Federer and Djokovic - Two greatest Hard Court players ever?
- Thread starter Zain786
- Start date
C
Charlie
Guest
I am very content with his career. Now why can't you just for a moment stop being a pathetic little crybaby because someone had a lot of success at the expense of Federer? Djokovic has beaten him several times before 2011 as well, you know. Also, Federer has been a very tough competitor in most of the seasons after that but of course you are going to ignore both of those facts. Nadal is a tier below both on hard courts so I don't even see the point of bringing him up. As for the vacuum excuse, let me just remind you that Djokovic of the past few years is a tougher player than anyone Federer faced on hard courts during his best years, with only Safin's few AO performances maybe being on par. Even Federer of today is one hell of a player on the surface. Again, well done.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
The same could apply to weakera clown poster. Please ignore him
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
AO is the only reason?
8 hard court Majors, second best ever.
Five World Tour Finals, joint second best and only one behind Federer.
51 hard court titles, again second best.
Most Masters. Equal or better than Federer at all of them except Cincinnati where it's one sided.
Yeah, second best doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the best, well done.
Slaylie.I am very content with his career. Now why can't you just for a moment stop being a pathetic little crybaby because someone had a lot of success at the expense of Federer? Djokovic has beaten him several times before 2011 as well, you know. Also, Federer has been a very tough competitor in most of the seasons after that but of course you are going to ignore both of those facts. Nadal is a tier below both on hard courts so I don't even see the point of bringing him up. As for the vacuum excuse, let me just remind you that Djokovic of the past few years is a tougher player than anyone Federer faced on hard courts during his best years, with only Safin's few AO performances maybe being on par. Even Federer of today is one hell of a player on the surface. Again, well done.
Sampras was not better on slow hardcourt than Djokovic is on fast hardcourt. Also he didn’t dominate there in any way.
Sampras won 2 Slams at the slower AO
Djokovic won 2 Slams at the faster USO
Sampras won 5 combined titles at the classic slow HC masters at Indian Wells and Miami
Djokovic won 4 titles at the fast Canada Masters and 3 additional Shanghai titles (which weren’t available for Sampras of course).
Sampras only won 3 Cincinnati Masters and no one in Canada, so concerning Masters Djokovic was even better at the favored surface of Sampras.
Indoors they are quite even with YEC and Masters titles. Sampras won some of them on carpet, but I’m quite sure it would have been no difference concerning his success if those tournaments were on indoor hard back then.
Then we also have the dominant eras of Nole in 2011, 2015 and the early 2016. Sampras only had a short time in early 1994 where he was really dominant against the field.
I have no idea how you see Sampras as an overall dominant player and Djokovic not, despite all statistics are in favor of Nole.
Even if you are a person who says “Masters are nothing”, then Djokovic has his additional Slam on his favourite court which seals the deal.
Paul Harman
Semi-Pro
Federer has a small weaner.
Zebrev
Hall of Fame
Yes, a cult bubble where Federer has 18 slams. We're crazy that way.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
It's funny you know. Call me naive but I kinda thought the general consensus for some time now was that Djokovic is considered at least the second greatest ever HC player but bloody hell, some of y'all don't even wanna bestow that title on him! I'm sorry but there's simply no reasonable explanation for this whichever way you want to spin it. I'm all for someone being ranked above another player even if he has one less slam as is the case with Sampras vs Djokovic but there has to be something pretty substantial to offset that deficit and I'm at a loss as to what Pete has in his resume to do so. As well as having one more major Novak also has two more finals, the same amount of WTFs(+ 1 RU) and 12(!) more Masters 1000s and as for comparing their consistency on the surface, well let's not even go there.
It's a pity that in threads such as this one all objectivity tends to go out the window and haters' loathing of a certain player rears its ugly head big time. Thank God I have the vast majority of them on ignore these days.
It's a pity that in threads such as this one all objectivity tends to go out the window and haters' loathing of a certain player rears its ugly head big time. Thank God I have the vast majority of them on ignore these days.
smoledman
G.O.A.T.
I guess some fedfans are proud of that drivel. Considering the fact from who it comes it wouldn't be surprisng at all.
His post shows how deep butthurt really is.
Anyway it's good to have them , they represent The cult quite well.
Maybe Nole fans should wipe the drool of their chins and understand that 30 is a brick wall in tennis. Nole post 30 is not going to be the same player he was before. The big titles are going to dry up. Won't be obvious for a couple of years.
Noelan
Legend
For gloryhunter like yourself I think it's better to not preach to anyone what he/she could understand in tennis.
