Better Career: Guga vs Rafter

[johnny ballgame]

Slam Titles
Guga - 3
Rafter - 2

Slam Runner-Up
Guga - 0
Rafter - 2

Singles Titles
Guga - 20
Rafter - 11

Weeks at #1
Guga - 43
Rafter - 1

Davis Cup Titles
Guga - 0
Rafter - 0 (Runner-Up in 2001)

Doubles Titles
Guga - 8
Rafter - 10

 

[MEAC_ALLAMERICAN]

Guga had the most unlucky career in terms of injuries. But both are great guys, and role models, a department where each are a level above the rest. I can't vote on this one


And I think both can and will walk away from the game, knowing that they gave it all they could.

 

[vbranis]

IMO, Guga had the better career because he had more Slams, career titles, and stayed much longer at #1. Also, his Masters Cup win in 2000 was amazing; he beat an in-form Sampras in the semis and then backed it up with a straight-set win over Agassi. It's too bad, though, that he never even made a Slam semifinal aside from the FO.

We'll miss you, Guga!

 

[CAM178]

Normally I'd offer an opinion, but these two guys are both winners in my book. Both are such absolute gentleman, and so unbelievably nice, that I think they both had great careers.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Davis Cup Titles
Guga - 0
Rafter - 0 (Runner-Up in '99)

Australia won the davis cup in '99. Rafter didn't play in the final, but played throughout the year that year. Not sure how these things are interpreted, but in my mind he does have a davis cup title (in pro team sports, you get a ring if you are part of the team, even if you don't play in the championship games)

It's a tough call, but my vote goes to Rafter. He made the semis of 3 of the 4majors, & made the final twice of the most important major(Wimbledon)

Love Guga, but the FO has so many 1 slam wonders from that event, its hard to compare 3 FOs to 2 USOs(which has very few 1 slam wonders) + 2 W finals.

Also Rafter beat both Agassi & Sampras, the 2 best players of the 90s, in majors, which not many can say.

And I don't think the #1 meant as much in their time, guys were switching every other week it seemed. Both Djokovic & Nadal have reached higher point totals as #2 & #3 than Guga ever reached as #1.

Its a shame that both were so hampered by injury(people forget that Rafter was plagued by shoulder issues throughout his career, even when he won his 1st major in '97, he was already talking about issues with his shoulder. He also had to retire during his 1st round match at the '99 USO-after winning the previous 2 years-& he retired after having a great year in '01 because the shoulder made it too hard to continue to play day in, day out, even though he clearly was still one of the best players in the world)

Both had a lot of great tennis left in them.

Their stories(& Joachim Johansson) should help remind some that reaching your potential in pro sport also involves being lucky enough not experience serious injury.

One other stat on these 2:
Masters Series
Guga-5(I think Guga's best match ever was vs Rafter in the final of Cincinnati)
Rafter-2

 

[laurie]

Slam Titles
Guga - 3
Rafter - 2

Slam Runner-Up
Guga - 0
Rafter - 2

Singles Titles
Guga - 20
Rafter - 11

Weeks at #1
Guga - 43
Rafter - 1

Davis Cup Titles
Guga - 0
Rafter - 0 (Runner-Up in '99)

Doubles Titles
Guga - 8
Rafter - 10

Just to inform you, Australia won the Davis Cup in 1999 beating France, Phillippoussis was the man of the hour. Rafter didn't play in the final rubbers due to injury.

 

[laurie]

Normally I'd offer an opinion, but these two guys are both winners in my book. Both are such absolute gentleman, and so unbelievably nice, that I think they both had great careers.

I agree, that's why I won't vote on the poll, if it does become a heated debate, I will say it now - it will be pointless because both were great players.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

he beat an in-form Sampras in the semis and then backed it up with a straight-set win over Agassi.

i wouldn't say an in-form sampras... he just got bageled by hewitt in RR !
(which happened rarely during his career)

It's a tough call, but my vote goes to Rafter. He made the semis of 3 of the 4majors, & made the final twice of the most important major(Wimbledon)

he made the SF of all majors !
AO 2001
RG 1997
W 1999-2000-2001
USO 1997-1998

 

[Moose Malloy]

i wouldn't say an in-form sampras... he just got bageled by hewitt in RR !
(which happened rarely during his career)

Well, Sampras lost a RR match every year he won that event(including a pretty bad loss to Agassi in '99), so I wouldn't read too much into it, most expected him to beat Guga, it was his turf(he won that event 5 times)

he made the SF of all majors !

