Federer is the one turning around rivalry with Nadal, in his favor.

MoFed said:
Nadal is a grinder. He runs everything down on the court. If he doesn't change his style he will wear himself out sooner rather than later. This is part of the reason he doesn't have a lot left in the tank when the end of the year rolls around. I think he makes the push on clay because he can earn a lot of points during the clay season and still stay the no. 2 player.

You could see Nadal's defeat on clay coming the last couple of tournaments. He was being pushed around by Hewitt and Davydenko. Two players who should have defeated him they were playing so well and then choked. He didn't get the choke factor from Fed this time.
Click to expand...

Hewitt and Davydenko didn´t choke. Nadal played better in most of the big points as usual.
 
@wright said:
What would happen if someone admitted to being a troll? Would the TW universe tear into pieces? Could it be that trolling is fun sometimes?
Click to expand...

aaahhh young grasshopper. You have much to learn. The best of trolls are those that stay hidden. Otherwise people soon realise not to listen to a word you say. Either that or they put you on their ignore list.
 
Last edited:
fastdunn said:
He did recovered some but I wouldn't rate it as "#2 clay courter" level.
The way his serve going on and off. And the footwork and all the mis-firings
of ground strokes. The way he struggled against Ferrer and Moya.
No where near where was in 2006.

Last 2 sets of the Hamburg final weren't really about Federer's taking charge.
It was more about Nadal's unforced errors (which was very unusual).
I really did not get the impression that Nadal was pushed hard.
I persoanlly think Nadal decided to tank after he failed to convert a few break points
at the beginning of the 2nd set.

Even with a top form, Federer was going to be defeated by Nalbandian
at semi final last year. I think he needs some luck(like easy draw) to reach
quarter-final this year, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Federer reached the final of 2 of the 3 Masters events played on clay. Nobody else reached the final of more then 1 obviously, other then Nadal of course. Federer is also the one who beat Nadal on clay. So he is easily the level of the #2 clay courter going into the French. Who else would you give the title too? David Ferrer. Tommy Robredo. Fernando Gonzalez. LOL!

In the last 2 sets of the Hamburg final Federer had about double the winners of Nadal. It was indeed about him taking charge. To suggest Nadal would choose to tank a loss on clay, to Federer of all people, is one of the most ludricious things I have ever heard.

Federer was not playing his top form in the semis of the French last year, and he was still going to beat Nalbandian. You think he needs some luck to reach the French Open quarters when he is just coming off winning a Masters title on clay, and has reached the final of 5 of his last 6 events on clay-all Masters events or the French Open? I am not more glad then ever you are the one I chose to make that bet with.
 
fastdunn said:
There is no question that Federer is improving "his game against Nadal on clay".
It would take a player with no talent not to improve while playing
against (and losing to) Nadal repeatedly on clay.

But in overall, Note that Nadal vastly improved his slam performaces
in Australian, Wimbledon, and US Open.
Click to expand...

Nadal did improve his performance at Wimbledon last year, but that just means he is going to see it regress yet again since it is almost impossible for him to match last years result(final). In fact I highly doubt he ever reaches another Wimbledon final. His U.S Open result is only improved since he drew his #1 nemisis James Blake in the 3rd round in 2005. Had he not drawn Blake he would have made the semis or finals. In 2006 he lost in the quarters. His Australian Open result was only improved since he did not even play in 2006. Many believe he would have won the title, or atleast reached the final in 2006. In 2007 he loses in the quarters. So the only place I see really improvement is Wimbledon, and that is bound to be short lived.

And also I'm highly skeptical that Federer will eventually turn the table in terms of his records against Nadal. It's just not a good macth up

Federer will have problem with this special lefty Nadal until the end of his
career.
Click to expand...

Be skeptical all you want. I pointed out Federer has won 3 of the last 4 matches, 3 wins on 3 different surfaces, after Nadal had won 6 of the first 7 matches. Federer's recent wins include a win on clay, and his first "straight sets" win over Nadal on hard courts. That is evidence to the contrary of what you are saying. He already is turning the table on Nadal, like it or not.

