StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
2018 was worse than both.
Damage done to your rivals at their pet slams.
- Thread starter Phoenix*
- Start date
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
OP is a well known troll, I'm not sure why some even take this thread seriously.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
It sure is bc Star Wars is overrated af
Phoenix*
Professional
Just because 2-15 triggers you, doesn't mean I'm trolling.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
.
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Slams won:
Nadal - 14
Djokovic- 10
Matches played against each other in the finals:
AO - 2
RG - 3
Matches played against each other in the QF/SF:
AO - 0
RG - 7
Times Djokovic made it to a RG final and didn't play Nadal: 2
Times Nadal made it to an AO final and didn't play Djokovic: 4
So they have 2 and 4 runs to the final where neither played each other. Edge to Nadal of course here since he's more dominant at RG but he still faltered more at AO than Djokovic did at RG. The bolded tells the story. Look at the win percentages.
Djokovic at RG - 85.2%
Nadal at AO - 82.8%
Against the top 10
Djokovic at RG - 15-13 — 53.6%
Nadal at AO - 9-11 — 45%
Djokovic was just better at RG than Nadal was at AO which is why they didn't meet more, and what a lot of them like to leave out.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
One of the worst Nadal haters/Djokovic trolls.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
This is also true. Djokovic made it to the french SF and F much more consistently than Nadal did at Australia.
Nadal has incredible stats but it’s only at his pet slam compared to other big 3 pet slam where he holds the cards. Djokovic off clay has the better overall stats and on clay he was more consistent than Nadal was at Wimbledon or Australia over their whole careers.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Most dominant at his pet Slam out of everyone but outside of it, not as good as Djokvoic and Federer at his 2nd and 3rd best Slams; Djokovic is also better at his 4th best. I think that sums it up.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Yep that sums it up perfectly.
jl809
Hall of Fame
Did all the Djoker fans get together somewhere and agree to just troll this thread lol
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
I think we nolefams take joy out of others misery. This is not good.
If Nadal was anywhere close to his best in 2015, then ok. But he wasn't. He lost to Wawrinka in Rome, and fognini in Rio Barcelona. These are some of his bad losses on clay before 30 years old. I am not counting Madrid loss to Murray because of altitude and MC loss to Nole because of Nole. But it's a proof that Nadal was not even close to his best.
Yes Nadal is not good enough at AO like Nole is at RG. He has lost a huge number of QF unlike nole who mostly lost in semis or finals. But Nadal in 2015 RG was an asterisk.
2021 Nadal is much better than 2015. Both he and Nole have become older. And they played well in the night conditions and we can boast that win. But I think we are trying to mock Nadal at AO.
Nadal was unfortunate about some of his injuries in AO. Let's not sugarcoat it. To bring up nadal's failures is to bring bitterness to the whole Nole Rafa discussion.
Why do we have to do this? Nadal beat Federer in epic five setter in 2009. That was one of my all time favorite matches. Let's celebrate their wins instead.
Like this pt. It may be one of the best points in tennis history.
If Nadal was anywhere close to his best in 2015, then ok. But he wasn't. He lost to Wawrinka in Rome, and fognini in Rio Barcelona. These are some of his bad losses on clay before 30 years old. I am not counting Madrid loss to Murray because of altitude and MC loss to Nole because of Nole. But it's a proof that Nadal was not even close to his best.
Yes Nadal is not good enough at AO like Nole is at RG. He has lost a huge number of QF unlike nole who mostly lost in semis or finals. But Nadal in 2015 RG was an asterisk.
2021 Nadal is much better than 2015. Both he and Nole have become older. And they played well in the night conditions and we can boast that win. But I think we are trying to mock Nadal at AO.
Nadal was unfortunate about some of his injuries in AO. Let's not sugarcoat it. To bring up nadal's failures is to bring bitterness to the whole Nole Rafa discussion.
Why do we have to do this? Nadal beat Federer in epic five setter in 2009. That was one of my all time favorite matches. Let's celebrate their wins instead.