Yeah forgot about the '97 FO, didn't everyone make the SF that year? Talk about a wide-open event.

Here are the only players(19) to reach the SF of all 4 majors in the Open Era:

Laver
Roche
Rosewall
Okker
Connors
McEnroe
Gerulaitis
Lendl
Edberg
Becker
Mecir
Agassi
Sampras
Courier
Stich
Rafter
Federer
Nalbandian
Djokovic

 

[daddy]

^^^ Mooseplease finals. Who are the players to reach the finals of all four slams in open era ? Excapt Federer ?

because I think Djokovic has a chance of acomplishing this. I really hope he will be in som eseriously great crowd apart from Agassi and Federer.

 

[PROTENNIS63]

Both were excellent players but in the end, Guga did have the slightly better career.

 

[edmondsm]

IMO, Guga had the better career because he had more Slams, career titles, and stayed much longer at #1. Also, his Masters Cup win in 2000 was amazing; he beat an in-form Sampras in the semis and then backed it up with a straight-set win over Agassi. It's too bad, though, that he never even made a Slam semifinal aside from the FO.

We'll miss you, Guga!

You convinced me to vote for Guga. If Rafter had won the 01' Wimbledon it would be a completely different story. But he got his shot with Sampras being out of the tourney and couldn't put away Ivanicevic, who basically came out of retirement to win that tournament.

 

[edmondsm]

^^^ Mooseplease finals. Who are the players to reach the finals of all four slams in open era ? Excapt Federer ?

because I think Djokovic has a chance of acomplishing this. I really hope he will be in som eseriously great crowd apart from Agassi and Federer.

Agassi
Federer
Lendl
Edberg
Laver
Courier

that's all I can think of.

 

[Grimjack]

Total US Opens + Wimbledons:

Rafter 2, Guga 0.

That's all you need to know for any player of the modern era to determine his greatness relative to another player. If that number is a tie, then the first tiebreak is total number of slam wins. But it's laughable to try to put the French and Australian on equal footing with the two big boys.

Semifinals and finals losses are irrelevant in determining a player's place in history. Every GS tournament has a winner and 127 losers.

 

[Gundam]

Oh, please don't start this kind of Poll. Guga and Rafter (and Edberg) are my favorites and don't want to see one over the other. Anyway, I just voted for Rafter to make it 7:7 even...sorry.

 

[edmondsm]

Total US Opens + Wimbledons:

Rafter 2, Guga 0.

That's all you need to know for any player of the modern era to determine his greatness relative to another player. If that number is a tie, then the first tiebreak is total number of slam wins. But it's laughable to try to put the French and Australian on equal footing with the two big boys.

Geez, don't tell that to Borg. I'm pretty sure he liked winning the French.

Semifinals and finals losses are irrelevant in determining a player's place in history. Every GS tournament has a winner and 127 losers.

Do you count the number of tour titles? Is a win in Scottsdale, AZ better than than making a Wimbledon final?:-?

 

[Gundam]

Guga-5(I think Guga's best match ever was vs Rafter in the final of Cincinnati)
Rafter-2

Guga vs. Rafter? How was the match up? When was it? 1999? Two coolest dudes on one court! I have a recording of Edberg vs. Rafter. It's very fascinating, too.

 

[pj80]

H2H

4-4

2001 Indianapolis
IN, U.S.A. Hard F Rafter 4-2 RET

2001 Cincinnati TMS
Ohio, USA Hard F Kuerten 6-1 6-3

2001 AUS v BRA WG QF
Florianapolis Clay RR Kuerten 4-6 6-4 7-6(1) 2-1 RET

2000 Paris Indoor
France Carpet R16 Kuerten 6-4 7-6(4)

2000 Lyon
France Carpet Q Rafter 6-3 6-4

2000 Hong Kong
China Hard Q Rafter 7-6(4) 6-4

2000 AUS v BRA SF
Brisbane, Australia Grass RR Rafter 6-3 6-2 6-3

1999 Rome
Italy Clay F Kuerten 6-4 7-5 7-6(6)

 

[Jonas]

Both were awesome.
I think it's safe to say that Guga had the better overall career.
Guga became a major threat on hard courts later in his career before the injury.
again, both were great, but IMO, I would rather have GK's results.