Plus he is turning 26 pretty soon.
Click to expand...

Nadal in tennis terms is atleast as old as Federer. Someone who plays like him, schedules the way he does, puts strain on their body the way he does, will not have much longevity at all. I will be very surprised if Nadal is even in the top 5 still in 3 years time. Federer will still be at the top level until he is 30 atleast, even if he is not #1 he will still be fighting for the #1 ranking and winning slams by then.

If Federer ends his career without French, it's not becasue he does not
have game one clay. He is one of the greatest clay courters I've seen.
He is very unlucky to have Nadal as #2 in his career...
Click to expand...

Naw he would have been much more unlucky to have Borg, Vilas, Lendl, or Wilander in their primes on clay, all who are much better then Nadal. Fed is just unlucky to have clay as his worst surface in an era of sucky clay court tennis, with only 1 great clay courter in Nadal to face. He certainly is not unlucky to play now, only 1 great on clay in Nadal who is less great then other past greats on clay who were less dominant because of better competition, and no depth on clay after that. Nadal is the lucky one to face no good clay courters at all today, instead of facing the much tougher clay court fields of years gone by. Very lucky indeed.
 
idiotboy said:
aaahhh young grasshopper. You have much to learn. The best of trolls are those that stay hidden. Otherwise people soon realise not to listen to a word you say. Either that or they put you on their ignore list.
Click to expand...

My heart tells me you made a good point, but my brain tells me not to listen to someone with your screen name or post count.
 
BTW guys, Youtube's got footage of Hamburg now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_dzmbYC_o

That's wishful thinking. No way Nalbandian was going to beat Federer. Federer has dominated their recent match-ups, and was winning when Nalbandian retired (also, staying healthy is a part of the game; the way they used to play, there weren't even any injury timeouts).
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think that game could have gone either way. It was pretty close until it was clear Nalby wasn't fit to play anymore.

The way his serve going on and off. And the footwork and all the mis-firings
of ground strokes. The way he struggled against Ferrer and Moya.
No where near where was in 2006.
Click to expand...

Trust me -- I definitely thought going into Hamburg, he was setting himself up for disaster. To go without your coach right before a GS just doesn't bode well. But, even that wacky first game of Hamburg, it looked like Federer wanted to put his backhand to the test on clay, even if he had to struggle through it. I'm not sure what's up with his service game, but I'm sure he'll fix that.

I guess what surprises me from the footage is that Fed's just not slicing on Nadal's FH. He's taking the ball early, sure, but he's still taking the ball pretty high and yet making great contact. I mean, Fed's topspin BH flat out was returning Nadal's FH solidly. His net approaches look good too, much more methodical than earlier this year.
 
Federer is and always will the much better player outside of clay. The question is only is he turning the rivarly around on clay. I hope he turns it around to the point they are closer and more competitive with each other is all. Extreme domination on one surface like Nadal's on clay is bad for the game.
 
dh003i said:
This is always brought up by some people, as if Nadal has unlimited potential to improve his game exponentially, because he's 20, and because of how much Federer improved his game from 20 to 25. They have different games, which tend to mature at different times.

Nadal is in the prime of his career right now, as is Federer. They are in their primes in different ages because they have different kinds of games.
Click to expand...

It does seem like Nadal is in his prime, but at 20, he surely has a lot to learn. He's probably in his prime on clay, but he could get real good on hards and lawns. He even made it to the finals of The Championships barely out of his teens. Pretty impressive for a kid who grew up on clay.
 
Just like I said Federer is the one turning his rivalry with Nadal around in his favor, not vice versa. Nadal was once 6-1 vs Federer, now that once large lead has dwindled to 8-6, with Federer going 5-2 vs Nadal in their last 7 matches. Nadal won 2 of his first 3 matches with Federer on hard courts, and Federer's only win took a full 5 sets in a best 3-of-5 after losing the first 2 sets. Their last 2 matches on hard courts however Federer won in straight sets, and their last match was Roger's easiest win ever.