I'm more than a proud of Novak career , not only on HC
on the other side you can be bitter as much as you want. That doesn't change the facts what kind of a player and champ on all surfaces (including his favorite hard court) even if he is about to retire tomorow or play another 5 years
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Can't believe you don't get tired of harping on the same old string.
Sampras is hard to place because he somewhat half-assed his efforts outside the slams.
Could he have dominated the Masters if he'd given it his full focus? Maybe, maybe not but I can't fault him for his approach.
The end goal was being number 1. And he succeeded at that. With that in mind, why bust a gut in Toronto or Miami?
Agassi should be right up there with Sampras. He has one fewer slam and one fewer final while having a significantly better masters resume. Only player to complete both IW-Miami and Canada-Cincinnati double. Not much in it between him and Sampras.
Federer and Djokovic are half a cut above, I think.
Djokovic has the best return game of the lot and a significantly better service game than Agassi.
Federer is on par with Sampras as a server and has a significantly better return game.
Could he have dominated the Masters if he'd given it his full focus? Maybe, maybe not but I can't fault him for his approach.
The end goal was being number 1. And he succeeded at that. With that in mind, why bust a gut in Toronto or Miami?
Agassi should be right up there with Sampras. He has one fewer slam and one fewer final while having a significantly better masters resume. Only player to complete both IW-Miami and Canada-Cincinnati double. Not much in it between him and Sampras.
Federer and Djokovic are half a cut above, I think.
Djokovic has the best return game of the lot and a significantly better service game than Agassi.
Federer is on par with Sampras as a server and has a significantly better return game.
C
Charlie
Guest
A guy who can't close a case in his head is going to make a call for other people.
Someone give this guy a big round red nose, white make up and a pair of gigantic shoes.
captainbryce
Hall of Fame
The Australian Open changed from Rebound Ace to Plexicushion in 2008, resulting in a variable speed court that alternates between medium slow to medium fast. But the surface at the US Open has been the same since 1997. The speed is only tinkered with from year to year. But it has always been consistently faster than the AO.
captainbryce
Hall of Fame
I agree with all of that EXCEPT Djokovic having a "significantly better service game than Agassi". What are you basing that on exactly?
Don't know if he deserve to be in the same sentence but to counter-argue by using the H2H is rather weak. I mean would you use Kyrgios H2H over Nole on hard court to debate who's greater? Of course not since it's a straw man. Capiche?
And Djokovic is 2-1 vs fed at Wimbeldon; would you put him in the same class as Federer on grass?
@captainbryce
Mostly the serve itself - 1st on its own and 2nd in conjunction with their respective ground games.
Djokovic's 1st serve gets him more free points and sets him up to control the point better than Agassi's did (but Agassi's offensive ground game is more potent)
On 2nd serve, Agassi had a problem. Djokovic's not just better, but can back it up better with defensive ground game if necessary.
How do you see it?
Mostly the serve itself - 1st on its own and 2nd in conjunction with their respective ground games.
Djokovic's 1st serve gets him more free points and sets him up to control the point better than Agassi's did (but Agassi's offensive ground game is more potent)
On 2nd serve, Agassi had a problem. Djokovic's not just better, but can back it up better with defensive ground game if necessary.
How do you see it?
Last edited:
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fed won 4 of his 6 WTF titles in BO5 finals. It's also because of that format that he doesn't have an extra title. He would have won the 2005 final had it been BO3 like nowadays.
