Despite all the Alcaraz #1 criticism, he’s only 70 points behind Novak in the WTF race

Tweener

Semi-Pro
I was a bit confused as to the true point the OP was trying to make, as he does say people are upset about Carlos being #1 ahead of Novak while the race to WTF is so close.

These are two different things as has been repeatedly outlined. The race is close because Novak missed some masters events and Carlos has whipped the snot out of the rest of the field outside of the majors and aside from Novak. Novak has won the most important events and I’m sure Carlos would trade his season for Novak’s without a shadow of a doubt.

The Wimbledon debacle aside, Carlos said before RG that “to be the best, you have to beat the best”. They played on the biggest stage, and Carlos could not beat Novak. Therefore, if it’s about who is the best player right now, Carlos would have to concede that he hasn’t scaled that mountain yet. Race to WTF is what it is for known reasons, as is the current ranking. The outside factors will work themselves out in the coming 3-4 months. And by then, we’ll likely have had at least another test or two between these guys to solidify the “best player” topic along with the rankings.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
No offence but do you not understand race rankings?
I wasn't talking about the race rankings (present calendar year only). I was talking about the world rankings (the previous 52 weeks).

Or did you not read the the thread title? It’s about the 2023 race rankings which has nothing to do with Wimbledon not awarding points last year. That’s based on results only this year. And Alcaraz is only 70 points behind him.
Why are you so tetchy? My point was that on 17 July 2023, the world rankings will be back to normal, after the recent years of Covid and 2022 Wimbledon being an exhibition.

Aus open 2022 was the exhibition with second best players Competing for the title while their superior was banned.
LOL. Djokovic didn't meet the rules for entry into Australia, and wasn't banned from the tournament. You may as well moan about the 2022 US Open as well, where again Djokovic wasn't banned from the tournament but banned from entering the country for not meeting entry requirements.

Wimbledon 2022 was normal with Superior playing the tourney and and some inferiors banned which was fine.
It was not normal at all. Players of Russian and Belarussian nationalities were banned from playing 2022 Wimbledon, purely on the basis of their nationality.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Novak holds 3 slams and the WTFs the other slam he was not allowed to participate at. It's one thing to have a slight edge in the biggest tournaments that's overcome by performance in smaller events a la 2016 Murray. This is not that.
As far as the world rankings are concerned, 2022 Wimbledon is completely irrelevant, like it didn't exist.
 

Vincent-C

Hall of Fame
I wasn't talking about the race rankings (present calendar year only). I was talking about the world rankings (the previous 52 weeks).


Why are you so tetchy? My point was that on 17 July 2023, the world rankings will be back to normal, after the recent years of Covid and 2022 Wimbledon being an exhibition.


LOL. Djokovic didn't meet the rules for entry into Australia, and wasn't banned from the tournament. You may as well moan about the 2022 US Open as well, where again Djokovic wasn't banned from the tournament but banned from entering the country for not meeting entry requirements.


It was not normal at all. Players of Russian and Belarussian nationalities were banned from playing 2022 Wimbledon, purely on the basis of their nationality.

I was a bit confused as to the true point the OP was trying to make, as he does say people are upset about Carlos being #1 ahead of Novak while the race to WTF is so close.

These are two different things as has been repeatedly outlined. The race is close because Novak missed some masters events and Carlos has whipped the snot out of the rest of the field outside of the majors and aside from Novak. Novak has won the most important events and I’m sure Carlos would trade his season for Novak’s without a shadow of a doubt.

The Wimbledon debacle aside, Carlos said before RG that “to be the best, you have to beat the best”. They played on the biggest stage, and Carlos could not beat Novak. Therefore, if it’s about who is the best player right now, Carlos would have to concede that he hasn’t scaled that mountain yet. Race to WTF is what it is for known reasons, as is the current ranking. The outside factors will work themselves out in the coming 3-4 months. And by then, we’ll likely have had at least another test or two between these guys to solidify the “best player” topic along with the rankings.

Novak holds 3 slams and the WTFs the other slam he was not allowed to participate at. It's one thing to have a slight edge in the biggest tournaments that's overcome by performance in smaller events a la 2016 Murray. This is not that.
I'm not sure why three posts are quoted above, but I especially agree with The Guru's pithy one.
Maybe Tiny will someday- no time soon- prove to be in the Big Three's league. We'll see how it goes
over a bit more time.
 

Bambooman

Hall of Fame
You're working hard to miss the point: was Djok allowed to play AO '22, US HC circuit '22, USO '22 ? Also, how many ATP points was
he awarded for *winning Wimbledon* in 2022? Thanks in advance.
No, you missed the point. I'm not actually talking about anything but the last couple of weeks.
 