 

[ndtennis]

hands down its guga, no question

 

[BeHappy]

obviously Guga.

 

[johnny ballgame]

Australia won the davis cup in '99. Rafter didn't play in the final, but played throughout the year that year. Not sure how these things are interpreted, but in my mind he does have a davis cup title (in pro team sports, you get a ring if you are part of the team, even if you don't play in the championship games)

My bad, good point on the ring if you're part of the team thing. Didn't Rafter lose a big Davis Cup Final to France? What year was that?

Also saw that Cincy match vs Rafter. It's one I often point to when people say Guga was just a dirtballer.

 

[johnny ballgame]

But it's laughable to try to put the French and Australian on equal footing with the two big boys.

It is not possible for me to disagree with you more vigorously.

 

[johnny ballgame]

Oh, please don't start this kind of Poll. Guga and Rafter (and Edberg) are my favorites and don't want to see one over the other. Anyway, I just voted for Rafter to make it 7:7 even...sorry.

Thanks for voting, I knew there would be a reaction like this. Quite possibly the two most well-liked (by fans and peers) players in the history of the game. Guga was my favorite, by the way. As Moose and others noted, both careers sadly cut short by injury. Neither guy could quite get it done in another slam. Lots of similarities.

 

[johnny ballgame]

Just to inform you, Australia won the Davis Cup in 1999 beating France, Phillippoussis was the man of the hour. Rafter didn't play in the final rubbers due to injury.

My bad, corrected now. I'm honestly not sure if we can say that Rafter has a Davis Cup... even if he played in earlier ties that year.

 

[Gundam]

Thanks for voting, I knew there would be a reaction like this. Quite possibly the two most well-liked (by fans and peers) players in the history of the game. Guga was my favorite, by the way. As Moose and others noted, both careers sadly cut short by injury. Neither guy could quite get it done in another slam. Lots of similarities.

Ah, I was half-joking. Thanks for the thread. It's nice to see two most likeable gentlemen in one thread! Will we have another one in near future?

 

[Leelord337]

The thing in Common w/Guga and Rafter is they both had winning records over Roger Federer.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

My bad, good point on the ring if you're part of the team thing. Didn't Rafter lose a big Davis Cup Final to France? What year was that?

the other australia-france final was in 2001, in australia (on grass).
but he defeated grosjean in straight sets on the 1st day. him and hewitt lost the double... but he was (once again) injured and couldn't play the ultimate single on sunday. that's a pity because i'm sure he would have easily beaten escude...
http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=R255&playernum2=E140
arthurs played instead, and lost. so france won.

 

[rightytopspin79]

I would have to say that Guga had a slightly better career. He was able to stay at number one for more weeks. Rafter was close to getting that elusive Wimby title but ran into some players on a roll. I mean its really a toss up, I enjoyed watching both players but in the end Guga was more successful in a statistical aspect.

 

[matchmaker]

Guga,

Basically because in the short time he was around (about 5 years) he won RG 3 times, ended the year as nr 1 as some have already stated after an incredible Master's where he beat prime Sampras and Agassi on a fast surface. I feel he would have won a couple of majors more and on different surfaces if he had been able to continue to compete.
Rafter then again has almost never been injured as far as I know and has had a very long time and many attempts to win his slams. He is nowhere as near to being a great player as Kuerten.

