Heavier racquets more prone to causing injury?

[TonyB]

Another hypothetical question: do heavier racquets lead to more injuries?

That is, do people try to "overswing" with heavier racquets and injure muscles or tendons as a result?

Wouldn't it seem more likely that people who "move up to" heavier racquets would tend to try to accelerate the racquet beyond their physical ability to do so?


The reason I ask is that I have been using a 12.0 oz. racquet for the past 6 months, but have recently switched to a 12.5 oz. racquet and have noticed that I'm apparently developing some tears in my anterior rotator cuff muscles/tendons. Sort of behind the shoulder, under the arm. I never had any problems before, but it seems like I'm having to give a little extra oomph to pull the heavier racquet around quickly enough to match my technique and maintain my timing.

I'm not saying that's what caused my injury, but I'm trying to think of possible contributors.

 

[dave333]

heavier weights do make it more difficult to serve, which uses the shoulder a lot more. So it is possible

 

[West Coast Ace]

Another hypothetical question: do heavier racquets lead to more injuries?

That is, do people try to "overswing" with heavier racquets and injure muscles or tendons as a result?

Wouldn't it seem more likely that people who "move up to" heavier racquets would tend to try to accelerate the racquet beyond their physical ability to do so?


The reason I ask is that I have been using a 12.0 oz. racquet for the past 6 months, but have recently switched to a 12.5 oz. racquet and have noticed that I'm apparently developing some tears in my anterior rotator cuff muscles/tendons. Sort of behind the shoulder, under the arm. I never had any problems before, but it seems like I'm having to give a little extra oomph to pull the heavier racquet around quickly enough to match my technique and maintain my timing.

I'm not saying that's what caused my injury, but I'm trying to think of possible contributors.

I would think from my mechanical engineering days, that the extra weight would absorb some of the vibration. My question would be: is your new racket stiffer? Because the stiffness will lead to more vibration going into your arm, which I believe would be harder on the joints.

I would think 'overswinging' would come from lighter rackets - they're so light that people just go nuts trying to emulate the pros.

Your self-diagnosis of a tear is premature - could be many things - impingment, tendonitis, etc... And you don't mention your age, fitness level, etc... Maybe you just need to do some light weight training for the shoulders.

 

[TonyB]

Well, being involved in sports for the past 30 years, I definitely can tell the difference between joint pain, muscle pain, and more serious injuries such as tears and tendinitis. At this time, I can't lift my arm above my waist behind my back. And I can't put any force whatsoever in the internal rotational direction on my arm when I put my right hand over my left shoulder without a significant amount of sharp pain.

At this point, I can't even swing my arm, let alone swinging a racquet. I'm just trying to figure out if I should drop way down in racquet weight when (or if) I am able to return to the game.

 

[AAAA]

do heavier racquets lead to more injuries?

Only if it is too heavy for YOU.

 

[drakulie]

Usually these type of injuries occur from bad mechanics--not half an ounce of weight.

 

[movdqa]

Sounds like impingement. Though I haven't had a look at my rotator cuff book in several weeks.

What is the swingweight of the two racquets?

I've found that there is a weight that is too much and that the limiting stroke is the serve. Most of the other strokes can use
large muscles but the serve uses more force and puts more stress on the arm as you can't use anything else to launch it up there with respect to the arm unfolding.

Our son was using a 16 ounce racquet, 28 points HL and I
gave him a 16.3 ounce 24 points HL today and he said that
he likeed the heavier racquet as he didn't have to work as
hard to hit the ball. With a heavier racquet, you can use your
large muscles to start the racquet moving and apply less
force/pressure as you go through the stroke.

 

[NoBadMojo]

Another hypothetical question: do heavier racquets lead to more injuries?

That is, do people try to "overswing" with heavier racquets and injure muscles or tendons as a result?

Wouldn't it seem more likely that people who "move up to" heavier racquets would tend to try to accelerate the racquet beyond their physical ability to do so?


The reason I ask is that I have been using a 12.0 oz. racquet for the past 6 months, but have recently switched to a 12.5 oz. racquet and have noticed that I'm apparently developing some tears in my anterior rotator cuff muscles/tendons. Sort of behind the shoulder, under the arm. I never had any problems before, but it seems like I'm having to give a little extra oomph to pull the heavier racquet around quickly enough to match my technique and maintain my timing.

I'm not saying that's what caused my injury, but I'm trying to think of possible contributors.

