For all talks of Grass speed , let me tell you fast grass would not have seen the big 3 pulling magic tricks post 2015

[bnjkn]

The court Berettini is playing right now is so much faster though. Center court really is green clay.

 

[tonylg]

Wasn't Sampras 6'1"?
He is almost same height as Sampras. And I am not saying Novak is best grass court player of all time.

But that style of play definitely had to go. Aces all the day.

In his first round match, your hero served 25 aces and won 87% of points on first serve, while dropping a set.

 

[zagor]

I have only seen the highlights of isner and Sampras matches and 1 full set in the final. That style is never going to be great viewing for me personally however athletic it is. And probably majority of people agreed which is why it made them take huge steps.

Sampras and Isner don't belong in the same sentence for me.

As for the taste, I don't have to agree with the majority, I'm fine with that. I prefered grasscourt tennis in the 90s. Every major used to be more different in terms of conditions and playing styles successful on it.

Also it's generally accepted that low bounce is great for servebots. When you are playing tennis, I assume you also would hate dead low balls on serve.

It depends on a lot of factors but guys who are way over the average height for tennis like Isner, Anderson, Delpo etc. are gonna struggle with the low bounce, easy to understand why.

 

[nolefam_2024]

In his first round match, your hero served 25 aces and won 87% of points on first serve, while dropping a set.

Great for him.
He also wo 50% return pts.. nonsense comparison to a servebot.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Sampras and Isner don't belong in the same sentence for me.

As for the taste, I don't have to agree with the majority, I'm fine with that. I prefered grasscourt tennis in the 90s. Every major used to be more different in terms of conditions and playing styles successful on it.



It depends on a lot of factors but guys who are way over the average height for tennis like Isner, Anderson, Delpo etc. are gonna struggle with the low bounce, easy to understand why.

You don't have to agree with majority. But that's why the change is made.

 

[blablavla]

Great for him.
He also wo 50% return pts.. nonsense comparison to a servebot.

% of return pts is non-sense metrics when taken out of context
who was the opponent?
what was the quality of play on service displayed by opponent?

or do you perhaps think that serve-bots never dished bagels to opponents of lower skill-set level?

 

[nolefam_2024]

% of return pts is non-sense metrics when taken out of context
who was the opponent?
what was the quality of play on service displayed by opponent?

or do you perhaps think that serve-bots never dished bagels to opponents of lower skill-set level?

Ok
Forget everything.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Tennis has moved on from pure serve and volley.

 

[InsideOut900]

what about defense bot vs defense bot?
on all surfaces, 52 weeks per year?

Here is the problem, anyone who doesn't look to end a point within 5 shots is a defence bot nowadays. Laughable opinion.

 

[MadariKatu]

I don't know what magic tricks are those, I didn't see anyone putting them in complicated positions, other than fellow big3 members.

 

[blablavla]

Here is the problem, anyone who doesn't look to end a point within 5 shots is a defence bot nowadays. Laughable opinion.

do you know what Becker was teaching Nole while being in his coaching team?

why finish the point in 20 shots if you can finish it in 4
I guess Becker has a 'Laughable opinion' while you are a true expert, speaking the word of God, while unfortunately quite likely being only an arm-chair expert

and no, that's not how I define a defense bot
in my definition a defense bot is a player that avoids taking risk at all costs, rather preferring to run along the baseline until the opponents makes a mistake
please note that a mistake is not necessarily hitting into the net or out, it can be as well a relatively short and easy ball to be put away
please note as well that there is a difference between trying to hit winners on every shot and trying to force your opponent to make a mistake and playing an all court tennis

 

[tonylg]

Great for him.
He also wo 50% return pts.. nonsense comparison to a servebot.

You're the one saying that lots of aces is bad tennis and must be prevented.

Sampras served 22 aces in his last Wimbledon final win against Rafter. That was in a much longer match than the one ******** played a couple of days ago (serving 25 aces).

Again, who is the servebot?

 

[Russeljones]

This topic invites countless misconceptions.

 

[nolefam_2024]

You're the one saying that lots of aces is bad tennis and must be prevented.

Sampras served 22 aces in his last Wimbledon final win against Rafter. That was in a much longer match than the one ******** played a couple of days ago.

Again, who is the servebot?

Novak is better server than pete now? Great for him. He has great ground game as well so it's great.

I haven't dissed Pete anywhere. He is great athletic player. Ivanesevic etc can be side show, not finalist all the time though. In current crop I like isner because he maximizes his talent. Ofcourse he is way taller than Goran but he is to today what Goran was to 90s. So I don't mind servebots. Unless they are in every Wimbledon final.