 

[matchmaker]

Correction,

Rafter did have occasional injuries and problems but not at the same level as Guga IMO. If I am not mistaken it took him also a more attempts to win a Slam and he won it at a later age than Guga, I believe

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Rafter then again has almost never been injured as far as I know and has had a very long time and many attempts to win his slams. He is nowhere as near to being a great player as Kuerten.

are you joking ? :roll:
or maybe you don't know far enough


(just teasing... but pat's injuries have been already mentionned in this thread, post #5 for instance)

 

[rafa_prestige89]

Slam Titles
Guga - 3
Rafter - 2

Singles Titles
Guga - 20
Rafter - 11

Weeks at #1
Guga - 43
Rafter - 1

It's so obvious....

 

[drakulie]

guga by a nose on this one.

 

[Moose Malloy]

it's funny how many here say 'clearly' guga was better. If Rafter won the '01 W final (which he came very close to) would this poll even exist? It would be a no-contest. Amazing that just one match can so change how a player is regarded.

Rafter did have occasional injuries and problems but not at the same level as Guga IMO

If I had to say which player had their prime years more affected by injuries, I would say Rafter.

Just look up his player activity.

 

[AndrewD]

Agassi
Federer
Lendl
Edberg
Laver
Courier

that's all I can think of.

Ken Rosewall (both pre and post 1968 ).

 

[Gugafan_Redux]

There's more class and heart in these two players than the current top 20 combined.

I refuse to pit them against one another. I raise a glass to both careers, even if it's just morning coffee.

 

[The_Spartan]

I chose Rafterman

He had a better record in Slams with more variety of surface, success on grass, clay and hard court.

Guga was a clay court specialist with minimal success on hard court, but overall disapointing results on other surfaces and slams.

Slams aside:

Rafter - 3 SF appearances and two Finals appearances at the Aussie, RG and Wimby.

Guga - 4 QF appearances (US, Wimby and RG)

-

I loved both players.

 

[johnny ballgame]

it's funny how many here say 'clearly' guga was better. If Rafter won the '01 W final (which he came very close to) would this poll even exist?

If I had to say which player had their prime years more affected by injuries, I would say Rafter.

Moose - I agree that it's close, that's why I started the thread.

Not sure I agree with your last point. Guga was only a few months removed from #1 in the world when his hip problems began (remember he played on it for a long time before the first surgery). Let's just say they both were very unlucky (as you've already mentioned).

 

[hollywood9826]

I say Rafter, becasue of my blatant wimbeldon Bias. Plus Rafter would rock the sunscreen on the nose thing sometimes. Who does that?

Guga was the man though. Really tough to compare but people have reasons why they believe wht the do.

 

[federerfanatic]

I am more impressed with Rafter's versatility of playing well across various surfaces. I find Kuerten overrated by alot of people since he wasnt that impressive an all surface player. I find it funny how some people who gush on Kuerten also mock Nadal's lack of all surface ability yet Nadal trumps Kuerten in spades in this regard.

Rafter has won 2 U.S Opens on fast hard courts in back to back years, been in 2 Wimbledon finals and another semi in 3 consecutive years on the old fast grass, been in a French Open semis on clay, and been in an Australian Open semi on slow high bouncing hard court. Kuerten by comparision has been to 2 U.S Open quarterfinals and could not take advantage of reasonably good draws to go farther, has once been to the quarters of Wimbledon (a good performance for him there), and never gotten past the 3rd round of the Australian Open on what should be his 2nd best slam in theory (a slow nice bouncing hard court). Kuerten has some good Masters performances on hard courts but it is the slams that matter most and unfortunately he fell short of doing much there. As well whether people like it or not Wimbledon and the U.S Open are the two biggest events and Rafter who had far more success at both.

Rafter also had to battle Sampras and Agassi at their peak, a rising Hewitt, Ivanisevic at Wimbledon, Chang, and others. Kuerten had some competition on clay, but not the level of competition Rafter had on non-clay surfaces at the time. Muster and Bruguera were already past their peak even by the spring of 97 and his shock first French Open win, let alone by 99-2001 when he had the bulk of his dominance on clay, and that leaves Moya, Corretja, and Ferrero as his biggest opposition on clay. Pretty good but the field on clay in the early-mid 90s was tougher then the one Kuerten faced when Kuerten really dominated on clay.

So my answer is Rafter.

