dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
Correct, slower serves are way more effective
Flat 95mph is easy for even a 3.0 to just block back deep No swing required.
Dink serve creates havoc and exposes all stroke and footwork flaws
Does it make sense for recreational players to have a slower serve?
- Thread starter Steady Eddy
- Start date
Correct, slower serves are way more effective
Flat 95mph is easy for even a 3.0 to just block back deep No swing required.
Dink serve creates havoc and exposes all stroke and footwork flaws
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Lefty slice into the BH, lefty slice into the BH, lefty slice into the BH - they start shading over and then a flat or kick serve to the wide open FH. Like taking candy from a baby
mental midget
Hall of Fame
not exactly what i was saying. a real 'dink' serve is going to get punished by anybody decent. my point is that placement and spin trump pace unless the pace is ridiculous.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Steady EddyLefty slice into the BH, lefty slice into the BH, lefty slice into the BH - they start shading over and then a flat or kick serve to the wide open FH. Like taking candy from a baby
I used that approach a fair amt at the 3.5/4.0 levels -- except I didn't have a kick serve back then. The slice out wide on the Ad was so effective, that I didn't need to hit a lot of flat serves tho.
As I started playing more at the 4.0/4.5 level, I delighted in hitting lefty spin jamming serves into the body on the Fh side. Many R-handed players had a difficult time try to run around that ball to hit a decent return. If they were able to get into position when I targeted their R arm (or armpit), then I would target the serve closer to their midline. Some returners still tried to run around to hit their Fh return, often unsuccessfully. I referred to these as my heat-seeking serves -- cuz the generous lefty spin just kept following them.
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
Guys that can't run around a serve and get jammed are more like 3.0 level
Any 3.5 can backpedal and not get body jammed by a slice serve
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Depends on the quality (pace, side spin) of the slice serve, don’t you think? You think a 3.5 won‘t get body jammed by a 4.5+ quality (good pace, sharp side spin) body serve? Or to take it to the extreme, a John Isner body serve? I’m sure they will be bothered even by a high-3.5 level body serve.
I know I can trouble 4.5 players with my slice body serves and it is a common tactic against quick returners.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not at all easy against a good lefty slice serve. Much trickier than a righty slice serve to the body or to the Fh. My lefty slice had a very dramatic bend that was difficult to run around and was quite effective against 4.0 & 4.5 players. Not quite as effective against the 5.0 & 5.5 players that I faced.
Many returners would have a bit better luck moving the other way to hit a Bh rather trying to hit their preferred Fh.
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socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Good advice. As a lefty, righties try to slice into my BH. I usually shade the other way against 4.5+ servers so that I have a lot of space to extend and hit good BH returns. If I try to leave less space on my BH side, I’m more likely to get jammed as too many serves end up near my body. On the other hand, if I am playing a lower level player, I will shade towards my BH as I can usually run around and hit FHs hard against their serve pace even if they locate it near my body. So, whether the body serve or even slice serve is effective depends on whether the pace and sidespin are appropriate to trouble opponents at a particular level.
I am used to slice serves from lefties as I play many of them. The serve that takes me a few games to adjust is a lefty kick serve if someone has enough pace to use it as a 1st serve - I don’t face that lefty hard kick often enough to be comfortable against it from the start of a match. I’m used to lefties using a slower kick as a second serve though.
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Injured Again
Hall of Fame
To get back to the OP’s original question, I believe a lot of the strategy depends on your strengths on the first shot after the serve.
My plus one is a higher level than my serve, so my primary goal with my serve is to get a ball which I can more safely do more damage than with the same margin for error as on my second serve. So I try to mix up speeds, spins, and bounce heights to create uncertainty on the returner’s part, because after a bit they realize they need to make a pretty good return to keep me at bay and forcing my opponent to to use different timing and swing paths often gets me that.
If your serve is more of a weapon than your plus one, or you don’t otherwise have an advantage in a neutral rally, then using more risk on both serves may make sense.
My plus one is a higher level than my serve, so my primary goal with my serve is to get a ball which I can more safely do more damage than with the same margin for error as on my second serve. So I try to mix up speeds, spins, and bounce heights to create uncertainty on the returner’s part, because after a bit they realize they need to make a pretty good return to keep me at bay and forcing my opponent to to use different timing and swing paths often gets me that.
If your serve is more of a weapon than your plus one, or you don’t otherwise have an advantage in a neutral rally, then using more risk on both serves may make sense.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
My objective on 1st serves is either to get a serve winner (typically aim for 20 per singles match) or to get a FH on the +1 shot. Since I’m a lefty with a big FH, this results in a point pattern of me hitting FHs against righty BHs even on neutral returns which usually favors me. If they have a big weakness I will attack that, but that is rare at 4.5.