Vincent-C

Hall of Fame
Mr. Djokovic recently won the French Open at the age of 36, over a young opponent who many here say is the Second Coming- or even better than that! Mr. Djokovic- the current record holder for Major Tennis Championships, at 23- might not be excessively interested in tuneup tournaments, these days. But what would he know..
 

Razer

Legend
I wasn't talking about the race rankings (present calendar year only). I was talking about the world rankings (the previous 52 weeks).


Why are you so tetchy? My point was that on 17 July 2023, the world rankings will be back to normal, after the recent years of Covid and 2022 Wimbledon being an exhibition.


LOL. Djokovic didn't meet the rules for entry into Australia, and wasn't banned from the tournament. You may as well moan about the 2022 US Open as well, where again Djokovic wasn't banned from the tournament but banned from entering the country for not meeting entry requirements.


It was not normal at all. Players of Russian and Belarussian nationalities were banned from playing 2022 Wimbledon, purely on the basis of their nationality.

Which doesn't your head register this basic fact ?

Absence of Medvedev, Rublev from Wimbledon is same as you or me not playing wimbledon, it doesn't matter as non of us/Russians are winning it amyway . However if Djoker is not allowed to play Wimbledon, then that becomes an exhibition

Regarding the AO .... Djoker is 9 time defending champ and sureshot winner ther just like Nadal at FO. If these guys are injured then it is ok, but if they are fit and not allowed to play then the person who wins it is an undeserving winner

Get this in your head please, these are simple facts, we are not supposed to go round and round over same facts for months and months .....don't be so confused in life, keep things simple man
 

Razer

Legend
No, it was not fine that "some inferiors" (as defined by whom, on which day?) were banned from Wimbledon last year. That's a slippery slope right there, friend.

Only on grass

I would not call med inferior on HC, his presence on HC does make a bit of a difference
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Which doesn't your head register this basic fact ?

Absence of Medvedev, Rublev from Wimbledon is same as you or me not playing wimbledon, it doesn't matter as non of us/Russians are winning it amyway . However if Djoker is not allowed to play Wimbledon, then that becomes an exhibition

Regarding the AO .... Djoker is 9 time defending champ and sureshot winner ther just like Nadal at FO. If these guys are injured then it is ok, but if they are fit and not allowed to play then the person who wins it is an undeserving winner

Get this in your head please, these are simple facts, we are not supposed to go round and round over same facts for months and months .....don't be so confused in life, keep things simple man
Your argument is assumptions made (i.e. Djokovic would win, Russians wouldn't win). Mine is objective facts as to why they didn't play, that 2022 Wimbledon banned Russians and Belarussians from the tournament purely on the basis of their nationality, while Djokovic was banned from the country of Australia for not meeting entry requirements and wasn't actually banned from the tournament.

When is your head going to register these facts, and that they are what matter, not assumptions of "who would have won".
 

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
It could be a very close year. If Djik wind Wim I could see him only playing a warm up Masters and USO before the WTF.
Alca if uninjured will compete in every remaining Masters and Major and several 500 before the WTF.
Alca could reel in the Rankings with good Major and winning a few Masters and 500.
If Djok wins Wim he only worry about USO, even if it means missing Can, Cinn and Par. Djok could hold Grand Slam and still be 2nd. But it would require Alca to be runner up at Majors and making difference on Masters.
The WTF will be the WTF comment.
 

Razer

Legend
Your argument is assumptions made (i.e. Djokovic would win, Russians wouldn't win). Mine is objective facts as to why they didn't play, that 2022 Wimbledon banned Russians and Belarussians from the tournament purely on the basis of their nationality, while Djokovic was banned from the country of Australia for not meeting entry requirements and wasn't actually banned from the tournament.

When is your head going to register these facts, and that they are what matter, not assumptions of "who would have won".
Anyway, Djokovic is superior to Nadal and Federer, he always has been, thats why he could come from far behind and overtake them. He also has highest peak (objective fact - 16950 points), not your subjective 08-10 periods or 04-07 period for the other 2 guys. These are objective facts that won't change. Hope you come to terms with at least this :happydevil:
 

Vincent-C

Hall of Fame
My prediction is that heavily-muscled Tiny will beat GrampsDjok 0, 0, and 0 in the 2023 Wimbledon Final, and then win at least seventy Majors, besides- all of them before the end of this year.