Like this pt. It may be one of the best points in tennis history.
Tennfan123
Legend
The first one about Nadal
2015 was about five years off his prime.
Why are posters here so uneducated about prime and generations?
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Then 2017 Nadal showed up. He may have been awful that year but it wasn’t the end of his prime or a very good level Nadal . As in 2017 the Nadal at RG was a beast and not far off his best years there. He had a bad dip for a couple of years and then bounced back well.The first one about Nadal
2015 was about five years off his prime.
Why are posters here so uneducated about prime and generations?
2015 and 2016 were awful years for Nadal but 2017 proved he could comeback to a top level. Not at a peak or even top prime level but still a very high level.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
Terrible take.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
This thread is more likely to show the hatred from Nole fans regarding Nole's rivals. Yes there are bad fans in all 3 camps. But I am more interested in our camp.
When we talk about H2H or something where Nadal fans boast, we need to show how hollow their claim is..
But this stat is really same boasting as Nadal fans H2H slam stat..
Let's look at things more closely.
Federer in his best slam is only 8 wins while Nole is 10 and counting, Rafa is 14 and counting.
Federer in his second best slam is just 1 win less at AO. And in his third best slam is another slam away at USO.
It's very difficult to see Federer having issues in all 3 slams.
Now, Nole met Federer in USopen during Federer's peak 3 times and lost all 3. That's discounted here.
Nole never met Federer in Wimbledon before 2012 and was beaten in 2012 by 30+ Federer. That's discounted here.
Rafa is not even same league as fedkovic in hc slams. He has 6, fed has 11 and Nole has 14. Nole is more than 2 times better than Rafa at hc slams. And still Rafa beat Nole in 2 finals of USOpen. Now we are nitpicking, counting ao but not USO for our own convinience. I know USO is vastly different than AO but it's still a proper hc slam.
So Rafa got 2 wins vs Nole on hc. Both times Nole was world number 1/3. Especially in 2013 Nole was playing at least well enough seeing how be won AO just in January. But Rafa beat him.
Now Nole beat Rafa who had not won a major since 2014. He had won 1 title in South America entire year in 2014 RG to 2015 RG. That's really bad. It's probably similar to compare Rafa 2015 to Nole 2010 but Nole at least beat some top players in Cincy Rogers cup and uso that year. Rafa was losing to every single one.
Comparing 2013 to 2021 is ok. Nole won a slam in 2013 and Rafa won a slam in 2020 September.
Nole won 1 masters in 2013 and Rafa won 1 masters in 2021. Before said matches I mean.
And Nole lost close matches in slams just like Nadal in 21.
Now the real difference is what happened after said loss..
Nadal after RG 21 skipped Wimbledon and Olympics. Went to hc. Played Washington 500 and then skipped almost entire year. He was very injured.
Nole after USO13 won Beijing beating Nadal, won Shanghai, won Bercy and won ATP finals beating Nadal. He went on 24 match win streak. No injuries.
So comparing both Nole and Rafa vs each other it seems like.
It was Rafa who had more legitimate wins over Nole on his pet surface than vice versa. Nole's 2015 is tainted as he lost to Wawrinka. His 2021 is awesome but Nadal was injured after that match so people can say it was because of being physically hampered that Nadal lost.
In the end I think it doesn't matter why you lose , only that you lost. So ok Nole did beat Nadal at his pet slam but we have to be truthful and also say that Nadal beat Nole on his pet surface. A well playing Nole. In fact Nole went on a tear after said loss.
When we talk about H2H or something where Nadal fans boast, we need to show how hollow their claim is..
But this stat is really same boasting as Nadal fans H2H slam stat..
Let's look at things more closely.
Federer in his best slam is only 8 wins while Nole is 10 and counting, Rafa is 14 and counting.
Federer in his second best slam is just 1 win less at AO. And in his third best slam is another slam away at USO.
It's very difficult to see Federer having issues in all 3 slams.