Yes, what you say is VERY likely. People should use the heaviest frame they can comfortably handle and something with a sweetspot they can reliably hit. If in moving to a heavier frame, you also chose a smaller headed one you could be getting the double whammy caused by missing the sweetspot and forcing the frame to work...is this what you felt you were doing?
Shoulder injuries are often caused by people forcing a frame too demanding for them to work, especially on the serve.
A racquet too heavy is as responsible for injuries as choosing one too light. People should choose the right swingweight and sweetspot size for their abilities..if they dont know what that is, it is a good idea to seek out a quality teaching pro who in one session woud be able to pin that down for you along with seeing if there is something mechanically you are doing that might cause injury.
Remember that not all stiff frames are uncomfortable. If you know your swingweight, the stiffness part often takes care of itself

 

[heycal]

People should choose the right swingweight and sweetspot size for their abilities..

As a general guideline, what do you think is the best headsize range for the typical 3.5ish level player? What is too small, or too large, for the average recreational player in your opinion?

 

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

Well, being involved in sports for the past 30 years, I definitely can tell the difference between joint pain, muscle pain, and more serious injuries such as tears and tendinitis. At this time, I can't lift my arm above my waist behind my back. And I can't put any force whatsoever in the internal rotational direction on my arm when I put my right hand over my left shoulder without a significant amount of sharp pain.

At this point, I can't even swing my arm, let alone swinging a racquet. I'm just trying to figure out if I should drop way down in racquet weight when (or if) I am able to return to the game.

That sucks tonyB. The fastest way to get playing again imo will be to have surgery. It can take a heck of a long time to heal or it may never heal completely depending how serious. Surgery sucks but the thought is very tempting if you want to play tennis again as fast and competitive as possible,
Pain free.

 

[heycal]

At this point, I can't even swing my arm, let alone swinging a racquet. I'm just trying to figure out if I should drop way down in racquet weight when (or if) I am able to return to the game.

I'm not an expert, but I would guess it was the change/increase in weight, not the weight itself, that contributed to the problem. I would think your shoulder could get used to swinging a 12.5 racket without injury, as generations of players have before you, but perhaps you just need to ease into the higher weight.

That sucks tonyB. The fastest way to get playing again imo will be to have surgery. It can take a heck of a long time to heal or it may never heal completely depending how serious. Surgery sucks but the thought is very tempting if you want to play tennis again as fast and competitive as possible,

Jeez, Dr. Holygrail. Aren't we being a bit quick with the knife here?

Sounds like impingement. Though I haven't had a look at my rotator cuff book in several weeks.

This sounds like it's a common and necessary to have a rotator cuff book on hand and to consult it regularly. Is that what it's come to in our old age?

Oh, for the days of yesteryear when "rotator cuff" was a foreign term that had something to do with professional baseball pitchers but not us...

 

[haerdalis]

Shoulder pain such as you describe is often related to serving with either a racquet that is too heavy or heavy balls. Playing outdoors in damp conditions or on grass will lead to the balls being heavy and is hard on the shoulder.

 

[movdqa]

This sounds like it's a common and necessary to have a rotator cuff book on hand and to consult it regularly. Is that what it's come to in our old age?

I've never had shoulder problems. But my wife has had them along with some folks at work. I bought the book for here as she injured it in an aerobics class
many years ago.

I went from 12 ounces to over 16 on my Dunlops and didn't have an shoulder
problems. So increasing weight on its own doesn't necessarily cause shoulder
problems. I'm playing with a new racquet around 12 ounces but it hits with
much more power than my one-pounders and is a super-flexible too.

We'll see how the new racquet goes.

 

[emerckx53]

Some info from Racquet Research....

8. Shoulder Pull is the force (in the metric unit of Newtons, a Newton being about a quarter of a pound) exerted by the shoulder muscles in opposing the centrifugal force acting on the racquet as it moves around the shoulder in the swing resulting from the player's Work (see formula for Shoulder Pull, see derivation of formula for Shoulder Pull). This opposing force is called a "centripetal" force because it acts toward the axis of rotation (here the shoulder socket); Shoulder Pull is equal and opposite to the centrifugal force while the racquet is getting up to speed for the impact, and reaches its maximum the instant before impact, which is where we measure it. After impact, this centripetal force continues, but the offsetting centrifugal force is reduced because the racquet has slowed down. The excess centripetal force becomes a radial compressive force known as Shoulder Crunch.