To break it down closer, Nadals first 7 matches with Federer:

2004 Miami 3rd round- Nadal defeats Federer 6-3, 6-3
2005 Miami final- Federer defeats Nadal 2-6, 6-7(4). 7-6(5). 6-3. 6-1
2005 French Open semis- Nadal defeats Federer 6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3
2006 Dubai final- Nadal defeats Federer 2-6, 6-4, 6-4
2006 Monte Carlo final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-2, 6-7(2), 6-3, 7-6(5)
2006 Roma final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-7(0), 7-6(5), 6-4, 2-6, 7-6(5)
2006 French Open final- Nadal defeats Federer 1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6(4)

now Federer's last 7 matches with Nadal:

2006 Wimbledon final- Federer defeats Nadal 6-0, 7-6(5), 6-7(2), 6-3
2006 Masters Cup semis- Federer defeats Nadal 6-4, 7-5
2007 Monte Carlo final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-4, 6-4
2007 Hamburg final- Federer defeats Nadal 2-6, 6-2, 6-0
2007 French Open final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4
2007 Wimbledon final- Federer defeats Nadal 7-6(7), 4-6, 7-6(3), 2-6, 6-2
2007 Masters semis- Federer defeats Nadal 6-4, 6-1

The difference is fairly obvious. Nadal goes from having the edge on hard courts to being increasingly outclassed on hard courts in recent meetings. Despite now being a stronger player on grass now then he ever was on hard courts, Nadal cant beat Federer on grass when he used to be able to beat him on his now worst surface of hard courts. Even on clay Nadal takes his first ever defeat to Federer.


Now their 5 matches on hard courts only:

2004 Miami 3rd round- Nadal defeats Federer 6-3, 6-3
2005 Miami final- Federer defeats Nadal 2-6, 6-7(4). 7-6(5). 6-3. 6-1
2006 Dubai final- Nadal defeats Federer 2-6, 6-4, 6-4
2006 Masters Cup semis- Federer defeats Nadal 6-4, 7-5
2007 Masters semis- Federer defeats Nadal 6-4, 6-1

So Nadal goes from dominating Federer their first meeting, losing a match he should have won in straight sets in the second, winning a match he should have lost in straight sets in the 3rd, losing a match in straight sets in a 4th, then getting clobbered in straight sets in the 5th.
 
federerfanatic said:
Alot of people seem to think Nadal is closing the gap on Federer. In reality Federer is turning around his rivalry with Nadal. He has now won 3 of his last 4 matches with Nadal, on 3 different surfaces, after losing 6 of the first 7 including 2 of 3 on hard courts. Here is there head to head in two parts:

Parts 1:

2004 Nasdaq 3rd round: Nadal wins 6-3 6-3
2005 Miami final: Federer wins 2-6 6-7(4) 7-6(5) 6-3 6-1
2005 French Open semis: Nadal wins 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-3
2005 Dubai final: Nadal wins 2-6 6-4 6-4
2006 Monte Carlo final: Nadal wins 6-2 6-7(2) 6-3 7-6(5)
2006 Rome final: Nadal wins 6-7(0) 7-6(5) 6-4 2-6 7-6(5)
2006 French Open final: Nadal wins 1-6 6-1 6-4 7-6(4)


Part 2:

2006 Wimbledon final: Federer wins 6-0 7-6(5) 6-7(2) 6-3
2006 Year end Masters semis: Federer wins 6-4 7-5
2007 Monte Carlo final: Nadal wins 6-4 6-4
2007 Hamburg final: Federer wins 2-6 6-2 6-0

Federer is the one turning the rivalry around in his favor more and more of late, not the other way around. Nadal's one win came on clay during a horrible Federer slump too, probably the worst slump he has had in over 4 years which included losses to Canas(twice) and Volandri in his other 3 tournaments during that period.
Click to expand...


Federer lost to Nadal in the French Open this year as well as in 2006.
 
Yeah, until the clay season returns and he'll be back up about 4 matches in the h2h. You might wanna add a grass court one too. wink wink.
 
noeledmonds said:
Federer lost to Nadal in the French Open this year as well as in 2006.
Click to expand...