Now, Nole met Federer in USopen during Federer's peak 3 times and lost all 3. That's discounted here.
Nole never met Federer in Wimbledon before 2012 and was beaten in 2012 by 30+ Federer. That's discounted here.
Rafa is not even same league as fedkovic in hc slams. He has 6, fed has 11 and Nole has 14. Nole is more than 2 times better than Rafa at hc slams. And still Rafa beat Nole in 2 finals of USOpen. Now we are nitpicking, counting ao but not USO for our own convinience. I know USO is vastly different than AO but it's still a proper hc slam.
So Rafa got 2 wins vs Nole on hc. Both times Nole was world number 1/3. Especially in 2013 Nole was playing at least well enough seeing how be won AO just in January. But Rafa beat him.
Now Nole beat Rafa who had not won a major since 2014. He had won 1 title in South America entire year in 2014 RG to 2015 RG. That's really bad. It's probably similar to compare Rafa 2015 to Nole 2010 but Nole at least beat some top players in Cincy Rogers cup and uso that year. Rafa was losing to every single one.
Comparing 2013 to 2021 is ok. Nole won a slam in 2013 and Rafa won a slam in 2020 September.
Nole won 1 masters in 2013 and Rafa won 1 masters in 2021. Before said matches I mean.
And Nole lost close matches in slams just like Nadal in 21.
Now the real difference is what happened after said loss..
Nadal after RG 21 skipped Wimbledon and Olympics. Went to hc. Played Washington 500 and then skipped almost entire year. He was very injured.
Nole after USO13 won Beijing beating Nadal, won Shanghai, won Bercy and won ATP finals beating Nadal. He went on 24 match win streak. No injuries.
So comparing both Nole and Rafa vs each other it seems like.
It was Rafa who had more legitimate wins over Nole on his pet surface than vice versa. Nole's 2015 is tainted as he lost to Wawrinka. His 2021 is awesome but Nadal was injured after that match so people can say it was because of being physically hampered that Nadal lost.
In the end I think it doesn't matter why you lose , only that you lost. So ok Nole did beat Nadal at his pet slam but we have to be truthful and also say that Nadal beat Nole on his pet surface. A well playing Nole. In fact Nole went on a tear after said loss.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Nadal in 2015 was obviously at his lowest point but he wasn't injured or anything.
Nadal fans count his victory against 2010 USO Djokovic even though it was his second-worst year on tour, and rightly so, it was a fair victory. You can't always play at your best. It's part of the game.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
No its not lol nothing even happens in the movies
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
I think we have to just give our respects to fedal. Especially Nadal who beat Nole twice in USopen finals. We are making it a less important thing for our own purposes.
For Federer, I don't understand the argument. Nole was beaten in 2007 2008 and 2009, very badly in 2009 I must add by fed in USopen.
Are we really wanting a world devoid of fedal? Because it's rather boring and we can see that.
Federer might have gone 4-2 vs Nole in usopen and 2-2 at Wimbledon and it was a bit of luck of our guy that he didn't win those matches being mp down.
Tennis was at its peak when big 3 were playing well. Even in AO 2020 the top 3 ranked players were Nadal Djokovic Federer.
The coincidences like this and we trying to make fun of fedal is really a horrible thing.
For Federer, I don't understand the argument. Nole was beaten in 2007 2008 and 2009, very badly in 2009 I must add by fed in USopen.
Are we really wanting a world devoid of fedal? Because it's rather boring and we can see that.
Federer might have gone 4-2 vs Nole in usopen and 2-2 at Wimbledon and it was a bit of luck of our guy that he didn't win those matches being mp down.
Tennis was at its peak when big 3 were playing well. Even in AO 2020 the top 3 ranked players were Nadal Djokovic Federer.
The coincidences like this and we trying to make fun of fedal is really a horrible thing.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
I counted it already. I am just asking to be fair..