I agree Djokovic needs more USO titles. In a debate concerning him against Federer in terms of HC greatness, Novak's USO record puts him at a disadvantage, especially when you factor in that Fed's HC resume is very balanced (5 AO titles and 5 USO titles) and he also has a dominant record at both HC slams.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Federer:
Total HC majors: 10 (5 USO, 5 AO)
AO finals: 6 (83.3% win rate)
USO finals: 7 (71.4% win rate)
Total HC masters: 19 (5 IW, 2 Miami, 2 Canada, 1 Shanghai, 7 Cincinnati, 1 Paris, 1 Madrid)
Novak:
Total HC majors: 8 (2 USO, 6 AO)
AO finals: 6 (100% win rate)
USO finals: 7 (28.6% win rate)
Total HC masters: 22 (5 IW, 6 Miami, 4 Canada, 0 Cincinnati, 3 Shanghai, 4 Paris)
Sampras:
Total HC majors: 7 (5 USO, 2 AO)
AO finals: 3 (66.6% win rate)
USO finals: 8 (62.5% win rate)
Total HC masters: 8 (2 IW, 3 Miami, 3 Cincinnati)
Agassi:
Total HC majors: 6 (2 USO, 4 AO)
AO finals: 4 (100% win rate)
USO finals: 6 (33.3% win rate)
Total HC masters: 14 (1 IW, 6 Miami, 3 Canada, 3 Cincinnati, 1 Madrid)
Lendl:
Total HC majors: 5 (3 USO, 2 AO)
AO finals: 4 (50.0% win rate)
USO finals: 8 (37.5% win rate)
Total HC masters: 10
Connors:
Total HC majors: 3 (3 USO, 0 AO)
AO finals: 0 (0% win rate)
USO finals: 3 (100% win rate)
Total HC masters: 5 (2 LA, 2 Las Vegas, 2 Johannesburg)
If Djokovic was able to convert 2 more USO, so that he matched Federer's 10 HC majors, I'd consider him #1 based off of Master's, but the truth is blatantly obvious. Federer is clearly the #1 HC ever. He won a balanced 5-5 in both HC slams, with about the same final conversion rate. He is very consistent. On the other hand. Novak seems to prefer the AO over the USO, making him the best slow HC player ever, but not even close to being the best fast HC player. Novak's 28.6% win rate in the USO makes him #2 in my book.
If Sampras was able to get a few more AOs, I'd put him above Djokovic. However, Sampras has as many AOs as Novak has USOs. That makes Sampras biased toward the fast court. Also considering Nole's greater Master's count, Sampras is #3 for me.
The other two are easy to sort. Agassi clearly leads Lendl in the stats- being ahead of him or equal to him in all but USO finals/win rate. Agassi offsets the 2 USO finals that Lendl has on him with a 100% win rate in AO finals and 1 more HC slam than Lendl has. Connors clearly doesn't even compare to Lendl. Just looking at the finals, Lendl clearly leads the HC claim to fame.
Hence-
#1- Federer
#2- Djokovic
#3- Sampras
#4- Agassi
#5- Lendl
#6- Connors
Total HC majors: 10 (5 USO, 5 AO)
AO finals: 6 (83.3% win rate)
USO finals: 7 (71.4% win rate)
Total HC masters: 19 (5 IW, 2 Miami, 2 Canada, 1 Shanghai, 7 Cincinnati, 1 Paris, 1 Madrid)
Novak:
Total HC majors: 8 (2 USO, 6 AO)
AO finals: 6 (100% win rate)
USO finals: 7 (28.6% win rate)
Total HC masters: 22 (5 IW, 6 Miami, 4 Canada, 0 Cincinnati, 3 Shanghai, 4 Paris)
Sampras:
Total HC majors: 7 (5 USO, 2 AO)
AO finals: 3 (66.6% win rate)
USO finals: 8 (62.5% win rate)
Total HC masters: 8 (2 IW, 3 Miami, 3 Cincinnati)
Agassi:
Total HC majors: 6 (2 USO, 4 AO)
AO finals: 4 (100% win rate)
USO finals: 6 (33.3% win rate)
Total HC masters: 14 (1 IW, 6 Miami, 3 Canada, 3 Cincinnati, 1 Madrid)
Lendl:
Total HC majors: 5 (3 USO, 2 AO)
AO finals: 4 (50.0% win rate)
USO finals: 8 (37.5% win rate)
Total HC masters: 10
Connors:
Total HC majors: 3 (3 USO, 0 AO)
AO finals: 0 (0% win rate)
USO finals: 3 (100% win rate)
Total HC masters: 5 (2 LA, 2 Las Vegas, 2 Johannesburg)
If Djokovic was able to convert 2 more USO, so that he matched Federer's 10 HC majors, I'd consider him #1 based off of Master's, but the truth is blatantly obvious. Federer is clearly the #1 HC ever. He won a balanced 5-5 in both HC slams, with about the same final conversion rate. He is very consistent. On the other hand. Novak seems to prefer the AO over the USO, making him the best slow HC player ever, but not even close to being the best fast HC player. Novak's 28.6% win rate in the USO makes him #2 in my book.
If Sampras was able to get a few more AOs, I'd put him above Djokovic. However, Sampras has as many AOs as Novak has USOs. That makes Sampras biased toward the fast court. Also considering Nole's greater Master's count, Sampras is #3 for me.
The other two are easy to sort. Agassi clearly leads Lendl in the stats- being ahead of him or equal to him in all but USO finals/win rate. Agassi offsets the 2 USO finals that Lendl has on him with a 100% win rate in AO finals and 1 more HC slam than Lendl has. Connors clearly doesn't even compare to Lendl. Just looking at the finals, Lendl clearly leads the HC claim to fame.
