I don't think the averaging starts until the third match, so the first two would both be standalone, but I'll leave it for @schmke to answer more definitively on that one.
Can a player be DQ'd (from 4.0) if he's self rated as 1 level below (3.5)?
- Thread starter pedrogcr
- Start date
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
DQ rating is always done on individual match performance, and only considers best 3 matches of the player. This is why DQ has to be well into the next level performance (more than half way through the next level). So a simple good looking performance does not necessarily create DQ.
If a player got bumbed down from 4.5, that clearly means according to the algorith he does not belong in 4.5. So just by beating him, a player does not get "well into" the 4.5 match level (even though arguably if he does that often enough, he will get a year end bump).
Note: edited to remove non-relevant info.
If a player got bumbed down from 4.5, that clearly means according to the algorith he does not belong in 4.5. So just by beating him, a player does not get "well into" the 4.5 match level (even though arguably if he does that often enough, he will get a year end bump).
Note: edited to remove non-relevant info.
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Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Writing about this was a mistake from my side. Deleting ...
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schmke
Legend
Incorrect on both points.
The first is just wrong. The second, it depends and sweeping general statements are usually not correct. Someone bumped down from 4.5 may be right at 4.00 in which case a 6-2,6-2 win over a 4.00 could generate a match rating, depending on your definition of "well", well into 4.5 range. Of course if the bumped down player is really a 3.85 now, then the win likely wouldn't result in a match rating "well" into 4.5 range.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
I don't see people getting DQ's for winning close matches at a level, even if the player wins all their matches. In fact, a close win against a weak player can lower your USTA dynamic rating. I see them more at districts/sectionals when you have self-rated players beating opponents at the top of the level.
Strikes generated from winning close matches in-level occur more in doubles than singles. The singles rating is straightforward - your opponent has a rating, you have a rating and your results speak for themselves and close matches with in-level players, even at the top of the level generally don't generate strikes. Doubles is a little more complex because now your partner also has a rating. If you play with a low rated (or "playing up") partner against opponents significantly higher than your partner's rating and beat them, even with a close score, you can get a high rating because your partner's rating lowers the expectations for your results.
To put some math to this, suppose your partner is 3.6 (i.e. low 4.0) and you and your opponents are all 4.0 (i.e. high 4.0). The average of the four of you is 3.9. If you beat them, say 6-3 6-3, that may generate a 0.2 match differential (I don't know what it is exactly), which means your team's match rating is 4.0 and your opponents' is 3.8 to keep a differential of 0.2 with an average of 3.9. But individually, the 0.4 rating differential is maintained, so you get a 4.2 and your partner gets a 3.8 for the match to average to 4.0. 4.2 is a borderline strike for the individual match but still may not be quite a strike once average with the last three is considered, but you can see how this is getting into the danger area from a close match, and that's after you have an established DNTRP. If you're in your first two matches, and you're partner is 3.6 and your opponents are 4.0 but you don't have a rating, then the algorithm doesn't touch your opponents and sets your match rating at 0.2 above their 4.0 rating for 4.2 and then sets your individual rating at a level to average to 4.2 with your partner's 3.6, which is 4.8. That's one of the easiest ways to strike out. A 4.0 S will never recover from a 4.8 match rating in the first two matches short of immediately throwing singles matches against weak opponents.
pedro
of course the self rated player can be disqualified, it depends upon who he beat and what was the score
just because he self rated 3.5 he could be a 4.5 or 5.0
i dont think USTA gives notification as they accumulate strikes, only when he has 3, and you get to forfeit
all the matches that individual plays.
happened to my team a while back.
i told the captain, we had an selfrated player, after i practiced against him, i told the captain,
"dude, he is much stronger than anyone on our team, he is clearly above our level."
the captain told me he could hide him in doubles.
well, after he played 5 matches, the captain got a notification that the self rated guy was disqualified.
it cost us 4 matches that we had won 3-2, we didnt make the playoffs, when we could easily have done
without the selfrated guy.
this captain didnt learn his lesson and got a reputation for recruiting unrated players.
in enjoyed playing, and winning matches against his teams, as they usually were at a high level
z
of course the self rated player can be disqualified, it depends upon who he beat and what was the score
just because he self rated 3.5 he could be a 4.5 or 5.0
i dont think USTA gives notification as they accumulate strikes, only when he has 3, and you get to forfeit
all the matches that individual plays.
happened to my team a while back.