2010 USO vs 2015 RG. I would say 2010 USO was bigger win since Nole is HC goat and was ranked 3 in the world.
2013 USO vs 2021 RG. I don't think we need to prove 2013 was bigger victory than 2021.
And hc is hc. Nadal won 4 titles in USopen but also made 6 finals in AO as well as USOpen. Nadal most likely has more top 10 wins in AO than USO and played worse finalists in USopen than AO. If he got someone like Anderson in AO final then he wins it no question.
While Nole has 10 finals in AO and 10 in USO. He barely made it out in 2012, 2013 and 2020 in AO. Three epic matches. Otherwise he would have 7 slams in AO instead of 10.
He also had to skip USO 21 and got defaulted in USO 20 and skipped in USO 17. Otherwise he might be on 5/6 USO titles at least. So let's not make excuses for Nole's USO failures. It's as much his surface as AO. Especially that USO 20 default is big reason why he is still at 4. He would definitely have had best chance in 21. Medvedev and Thiem were in other halves. Zverev is huge choker.
jl809
Hall of Fame
While I disagree, I did laugh
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
The fact that Djokovic even reached USO 2010 final already proves that comparing it to Nadal's 2015 is total BS. Not to mention that he played a pretty decent match in the final which can be compared to their 2011 and 2013 finals, but not by any means to a match where Nadal hit 3 forehand winners. (on Chatrier of all places)
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Not everyone is gonna like every franchise.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
If Djokovic and Nadal were in opposite halves in 2015, the odds are Nadal reaches the final.
Let's see all qf and sf matches in RG 2015.
QF Djokovic Nadal Ferrer Murray Nishikori Tsonga Federer Wawrinka
Out of these only troublesome for Rafa would be Djokovic Federer Murray and Wawrinka. So let's say Nadal is in place of Nishikori. And Nishikori is in place of Nadal.
Nadal reaches semis beating Tsonga. I don't think beating tsonga is going to be big deal for nadal. Tsonga after Wimby 13 was never a big deal. Ok then he reaches semis and faces Federer or Wawrinka.
I don't know how this is different than what Nole faced in USO 2010. Fed was 5 times champion and also defending finalist in USO 2010. Nole was the underdog and he won in close five sets.
I don't think it's hard to see Nadal being underdog vs these two based on form but also it's Nadal and RG. He might have eeked a win vs fedrinka in semis.
Who would we have chosen in 2015 vs Nadal? Federer who has been declining already on hc and focused on grass ? Or Wawrinka who was title less that year.
They never saw how good Nadal was prior 2011 since that was the year they started watching tennois
hardly even a comparison. 2015 Nadal was terrible everywhere outside of a couple 250 events. 2010 djokovic had a poor/mediocre year before the Uso but once reached SF played a decent level, defeating a good Federer and taking a set off Nadal.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
Phoenix*
Professional
In retrospect, 2008 was 2 lesser players battling it out. Their tennis skills were proven insufficient in Djo's era.
Fedal higher level at 3/4 slams, YEC and 7/9 masters. Djokovic outlasted the other two and vultured slam record.
Phoenix*
Professional
When you have to combine their records, you know they're lesser.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Thanks for the laugh.
Federer alone is superior on grass + hard with a higher RG peak. Nadal has clay + US series covered.
doesn’t matter how many Ruud or tsitsipas opens djokovic vultures, doesn’t change what actually happened when all guys were at their peak. Djokovic came 3rd then limped over finish line once fedal actually or practically retired
Phoenix*
Professional
Good one. Federer is 1-8 at W/USO/AO vs 2011+ Djo.
djokovic is 1-4 in slams vs prime fed and lost at his very peak at rg/w to post prime 2011/2012 fed. Also had to edge out MP saving wins vs 2011 and ancient 2019 fed. Not a good look for thirdwheelovic
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Lol
Djokovic was already better than Fed on hard and clay before Fed retired. Djokovic was already better on grass and hard even before Nadal got injured in early 2023.
He didn’t need any player out the way. He not lost to Fed in a slam since Wimbledon 2012. He not lost to Nadal outside clay since us open 2013.