The formula for centripetal force is Mv2/R (where M is racquet mass in kilograms, v is the linear velocity of the mass center, in meters/second, and R is the distance, in meters, from the racquet mass center to the axis of rotation, here the shoulder). Note that, in rotation, the mass center linear velocity (v) decreases as the balance gets more head-light, so head-light balance can mean low Shoulder Pull, even if the racquet is heavy. The variable v is squared in the formula for centripetal force, so a light racquet having a head-heavy balance may still have a large Shoulder Pull, despite its light weight, due to its distant mass center and consequent high mass center velocity in rotation. That's bad. See the Shoulder Pull Rankings for the 2002 survey of 167 racquets.

9. Shoulder Crunch is the change in the centrifugal force acting on the racquet, a change that occurs due to the impact slowing the racquet down, thus creating a sudden excess in centripetal force at the shoulder. Before, the centripetal force and centrifugal force were in equilibrium, but suddenly there is an excess centripetal force. This is effectively a muscle spasm in the shoulder muscles. The formula for finding Shoulder Crunch derives from Shock (see derivation of formula for Shoulder Crunch).

This excess centripetal force is a radial compressive force known as Shoulder Crunch, and is measured in units of force (Newtons in the metric system, pounds in the English system, 1 Newton = 0.225 lb.). Once the Shock is known, Shoulder Crunch follows by a simple calculation: Shoulder Crunch = (2/R)(Shock) (where R = distance of the racquet's mass center from the axis of reference, here the shoulder). See the derivation. R will be equal to the distance from the player's hand to his shoulder (0.61 m) plus the distance from the hand to the balance point of the racquet (0.01*r). Please note that it is only the Shoulder Crunch due to the racquet that is calculated here -- there is also mass in the arm swinging the racquet, and it slows down too, but for purposes of racquet comparisons we assume that it is the same arm for every racquet, as if one player were trying out all of them. Shoulder Crunch Rankings for the 2002 survey of 167 racquets.

 

[superstition]

I've personally found that a head-heavy balance hurts my elbow, especially in a racquet that's stiff and has stiff string. But, no amount of weight in a head light racquet seems to bother me. I've never had shoulder pain.

 

[fuzz nation]

Wow Tony, sorry about that shoulder. I'd say get it diagnosed promptly so that you can get on the mend ASAP and avoid hurting it further.

It makes sense to me that you'd be at risk of an injury when you first start using a heavier racquet because you're trying to apply the timing of your muscle memory to a heavier load. The somewhat heavier frame can do more work for you, but the synchronization in the serving motion needs to adjust to stay smooth and efficient. I've taken up with pretty heavy racquets and I've learned to smooth out my motion by getting farther through it before my toss. That way I'm right on the brink of an unrushed release through the ball as soon as my toss is up there in the strike zone.

Heavy frames haven't bothered me, but the unexpected side of this issue caught up to me when I sampled lighter racquets. I got twinges in my arm where tennis elbow would typically set in and I also got a nasty tweak in my shoulder from serving, but nothing like what you're dealing with. Seems that a significant change in racquet weight, either up or down, requires a precautionary breaking-in before going full speed.

Hey get well soon and keep on a-postin'.

 

[federmann]

Usually these type of injuries occur from bad mechanics--not half an ounce of weight.

you know that tommy haas had a torn tendon in his shoulder?
i guess you wouldn't go that far to say that he has bad mechanics?!

 

[tennis_hand]

I won't say it will definitely cause injury. but if it is beyond what you can handle, even if it does not cause injury, it still wears you out and you are subsequently more prone to injury if you are very tired.

 

[dman72]

I think the danger is in switching to heavy racquets without any buildup, and it is elevated with those who use violent and/or wristy swings, due to learning to play with super light racquets. I learned to play with aluminum racquets, and my first graphite racquet was pretty heavy. I always felt more uncomfortable with super-light graphite racquets, and played very poorly trying to use them over the last few years. The worst elbow pain I ever had was when I hit with a borrowed wilson hyper sledge driver whatever 2.0 after I broke a string playing. I was playing a heavy hitter, and his spin and pace+attempted blocked shot=major shock to the arm.

Now, I'm using a heavily leaded LM rad os, and I have no problems..it feels right. However, if you go from serving with a 9.9 ounce racquet to a 13 oz and don't take it easy, you WILL hurt your shoulder.

 

[Alafter]

Your body should tell you how heavy you want that swinging-cat racquet? I dont blame some crazy ppl for using 16 oz racquets, and i also think those 9 oz people are doing just fine. Gotta have what you are ok with, right?

 

[movdqa]

Your body should tell you how heavy you want that swinging-cat racquet? I dont blame some crazy ppl for using 16 oz racquets, and i also think those 9 oz people are doing just fine. Gotta have what you are ok with, right?

I resemble that remark.

16 ounces really isn't that heavy.