i told the captain, we had an selfrated player, after i practiced against him, i told the captain,
"dude, he is much stronger than anyone on our team, he is clearly above our level."
the captain told me he could hide him in doubles.
well, after he played 5 matches, the captain got a notification that the self rated guy was disqualified.
it cost us 4 matches that we had won 3-2, we didnt make the playoffs, when we could easily have done
without the selfrated guy.
this captain didnt learn his lesson and got a reputation for recruiting unrated players.
in enjoyed playing, and winning matches against his teams, as they usually were at a high level
z
How do you prevent getting disqualified? I've self rated very low below my level, but Ive never played USTA. Recovering from surgery so I don't want to just "jump" into my level yet, as my shoulder still can't handle long matches. People keep telling me I'm going to be DQed if I play, and my one match was an unenjoyable blowout.
Also what happens when you get DQed? Any long term/permanent effects?
Also what happens when you get DQed? Any long term/permanent effects?
By self rating appropriately.
Play at the level where you have competitive matches. There's probably some USTA level where you'll win some and you'll lose some; play at that level.
If the only issue is with long matches, you should just play at "your" level. If you play down, you'll just win all your matches quickly, and that'll mean you're not in the right level. In general "longevity" will only come into play if the match is already close, so shouldn't affect which level you play at.
I mean, yeah, if you self-rated at a level where you're destroying everyone, then you'll get DQed, as you should be.
Your results for the season are reversed and you're immediately bumped to the next level. No permanent effects.
schmke
Legend
If you self-rated low because of concerns about your game due to surgery/recovery, that is fine. You can always play up if you self-rate too low, but if you self-rated too high then you may find yourself in a tough spot.
That said, if you do find that the lower level is well beneath your ability, the sporting thing to do is either elect to stop playing at that level and play up, or just keep playing normally and if you get DQ'd, you get DQ'd. There are some that will tank games/sets/matches and manage scores, but I would not advocate doing that.
You can read more on my blog (can't post the link here, but Google "Schmidt Computer Ratings NTRP FAQ" and you should find it), but the summary is if your results are clearly above the level you are playing at (your rating exceeds the strike threshold), you will get strikes and if you get three of them in 2022, you will be DQ'd from the level and promoted to the next level and must play at the new level immediately. Depending on the section you are in, all, some portion, or none of your past results will be reversed and turned into losses. Note, you will remain subject to strikes against your new rating/level the rest of the year and in theory could be DQ'd/promoted again, but this is exceedingly rare.
At year-end, you will still get a C rating like everyone else (no lower than the level you were promoted to) and from that point forward, you are treated like every other C rated player.
That said, if you do find that the lower level is well beneath your ability, the sporting thing to do is either elect to stop playing at that level and play up, or just keep playing normally and if you get DQ'd, you get DQ'd. There are some that will tank games/sets/matches and manage scores, but I would not advocate doing that.
You can read more on my blog (can't post the link here, but Google "Schmidt Computer Ratings NTRP FAQ" and you should find it), but the summary is if your results are clearly above the level you are playing at (your rating exceeds the strike threshold), you will get strikes and if you get three of them in 2022, you will be DQ'd from the level and promoted to the next level and must play at the new level immediately. Depending on the section you are in, all, some portion, or none of your past results will be reversed and turned into losses. Note, you will remain subject to strikes against your new rating/level the rest of the year and in theory could be DQ'd/promoted again, but this is exceedingly rare.
At year-end, you will still get a C rating like everyone else (no lower than the level you were promoted to) and from that point forward, you are treated like every other C rated player.
Thanks for the info guys. So it seems like no real consequences aside for what the team might suffer. I don't care at all about winning, I'm looking for competitive matches. Had originally thought I'd start lower and build up, but may just have to bump myself up.
I just answered the questions truthfully and got a beginner rank lol. If you didn't play in college and say your volleys are bad you end up with a 2.5 rating.... I get people's frustration when people are playing under level, but it is frustrating on both sides.
I just answered the questions truthfully and got a beginner rank lol. If you didn't play in college and say your volleys are bad you end up with a 2.5 rating.... I get people's frustration when people are playing under level, but it is frustrating on both sides.
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I agree that the self rating questions are not all that helpful and you can easily end up with an absurdly low self rating even after answering all the questions correctly.
BUT...
I'm not all that sympathetic since you are playing on a USTA team... and if you've ever practiced or hit with any of the guys on your team you would very quickly realize that you are way better than they are.