Against new opponents, the first couple of service games is used to test which combination of spin/location will get me FHs reliably on the 1st shot. On 2nd serves, I want to get a neutral ball on the return and not be on defense for the +1 shot.
Ad I’ve grown older, I’ve evolved from relying on pace/high spin serves to relying on variety/accurate targeting near lines (Smoltz to Maddux in baseball pitching styles) to get service winners. For instance if you hit two different spins (flat to slice, slice to kick etc.) to the same spot on consecutive serves on deuce/ad, it is surprising how many missed returns you can get. Or if you serve to one side for a while, opponents invariably start shading and then if you serve low (flat or low slice) into the gap close to the sidelines of the box, they will miss a lot as they have to take 1-2 steps and return on the move.
Against new opponents, the first couple of service games is used to test which combination of spin/location will get me FHs reliably on the 1st shot. On 2nd serves, I want to get a neutral ball on the return and not be on defense for the +1 shot.
Ad I’ve grown older, I’ve evolved from relying on pace/high spin serves to relying on variety/accurate targeting near lines (Smoltz to Maddux in baseball pitching styles) to get service winners. For instance if you hit two different spins (flat to slice, slice to kick etc.) to the same spot on consecutive serves on deuce/ad, it is surprising how many missed returns you can get. Or if you serve to one side for a while, opponents invariably start shading and then if you serve low (flat or low slice) into the gap close to the sidelines of the box, they will miss a lot as they have to take 1-2 steps and return on the move.
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ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Had a few new 3.5 players out at our practice the other day, and I would say (like almost always the case, including my earliest tennis) they over-hit serves and strokes more often than not. So with any stroke/serve the goal should be to find the comfortable pace that yields the most consistency with whatever pace that is at. So more so finding a neutral ball pace or serve, and then varying up or down depending on the situation. That is a skill that comes with leveling up though.
Steady Eddy
Legend
Does this mean that you think most 3.5 players should have a comfortable speed that they use for both serves?
I think many lower level players first serves don't go in enough. Generally, if the first serve goes in less than 50% of the time, slow it down so you can put it in more often. Some guys seem to almost never get that first serve in. Even if you have an un-returnable serve, if it goes in less than 10% of the time, that's not going to help you win many matches.
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
I try to slice my second serve and take pace off but sometimes my second serve inadvertantly turns out to be a cannonball.
Think it relates to how relaxed my arm is and if my thoracic spine got a bit more flexion at that instant. But it is certainly not intentional on my part.
A more relaxed arm and thoracic extension results in a deeper racquet drop and more racquet head speed. And even a slice will result in more mph compared to a flat without the ideal mechanics. And I'm shocked by the mph as well.
Sometimes the opponent will even whine, "Hey! What are you doing. That was supposed to be a second serve! hahaha".
A few will even sort of imply that it is unsportsmanlike.
Think it relates to how relaxed my arm is and if my thoracic spine got a bit more flexion at that instant. But it is certainly not intentional on my part.
A more relaxed arm and thoracic extension results in a deeper racquet drop and more racquet head speed. And even a slice will result in more mph compared to a flat without the ideal mechanics. And I'm shocked by the mph as well.
Sometimes the opponent will even whine, "Hey! What are you doing. That was supposed to be a second serve! hahaha".
A few will even sort of imply that it is unsportsmanlike.
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Steady Eddy
Legend
A lot of people think that all first serves should be hit harder than the second serve. One writer said it can be a good idea to hit a safe serve first because your opponent is back and not likely to attack it. Also, if he moves up for the second serve, you have a better chance of hitting a winning serve if you give it some pace. It's really not intelligent to be completely predictable with your serves.I try to slice my second serve and take pace off but sometimes my second serve inadvertantly turns out to be a cannonball.
Think it relates to how relaxed my arm is and if my thoracic spine got a bit more flexion at that instant. But it is certainly not intentional on my part.
A more relaxed arm and thoracic extension results in a deeper racquet drop and more racquet head speed. And even a slice will result in more mph compared to a flat without the ideal mechanics. And I'm shocked by the mph as well.
Sometimes the opponent will even whine, "Hey! What are you doing. That was supposed to be a second serve! hahaha".
A few will even sort of imply that it is unsportsmanlike.
Sometimes I'll get a service winner on my second serve. I feel that I took a chance, and it worked. Can't imagine it unsportsmanlike, or anything to apologize for.
Dragy
Legend
If you can vary and stay consistent, props to you. If you just hit slower first serves, I don’t stay back after your first serving game.
General wisdom is you need solid second serve which neither gets easily attacked for your level, nor you miss it more than once in a while (like 90% matchplay consistency).