Hence-
#1- Federer
#2- Djokovic
#3- Sampras
#4- Agassi
#5- Lendl
#6- Connors
Last edited:
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Hadn't considered Connors. Forgot about him! Oops!
abmk
Bionic Poster
^^ @TripleATeam : Connors only won USO 3 times on HC. one time he won on grass(74) and one more time on Har Tru (green clay).
the AO he won was on grass as well.
the AO he won was on grass as well.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Indeed. It will be amended.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
7 finals is pretty good. If you want to talk about underwhelming, consider Sampras' 3 AO finals.
2 AOs for Sampras = 2 USO for Djoker.
90's Clay
Banned
Peak Agassi in 1995 and 2000 Stopped Pete from getting 4 AO titles. He was also injured for a few.
They have also slowed the USO down over the years. Nole SHOULD have won more there. The Surface isn't as fast as it used to be
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
GOATing Rafa stopped Novak in his 2 best years (2010, 2013). (At the time) Perennial #4 Murray stopped Novak from getting another USO, I grant you that. Another time, Novak was stopped by the #1 HC player ever in his peak (2007) and was finally stopped by Stanimal in 2016.
I grant you that Agassi was very good back then. I also grant you that Novak probably should not have lost to Murray and Stan. However, Nadal was doing very well in 2010 and 2013, and Roger is Roger.
90's Clay
Banned
Novak is a better player HC player than Rafa. So why is he 1-2 at the USO vs him? Same goes for Fed really? What is he like 1-4 at the AO vs. Rafa? For what? Fed is better on hardcourts. Fed was close to going 0-4 vs. Rafa at the AO
Both knock Fed/Nole down a notches IMO. NEITHER should have losing records to Rafa at one of the slams.
duaneeo
Legend
My sentiments exactly.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
I'm guessing it was just Rafa peaking. I don't have an answer- it happened. However, Rafa is one of the best tennis players to ever live. It's not unthinkable that he'd have a few wins on HC against some of the best HC players to ever grace the game.
Either Fed and Nole were off their game or Nadal was REALLY on it. I lean towards the second possibility.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Not to mention the other semis which Djokovic lost to a prime Fed at the USO: 2008 and 2009.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yes, Agassi did stop Pete at the AO when he was in decent form, however Pete also lost to inferior players before the semis/final of AO. Remember 19 year old Phillippoussis in 1996.
Djokovic reached at least the semis or final every year between 2007-2016. That's 10 straight years of reaching at least the semis or final.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Not just Murray and Stan. Nishikori in 2014 too.
abmk
Bionic Poster
sampras going 0-1 vs korda & 1-2 vs yzaga in HC slams, losing to phillippoussis, kucera at the AO knocks him down far more ...
federer is 1-3 vs rafa at the AO, but 2 of those 3 losses were when federer was past his prime ( 12, 14) . only 09 was prime federer .
but past his prime federer too care of past his prime nadal in 2017 AO.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Please, losing to Rafa is still better than losing to Yzaga or Phillippoussis at your very peak.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Would've been an easy place to pick up another USO, but Federer did also lose to Cilic. That year was just weird. No other way to describe it.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Both actually. Novak in 2013 USO was sub par, just like Fed at the 2014 AO.
90's Clay
Banned
Decent form?? It was the best form Andre was ever win.. Arguably the highest level for a player EVER on Hardcourts
mike danny
Bionic Poster
When I said decent form, I was referring to Pete. Not at his best, but good enough to win those 2 AO titles he lost to Andre in 1995 and 2000.
90's Clay
Banned
I don't think any player would have ever beat Andre in either year. Especially in 1995
1995 AO Agassi was probably the best, not only HC level ever, but maybe the best level PERIOD on any surface.
Agassi's 1995 AO level ranks right up there with Rafa's 2008 RG level. Maybe higher IMO because Rafa never had much for way of competition on clay. Rafa's main clay competition was Fed (who in his prime couldn't even handle plastic hip far past prime Guga at the French)
abmk
Bionic Poster
lol, bwahaha , no, no
arguably 3 players have played peak level higher than agassi at that AO - safin ( 05 ), federer, djokovic
comparing agassi of AO 95 to rafa in RG 08 is a joke.
you make a big deal of federer losing to guga in 04, agassi losing to vince spadea at the AO in 99 is much worse and a massive joke.
D
Deleted member 743561
Guest
.
Last edited by a moderator:
