s episode of the

www.essentialtennis.com

 

[Cawlin]

No, they miss routine easy balls also.
Tennis is hard.

Listen to this

Rafael Nadal Misses Feeds - Essential Tennis Podcast #322 -

Did you know you have a lot in common with one of the best tennis players ever to step onto a court, Rafael Nadal? You do! Today’s episode of the

www.essentialtennis.com

Well sure, true enough... but my point was just that many of their misses in a match are likely to be because they were going for broke in order to avoid having a winner hit on them...

And yes... you're absolutely correct - tennis is hard.

 

[Cawlin]

A lot of good points in here. Where's that thing you press ...

Great post. I’d “like” if that function was available still.

Thanks to both of you... wish I could have just liked these back... but hey, I'm not against a freebie +1 post count either... at least I exercised some restraint in thanking you both in one post

 

[andfor]

I counter with the following. Pros finish their shots before recovery, just recover instantly after finishing the shot. Recovering before finishing leads to mishits.
Pros hit every shot harder than a 3.5 given the opportunity for both to hit the same ball in the same situation. The reason they may not appear to hit as hard as perceived is their anticipation, preparation, movement and timing create an illusion of ease. Try playing a pro or even top college player and see how many points can be won.
Pros do make errors and when you see them make many its usually in practice. Look at some match stats, most good matches show more winners than errors at the ATP level.

 

[Dartagnan64]

most good matches show more winners than errors at the ATP level.

Well they tend to show similar numbers for winners to UE. Forced errors are not typically shown but can be calculated based on FE's = Total Points - (winners/aces + UE's). You'll find that many points are forced errors when you do this calculation.

 

[Blade0324]

No 3.5 will ever hit a ball harder than an actual touring ATP pro and have it stay in the court. No ONE. Same for 4.0. Same for 4.5. Their warm up balls are faster than any 3.5 can reliably hit in the court.

This is 100% accurate. As a solid 4.5 I have hit with ATP players that are just inside top 100 and they hit at 70% with more pace and spin than any 3.5,4.0,4.5 can hit with at 100%. If you think otherwise you are simply wrong.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

3.5 will demolish an approach shot into the back fence.
ATP will carefully place it.
3.5 hits harder than ATP

 

[Blade0324]

3.5 will demolish an approach shot into the back fence.
ATP will carefully place it.
3.5 hits harder than ATP

Well that is where we disagree. That shot from the 3.5 that was demolished into the back fence by the 3.5 is most likely still not hit as hard as the well placed shot by the ATP pro.

 

[thehustler]

I'd rather have a shot hit hard and well placed like an ATP pro than have any shot that's demolished into the back fence. I can only assume that means the ball never hit the court and went straight to the back fence. In that case that would mean I can hit my serve harder than a pro can hit a delicate drop shot. So therefore I hit harder than them and should clearly be at the USO instead of being on here.

 

[Dartagnan64]

3.5 will demolish an approach shot into the back fence.
ATP will carefully place it.
3.5 hits harder than ATP

No the pro will just demolish the short ball into the court rather than the back fence. Topspin for the win.

 

[sureshs]

No the pro will just demolish the short ball into the court rather than the back fence. Topspin for the win.

You realize you are replying to "3.5 hits harder than ATP," right? You never learn.

 

[andfor]

Well they tend to show similar numbers for winners to UE. Forced errors are not typically shown but can be calculated based on FE's = Total Points - (winners/aces + UE's). You'll find that many points are forced errors when you do this calculation.

Studies show winners and unforced errors represent about 70% of total points. 30% forced errors is not that much.​

 

[FiReFTW]

Yeah they make tons of errors, against ATP shots that are hard and well placed and attack you constantly.

Let an ATP player play a 4.5 or 5.0 player, they would rarely make errors and would be on the offensive and crushing balls constantly.

 

[R1FF]

I'd rather have a shot hit hard and well placed like an ATP pro than have any shot that's demolished into the back fence. I can only assume that means the ball never hit the court and went straight to the back fence. In that case that would mean I can hit my serve harder than a pro can hit a delicate drop shot. So therefore I hit harder than them and should clearly be at the USO instead of being on here.

What kind of hustler would u be if you actually played against other pro’s?

Studies show winners and unforced errors represent about 70% of total points. 30% forced errors is not that much.

30% forced errors compared to 35% winners & 35% UE’s?

I mean, 30% doesnt seem like much if you take everything else and combine it to make 70%. But apples to apples it might be a significant number, right?

 

[thehustler]

What kind of hustler would u be if you actually played against other pro’s?

I don't know. I'd do what I do, I'd hustle to everything (hence the username). It'd be fun though and I'm hoping the guy who was a top junior player gets his form back so I can figure out what to learn and improve on.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Yeah they make tons of errors, against ATP shots that are hard and well placed and attack you constantly.

Let an ATP player play a 4.5 or 5.0 player, they would rarely make errors and would be on the offensive and crushing balls constantly.

Nope, this is some naive fantasy that rec players seem to have.
ATP pros are not magical unicorns.

Tennis is hard.

Have you ever watched a pro match live?
They miss basic feed balls that are bunted to them by a 2.5 sandbagger

I'll post this again.

 

[Standaa]

1. ATP pros make tons and tons of errors. They constantly make errors. They hit tons of balls into the net. And tons wide. And tons long. Points rarely last over 4 shots.
2. Some 3.5's hit harder than ATP pros on certain shot. These guys don't hit nearly as hard as everyone pretends.

so what you’re saying is they aren’t that impressive?

 

[thehustler]

Clearly in the first video Fed was working on his errors. You don't get to be the current GOAT without being well rounded.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

so what you’re saying is they aren’t that impressive?

Not at all.
They are insanely skilled after devoting their entire lives to this skill.

What I am saying is that hitting a tennis ball is a very hard thing to do. Even for ATP pros.
They make TONS of routine errors on easy balls. I've observed this for years

In the video above, Fed, the GOAT, is blundering basic feed balls.
THAT's how ****ing hard this game is.

Rafael Nadal Misses Feeds - Essential Tennis Podcast #322 -

Did you know you have a lot in common with one of the best tennis players ever to step onto a court, Rafael Nadal? You do! Today’s episode of the

www.essentialtennis.com

Pros make tons of mistakes

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/pros-make-tons-of-mistakes.581917/

 

[thehustler]

It didn't look like Fed was trying that hard in the warmup. He's likely been practicing for a couple hours previous to that. Not sure who the opponent was, maybe Fed was bored and just working on some things. I think that can happen to all of us sometimes. Perhaps you know you're going to smack someone and you can clearly tell they don't have the firepower to hurt you, so you work on things. Maybe it generates a few sloppy errors, but you don't mind, because you know if you were really putting in 100% effort you'd be crushing the opponent, which to me you should do, as time on court seems to matter, or at least matter to the sports networks.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Hey heh.

I watched part of a match with that super tall American guy, and he did something I dont think I've ever seen a pro do: stand there watching his shot, and lose the point as a direct result.

We rec players do that all the time but pros dont. It was really quite striking, and it was so bad the commentators called him out.

 

[graycrait]

watched part of a match with that super tall American guy, and he did something I dont think I've ever seen a pro do: stand there watching his shot, and lose the point as a direct result.

We rec players do that all the time but pros dont.

Ain't that the truth! Even on the serve.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Studies show winners and unforced errors represent about 70% of total points. 30% forced errors is not that much.

Since the ratio of Winners to UE's in pro tennis generally hovers around 1:1, we can roughly assume 35% Winners, 35% UE's and 30% FE's? Sounds like they are all pretty close. It's definitely an ignored sizeable chunk.

Here's a report from NYT:
"Unforced errors are not even the No. 1 error that occurs in a match, yet they have pushed the more abundant forced error statistic into oblivion.

In the men’s draw at Roland Garros for the past two years, forced errors have outnumbered unforced errors, 17,738 points to 17,056 points, but you would never know it. Forced errors are not a line item on the tournament statistics page."

So I think my assertions stand.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Hey heh.

I watched part of a match with that super tall American guy, and he did something I dont think I've ever seen a pro do: stand there watching his shot, and lose the point as a direct result.

We rec players do that all the time but pros dont. It was really quite striking, and it was so bad the commentators called him out.

I saw a pro do the same thing yesterday at the US Open.
He watched the opponent's ball land 1 inch inside the baseline.
The player screamed, "HIT IT!!!" and went crazy.

Tennis is hard.

 

[R1FF]

I don't know. I'd do what I do, I'd hustle to everything (hence the username). It'd be fun though and I'm hoping the guy who was a top junior player gets his form back so I can figure out what to learn and improve on.

I was making a bad attempt at a joke. By “hustler” i thought you meant that you sandbagged.

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

Since the ratio of Winners to UE's in pro tennis generally hovers around 1:1, we can roughly assume 35% Winners, 35% UE's and 30% FE's? Sounds like they are all pretty close. It's definitely an ignored sizeable chunk.