If you can only hit such decent serve with 80% or lower consistency, you better use same serve as first, or you get too many DF. And you work on improving success rate by practicing and adding more spin/arc for safety without sacrificing quality (placement, speed, depth etc.)
If you already have good second serve with 90% consistency, you benefit from going for more on first serve. Sharper placement, more pace, different spins.
Overall, the biggest fallacy of the idea that you should “lower speed” on your serve is that you miss the spin component. Get more topspin for safety, speed will take care of itself. If you can’t, learn better technique.
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Agreed. Some are asking if the two serve scenario could be viewed as independent events. I lean towards yes. 80% chance on both first and second.
Even if they were not independent events, the second serve outcome would depend on the individual server.
After missing the first, some servers would adjust and have >80% on the second.
After missing the first, some servers would feel the pressure and have <80% on the second.
Dragy
Legend
Well I’d say pressure is an independent event. I came to state of mind where I generally trust my kick serve, and I just go for it as I know nothing better. And when I’m match point down serving my second serve, I go for it. I kind of simultaneously:
- accept that I may miss it and loose right here
- trust it to carry me on
That being said, I lost a number of sets/matches with a double fault. It hurts in the moment, but actually it’s “how you got there” which matters much more. And it’s either double-faulting your whole match/crucial games, or it’s not. If the latter, who cares if last point lost was a DF.
Same for serving for match/set. You can DF, but get yourself another match point and try to close it again.
Sometimes pressure kicks in, but best approach is to have something you trust rather than change and slow down.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
To be on topic, I was only referring to trying to use "hard" serves in general, and I think lower levels try to use power more than they can control. I see that as one of the top reasons for inconsistency, but certainly not the only reason.
As far as comfortable, I used to promote building up serve speed in a match, especially if first serve percentage is low. Hell, I had to use that playing Saturday when for whatever reason I was off on first serves, so I just worked into pace using two second serves until my first was getting a bit more pop but was in more often than not.
3.0's by you must be really good.
i personally still have trouble consistently returning 95mph, and i play 4.5-5.0
i'd prefer to return dink serves all day...
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
Block not return
ichaseballs
Professional
you are only as good as your 2nd serve
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
What happens when you dink serve and hold serve at love because the opponent smashed all 4 serves long?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Stop playing against 3.0 players
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Have played tennis for 50+ years and taught for 25+ years. Own dozens of racquets. Why do you ask?
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
Watch the video and learn how real tennis works
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Real tennis? Hardly representative of a decent ATP match Not even typical for the Challenger match that it is. I assume that MM is suffering from a significant shoulder issue. His opponent can hardly be help up as an example of a competent returner.
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
I said opponents will crush dink serves long.
You said this was 3.0 level play
I gave you video proof of a top 150 ATP player who could not return a dink serve.
You do not understand tennis on any level.
QED.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Absurd example. Hardly typical. While an underhand serve can sometimes elicit a long return, 1 or 2 aberrant examples does not prove your assertion that “dink serves” will usually or often result in long returns
Note that “dink” implies “drop shot”. These are underhand but not drop shot serves. The returner you mentioned returned 4 “dink serves”, in a row, long. Even tho the ATP returner put in a pathetic performance, this is not what transpired. Altho Polanski ended up winning that match, he was undoubtedly mercilessly mocked for his performance.
Juvenile hyperbolic insults? C’mon, you can do better than that.
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a block is a return... and i still find blocking a 95mph serve deep, much harder to do consistently than handling a dink serve... perhaps i need to play with against more 3.0's to learn this...
while i am a fan of the underhand serve, most 3.0's by me do not have mcdonald's groundies&movement, which is the real weapon
perhaps i need to practice more against the 3.0's by you
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
Moot point.while i am a fan of the underhand serve, most 3.0's by me do not have mcdonald's groundies&movement, which is the real weapon
perhaps i need to practice more against the 3.0's by you
Polansky was blasting the serve returns long.
Could have been a guy with no legs serving underarm and still winning points
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
I stated that a 3.0 has more trouble with a dink serve than a 95mph block return.
3.0 can't hit an approach shot, which is a dink serve return.
Hence, a 3.0 has better odds of blocking a 95mph serve into play than spraying a dink serve, which requires 4.5 level strokes.
You're a 4.5, so my point stands
Want to see if someone can handle a dink serve? See their RPMs when they play mini-tennis
Dragy
Legend
Cmon, Polanski wasn’t blasting them long because he couldn’t put it in the court. He did it because there was Mackie who couldn’t serve, but otherwise could win any rally where return would be weaker and not pressing.