But sure he needed them to either retire or be injured to vulture! Hehe
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prime to prime-
AO
djokovic 6>4
RG
1-1. fed winning the definitive contest in 2011 past his prime and having better of the matchup.
W
Federer 6>3. Also winning the definitive match up in 2012 and generally having a much higher level for the surface
USO
Federer 5>2
YEC
4-4 Federer with higher peak
non contest. Fed higher at 3/4 slams including hc’s at their best.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
So Federer is superior on hard and at RG, and Nadal is superior at the USO series but neither of them have the hardware to show for it.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Mythical Fedal from these fans as usual. It’s always hypothetical but didn’t see it in reality.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
So winning earlier counts more than winning later lol
Hewitt had more slams than Federer in 2002/2003. Then Federer surpassed him. Courier had more than Agassi for a long while.
Of course, Federer was leading for a long time if he's 6 years older lol
And what happened when all were at their peak? And WHEN where they all at their peak? Didn't Fed decline when he was 24? How did his peak coincide with Djokovic's?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Mythical beasts who are the standard, except someone met their standard and surpassed it. Oh no, it doesn't count because they were past their prime. Meanwhile, 30+ year old Djokovic was a wrecking ball having 3 Slam seasons. Lol. When did his prime even end? Does anyone even know?
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Djokovic beat Fed much more easily in RG12 compared to RG11. Djokovic has proven he’s better than Fed there and challenged Peak/prime Nadal more too. 3 > 1 too.
I like how you are deciding when these guys peaks/prime were. You know for a fact Djokovic wasn’t in his peak or real prime before 2011.
Therefore, if you dismissing Djokovic wins over the older Federer then we can just dismiss Feds earlier wins over pre prime gluten Novak.
At end of the day they all count if we put that aside.
The facts are Fed doesn’t lead Novak in any slam H2H. Djoker is also closer to Fed in achievements at Wimbledon and is open compared to djoko at Australia or French.
Djokovic is also better or at least equal to Fed in 8 of the 9 masters now. At ATP finals they tied. Fed really doesn’t have much over Djoko anymore.
djokovic reached his peak and lost RG, W and had to save MP to win at USO vs post prime fed. No amount of Ruud or Berretini slams will elevate djokovic peak above the big 2.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer is not superior on HC. Even Fed knows it. He lost to Nole on medium fast surfaces constantly. He also lost to Nole on indoors in Basel, at his home.
But on fast hard courts only Fed is superior , in Dubai Shanghai and Cincy.
Nole is also his superior on clay no questions. Federer was a great server and serve is first thing declining on this surface. He lost to Guga in 2004, Nole in 2012 and Wawrinka in 2015. All in straight sets. He had no fight vs them. I am not even counting Nadal. Ok Wawrinka in 2015 is a bit older for Fed, but then if we keep making excuses for Federer he would always have some stat. How many excuses.
In 2003, this guy named Felix Mantilla beat Federer in Rome final. Otherwise Federer would have at least 1 Rome title. Who was him? Some scrub ranked 47.
Phillipousis then beat him in Hamburg, he was out of top 50.
Baby Gasquet beat him in 2005, Gasquet was a teenager. And ranked outside top 100.
Again in 2007 Some guy ranked outside top 50 beat Federer in Rome.
Stepanek beat him here in 2008 ranked outside top 25.
Gublis beat him in Rome 2010 ranked 40.
This is our peak clay Federer. The guy who can "Only lose to Nadal on clay in his peak". What bs.
At same age, before turning 30 I mean, Djokovic also had many losses. But counting for Nole since 2008.
Kohlschriber beat him in 2009 in RG. He was ranked 29.
Melzer beat him in 2010 RG in QF. He was ranked 27.
Dimitrov in 2013 Madrid who was ranked 28.
And Vesley in 2016 RG when he was 55.