Yes and I posted among the listed results already:

2004 Miami 3rd round- Nadal defeats Federer 6-3, 6-3
2005 Miami final- Federer defeats Nadal 2-6, 6-7(4). 7-6(5). 6-3. 6-1
2005 French Open semis- Nadal defeats Federer 6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3
2006 Dubai final- Nadal defeats Federer 2-6, 6-4, 6-4
2006 Monte Carlo final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-2, 6-7(2), 6-3, 7-6(5)
2006 Roma final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-7(0), 7-6(5), 6-4, 2-6, 7-6(5)
2006 French Open final- Nadal defeats Federer 1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6(4)

now Federer's last 7 matches with Nadal:

2006 Wimbledon final- Federer defeats Nadal 6-0, 7-6(5), 6-7(2), 6-3
2006 Masters Cup semis- Federer defeats Nadal 6-4, 7-5
2007 Monte Carlo final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-4, 6-4
2007 Hamburg final- Federer defeats Nadal 2-6, 6-2, 6-0
2007 French Open final- Nadal defeats Federer 6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4
2007 Wimbledon final- Federer defeats Nadal 7-6(7), 4-6, 7-6(3), 2-6, 6-2
2007 Masters semis- Federer defeats Nadal 6-4, 6-1
Click to expand...
 
Morrissey said:
Yeah, until the clay season returns and he'll be back up about 4 matches in the h2h.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

Actually, scratch that. I don't see Fed getting 4 chances at Nadal in the clay season. Not with the likes of Volandri, Nalby, Gonzo, Djoker, Canas, etc. floating around in the draw.
 
johnny ballgame said:
Bingo.

Actually, scratch that. I don't see Fed getting 4 chances at Nadal in the clay season. Not with the likes of Volandri, Nalby, Gonzo, Djoker, Canas, etc. floating around in the draw.
Click to expand...

Yeah your predictions are great forecasters, like the poll about the Masters Cup which excluded Gasquet yet included Chela (ROTFL), or the one trying brainwash people more intelligent then yourself (aka-everyone who can type) that Nadal was going to end the year #1 because he led the ATP Race. I am comforted you think Fed will lose alot, it can only mean the opposite. For what will not happen you can always rely on johnny ******. :p
 
federerfanatic said:
Yeah your predictions are great forecasters, like the poll about the Masters Cup which excluded Gasquet yet included Chela (ROTFL), or the one trying brainwash people more intelligent then yourself (aka-everyone who can type) that Nadal was going to end the year #1 because he led the ATP Race. I am comforted you think Fed will lose alot, it can only mean the opposite. For what will not happen you can always rely on johnny ******. :p
Click to expand...
lmao fedfanatic!
 
federerfanatic said:
Now their 5 matches on hard courts only:
2007 Masters semis- Federer defeats Nadal 6-4, 6-1

So Nadal goes from dominating Federer their first meeting, losing a match he should have won in straight sets in the second, winning a match he should have lost in straight sets in the 3rd, losing a match in straight sets in a 4th, then getting clobbered in straight sets in the 5th.
Click to expand...
Carrrrrrrrpet.
 
Rafa will dominate federer again when the clay season comes back. This nagging knee injury is affecting rafa's confidence on the hard courts.
 
^^^ Well Federer has now beaten Rafa 5 out of the last 7 times they've played, over all surfaces. Rafa better pray he doesn't meet Nalbandian on the dirt too....
 
Fedace said:
Rafa will dominate federer again when the clay season comes back. This nagging knee injury is affecting rafa's confidence on the hard courts.
Click to expand...

More like his not-so-great hard court game is affecting his confidence on the hard courts. Nadal will never be a great hard court player or even close to it. The best he can hope to be is remain king of clay but even that wont last forever.
 
I'm not a Nadal fan, but I'm just amazed at all the hate and underrating he recieves here. IMO he can be a decent HC player and will remain great on clay for some time.
 