 

[Grimjack]

I am more impressed with Rafter's versatility of playing well across various surfaces. I find Kuerten overrated by alot of people since he wasnt that impressive an all surface player. I find it funny how some people who gush on Kuerten also mock Nadal's lack of all surface ability yet Nadal trumps Kuerten in spades in this regard.

Kuerten -- career tournament wins at any of the tour's four meaningful non-clay events: 1.

Nadal -- career tournament wins at any of the tour's four meaningful non-clay events: 0.

Therefore, Kuerten was a greater all surface player than Nadal. QED.

And before you embarrass yourself, please spare us the details of any of Nadal's Wimbledon LOSSES or Miami/Indian Wells glorified exhibition achievements. There are five tournaments a year that are worth a ####, and Kuerten won two of them. Nadal has not.

 

[johnny ballgame]

Rafter also had to battle Sampras and Agassi at their peak, a rising Hewitt,

So did Guga. All these players won multiple slams while Guga was on tour. Guga and Rafter basically played in the same era.

 

[federerfanatic]

So did Guga. All these players won multiple slams while Guga was on tour. Guga and Rafter basically played in the same era.

What I mean is those are the guys who were major contenders at the events Rafter was contending for titles (Wimbledon, U.S Open). They were not the guys who were major contenders at the only slam event Kuerten was contending for titles (French Open). Sampras was not a major contender at the French Open, especialy from 1997 onwards when he was a total non-factor there. Neither was Hewitt really. Neither was Rafter himself. Neither were players like Krajicek and Ivanisevic. Agassi is the only one who was among that group of players, but he and Kuerten never even played on clay. The players who Kuerten battled to try and win French Opens were a different group then the ones Rafter battled to try to win Wimbledon and U.S Opens.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Sf^4 !

Here are the only players(19) to reach the SF of all 4 majors in the Open Era:

Laver
Roche
Rosewall
Okker
Connors
McEnroe
Gerulaitis
Lendl
Edberg
Becker
Mecir
Agassi
Sampras
Courier
Stich
Rafter
Federer
Nalbandian
Djokovic

we can add safin to the list now... great career achievement, bravo marat !

(20 players now !)

 

[Deleted member 22147]

Why are you even asking this question? It is so obvious that it is Kuerten...Look at the facts you have provided and it is obvious, isn't it?

 

[CyBorg]

Mjaors are majors and Kuerten has more of them. That is a big deal.

He also has the fifth most important tournament to his name - the Masters Cup. Rafter doesn't.

More singles titles as well. Both players were good on various surfaces. I understand if perhaps Guga wasn't much outside of clay, but he was. Remember that time he beat Sampras on carpet? That was a big deal.

Both guys were arguably players of the year once. Rafter in 1998 and Guga in 2000, although only Guga was recognized as such, from what I can recall.

The Davis Cup stuff doesn't influence me much here. Who else was on Guga's team?

P.S. Moose makes a very good point about grand slam semifinals, but I am still siding with Guga here.

 

[carlos djackal]

IMO, Guga had the better career because he had more Slams, career titles, and stayed much longer at #1. Also, his Masters Cup win in 2000 was amazing; he beat an in-form Sampras in the semis and then backed it up with a straight-set win over Agassi. It's too bad, though, that he never even made a Slam semifinal aside from the FO.

We'll miss you, Guga!

I agree completely...

 

[laurie]

The point Moose malloy makes is interesting. Somehow I don't think Rafter himself views himself as a Davis cup winner because he never played in a winning team in a final itself - he tried again in 2000 and 2001 and also injured again on both ocassions if I remember correctly - that's bad luck.

As for Federerfanatic's views on Kuerten, Gustavo didn't do too badly on hardcourts - winner in Cincinnati in 2001 (beating Rafter actually), finalist in Miami in 2000, quarterfinalist in US Open in 1999, finalist in Canadian Open in 1997 (losing to Chris Woodruff!!!). The semifinal in the Masters Cup in Portugal in 2000 was one of the slowest indoor courts in history - designed no doubt for Kuerten to do well - he still played amazing semis and finals against Sampras and Agassi.

One thing that does surprise me is why Kuerten never did better on slow high bouncing rebound ace courts at the Aussie Open - I thought that surface would have suited his game.