So if you truly care more about competitive matches than about winning, you would have recused yourself from the team there and then, and moved to a team at a higher level.
Yup that's why I've only played one match and am looking for advice in this thread. No ratings make sense to me. Someone claims they're a 3.5 singles better than a lot of 4.0's. Played in mixed and the "4.0" seems more like 3.0 on women's side... Some 4.0's feel good but top rated 4.0 will destroy you while a 4.5 player in doubles is manageable... Hard for someone new to the leagues to figure out what to do.
This is true... best bet is just to hit with some people, and then rate yourself in comparison to them.
(Same sex, since mens/womens ratings are not comparable)
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
A local player here has found a loop in the system...either he did or the captain did.
Junior player...played highschool...played and trained at a local tennis academy. Won Highschool state championship. Once he hit 18 years old local captain got him to sign up as a 3.5. He played combo that summer. That fall he went to one of the local colleges and he is now 20 and is playing as a 4.0C...but he is practicing several hours a day and playing against higher level players as a 4.0C on the team. In his self rating he said he had no intention of going to play college tennis.
This is a loophole because now that he has a C rating he is protected against grievances and being DQd.
Junior player...played highschool...played and trained at a local tennis academy. Won Highschool state championship. Once he hit 18 years old local captain got him to sign up as a 3.5. He played combo that summer. That fall he went to one of the local colleges and he is now 20 and is playing as a 4.0C...but he is practicing several hours a day and playing against higher level players as a 4.0C on the team. In his self rating he said he had no intention of going to play college tennis.
This is a loophole because now that he has a C rating he is protected against grievances and being DQd.
Yeah there always seems to be this magical person that somehow self rates all on their own and starts playing league tennis.
I'm not sure I've ever met someone like that. Everyone I know that plays USTA somehow got connected with people already playing USTA before they ever self rated and joined a team.
Yeah what you guys are doing in GA right now with high school kids is going to ruin the whole system. Adults just can't compete with kids like that.
Yup, certainly that was true for me... only reason I started playing tennis again and then playing USTA is because a friend of mine found out I had played years before, we started hitting together, and then he recruited me for the team he was on... but before the captain allowed me to sign up he wanted me to come hit with some of the guys... so by the time I actually had to self rate I had a really good idea of my actual rating.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
Yep...once high level juniors are old enough to play league....the local captain here gets them to sign up to play combo as a 3.5
That is clearly a loophole, but just a point of clarification. The question wording about college is "Played or commited to play for a Division II, III or NAIA college team" not "committed to play in college in general". Therefore, a kid who is in high school and intends to play in college but has not committed to a specific school yet is not falsifying the self-rating by answering "no" on that one. If that is common practice now, it should be addressed in some way, though, because it is clearly allowing kids to rate out of level.
We had a kid years ago in Middle State who self-rated 3.5 in high school but really was 3.5 in high school (won maybe 2/3 of his 3.5 matches and got smoked in a couple 4.0 matches). He was not recruited to play in college but walked on to the team anyway (D2). He didn't play in any varsity matches his first year and only snuck in a couple 5 and 6 spots his sophomore year, but was a regular in the lower part of his varsity lineup by his junior & senior year. He kept playing USTA and was bumped to 4.0 after the summer after his freshman year and not to 4.5 until after the summer after his junior year when he was a mid-range 4.5 caliber player with a 4.0 C rating. I don't really have an issue with this. He rated fairly but ended up about a year behind in getting bumped because of how quickly he was improving in the USTA offseason when he was playing in college. The questionnaire has to be worded the way it is to prevent these kids from being barred from rating at their correct level, but something does need to be done to prevent the other situation as well where people are intentionally misrating kids.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
The school is a NAIA school and he’s under 22 years old…per the rating chart he should be 5.0. Idk if his skill set is 5.0 but on paper he should be.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
It's not the end of the world, but the youngsters self-rating in southern caused my entire team to quit 18+ and only do a 40+ team this year after going pretty far in post-season play 2 seasons in a row. They just got fed up. I'm in it more for good matches than winning everything, but the frustration was just too much for the majority of the older guys.
This will be the only thing that fixes it. People have to stop playing to make the people running the leagues take it seriously.
schmke
Legend
18+ has been shrinking, in part due to not getting enough new players joining, but certainly because as players get older and continue to play 40+/55+ (which have been growing), they stop 18+ for reasons like you state.