Alky is clearly superior to God Himself.
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
Laughter is because he retired in two sets. That's not to say he's not phenomenal. Once in a generation talent. He's dominating everyone but Djokovic. Points are totally justified. When it mattered, he retired. He can redeem himself if he wins W after beating Djokovic. That's a big ask when he folded cheaply at the French - Novak's weakest surface.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Good point @Aussie Darcy . But in the end it also comes down to which year would you rather have? A year with 2 slams? (or 3 if we're not just counting the race, but the last 52 weeks). Or a year with no/1 slam and a bunch of other titles, Masters included?

I'd say no one is really in doubt about that (and that's coming from a tiny fan)
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
Good point @Aussie Darcy . But in the end it also comes down to which year would you rather have? A year with 2 slams? (or 3 if we're not just counting the race, but the last 52 weeks). Or a year with no/1 slam and a bunch of other titles, Masters included?

I'd say no one is really in doubt about that (and that's coming from a tiny fan)
i dont think it comes down to that, it also comes down to the merit of the achievements, playing good 2 weeks vs playing good for 3 or 4 months, you also have to think about that
 

Biotic

Hall of Fame
Which doesn't your head register this basic fact ?

Absence of Medvedev, Rublev from Wimbledon is same as you or me not playing wimbledon, it doesn't matter as non of us/Russians are winning it amyway . However if Djoker is not allowed to play Wimbledon, then that becomes an exhibition

Regarding the AO .... Djoker is 9 time defending champ and sureshot winner ther just like Nadal at FO. If these guys are injured then it is ok, but if they are fit and not allowed to play then the person who wins it is an undeserving winner

Get this in your head please, these are simple facts, we are not supposed to go round and round over same facts for months and months .....don't be so confused in life, keep things simple man
Eh... You're talking to someone whose favorite was enabled by politics to shamelessly vulture a mega asterisked tournament, before the eyes of the whole world. No sense of shame should be expected.
 

Artanis

Semi-Pro
Good thread.
Rankings don't lie, they never did.

This is in spite of all GS aura of being something more special than they actually are.
Points are just summing up the same, only the amount of points awarded are varying...

And I think Carlos has a good chance of finishing the second year as no.1
 

Keizer

Hall of Fame
So slams are everything in terms of rankings now? Interesting…. Maybe we should notify the Masters tournaments they don’t need to award points anymore?

i dont think it comes down to that, it also comes down to the merit of the achievements, playing good 2 weeks vs playing good for 3 or 4 months, you also have to think about that

Ask any player whether they’d rather have 2 slams in the year by July or be #1 with no slams. I’ll bet everyone says the former.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
Ask any player whether they’d rather have 2 slams in the year by July or be #1 with no slams. I’ll bet everyone says the former.
of course, but i wasnt talking about that, obviously they are the most important trophies, i was just talking about the fact that you have to play good for much longer to win 3 masters than to win a slam, so its normal that you end up with a lot of points too
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
i dont think it comes down to that, it also comes down to the merit of the achievements, playing good 2 weeks vs playing good for 3 or 4 months, you also have to think about that
we know you love Carlos, but come on - 3 slams over a year vs. 1? 2 slams this year vs. 0? That's not a remotely close call.
In the end, sport is about winning on the biggest stage. There was a time when Novak was majoring in minors, but he's become the very best at majoring in majors.

Novak won pretty much anything he touched from Wimbledon to the Australian Open, so it's not like he's only won slams either.
Then he's had a so and so season between then and the French, but winning the French is what the clay season is all about. Hence you can even argue Novak had a better clay season than Carlos, even though Carlos won more titles, matches and points (that would be somewhat debatable though).

What's not debatable is, to repeat: 3 slams over a year vs. 1? 2 slams this year vs. 0? That's not a remotely close call.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
of course, but i wasnt talking about that, obviously they are the most important trophies, i was just talking about the fact that you have to play good for much longer to win 3 masters than to win a slam, so its normal that you end up with a lot of points too
So what exactly is your argument? That Carlos had as great a season as Novak so far? Not following your logic
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Current ranking is meaningless and Alcaraz knows it. He had a chance to show he was the best player in the world at the French Open and blew it, hopefully he can take his shot next time.
 

Enceladus

Legend
Your argument is assumptions made (i.e. Djokovic would win, Russians wouldn't win). Mine is objective facts as to why they didn't play, that 2022 Wimbledon banned Russians and Belarussians from the tournament purely on the basis of their nationality, while Djokovic was banned from the country of Australia for not meeting entry requirements and wasn't actually banned from the tournament.

When is your head going to register these facts, and that they are what matter, not assumptions of "who would have won".
Russians and Belarusians could also avoid the ban by taking citizenship of another country, like Rybakina did, who won Wimbledon 22, lol.

With the demands that Australia has placed on tennis players, AO 2022 should not have been held on Australian soil as tournament was not fully open.
 
