Ben Shelton and the Rush to Negative Judgment (among many)

[michael valek]

What?

Seems pretty straightforwardly explained to me

 

[MichaelNadal]

Ben Cringeton.

 

[I get cramps]

It's people with fragile egos who can't take their opponents celebrating a deserved awarded point projecting their "morals" onto the sport.

This makes up a prime instance of a logical fallacy as you extrapolate conclusions that inevitably originate from invalid premises. How can you ascertain the thoughts of those to whom you attribute "fragile egos"?


Please jot down the propositions you use to connect and intertwine your reasoning and arguments for bolstering your assertions.

 

[ballamaz]

The (over) celebration is a direct consequence of his outlook on himself as a tennis player, that he demonstrated in the press conference.

If he can sort out the latter then that will go some way to correcting the former.

OTOH over celebration is something particular to Americans especially in the entertainment industry and perhaps Shelton is inclined this way.

 

[Winners or Errors]

The hang up the phone celebration is fine if done when he accomplishes something. He was doing it when tying the 3rd set at 4 after getting demolished in the first two sets then he was letting out roars and throwing stares at Djokovic at various times late in the 3rd set. Djokovic had every right to mock him for that and I'm happy as hell that he did it, the kid needed a big slice of humble pie and Djokovic did it in a savage way. As far as the net exchange is concerned, why is Djokovic getting flak for it? Shelton barely even looked at him then walked away immediately. It was frosty from both sides.

Personally, I think some animosity and controversy in the sport is a good thing but this kid had it coming to him the way he acted in that match. He's really young so it's probably just a maturity thing but he needs to use some tact with these celebrations and he used it poorly in this match.

Literally a kid trying to pump himself up and urge himself to do something other than what he did in that match, which is ...fold in three pretty routine sets. Nothing wrong with that. If anything, I find Djokovic's reaction to be excessive. He should have simply laughed and used the sense of humor we all know he has. Instead... He got irritated. He got bitter. It's not the first time. Imagine Fed's reaction: bemused. Imagine Rafa's reaction: nothing. It's what makes Djoker = Lendl. Lendl would have reacted just the way Djoker did + perhaps done something nasty in the locker room after the match. So maybe not quite Lendl.

 

[BeatlesFan]

OTOH over celebration is something particular to Americans especially in the entertainment industry and perhaps Shelton is inclined this way.

Thesis destroyed by watching these Americans winning slams and hardly reacting at all:

 

[Omega_7000]

Guys criticizing him are the same ones that applaud this behavior

 

[Impressario]

That handshake was no colder than the FO 2021 one when Djokovic beat Nadal. Short and professional. People are reading too much into nothing.

 

[a10best]

yea he rubs me the wrong way the minute i saw him.. i guess he's good for the sport or whatever. i prefer Kyrgios over him.

Being blunt with a british, thick irish or aussie accent is a good moneymaker because americans love it. Gervais, Cowell, Scary spice,.

Wow I never see those djoker videos above. Djoker has far worse reactions than Ben. Next time Ben should give him a kung fu hulk grip handshake.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

If you're gonna be cocky and annoying, at least win some slams first.

 

[Aurellian]

Mos of you people are small time and petty haters....my man made $775,000 in one afternoon at the age of 20 by smacking a little yellow ball!

None of you will do the same. Play on playa...My guess is we will seem him at LIV in Miami with Tua and Jay Z dropping 50k with the hottest IG model ever and then we will really see the haters come out hate.

 

[Prokne]

I have a bigger problem with a guy that has won 23 grand slams celebrating points won against a guy he's beaten half a dozen times while he is ahead 2 sets to 0, and then in another match, mocks a 19yo in his first year on tour.

 

[PURETENNISsense]

displeasure with his mock-Shelton's-phone-gesture on the way to the net.

This was stupid from Djokovic.... I mean really, he's too old to be mocking players like this. I remember when he used to mock players serves like a decade and a half ago when he was super young. But not at the end of the match like that... smh

 

[RaulRamirez]

This was stupid from Djokovic.... I mean really, he's too old to be mocking players like this. I remember when he used to mock players serves like a decade and a half ago when he was super young. But not at the end of the match like that... smh

I think the two things are very different. I found nothing wrong with the impressions, and think the players should've rolled with them.