Well,if it wasn't for Nadal....Fed would be the undisputed g.o.a.t a long time ago(unless you think he has to get more than 14 slams no matter what)....Can you think of another g.o.a.t. contender who's gotten knocked off 3 times in a row at the same tournament by the same player?talk about a "ball buster".Hence,the resentment(and admiration amongst nadal fans) towards Nadal.
2008,however,doesn't seem so predictable for the French open finals:you got Nalby,Ferrer(other players as well) playing some serious tennis.So,it doesn't seem like strictly a Fed-Nadal affair anymore......only time will tell,of course.
 
Ball's Out said:
Well,if it wasn't for Nadal....Fed would be the undisputed g.o.a.t a long time ago(unless you think he has to get more than 14 slams no matter what)....Can you think of another g.o.a.t. contender who's gotten knocked off 3 times in a row at the same tournament by the same player?talk about a "ball buster".Hence,the resentment(and admiration amongst nadal fans) towards Nadal.
2008,however,doesn't seem so predictable for the French open finals:you got Nalby,Ferrer(other players as well) playing some serious tennis.So,it doesn't seem like strictly a Fed-Nadal affair anymore......only time will tell,of course.
Click to expand...

If it wasn't for Nadal, Fed would already have 15 GS. he is at 12 now, and he would have had 3 more FO.
 
FedForGOAT said:
I'm not a Nadal fan, but I'm just amazed at all the hate and underrating he recieves here. IMO he can be a decent HC player and will remain great on clay for some time.
Click to expand...

There is a lot of hate not just against Nadal but Federer too. Nadal is already a decent HC player but will never dominate on HC like he does on clay, no matter what improvements he makes.
 
drakulie said:
Yup, with or without the French, to me, he is the greatest player I've ever seen. The French would be sweet.

I really enjoyed watching the match today and seeing the tactics emplyed by Fed>>> roll the ball to Nadal's FH, step in and take his reply down the line. beautiful! He needs to fix that service problem though.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Have to say... yes to that. French or no French.. Best I have ever seen.

Steve
 
Zaragoza said:
I think it´s Federer who should pray to don´t meet Nalbandian on clay.
Click to expand...

Yeah but Federers already met Nalbandian on clay, just off the top of my head I can think of two occasions (Fed won both).
My point is that somehow Nadal has been able to sidestep the Nalbandian landmine for years now, and it's finally caught up with him, as it will do on clay sooner or later.
 
Rhino said:
Yeah but Federers already met Nalbandian on clay, just off the top of my head I can think of two occasions (Fed won both).
My point is that somehow Nadal has been able to sidestep the Nalbandian landmine for years now, and it's finally caught up with him, as it will do on clay sooner or later.
Click to expand...

I think overall Nalbandian is a bad match-up for Nadal because he has the best two-hander on the tour,however Nadal is a different beast on clay.Beating Nadal on hardcourts (his worst surface by far) is not an indicator of how you will fare against him on clay.Two times I remember Fed played against Nalbandian on clay were Rome 2006 where he barely won in third set tiebreak and in FO semi 2006 where Nalbandian was leading in a match before he got injured.While Federer did win both times,the matches were very close.
 
zagor said:
I think overall Nalbandian is a bad match-up for Nadal because he has the best two-hander on the tour,however Nadal is a different beast on clay.Beating Nadal on hardcourts (his worst surface by far) is not an indicator of how you will fare against him on clay.Two times I remember Fed played against Nalbandian on clay were Rome 2006 where he barely won in third set tiebreak and in FO semi 2006 where Nalbandian was leading in a match before he got injured.While Federer did win both times,the matches were very close.
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken Federer was turning that match around before Nalbandian pulled out. He was down 6-3, 3-0 and when Nalbandian pulled out it was 3-6, 6-3, 5-2.
 
ninman said:
If I'm not mistaken Federer was turning that match around before Nalbandian pulled out. He was down 6-3, 3-0 and when Nalbandian pulled out it was 3-6, 6-3, 5-2.
Click to expand...

Yes, but if you watched the match Nalbandian was visibly injured from the middle of the 2nd set. He didn´t retire all of a sudden.
 
