Are these club coaching rules draconian?
- Thread starter sureshs
- Start date
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
No one is arguing that courts can not grant sole access to paid, qualified coaching instruction.
The issue is why unpaid informal instruction is limited to parents alone and preclude other social relationships.
Everyone has played with better-playing friends who have helped us on court and this rule catches this.
The issue is why unpaid informal instruction is limited to parents alone and preclude other social relationships.
Everyone has played with better-playing friends who have helped us on court and this rule catches this.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
Obviously they've been burned before with some people coming on their courts claiming they were family or just "helping" someone out but instead were taking money for their services, got caught so the club changed its policies.
The answer was obvious - the craigslist coaches claim to have played college tennis and even mention the colleges, while many club coaches here have not. I don't see what is there to explain.
sovertennis
Professional
Suresh, what form does the "teaching" take? If your buddy is standing at one baseline giving you instruction while you hit from the other, I can understand how this may violate the club's posted rules. Conversely, if you both stand at the net and quietly discuss (ie so no one else knows what you're saying) what you'll do for the next five minutes (eg,hit xc backhands), then you probably won't run afoul of the authorities.
Fuji
Legend
I've had a situation of undercutting happen at my club, which is why these rules are enforced. Example:
The average rate at my club for 1 hour of private lesson is $100. Other coaches will come in as a guest to members and do "semi-private" lessons for $50. Obviously the facility catches on due to a single well known "advanced" player constantly hitting with beginners or intermediate players. It's not fair to the facility or the staff at the club to be undercut at their own facility. Public courts are totally fair game, but in my experience this was the biggest issue.
-Fuji
mightyrick
Legend
It's obviously a gray area, but their point is that if the activity has the potential to infringe on the opportunity of their sanctioned instructors. The nature of the independent coaching fees (free or paid) doesn't matter.
I've actually looked up several different kinds of clubs. This is absolutely standard practice in the following areas I looked at:
* Formal or informal swim instruction cannot be provided by unapproved independent coaches at public/semi-private swimming pools.
* Formal or informal personal training cannot be provided by unapproved independent coaches at municipal or private fitness organizations.
* Formal or informal personal training cannot be provided by unapproved independent coaches at municipal or private tennis organizations.
I think we all agree that some semblance of family-based "guidance" is totally permissible. But the moment it gets to providing a more formal level of instruction (gratis or non-gratis) on these premises... that infringes upon the opportunities available to sanctioned instructors at those facilities.
barringer97
Semi-Pro
I think this makes sense, obviously you can't do this at Private Clubs, but even in my city courts, if you are going to teach, you need to rent the court and by a fee to the city.
I've used our public courts to coach my kids and I have been confronted numerous times and asked if I was teaching someone other than a family member.
I've used our public courts to coach my kids and I have been confronted numerous times and asked if I was teaching someone other than a family member.
I dont get it. You pay to use a public court, and have less rights than a free public court. Shouldnt our tax dollars be enough gouging?
mightyrick
Legend
Do you believe that a private organization should have the right rope off a section of a public park to offer whatever services they want? Whenever they want?
Do you basically think that if tax dollars are used to provide facilities to the public... that anybody in the public can do whatever they want with them?
Or do you think there probably should be some guidelines and limits to what individuals do with resources provided by a municipality and funded with tax dollars?
barringer97
Semi-Pro
In theory, yes. I pay $50 for the key and I pay a heavy property tax.
I guess the issue is to stop the abuse? I think we are all fine with a tennis pro teaching an hour here and there but what's to stop him from teaching there all day and essentially controlling it?
Mightytrick, you bring up a reasonable point that I've seen happen. IMO, it's one thing if you and a coach use a public court for a lesson, in the same way that two players would use the court, then pack up your stuff and go. There shouldn't be any restriction on that. OTOH, if some coach is setting up shop for many hours teaching student after student (which I have seen), then we've now crossed a line. The court is now being monopolized by one person, so he can make money with the subsidy of my tax dollars. Others can't use the court.