 

[drakulie]

you know that tommy haas had a torn tendon in his shoulder?
i guess you wouldn't go that far to say that he has bad mechanics?!

I said usually these type of injuries are due to bad mechanics.

In addition, are you implying Haas' inury was due to a "demanding" racquet? LOL

 

[Sagittar]

I resemble that remark.

16 ounces really isn't that heavy.

I think it is , in fact it's more than heavy it could be restraining to 99.9% of current players ..

 

[Craig Sheppard]

Yes, what you say is VERY likely. People should use the heaviest frame they can comfortably handle and something with a sweetspot they can reliably hit. If in moving to a heavier frame, you also chose a smaller headed one you could be getting the double whammy caused by missing the sweetspot and forcing the frame to work...is this what you felt you were doing?
Shoulder injuries are often caused by people forcing a frame too demanding for them to work, especially on the serve.
A racquet too heavy is as responsible for injuries as choosing one too light. People should choose the right swingweight and sweetspot size for their abilities..if they dont know what that is, it is a good idea to seek out a quality teaching pro who in one session woud be able to pin that down for you along with seeing if there is something mechanically you are doing that might cause injury.
Remember that not all stiff frames are uncomfortable. If you know your swingweight, the stiffness part often takes care of itself

Hey Mojo, welcome back.... I agree w/ what you say about using a racquet too heavy. I can certainly feel that in my shoulder.

My question though is--if you took 2 of the same 12 oz racquet, 1 being 5 pts HL and the other being 5 pts HH, do you think the HH version would cause more pressure on the user? I'm just reasoning that b/c more of the mass is further away from the hand, you'd get more torque on your wrist & shoulder.

Do you think this is true or could be true, or would it not matter (i.e., 12 oz is 12 oz no matter how it's distributed)?

 

[movdqa]

I think it is , in fact it's more than heavy it could be restraining to 99.9% of current players ..

I'm not that strong and I've been using 16.3/16.4 for half a year. I'm trying
a new racquet at 12.1 ounces as it is a lot more flexible and I like flexible.

 

[movdqa]

Hey Mojo, welcome back.... I agree w/ what you say about using a racquet too heavy. I can certainly feel that in my shoulder.

My question though is--if you took 2 of the same 12 oz racquet, 1 being 5 pts HL and the other being 5 pts HH, do you think the HH version would cause more pressure on the user? I'm just reasoning that b/c more of the mass is further away from the hand, you'd get more torque on your wrist & shoulder.

Do you think this is true or could be true, or would it not matter (i.e., 12 oz is 12 oz no matter how it's distributed)?

Where you put the weight makes a huge difference.

 

[NoBadMojo]

Hey Mojo, welcome back.... I agree w/ what you say about using a racquet too heavy. I can certainly feel that in my shoulder.

My question though is--if you took 2 of the same 12 oz racquet, 1 being 5 pts HL and the other being 5 pts HH, do you think the HH version would cause more pressure on the user? I'm just reasoning that b/c more of the mass is further away from the hand, you'd get more torque on your wrist & shoulder.

Do you think this is true or could be true, or would it not matter (i.e., 12 oz is 12 oz no matter how it's distributed)?

thankyou Craig. yes, i think you can build a case for what you say, and i would almost surely go with the headlight to get a good mix of power, comfort , and control. I try not to recommend head heavy frames unless necesssary. same thing for longer light static weight frames especially if they have a lot of mass in the head. It depends upon if someone can swing the racquet fast enough to cause damage. For example, many club females can use a well made head heavy stiff frame with no problem because they really dont generate much racquet head speed and they need the help. A heavy racquet would prob destroy them in comparison, not to mention make it much tuffer for them to play half decent.
it's important also to remember that using too heavy, missing the sweetspot a lot, etc can be very accumulative as it is with poly strings, and what people are doing now w. too much weight and such can catch up to them and bite them in their butts, 2,3, 10 years down the road.

look at all the TE, GE, wrist, and shoulder sufferers just within this forum..i can promise you lots of these people are using lead, using heavy frames, small sweetspots, poly, etc and lots of these people are really too young to have repetitive use injuries like this.

 

[federmann]

I said usually these type of injuries are due to bad mechanics.

In addition, are you implying Haas' inury was due to a "demanding" racquet? LOL

i knew that you were going to point at your "usually"!

no, i didn't. i didn't even refer to the cause of such injuries and if heavy racquets were to blame.
but as far as i know, such injuries are due to long-term stress on the shoulder.