Here's a report from NYT:
"Unforced errors are not even the No. 1 error that occurs in a match, yet they have pushed the more abundant forced error statistic into oblivion.

In the men’s draw at Roland Garros for the past two years, forced errors have outnumbered unforced errors, 17,738 points to 17,056 points, but you would never know it. Forced errors are not a line item on the tournament statistics page."

So I think my assertions stand.

Strong players seek to force errors while reducing their own risk. This is the “No secret secret” of playing advanced tennis. [emoji41][emoji462][emoji41]


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[mad dog1]

It didn't look like Fed was trying that hard in the warmup. He's likely been practicing for a couple hours previous to that. Not sure who the opponent was, maybe Fed was bored and just working on some things. I think that can happen to all of us sometimes. Perhaps you know you're going to smack someone and you can clearly tell they don't have the firepower to hurt you, so you work on things. Maybe it generates a few sloppy errors, but you don't mind, because you know if you were really putting in 100% effort you'd be crushing the opponent, which to me you should do, as time on court seems to matter, or at least matter to the sports networks.

Fed was hitting with Mackie MacDonald.

 

[thehustler]

I was making a bad attempt at a joke. By “hustler” i thought you meant that you sandbagged.

I thought that's what you might've meant. I got the nickname from a friend years ago for my aability to track everything down. Sandbaggers annoy me.

 

[R1FF]

Strong players seek to force errors while reducing their own risk. This is the “No secret secret” of playing advanced tennis. [emoji41][emoji462][emoji41]


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Im not a “strong” player yet. But this has been my goal. Get good enough aggressive strokes that I can play “real tennis” while forcing errors.

This past week it has finally started to “click”. I credit the hitting wall. Im hitting with pusher accuracy & patience yet 4.0 & sometimes 4.5 pace.

I cant say it’s the strategy to have. But it’s the strategy for me. And im playing the best tennis of my life.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

I'd rather have a shot hit hard and well placed like an ATP pro than have any shot that's demolished into the back fence. I can only assume that means the ball never hit the court and went straight to the back fence. In that case that would mean I can hit my serve harder than a pro can hit a delicate drop shot. So therefore I hit harder than them and should clearly be at the USO instead of being on here.

This conversation reminds of an old Jack Nicklaus story. Jack was hitting 3 irons on the driving range about 175 yards. One of the spectators watching commented to his friend that he wasn't that impressed and he could hit that same club 190 yards. Jack proceeds to hit the next three balls 190, 200 and 210 yards. He then turns and says to the guy, 'The difference between you and me is I hit it 190 yards when I want to'

Sure it's apocryphal, but the point is valid. The difference isn't that the pros hit the ball harder than a 3.5 (or a 4.0 or 4.5). The difference is they can hit hard when they need to, and they know when they don't.

That, and their movement, anticipation, preparation and about a hundred other things.

 

[thehustler]

This conversation reminds of an old Jack Nicklaus story. Jack was hitting 3 irons on the driving range about 175 yards. One of the spectators watching commented to his friend that he wasn't that impressed and he could hit that same club 190 yards. Jack proceeds to hit the next three balls 190, 200 and 210 yards. He then turns and says to the guy, 'The difference between you and me is I hit it 190 yards when I want to'

Sure it's apocryphal, but the point is valid. The difference isn't that the pros hit the ball harder than a 3.5 (or a 4.0 or 4.5). The difference is they can hit hard when they need to, and they know when they don't.

That, and their movement, anticipation, preparation and about a hundred other things.

Where's the darn like button when you need it?

 

[ptuanminh]

There's a really easy way to solve this dumb mystery "3.5 hits harder than ATP pro". Give 3.5s a racquet with speed sensor and let them swing for the fence. Measure the speed and compare with ATP average speed.

 

[FiReFTW]

Nope, this is some naive fantasy that rec players seem to have.
ATP pros are not magical unicorns.

Tennis is hard.

Have you ever watched a pro match live?
They miss basic feed balls that are bunted to them by a 2.5 sandbagger

I'll post this again.

So your saying a 4.5 would play decently against them and be winning points? Lol

Federer had 94 winners to 62 unforced errors in wimbledon 19 final and all that while playing against a 7.0 player.

How many winners to unforced errors does a 4.5 have playing against a 4.5?

A 4.5 would be lucky to win a point or two in a set vs a pro

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

There's a really easy way to solve this dumb mystery "3.5 hits harder than ATP pro". Give 3.5s a racquet with speed sensor and let them swing for the fence. Measure the speed and compare with ATP average speed.

Like like like


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