Middle States this year approved a 2-level self-rating appeal to 4.0 for a varsity college player (D3) who graduated a year ago to play for a captain of a nationals level team with a LONG history of questionable self-rating. That is pretty much the last straw for me. This is my final year of USTA, definitely captaining, possibly playing at all, too, or at least all but mixed because my friends all play for the mixed team. USTA national ruined 40+ last year with the as-stupid-as-humanly-possible decision to go to a 4-court format. Now, the USTA is ruining 4.0 18+ by opening it to 23 year old college varsity athletes. I know exactly zero 4.0 level men who want to play against varsity athletes at that level.
Was this appeal in your local league or one of the other flights? I guess I was naive thinking we played hard and fast with the rules in Southern, but I have been amazed at the amount of college level talent at 4.0 here.
Practiced with a 4.0 team the other night that has a lot of 3.5s that are gunning for nationals. So there is a lot of overlap between levels here.
This whole thing is so distasteful, what kind of person do these captains need to be to get their jollies by cheating and having higher level players beat up on lower level players? And how about the players, they should be real proud of themselves beating players on a lower level than them.
My flight.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
I don't really understand why the grievances go to the State and Division level without first being reviewed at the local level. They can only make their decision based on what the computer shows. For example the kid who plays for the local college, the league coordinator knows and the board knows as well. They know that the captain signs people up from the tennis academy once they hit 18 years old. Yet they claim their hands are tied and only go by what the state decides. These are kids who play juniors and hit drills 10 hours a week.
The local league coordinator sent out the following this week: " Another change is with the grievance process. We now have a Grievance Suspension Point System that assesses points based on the egregiousness of the action and if enough points have been received, may result in a suspension. As we all know, suspension has always been an option for grievances, but now our grievance committee will have a chart that determines the weight of the action. This makes it much less subjective and hopefully more fair across the board."
The local league coordinator sent out the following this week: " Another change is with the grievance process. We now have a Grievance Suspension Point System that assesses points based on the egregiousness of the action and if enough points have been received, may result in a suspension. As we all know, suspension has always been an option for grievances, but now our grievance committee will have a chart that determines the weight of the action. This makes it much less subjective and hopefully more fair across the board."
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I completely understand, I'm a 4.0 level that wants to play against that level, but I'm a nutcase, an outlier for sure. And it's not that I am good enough to beat them in singles, but in doubles I managed to beat a handful, no one else on our team came really close. Anyway, yeah, I don't think enough people will quit usta to make them change much, but I respect your decision.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
That's why I've said before, a movie could be made or a mini-documentary if tennis was more popular. A great number of these captains in Texas and Southern, don't even play on the teams, their hobby is team assembling. I've been through the teams as a recruit and played against some, they even will travel out of town with the team just to watch the competition. They aren't life long friends with the team members, just, well, that's what they like to do.
I think tennis is popular enough to make such a show. There's no shortage of television in various outlets, now, so why not. I have also had conversations about league tennis shenanigans being a good subject for a mockumentary or the like. In my limited experience, captaining a team requires a substantial amount of time investment and interpersonal savvy, in addition to whatever tennis-related playing and assessment skills required. Those with the energy to recruit aggressively from out of town, juniors, etc. and convince all of those people to keep showing up at state, sectionals, and nationals are admirable in some ways, though perhaps misguided in others.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Yes, perhaps if you had a brilliant director or a strong comedic actor take an interest, there are some hollywood tennis players, maybe someday, but it would be hard to pitch a show about tennis to a non-tennis executive deciding where to spend a budget. Tennis shows/movies just don't have a great track record.
I know these captains and can't quite get my mind around the pure captaining part. I enjoy the playoffs aspect of tennis and have really enjoyed my time at districts and sectionals. At this point, I'll probably never make nationals but I do see the appeal of wanting to go one day.
My team last year probably could have made nationals if we had recruiting one player from another local team. That would have shifted me from the #1 singles player to #2 player. He was better than me and but even though my team peaked at sectionals without him. I really enjoyed being a contributor to the team and doing my part to win my point at districts that got us to sectionals. Not sure it would have the same luster if I was just a passenger on the team.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Is it actually a rule that someone just out of college that played D3 must rate themselves as a 5.0 player?
I know some guys out of D3 and I think they are strong 4.0 players maybe pushing 4.5. Of course, they will not be able to play USTA if they have to rate at 5.0. We don't even have a 5.0 team.
As long as they keep giving ratings by a self rate sheet and completely ignore actual scores of tennis matches, they will have a will be a bigger problem incorporating unrated players then they should.