 

[Dr. Van Nostrand]

Interesting topic. I have moved from a headlight frame weighing about 12.2ounces to a head light frame (PS Stretch 6.1) that weighs 13.4 ounces and I would have to say the heavier racquet has a much better overall feel. When I was playing with the lighter frame I did have some shoulder discomfort but nothing that stopped me from playing. Perhaps the fact that my current 13.4 ounce frame is more flexible than the lighter 12.2 ounce frame is a factor is factor about why I do not have any arm/shoulder discomfort. Overall I am pleased using my 13.4 ounce PS and I have concluded that racquet flex is a big factor in how comfortable a racquet plays.

 

[bad_call]

...Shoulder injuries are often caused by people forcing a frame too demanding for them to work, especially on the serve.
A racquet too heavy is as responsible for injuries as choosing one too light....

IMO NBMJ hit an ace with this one.

 

[jackson vile]

Another hypothetical question: do heavier racquets lead to more injuries?

That is, do people try to "overswing" with heavier racquets and injure muscles or tendons as a result?

Wouldn't it seem more likely that people who "move up to" heavier racquets would tend to try to accelerate the racquet beyond their physical ability to do so?


The reason I ask is that I have been using a 12.0 oz. racquet for the past 6 months, but have recently switched to a 12.5 oz. racquet and have noticed that I'm apparently developing some tears in my anterior rotator cuff muscles/tendons. Sort of behind the shoulder, under the arm. I never had any problems before, but it seems like I'm having to give a little extra oomph to pull the heavier racquet around quickly enough to match my technique and maintain my timing.

I'm not saying that's what caused my injury, but I'm trying to think of possible contributors.

Yes that is why in the woden era there were so many problems....

Oh wait that was not until the modern super light graphite era LOL

 

[bluegrasser]

thankyou Craig. yes, i think you can build a case for what you say, and i would almost surely go with the headlight to get a good mix of power, comfort , and control. I try not to recommend head heavy frames unless necesssary. same thing for longer light static weight frames especially if they have a lot of mass in the head. It depends upon if someone can swing the racquet fast enough to cause damage. For example, many club females can use a well made head heavy stiff frame with no problem because they really dont generate much racquet head speed and they need the help. A heavy racquet would prob destroy them in comparison, not to mention make it much tuffer for them to play half decent.
it's important also to remember that using too heavy, missing the sweetspot a lot, etc can be very accumulative as it is with poly strings, and what people are doing now w. too much weight and such can catch up to them and bite them in their butts, 2,3, 10 years down the road.

look at all the TE, GE, wrist, and shoulder sufferers just within this forum..i can promise you lots of these people are using lead, using heavy frames, small sweetspots, poly, etc and lots of these people are really too young to have repetitive use injuries like this.

How do *You* determine the right swingspeed for your students, what are your guidelines, does age always come into the equation ? I know I'd give you fits - middle age, out of shape, long swing on the (eastern) forehand, more compact on the bkhnd. I'm now playing with the Pestige mp fxp & lm, which I like but can't get that good whipping motion for passing shots, so I try a 300 A Dunlop and I'm so far in front of the ball and i can't find the sweetspot, maybe a different string would help.
I played with the 03 red that had a sw I liked but felt to stiff, I just can't find a stick that works 100%.

 

[haerdalis]

Yes that is why in the woden era there were so many problems....

Oh wait that was not until the modern super light graphite era LOL

People had smooth swings back then, most people anyway.

 

[NoBadMojo]

How do *You* determine the right swingspeed for your students, what are your guidelines, does age always come into the equation ? I know I'd give you fits - middle age, out of shape, long swing on the (eastern) forehand, more compact on the bkhnd. I'm now playing with the Pestige mp fxp & lm, which I like but can't get that good whipping motion for passing shots, so I try a 300 A Dunlop and I'm so far in front of the ball and i can't find the sweetspot, maybe a different string would help.
I played with the 03 red that had a sw I liked but felt to stiff, I just can't find a stick that works 100%.

lots of forum posters would drive me nuts if i gave them lessons . i dont determine the right swingspeed for them..i adjust and work with what their natural swingspeeds are given whatever technique they posess. many guys tend to force their frames to work rather than allow them to work, or otherwsie dont do the work from the feet up to give them a chance for success..tennis, like most all sports is played from the feet up.

 

[jackson vile]

People had smooth swings back then, most people anyway.

Try again

 

[emerckx53]

I resemble that remark.

16 ounces really isn't that heavy.

Compared to what? a bowling ball? Granted, if it works for you fine but in no way shape or form is that weight anywhere close to normal.....since it is heavier than 95% of the ATP players racquets.....If you can wield it more power to you....