Djokovic hasn’t made the QF’s at both Indian Wells and Miami (aka the Sunshine double) in over 7 years so I think you might want to check that “does well” of late… the last time Djokovic made the QF’s at Indian Wells or Miami, Alcaraz was 12
Out of 7 years, he didn't play at all in the last 4 of them and from the other 3 remaining, two of them were his slump 2017-2018 years when he was losing early everywhere.

So this only leaves us with 2019 as the realistic sample.

And this for a guy with 11 titles and 2 finals there.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
So what exactly is your argument? That Carlos had as great a season as Novak so far? Not following your logic
no, im just saying its not that far off, people here talk as if alcaraz season or what he did last year is nothing, and about slams, he wasnt able to play australia, thats a big hole when you whant to see how good this season is being, alcaraz has had a year and a half better than everyone not named federer nadal or djokovic in a lot of time
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
we know you love Carlos, but come on - 3 slams over a year vs. 1? 2 slams this year vs. 0? That's not a remotely close call.
In the end, sport is about winning on the biggest stage. There was a time when Novak was majoring in minors, but he's become the very best at majoring in majors.

Novak won pretty much anything he touched from Wimbledon to the Australian Open, so it's not like he's only won slams either.
Then he's had a so and so season between then and the French, but winning the French is what the clay season is all about. Hence you can even argue Novak had a better clay season than Carlos, even though Carlos won more titles, matches and points (that would be somewhat debatable though).

What's not debatable is, to repeat: 3 slams over a year vs. 1? 2 slams this year vs. 0? That's not a remotely close call.
what has he touched from wimbledon to australia? wtf and paris? plenty of rest time too, this season we will have a clearer picture
 

thrust

Legend
This is misleading.

Djokovic did not receive any ranking points for winning Wimbledon, last year. He also wasn't allowed to play at the US Open (which Carlos won.)
Actually, Novak lost 2000 ranking points while winning the 22 Wimbledon. Only the ATP officials could cause something so stupid and unfair.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think the discussion was about the race. It's the general ranking where it's questionable weather Alcaraz is just #1 on paper. The race is fine. Djokovic underperformed heavily on the clay before RG while Alcaraz has been more consistent but also played more this season so they are close in points.
 

S'in-net

Semi-Pro
Y-E 1 on the race is a THREE horse race this year:-

Medevedev, rankings race = 4400 (only 345 pnts behind Djokovic)
41-8, Titles 5 (inc 2 masters)
 

Razer

Legend
Djokovic won't be year end number 1 forever, he won't be able to play all tourneys because his old age won't allow him....so not surprising if this year is his last chance to be year end rank 1
 
Current ranking is meaningless and Alcaraz knows it. He had a chance to show he was the best player in the world at the French Open and blew it, hopefully he can take his shot next time.
I get how there's the aspect of Wimbledon points not being counted, but it's not fair to say Alcaraz's ranking is meaningless. After AO Djokovic hasn't made it past a semi final of any tournament until FO, while Alcaraz in that time won 3 titles and made another final. At the FO Alcaraz had a more dominant run until the semi and before the cramps he was 1 set all with Djokovic and had the momentum. It was a close match at that point and not something that showed Djokovic was head and shoulders above Alcaraz. Since FO Alcaraz already won another title.

So overall Alcaraz has been performing better than anyone in the field since January, and that's hardly meaningless.
 

tennis_error

Professional
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
WTF race has nothing to do with No1, except at the very end of the year when lists are equal... And we are in June... Some knowledge is need if you wanna quality comment tennis...
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
what has he touched from wimbledon to australia? wtf and paris? plenty of rest time too, this season we will have a clearer picture
Plus Astana, Tel Aviv and Adelaide - beat some pretty decent players too. One could argue some of the draws were tougher than his AO draw

He lost the Paris final btw (Rune)
 

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
Wow.... so you argue this hard just to defame Novak? Unbelievable ... (I would have given more respect if you were a blind fan of Carlos)

Of course I am no fan of ... if X was allowed player Y should have been ahead kind of arguments. But just the fact that Carlos wins when Djoker does not play, and wins tournaments without beating Djoker, but Djoker beats Carlos when winning tournaments, muddies the water. Again... it is just a muddy water.. and I will leave it as it is.

I’m no Alcaraz fan
 

messiahrobins

Hall of Fame
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
Don't see the issue. Djokovic holds 3 slams Alcaraz 1 but the next slam is one djokovic holds. If alcaraz wins it they have 2 each and alcaraz a worthy no.1. Let's just see how the event plays out. The winner of Wimbledon (assuming it's one of alcaraz or djokovic) is the real no.1. Let's enjoy it and hope they both make the final
 
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