In theory, yes. I pay $50 for the key and I pay a heavy property tax.
I guess the issue is to stop the abuse? I think we are all fine with a tennis pro teaching an hour here and there but what's to stop him from teaching there all day and essentially controlling it?
That is the difference in my mind.
mightyrick
Legend
Yep, this is exactly the problem. None of us would give a care if a coach in a pinch had to "go outside the system" and give a lesson on a public court. I think we're all reasonable humans in that regard.
But the reality is, as you point out, lots of coaches will (and do) take advantage of it.
There's simply no way to realistically police the situation without just banning the practice outright.
As ever, the reason we have rules and regulations is because of the ones who would otherwise take advantage of the system for their own benefit... and to the detriment of others.
No, you cant do whatever u want on public courts. There's no skating, hockey, or other non tennis activities allowed. But you can play tennis, drill w/ a friend, or practice w a coach. These are all reasonable activities that I expect to be able to do.
No matter which court u play on, somebody had to pay for them. Unless the coach has his own courts.
Fuji
Legend
On average it's around 70-80 dollars an hour. I've seen upward of about 125 and as low as 40. I don't set my private fee, but it is slightly above average. Generally the best coaches aren't above 100, although many do float around that mark.
-Fuji
mightyrick
Legend
Ok. So that would be your first cut at a proposal. Now I ask you the following...
So let's say that a full time coach reserves a court at a public sets of courts for all of his/her private coaching lessons -- every time he/she has them? Is that okay? What if several coaches in the immediate area do that?
So basically, you end up with a public court that is being significantly used by private coaches -- rather than general public consumption.
You think that's okay?
When I paid for my gym membership, I asked specifically if these rooms are free to use. Later, the rooms became locked.
When I paid for lessons (not tennis related), I was told I could use the facilities as long as no one was waiting. Apparently someone didn't get the memo. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth since I was promised these things I paid for.
If I want to take a stroll through the park all day, I can do that. Tennis, I used to play 6 hours a day. If there were people on all the courts, we would just drive to another one nearby.
Some courts have a time limit, but why would u wait? The IBM courts near Parmer would have a reservation system. Usually around 5 or 6pm during the summer, they would be reserved and you could get kicked out.
We used to play at St Edwards, but our group got banned since someone thought we were taking up too much court. Anyways, tennis is weird in austin and I didn't have to deal w this in other cities.
pkil
Banned
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
We have this policy at my club and it's a non-profit. We have one or two guys that give lessons anyway - they just try to stay under the radar. High-school coaches are excepted - they can bring their teams in for practices.
In our club, the BOD makes the rules so you can run for BOD to try to get the rules changed.
My daughter took lessons about 7 years ago at a club with very good instructors and it ran me about $70/hour. I imagine that it costs somewhat more now. This wasn't the top coach - I think that he was $20 more - but the lady that taught her was a very good coach. She coached one of the better high-school teams in the area.
In our club, the BOD makes the rules so you can run for BOD to try to get the rules changed.
My daughter took lessons about 7 years ago at a club with very good instructors and it ran me about $70/hour. I imagine that it costs somewhat more now. This wasn't the top coach - I think that he was $20 more - but the lady that taught her was a very good coach. She coached one of the better high-school teams in the area.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
How much do you guys believe tennis lessons, including court fees, should be per hour?
mightyrick
Legend
I think $40 to $60 per hour is reasonable depending on the qualifications and experience of the coach.
If the coach is being hired as a specialist, (for example serve specialist, doubles specialist, footwork specialist), I would say that $60 all the way to $100 or more would be reasonable.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
That varies by local market, quality and experience of the professional, and, to some extent, the professional's costs. The plumbing company we use charges about $80/hour. The guy that comes over gets some of that as there are overhead costs for the company.
I could also hire a fixit guy for some jobs that would charge $25/hour or do some fixed-price work.
The guys that teach at my club are terrible and parents that ask me for coaching for their kids I steer away from the coaches there.
I could also hire a fixit guy for some jobs that would charge $25/hour or do some fixed-price work.
The guys that teach at my club are terrible and parents that ask me for coaching for their kids I steer away from the coaches there.
Why is this even a question? Clubs support their pros by giving them exclusivity to teach in exchange for a percentage. It is a symbiotic relationship. If you play there you are likely to take lessons there and vice versa.
Non profits have just as much right to revenue generated at their location as a for profit one.
Non profits have just as much right to revenue generated at their location as a for profit one.
Excluding court fees, right?
I charge 20euro for an hour lesson. Would you trust me?
I would have to see you play.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
A professional coach would be certified by an authority and his or her identity would be easily knowable, so it's up to the centre to check rather than simply banning everyone.
How do you know someone is really a parent, in any event, as it's no easier to identify such than to identify a friend from a coach.
Coaching franchises at courts are perhaps inevitable but they do tend to get a lot of court time for the money they contribute.
How do you know someone is really a parent, in any event, as it's no easier to identify such than to identify a friend from a coach.
Coaching franchises at courts are perhaps inevitable but they do tend to get a lot of court time for the money they contribute.
Quite easy. Parents are the ones harshly criticizing the kid, with the kid making sarcastic comments to get even, like Dad, you can't even feed properly.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Yes, well, that may do it but you still have to waste your time observing.
I had a situation where there was an informal coach doing some social tennis group work in a very unpopular time slot who got booted out.
The professional coach who came in lasted slightly more than a month before the cost benefit equation kicked in.
These centres really need to ask themselves the question whether the activities are really interfering with their designated coaches before they act.
The courts are now mostly empty at that time.
I had a situation where there was an informal coach doing some social tennis group work in a very unpopular time slot who got booted out.
The professional coach who came in lasted slightly more than a month before the cost benefit equation kicked in.
These centres really need to ask themselves the question whether the activities are really interfering with their designated coaches before they act.
The courts are now mostly empty at that time.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
easy answer - LeeD, of course! because with LeeD, you'll get more than free tennis lessons. you'll also get free football, basketball, wrestling, windsurfing, surfing, basket weaving, sewing, cooking and who knows what other advice... :twisted:
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Chotobaka
Hall of Fame
Some facilities are based on a public courts/private management model where an annual fee is paid to the public entity by the for-profit management company.
In any event, I view coaches who take chunks of time on public courts as squatters. Unless they are sanctioned by whoever operates the courts, they need to look elsewhere and pay for their court time like every other legit coach does. Bottom feeders.
In any event, I view coaches who take chunks of time on public courts as squatters. Unless they are sanctioned by whoever operates the courts, they need to look elsewhere and pay for their court time like every other legit coach does. Bottom feeders.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I agree with this.
In our club, the group lessons are at scheduled times so players can avoid the courts at these times as there are more balls flying over the partitions from group lessons in addition to more noise. One coach tired playing loud rock music during his lessons - that did not go over very well.
The club where my daughter took lessons were good about cleaning up the balls before the next block of time. I've had issues where there was a lesson on before my scheduled time where they started cleaning up the balls when I showed up to claim the court.
You are missing the point. The club gets a big cut of the lessons for the pros that work there. The dues, fees, etc. that you pay would have to be much higher if they allowed competing coaches who could undercut their price.
Your lower court fees are being subsidized by those who pay the club's pros for lessons.
The food prices are exorbitant because you can starve or either eat their food.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
They have a captive audience and can charge higher prices. Similar to concession stands at high-school football stadiums and city-run public stadiums. Same thing with tennis clubs, sports arenas, and even malls.
I highly doubt that. When they build public facilities, it's through bonds or higher taxes. Either way, the public is paying for it whether they are using it or not. At the public skate rink that was built in my hometown, they charged residents less and the prices were reasonable for admission. At my gym, they charge $60 per month and a new member fee. There's also personal trainers that you can hire for a ridiculous amount. Anyways, my point is these facilities are following a certain business model. No one will pay 60 bucks to skate or 100 per hour for skate lessons for little suzie.