 

[tonylg]

Novak is better server than pete now? Great for him. He has great ground game as well so it's great.

I haven't dissed Pete anywhere. He is great athletic player. Ivanesevic etc can be side show, not finalist all the time though. In current crop I like isner because he maximizes his talent. Ofcourse he is way taller than Goran but he is to today what Goran was to 90s. So I don't mind servebots. Unless they are in every Wimbledon final.

You do realise that John Isner has only made it into the second week of Wimbledon once. In fact that was the only time he's ever progressed past the 3rd round.

Meanwhile bunters like Goffin, Pella, Agut and Nishikori are going deep, you're all still rocking in your chairs repeating "Servebots are bad" over and over.

 

[nolefam_2024]

You do realise that John Isner has only made it into the second week of Wimbledon once. In fact that was the only time he's ever progressed past the 3rd round.

Meanwhile bunters like Goffin, Pella, Agut and Nishikori are going deep, you're all still rocking in your chairs repeating "Servebots are bad" over and over.

Nishikori hasn't even made a quarters. And servebots are bad. Nothing wrong in saying it again and again.

 

[tonylg]

Nishikori hasn't even made a quarters. And servebots are bad. Nothing wrong in saying it again and again.

Those players were all literally in the last set of quarters played.

And your hero served 25 aces in his last match.

How many times can you be completely false and just keep plugging away with the same nonsense?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Those players were all literally in the last set of quarters played.

And your hero served 25 aces in his last match.

How many times can you be completely false and just keep plugging away with the same nonsense?

What nonsense?

If Nishikori made a qf then that's the only qf he made. What is wrong in making a qf? So many worse players would have made it.

On the other hand being a servebot is boring. You can call Novak servebot people know it's not true. So stop trying to rile people up.

Servebot tennis isn't best for tennis.

 

[blablavla]

What nonsense?

If Nishikori made a qf then that's the only qf he made. What is wrong in making a qf? So many worse players would have made it.

On the other hand being a servebot is boring. You can call Novak servebot people know it's not true. So stop trying to rile people up.

Servebot tennis isn't best for tennis.

right, 52 weeks of defense-botting, irrespective of the surface is what tennis needs

 

[InsideOut900]

do you know what Becker was teaching Nole while being in his coaching team?

why finish the point in 20 shots if you can finish it in 4
I guess Becker has a 'Laughable opinion' while you are a true expert, speaking the word of God, while unfortunately quite likely being only an arm-chair expert

and no, that's not how I define a defense bot
in my definition a defense bot is a player that avoids taking risk at all costs, rather preferring to run along the baseline until the opponents makes a mistake
please note that a mistake is not necessarily hitting into the net or out, it can be as well a relatively short and easy ball to be put away
please note as well that there is a difference between trying to hit winners on every shot and trying to force your opponent to make a mistake and playing an all court tennis

First, Becker taught Djokovic how to use his serve and moderate aggression to maximize efficiency.

Djokovic was a more offensive minded player in 2011-2013, taking bigger cuts at the ball more often. And he was even more offensive minded during 2007-2010.

That's leads me to my second point, ever wondered why players choose to become so called "defensive bots"? That strictly because it's efficient. When Djokovic or Nadal are in the zone they play anything but defensive tennis. But now what happens when they are in average form, not feeling their shots? They resort to grinding, because that's how they maximize their chances of winning.

Now to extrapolate to guys like Medvedev, Zverev or Tsitsipas. They aren't defensively minded players by nature, but their standard game is at the same level as Djokovic's or Nadal's mediocre level (B- or C+ level). Since they lack proper footwork, more often then not they can never get maximum efficiency out of their offensive game, therefore they just resort to grinding behind the baseline and use their serve as a safety net. Godforbid we talk about their net transition, I think only Zverev knows a bit about the netgame, courtasy of his brother Misha being a full time serve and volley player. And Tsitsipas can pull of the occasional volley.

This leads me to my final point, current court speed is not an issue, but the players are, as they lack the proper talent.

Counter-punchers like Hewitt, Murray, who are defensive minded by style of play are actually better on the faster courts for instance. Murray is obviously good on slow HC, but he was profficient on fast HC for a good chunk of his career.
Then there is Djokovic, who you may consider a "defensive bot", yet he prefers slow-medium or medium paced courts over slow HC courts or clay.

I am going to talk more about the court speed in a different thread I am going to make soon.