Dragy
Legend
There are ton of 3.0 variations, who cannot return dink serve, who cannot return 95 mph serve, who cannot run or cannot hit a
dannyslicer
Semi-Pro
That's not how words work
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
90% matchplay consistency seems out of this world for a second serve.
Also for @Steady Eddy: What I do is use the first serve twice at about 70-80% consistency and only use a dinky second serve once in a blue moon, like a drop shot, when they are staying way back to return my first serves.
Dragy
Legend
In a match between Ruusuvuori and Medvedev:
- Emil hit 68 2nd serves and made 4 DFs which is 94% consistency
- Daniil hit 71 second serves and made 8 DFs which is 89% consistency
And those guys use rather aggressive 2nd serves to prevent opponent from crushing it.
Although we can talk about how you can have like 80% 2nd serve consistency as a rec player and be fine. If you have 60% first serve, it’s like 1 DF on every 12-13 serve points. So in every 2nd serving game. Not too terrible, yet neither too good.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
That's more realistic though, won't you agree?
Dragy
Legend
Need to chart my match. I’m definitely not worse than 80% on second serves, but sometimes get better, like 1-2 DF in a 6-4/7-5 set.
I also don’t practice serve at all during winter, so I believe I can get much better. I may destroy my stats in first game if I haven’t warmed up my serve yet and framing it
yet further into the day/match I’m confident and consistent with kick serves.I’d be trying to reach 90, it’s a good goal, be disciplined to make it rather than try to hit sideline with my 2nd serve… Guilty though.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
But you are at least 4.5Need to chart my match. I’m definitely not worse than 80% on second serves, but sometimes get better, like 1-2 DF in a 6-4/7-5 set.
I also don’t practice serve at all during winter, so I believe I can get much better. I may destroy my stats in first game if I haven’t warmed up my serve yet and framing it
I’d be trying to reach 90, it’s a good goal, be disciplined to make it rather than try to hit sideline with my 2nd serve… Guilty though.
Dragy
Legend
And are we talking about 3.0, or what?But you are at least 4.5
Personally I’m the “wrong attitude” guy with this, who would say “as a 3.0 - don’t care about competition, develop your technique”. But I admit it’s not universe approach, for some it’s better to dink it in 90% (with 2 tries, 1st+2nd).
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Well, even pros have 47% first serve in, like last night in Tsitsi vs Fritz so your percentages seems high to me....
Dragy
Legend
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I seem to remember one being 49% during the live match, last night. Maybe it was for a set, that's why overall all it ended up at 63%?Where did you get this?
Dragy
Legend
Yeah, possible. But overall top pros percentages are pretty well know. Some serve more risky, some more consistently, in most men matches it’s over 60 and up to 70. 75+ is when someone is absolutely on fire, or when someone serves conservatively because not going to get much advantage for the amount of risk, like Schwartzman for example.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Does it make sense to write a thread to find excuses for not improving swing mechanics on serve?
imo, OP asks a valid question and states his preference. He likes the idea of hitting two serves at the same slower speed( 70 and 70mph in his example at 80% success rate) than his peer group which seems to prefer 80 and 40mph at a success rate of 50 and 100%.
If you double click on what OP states, his idea does have something worth debating. imo, he is not excluding the idea of improving serve technique after the current match.
Given what he has that day, his strategy produces an average speed of 70 at 96% success rate(1 double fault for every 25 serves going by his 4/5 ).
His peer group produces 60mph at 100% success rate (no double fault since 40 mph second serve is 100% accurate according to what he implied).
Now what's better 70 at 96% or 60 at 100%? Over the course of a typical match, the first option generates 6720 units (70 * 100 * 96/100) of "tennis power".
The second option generates 6000 units (60*100*100/100) of tennis power. Since 6720 > 6000, the first option is clearly superior in the long run.
*assumption: around 100 serves per BO3 match based on USTA stats.
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johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
It's just not how I would try to improve serves. I want to build a biomechanically decent motion in stage one. For me that means hitting 200 flat serves of mid 80 to low 90 a day, twice a week, and won't lead to injury anywhere. The next would be learning variety in stage two. I would learn all different types of serves. Flat with minor topspin, hard slice, topslice, kick, twist, while keeping track of percentages. If Im hitting them correctly, none of the spin serves will be half of speed of my flat serve. In stage 3, I really start to chase percentage for specific placement with each serve type. The goal is to have an efficient motion, decent pace in both first second serve, and eventually hitting each target with different spins (credit to socalefty) with desired percentage.
I don't want to think too much about how to cut the cake, before making it as big as I can.
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Did you mean to pivot to serve improvement topic instead of what OP stated? I'm not suggesting you can't bring up an irrelevant subject, but the thread is not about serve technique or improvement ideas.
It's the strategy question with what a player has at this current time.