Well one thing is noticeable. Nadal has improved outside of clay to a point where the meetings are more and more on other surfaces. So from seeing that I think Nadal has shown improvement. Not as much as he would like but better anyway.
 
Brouillons said:
Well one thing is noticeable. Nadal has improved outside of clay to a point where the meetings are more and more on other surfaces. So from seeing that I think Nadal has shown improvement. Not as much as he would like but better anyway.
Click to expand...

Actually they played less off clay this year than last year, last year they played 3 times off clay with Fed winning 2-1 and they played 3 times on clay Nadal winning 3-0. This year they played 2 times off clay Federer winning 2-0, and 3 times on clay, Nadal winning 2-1.
 
Given the Wimbledon final Nadal has improved. I also think despite being one round less in Flushing he was better this year but the knees were a hindrance. He also did well in Australia, better than in 2005. So yes hes gotten better.
 
Fast indoors is hardly indicator of Fed turning around the rivalry. Slow outdoor hardcourts and clay is where Fed will have to win to turn it around.
 
Problem

Nadal_Freak said:
Fast indoors is hardly indicator of Fed turning around the rivalry. Slow outdoor hardcourts and clay is where Fed will have to win to turn it around.
Click to expand...

The problem that I have with this argument is that it's like saying that Rafa's game is based on slow surfaces only and falls apart on faster surfaces. If Rafa is to really get the best ever status, his game has to work on all surfaces, otherwise history will record him as a one surface specialist. Is that what you are saying???

TennezSport :cool:
 
Nadal_Freak said:
Fast indoors is hardly indicator of Fed turning around the rivalry. Slow outdoor hardcourts and clay is where Fed will have to win to turn it around.
Click to expand...

So, not only does Federer have to beat Nadal 3 more to turn around the rivalry but has to do it on slow HC and/or clay? Or are you saying there is no rivalry outside of slow HC and clay?
 
TennezSport said:
The problem that I have with this argument is that it's like saying that Rafa's game is based on slow surfaces only and falls apart on faster surfaces. If Rafa is to really get the best ever status, his game has to work on all surfaces, otherwise history will record him as a one surface specialist. Is that what you are saying???

TennezSport :cool:
Click to expand...
Well I don't think Rafa will ever get to that point. His game is based on slow surfaces though he has had some success on fast surfaces. I don't know how much success Nadal needs on hard courts or grass to be considered more than a 1 surface specialist. Getting to the Wimbledon final twice helps I gotta say and losing to the GOAT.
 
Nadal_Freak said:
Well I don't think Rafa will ever get to that point. His game is based on slow surfaces though he has had some success on fast surfaces. I don't know how much success Nadal needs on hard courts or grass to be considered more than a 1 surface specialist. Getting to the Wimbledon final twice helps I gotta say and losing to the GOAT.
Click to expand...

Federer is not the GOAT. Laver, Borg, or Sampras are. Federer only enters the equation once he surpasses Sampras's numbers. Laver and Borg's biggest assets in their resume are slightly different.
 
Nadal is closing the gap on grass. If he hadnt called the trainer during the 5th set, he would have a great chance of winning it. The first few posts say that Nadal won the French Open while Federer had his slump, but lets not forget that Nadal was physically drained going into the Hamburg final, and on a larger scale, the whole of the hard court season.
 
Nadal_Freak said:
Fast indoors is hardly indicator of Fed turning around the rivalry. Slow outdoor hardcourts and clay is where Fed will have to win to turn it around.
Click to expand...

That statement seems a little ridiculous to me. Does that also mean that Nadal's wins on Clay don't count toward the rivalry because it's Federer's worst surface? I think any time these two meet, it's furthering the rivalry and displaying who is currently on top. Federer hasn't lost to Nadal on a non-Clay surface since February 2006 (Dubai), and he's won 5 of the last 7 overall. It seems to me that Federer is indeed turning this rivalry around. Remember, after the FO last year it was 6-1 Nadal. That has changed a lot in 18 months.
 
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