 

[PURETENNISsense]

I think the two things are very different. I found nothing wrong with the impressions, and think the players should've rolled with them.

The serve impressions were funny to me, I thought it was great. But the Shelton mockery is different. Sorry, I wasn't clear. Was trying to state that when he was younger doing things like the impressions was appropriate, but at his current age and stature, it was immature what he did at the end of the semis

 

[RaulRamirez]

The serve impressions were funny to me, I thought it was great. But the Shelton mockery is different. Sorry, I wasn't clear. Was trying to state that when he was younger doing things like the impressions was appropriate, but at his current age and stature, it was immature what he did at the end of the semis

We agree on Novak's phone gesture (wrong) and also on the impressions (harmless fun). Perhaps, the only separation is that I didn't factor in his age on either.

 

[Clay lover]

This makes up a prime instance of a logical fallacy as you extrapolate conclusions that inevitably originate from invalid premises. How can you ascertain the thoughts of those to whom you attribute "fragile egos"?


Please jot down the propositions you use to connect and intertwine your reasoning and arguments for bolstering your assertions.

Oh it's simply my guess based on human nature, I cannot claim to know. All I can say is that "he's too boisterous, he's celebrating every point, he's disrespectful" are rather weak reasons to warrant the strong complaints against him that I suspect some other things - such as a fragile ego being hurt in the past - are at play. I also have no logical explanation to justify why I don't think the complaints above warrant a moral condemnation - I just feel they aren't sufficient - but feel free to point out the contrary

If I have offended you or anyone who didn't feel this way with this assumption I apologize. But I sure won't agree that there's anything wrong with what he did - that's a separate matter.

 

[I get cramps]

Oh it's simply my guess based on human nature, I cannot claim to know. All I can say is that "he's too boisterous, he's celebrating every point, he's disrespectful" are rather weak reasons to warrant the strong complaints against him that I suspect some other things - such as a fragile ego being hurt in the past - are at play.

Your suppositions and assertions are devoid of empirical evidence and impervious to reason, science, or logic.

What privileged knowledge of whatever "human nature" is do you have? In the hypothetical scenario that you possess it, would not your assertions be inexorably reliant on synecdoches?

If you were to reference the elaborate psychopathologies of Jaspers or Kurt Schneider as arguments of authority, you would only be incurring another kind of logical fallacy (argumentum ab auctoritate).

Demonstrate to me earnestly how you reach your logical deductions.

 

[Clay lover]

Your suppositions and assertions are devoid of empirical evidence and impervious to reason, science, or logic.

What privileged knowledge of whatever "human nature" is do you have? In the hypothetical scenario that you possess it, would not your assertions be inexorably reliant on synecdoches?

If you were to reference the elaborate psychopathologies of Jaspers or Kurt Schneider as arguments of authority, you would only be incurring another kind of logical fallacy (argumentum ab auctoritate).

Demonstrate to me earnestly how you reach your logical deductions.

Oh I don't have any, not gonna claim I do.

I can admit I have failed to justify my argument.

 

[Georgepeppard007]

I don't know all that much about Ben Shelton. We all know that in his first full season as a pro, he made the QFs at the AO, and just now, the semis at the US Open.
His dad, Bryan (who I vaguely recall on the tour in the late 80s, early-to-mid 90s....made it into the top 55 or so) coached him at the U of Florida, and I think, is still his coach.
And Ben is off to a great start. Only 20, he's #19 in the live rankings and #17 in the live race.

He's also become a lightning rod for criticism, and I find the criticism wildly disproportionate to his "offenses", or alleged offenses. As far as I can tell, he celebrates too frequently for many, and too boisterously at that. And, and, apparently, he did (does?) this hang-up-the-phone celebration gesture after matches.
Holy Crap, the world is coming to an end. It's the ruination of tennis. Our society needs more organized religion." I wish I was exaggerating on that last one.
What the actual ____?!

Why are we so quick to rush to judgment? Has he ever had any true arguments with other players? Cursed out loud? Swung his racket at the umpire's feet after a ,match? Had any tirades against officials? Even smashed rackets? Had any off-the-court incidents? (Some of this, I don't know, but I haven't seen or heard of anything.)

I was rooting for Novak in his (winning) semi against Ben Shelton, but I voiced my displeasure with his mock-Shelton's-phone-gesture on the way to the net. And as a big Djokovic fan, one thing I admire about him is that for whatever emotions he displays during matches, he is almost always quite gracious at the net, win or lose. But the handshake here was rather cold.
And then, a majority of posters jumped on Shelton's press conference afterward when he actually minimized any silly controversy there. Why? Because he didn't bow down to Djokovic enough, when asked how he felt playing against him. Ben answered kind of honestly that he treated it as playing against any other opponent. Something like that, which is the mindset one needs to adopt. He wasn't giving an evaluation of Djokovic's career or pretending he was on the same level. I mourn the lack of reading and listening comprehension skills - here and everywhere.

There's way too much to say here, and I have to run, but can we ever just treat every single player as a human being. None are perfect, none are evil. And in this case, please wake me up, when Ben Shelton has one on-court outburst even comparable to the hundreds exhibited by players such as Connors, McEnroe, and even early-career Agassi. But we get people in our sights and just tear them down. For what, and why? And there are some posters who really need to critically analyze their "why".

Enjoy the tennis...if you can. I've heard that there's a big final today between two amazing players.

Just read his body language and demeanor. He is arrogant and self-centered. Total opposite of Alcaraz.

 

[Subway Tennis]

He is a big strong young man.. experience and tennis ability will grow as more ATP court time occurs..
Perhaps folks put an expectation on him of NCAA champion straight to Grand Slam Champion..a fairly aggressive stretch goal..
His results in his 1st year isn't to shabby..
To loose to the GOAT on Ash in the Simi..
Most don't even earn that chance..

Agree. I haven’t seen as much of Shelton as others have on here, but I’m already a big fan.

He seems like a good young man from a good family.

His game is explosive and very entertaining to watch, and he is getting the results to back it up. It’s his first proper season on tour he has already gone deep at 2 majors.

I thought Ben was impressive in the press conference after. He was distancing himself from any drana about the way Djokovic reacted by saying that Djokovic won so he can do what he likes, but measured that with the comment about imitation being the highest form pf flattery, just to remind people that Djokovic did kind of play himself with his antics after the match.

 

[DSH]

Ben Cringeton.

Novak "Phonyvic".

 

[jm1980]

Guys criticizing him are the same ones that applaud this behavior

There's nothing wrong with this, he's clearly facing away from Berrettini

 

[beezer12]

I already had problems with his over the top celebrations. I just don't like it, and on top of that he gets a pass by commentators because 1. He is American and 2. He is young. I don't like that.

I also didn't like Nole's mocking but the kid deserves at least some bashing according to me.

touch grass

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Shelton is 12-20 this year.
It’s funny how holger rune gets a bad rap for being petty and immature. Atleast he’s won something when he was 19 (2 atp titles ).

Yet we find excuses how Shelton is the victim here (well some do).

 

[a10best]

I heard from people who were there that Ben shouted "this guy has no serve" and "this guy has no game" (for Djokovic) to his box. It seems that many people heard it including Djokovic.

If Ben can do that you know Kyrios is just waiting for his chance to chirp even more. You can't allow trash talking to the player's bench or coaches. It's not basketball where that's a technical foul and $25K.

If Ben did that he should get an automatic game penalty, loss of serve, and an apology to all in attendance on a mic, no drinking for a set, and help roll the balls to the ballboys and girls on changeovers for 1 set.

 

[Rosstour]

I don't like his celebrations. Screams too much. Looks childish.

Brother please. You worship a guy who struts around the court screaming and ripping his shirt and making wild faces. This criticism carries zero weight coming from any Djoko fans

 

[BeatlesFan]

Guys criticizing him are the same ones that applaud this behavior

It's not a good analogy. Djokovic has rewritten the record book of tennis. Ben Shelton has never won a single tournament and usually loses second round in every event. So Novak gets a lot more latitude in his behavior and he backs up his antics with huge wins. Shelton wins nothing.