This has been my experience entirely. The USTA ranges are so broad, the number of games that they rate is small (ignoring all the mixed and the men and women have completely different rating systems) and the difference between doubles and singles can be sizable. I do not think the USTA ratings are very meaningful even if you understand them well. If you ask new players to then try to decipher it and self rate well of course it is a _____ show.
I know some guys out of D3 and I think they are strong 4.0 players maybe pushing 4.5. Of course, they will not be able to play USTA if they have to rate at 5.0. We don't even have a 5.0 team.
As long as they keep giving ratings by a self rate sheet and completely ignore actual scores of tennis matches, they will have a will be a bigger problem incorporating unrated players then they should.
This has been my experience entirely. The USTA ranges are so broad, the number of games that they rate is small (ignoring all the mixed and the men and women have completely different rating systems) and the difference between doubles and singles can be sizable. I do not think the USTA ratings are very meaningful even if you understand them well. If you ask new players to then try to decipher it and self rate well of course it is a _____ show.
Yes he should be disqualified!!! Banned from ever playing USTA again!!!was thinking the scores looked competitive, probably belongs at 4.0
the cynical side of me, saw the 5-7, 6-1 score, and thought he was "managing" scores
OP, check out tennisrecord, or tls (not exact, but a good guess)... if the guys he's beating are "high 4.0" also, then probably a good guess he will be dq'd... but the scores alone aren't enough... eg. the last score where he won 1,2... against a very high 4.0 (high chance of dq)... but he could have also played a sacrafice very low 4.0... (score is expected)
either way, if he's also playing 3.5 league, he's definitely getting dq'd from there
No way in self ratings!!! Don’t matter if you’re injured or not. You play at your level!!! No bumping down. If that’s what you’re doing get lost!!! Sandbagers have no place in USTA along with all of you selfrating lower than your actual level!!! Get lost!!!!
Lazuras_Long
Rookie
does your area not have much for 4.5 play?
pedrogcr
Semi-Pro
We do! I'm in South Florida (Broward County), so most 4.5 leagues are as full as the 4.0 ones.
To follow up on this story, I filed a grievance against this guy and was told that the reason the appeal was allowed was that the kid had ankle surgery three years ago. This is a bunch of BS because if I, as a fat slow broken-down 50-something, tried to get a one-level medical appeal for ankle surgery last week, I'd be denied in a hot minute, but a D3 varsity athlete can get a two-level appeal for surgery three years ago? I did a little digging and found that the captain in question had placed a roster player on the sectional self-rating appeal committee, and it all made more sense (including the other questionable self-rating appeals that all benefitted one team). I responded by recruiting one of these "GA kids" - a high school kid who wasn't forced to rate 5.0 because he wasn't in college yet. I got him specifically to beat the D3 guy, successfully got him matched against the guy, and he beat him (and I got a nasty text from the other captain after the match complaining about him since apparently no one but him is actually entitled to the best players in the section). I'm back in again this year because I have the players to beat the guy's team again this year. It's going to be pretty funny because I will have a completely different lineup for this team than every other team in the league. I'm trying to go after him in 40s as well this year, but that's a little more difficult.
time_fly
Hall of Fame
Interesting. I have been following the trajectory of a woman in our area who started as 3.0 in around 2019 and has finally hit 4.5C last December. She only plays singles and her opponents seldom take more than 3 games off her per match. This has been true at every level, and she has played up at each level as she moved up. She has won almost 80 singles matches with only 3 losses in this time. But she was never DQed or double bumped making me think these things are almost impossible.
schmke
Legend
A DQ can only happen the first year when they are self-rated.
As far as double bumps, they do happen but are pretty rare. I show 34 occurred at 2022 year-end. 2021 had 103, but that was a two year rating period so you'd expect more. 2019 had just 30.
Ustatennis13
New User
Woah this is a great story. Is this in middle states? Seems like a match that will have a lot of fireworks this year! Just out of curiosity, how did you find players you think could beat him again? Are you going the high school route as well or do you just have a lot of faith in your 4.0 guys?
badmice2
Professional
A DQ can happen for S, A, and M players who plays regular season. In this case, there’s no net lose for the player if they get bumped to 4.0 as this is where they likely belongs. Worst case he loses eligibility to playing 3.5. Matches will only get reverse if a double bump occurs - ie 3.5 to 4.5. The chances of this happening to this 3.5s is unlikely based on the scores thus far. The only red flagged match so far is the 1,1 match.