These are the only bad losses for Nole between age 21 to 29. I dind't even count Federer's age 21 to 29 because I wanted to check when Federer was number 1/2. Nole's 2 losses in 2009,2010 RG were when he was physically unfit. But Roger lost while being world number 1 to baby Gasquet.
They are trying to convince us that this Federer is better than Nole who won Rome at age 21, beat Nadal back to back in masters finals in 2011 and reached double digit finals in Rome.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
I like how they dismiss Djoko’s wins against older Fed but completely okay with Feds early wins over young djoko with physical issues, bad serve, bad FH, net game, movement at times, etc.
It’s like they just see what they want to see.
They all count the same though every win. It’s either you treat all wins same or they should expect this push back .
Djokovic is getting punished for his incredible longevity and still performing really well while the rest couldn’t keep up. Djokovic has been at the top for so long but they acting like he’s Alcaraz and just starting to win now!
Let’s ignore the 50 matches he had against Fed and 60 matches against Rafa. The many battles with Murray, wawrinka and other decent players like prime tsonga, delpo, ferrer or berdych.
Facing 3 different generations and still leading the way. However, he’s just a vulture though who is lucky and didn’t work hard for his titles! Lol
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
At least on hardcourt it's still somewhat close, although it's clearly Djokovic: 14 Slams versus 11 Slams, 6 WTFs each, and 28 Masters versus 22 Masters. When you get into the stats, it's a clear picture that Djokovic is better and no one compares to him on hardcourt. His win rate against top players is higher than everyone else's and he has much more wins than anybody else.
Clay, however, is not close. I don't know why they keep repeating this argument that his clay peak is higher when he's so behind Djokovic in the hardware, titles. He lost to a number of players in Rome year after year in his prime not even including Nadal. Djokovic is just far more accomplished and his level was better across all tournaments.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer gave Nadal worse fight, didn't win many Rome finals and didn't have a prayer in slow MC. He also lost to unseeded guys total of 32 times out of which 12 times was after he became number 1.
While Nole only lost 19 times out of which 8 times was after becoming number 1.
Fed has hit clay elo rating of 2453 at age 28.
Nole hit it first at age 25 itself and reached max elo of 2538 on clay. Its in the ballpark of players like Lendl and Wilander who won 3 RG titles each.
What it tells us is simple. It's dangerous to believe TTW members who have agenda vs Djokovic. They are trying to misguide you with their eye tests. Clay needs great baseliners. There are rarely ever any baseliners who were better than Djokovic.
Yes Djokovic is not able to distinguish himself from 3 time champions Lendl Wilander but he doesn't need to. Both of those guys were scary successful.
While Nole only lost 19 times out of which 8 times was after becoming number 1.
Fed has hit clay elo rating of 2453 at age 28.
Nole hit it first at age 25 itself and reached max elo of 2538 on clay. Its in the ballpark of players like Lendl and Wilander who won 3 RG titles each.
What it tells us is simple. It's dangerous to believe TTW members who have agenda vs Djokovic. They are trying to misguide you with their eye tests. Clay needs great baseliners. There are rarely ever any baseliners who were better than Djokovic.
Yes Djokovic is not able to distinguish himself from 3 time champions Lendl Wilander but he doesn't need to. Both of those guys were scary successful.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea he supposedly had to wait for them to be 30+ and massively decline/retire to win like he's doing now when he was winning even more in 2011-2016, and definitely winning way more Masters/ATP Finals.
He dominated one generation, the next generation, now he's hanging with the next one and beating them. The idea that he was only winning big after Fedal fell off is all bs, of course, since we all watched the same game and know they way it played out.
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Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
They try to call Djokovic the vulture and Fed better than him at RG. It’s laughable.
Yet this Fed guy only won 1 RG due to Soldering producing the match of his life and Fed took advantage of it. He has no Rome or Monte Carlo titles.
As you say it’s not even a discussion now.
Hard courts is closer but again it’s case closed in Djokovic favour now. He’s just got to much over Fed in slams, masters and atp finals and that 4th us open strengthened him further and his slam distribution too. No path left for Fed
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