 

[nolefam_2024]

right, 52 weeks of defense-botting, irrespective of the surface is what tennis needs

Tennis should have variety but not the 90s grass especially with the giant height next gen.

 

[tonylg]

right, 52 weeks of defense-botting, irrespective of the surface is what tennis needs

It's what tennis has.

 

[blablavla]

First, Becker thought Djokovic how to use his serve and moderate aggression to maximize efficiency.

Djokovic was a more offensive minded player in 2011-2013, taking bigger cuts at the ball more often. And he was even more offensive minded during 2007-2010.

That's leads me to my second point, ever wondered why players choose to become so called "defensive bots"? That strictly because it's efficient. When Djokovic or Nadal are in the zone they play anything but defensive tennis. But now what happens when they are in average form, not feeling their shots? They resort to grinding, because that's how they maximize their chances of winning.

Now to extrapolate to guys like Medvedev, Zverev or Tsitsipas. They aren't defensively minded players by nature, but their standard game is at the same level as Djokovic's or Nadal's mediocre level (B- or C+ level). Since they lack proper footwork, more often then not they can never get maximum efficiency out of their offensive game, therefore they just resort to grinding behind the baseline and use their serve as a safety net. Godforbid we talk about their net transition, I think only Zverev knows a bit about the netgame, courtasy of his brother Misha being a full time serve and volley player. And Tsitsipas can pull of the occasional volley.

This leads me to my final point, current court speed is not an issue, but the players are, as they lack the proper talent.

Counter-punchers like Hewitt, Murray, who are defensive minded by style of play are actually better on the faster courts for instance.

I am going to talk more about the court speed in a different thread I am going to make soon.

some good points, but overall no

what you are missing here:
- poly strings, which allow crazy spin, allowing to pass the player at the net
- rackets with bigger and bigger head size
- stiffer and stiffer rackets
- updates to the balls
- higher bouncing surfaces

keep in mind that tennis is a game of thin margins
so when ATP is changing so many variables, or closes their both eyes to introduction of poly strings for example, this hugely shifts the balance from 'serve-bots' to 'defense-bots'
Novak as a smart player, and with a team of smart coaches made good use of this
just like Nadal and Federer and Murray

but the discussion here was about something else

P.S.
I think Becker didn't 'thought' but rather 'taught'

 

[tonylg]

Tennis should have variety but not the 90s grass especially with the giant height next gen.

You just like saying tennis should have variety, the prospect of it becoming reality obviously terrifies you.

 

[nolefam_2024]

You just like saying tennis should have variety, the prospect of it becoming reality obviously terrifies you.

This is true. Probably.
But I am not blind Djokovic fan.

I have watched tennis only in last decade and the old 90s grass matches are not my cup of tea.

 

[Terry Tibbs]

Its not a surprise then that big hitting server Kyrios has complained about the slow courts. Perhaps Federer's best chance of another slam with his current reaction and movement ability is actually at the FO were the courts are in thoery the slowest.

 

[tonylg]

This is true. Probably.
But I am not blind Djokovic fan.

I have watched tennis only in last decade and the old 90s grass matches are not my cup of tea.

Ah ha.

 

[InsideOut900]

but the discussion here was about something else

What's the discussion here?

and no, that's not how I define a defense bot
in my definition a defense bot is a player that avoids taking risk at all costs, rather preferring to run along the baseline until the opponents makes a mistake
please note that a mistake is not necessarily hitting into the net or out, it can be as well a relatively short and easy ball to be put away
please note as well that there is a difference between trying to hit winners on every shot and trying to force your opponent to make a mistake and playing an all court tennis

I simply addressed this part.
I don't much care about the death of extreme offence (a.k.a serve and volley), I am talking about the transitioning from slightly faster court during 2003-2010 to a slower tour during 2011-2016.

We simply can't ban poly and go back in time, that's not how sport works. And for the same reasons you mentioned, S&V isn't viable within this era. Tough luck, but it is what is it.
You cannot bring back category 5 courts either, cuz it would be a mess to try an return serve against a serve with poly strings.

What poly can offer in the offensive tennis spectrum is either the posibility of offensive baselining or the possibility of all court tennis (a.k.a a mix of baseline and net charging).

The way this plays out depends on two factors:

1) Court speed
2) Players natural ability to play offensive tennis

Court speed is the incentive to play offensive tennis and serve well, because it rewards it.
As of 2017-present, courts are more than fine speed-wise.

That leaves us to talk about players and so I don't repeat myself, they simply aren't good enough to play offensive tennis on faster courts, so faster courts only help their serving.