Yes, that's what i said. Charging higher prices is called gouging.
mightyrick
Legend
This thread makes me understand more clearly why many governments have problems. The mooching mentality by some individuals and their justifications for doing so cause breakdowns in the system.
Some people who provide services will do whatever it takes to game the system and mooch in order to increase their profit margin and/or position against their own competitors. Honestly -- it stinks. Of course, mooching off the government is considered OK because the government is considered inherently evil by these ideologues.
Worse, there are many citizens who hold this ideology and don't even understand why it is wrong. Every man out for himself.
People wonder why taxes are so high. Could it be because countries are rife with profiteering corporate moochers who have no problem using publicly funded resources for their own private profiteering initiatives... which artificially creates scarcity and drives up demand and therefore drives up facility prices... and therefore drives up costs and therefore taxes?
I really wish they'd teach government economics in school so that people could understand the real damage that private profiteering moochers do to the public at large.
Some people who provide services will do whatever it takes to game the system and mooch in order to increase their profit margin and/or position against their own competitors. Honestly -- it stinks. Of course, mooching off the government is considered OK because the government is considered inherently evil by these ideologues.
Worse, there are many citizens who hold this ideology and don't even understand why it is wrong. Every man out for himself.
People wonder why taxes are so high. Could it be because countries are rife with profiteering corporate moochers who have no problem using publicly funded resources for their own private profiteering initiatives... which artificially creates scarcity and drives up demand and therefore drives up facility prices... and therefore drives up costs and therefore taxes?
I really wish they'd teach government economics in school so that people could understand the real damage that private profiteering moochers do to the public at large.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
It's okay when governments do it.
The fastest way for me to get to work is to take a toll road but I refuse to take it - I take an alternate route which takes me a couple more minutes but it's a more relaxing ride.
The city could just tax the whole population to raise money for things but the approach of location-based taxes means that the people that use the facility contribute more to it for some things.
The system is working for you, so what is the reason to complain? You don't pay the toll and you don't use the road.
The flip side is that there are some common resources that have to be maintained. I don't use the gym or the baseball field in the public park where the tennis courts are located, so can I complain about it? Most of the park crowd does not play tennis, so why should they pay for the courts?
Everything cannot be built and maintained on a case-by-case basis. There is a certain minimum scale needed to lower costs, and people cannot be opting out of one or the other on a selective basis. It doesn't work that way at private facilities either. I cannot become a member of a country club and refuse to pay the part of my membership dues which goes into cleaning the women's bathroom because I don't use it.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
A private business can do whatever it wants to.
A government operation may elect a body or person to manage things or it may hire someone to manage things. But the management reflects the will of the people, or its apathy. If you don't like it in a government operation, then complain, get elected, start a petition, etc.
Our local club used to have a policy where you could use courts that weren't booked. Then it changed to increase revenue. A few people talked to some of the BOD members and got them to change it back to how it used to be.
You can try the same approach with the school board, town council, mayor's office, etc. Talking on a tennis forum really isn't going to change anything.
A toll road is one thing. A troll bridge is another. In the Bay area, it costs 5 dollars to cross it, and it could take at least another hour if u wanted to drive around it. It's highway robbery since you really have no choice but to cross it.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I personally think that toll roads are terrible - pollution, waiting, expenses for toll collectors, etc. The gasoline tax seems far more efficient. But politicians seem to be deathly afraid of raising it. My state has a proposal to raise it a few cents and we'd lose one of our toll booths in town (we have three) as part of the deal. Basically our town has toll booths all over the place to pay for road construction all over the state.
They kicked out this mom for being a personal trainer for her son and then lied about it. Lots of overzealous people.
link
newpball
Legend
That is just ridiculous.
Parents should be able to teach their children at all times. I hope she brings on a lawsuit and get awarded punitive damages.
