How many GS titles would Djokovic have won in Feds so called 'weak' era if he were born in 81?

How many GS titles would '81 born Nole have won by the end of 2007?

  • 0-4

    Votes: 10 16.4%
  • 5-8

    Votes: 12 19.7%
  • 9-12

    Votes: 13 21.3%
  • 13+

    Votes: 26 42.6%

  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Possible. We will never had a proof of which is true, but it's one of them:
1) Peak Nole clearly > Peak Federer on clay, so Nadal was as dominant in 2005-07 as in 2012-14 is caused by the opponent, but he was better in 2012-14. So the opponent not clearly dominated in 2012-14 could beat 2005-07 Rafa.
2) Nadal was on a steady level, and Peak Nole almost = Peak Federer on clay. In this case Nole had probably lost to 2005-07 Rafa.

I'm for the first one. Because I think it's reasonable a player improve from 19-21 to 26-28 and Nadal improved on non-clay surfaces too in these years.
IMO he hadn't an early peak only on clay. He is only so good on clay that he can win earlier when he was not yet peak, but his trajectory was linear among surfaces(Maybe grass before HC).
Debatable, obviously.
An example is that, on the other hand, Federer-Djokovic 2011 is a clue for option 2. But a match is not a great sample, and I feel more reasonable to assume a "standard" career trajectory(26-28 > 19-21) for a player and consider that an outlier.
Honestly, I think Nadal's level on clay was pretty much the same for most of 2005-2014. I can't find very many noticeable differences in raw level, though as you said he faced tougher competition against Djokovic than Federer. Tougher competition, however, is not always conducive to good level. He had the godly movement from 2005-2008 and the more impressive shotmaking from 2010-2014. The two sort of cancel each other out, imo. Not much of a difference at all, except for perhaps his 2009, 2011, and 2014 versions being a bit worse than the rest of the lot.

I'd also contest the bolded. Nadal had a bit of an early grass peak as well. He made the final in 2006 and played about as well as he did in 2011 (definitely better in the middle two sets) and his 2007 and 2008 Wimbledon runs need no introduction. I'd say Nadal peaked earlier on grass, later on hard, and had both early and late peaks for clay. It's just that he's that good on the surface.

While I think Nadal would definitely struggle more against Djokovic, suggesting that any version of Djokovic would be the favorite over any version of Nadal at RG from 2005-2008 is a bit of an outlandish claim, at least for me. People were already suggesting that Nadal was going to be the best on clay by 2007, even despite his lack of titles compared to Borg at the time. It was certainly because of his level.

For me, Nadal's RG ranking from those years probably goes like this:

2008
2007
2012 (can be swapped with 2007)
2010
2005
2013
2006
gap
2014
2011
gap
2009
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Nole was an early bloomer.
Nole used to retire from every match when he was young.

The answer is 0 Slams due to as of yet undiagnosed gluten intolerance.

I even distinctly remember Cahill and Gilbert using our joke on MTF about who would be the first to achieve the career retirement Slam. Djokovic or Tipsaravic
 

vex

Legend
Who knows. I don’t think he’d do better than Fed did, that’s for sure. It depends on which version of Novak you drop into 2004. If you’re putting 2011 Novak there than yah he’s moping up, can’t see him losing to any of those stiffs on hard court. No version of Hewitt or Nalbandian is beating peak Djokovic anywhere. 2005 Agassi is not competing with peak Djokovic.
I can see the argument that he’d lose a Wimby or two to Andy that Fed didn’t. Andy was pretty great at Wimby. Fed’s record over Andy on grass is legit and why Fed is the grass GOAT hands down. But Djokovic would also probably have stolen 2x RGs in span of 2001-2007.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
It depends though. There were more BO5 finals in the masters and Novak would have to defeat Claydal in BO5 matches on a regular basis. Can't see him achieve it.

I know it's match-ups and all, but 2005-2006 Nadal was a clay machine. The guy just never got tired.

Young Nadal was a clay machine but there were still matches that Fed could have done better and Novak might have. 2006 FO Fed's BH was shanktastic for middle of the match and 2007 FO when he was 1/17 BPs and missed every time he pulled the trigger off the FH side on the big point.

Of course, Novak has had his fair share of FO blunders as well so no guarantee he would have done better but his match-up on clay against a younger Nadal who was faster but less potent on the offense was something I would have liked to see. Also, unlike Fed he would have smoked young Nadal on HC, doubt he'd struggle with him in Miami and Dubai.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Young Nadal was a clay machine but there were still matches that Fed could have done better and Novak might have. 2006 FO Fed's BH was shanktastic for middle of the match and 2007 FO when he was 1/17 BPs and missed every time he pulled the trigger off the FH side on the big point.

Of course, Novak has had his fair share of FO blunders as well so no guarantee he would have done better but his match-up on clay against a younger Nadal who was faster but less potent on the offense was something I would have liked to see. Also, unlike Fed he would have smoked young Nadal on HC, doubt he'd struggle with him in Miami and Dubai.
On HC, Djokovic would own. On clay less do. It's still BO5 on clay we're talking about and Djoko hasn't proven to be reliable in this format.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Try to make a comparison match by match(Ex. 2010 Nole had a bad day in RG QF, losing to Melzer, Fed would had played Nalbandian here, no way Nole could win). I'm a bit more bullish than you against Baby Rafa, and less earlier in his career, probably because it happens he had bad days. From 2011-2013 he, basically, hadn't. Only great opposition. Excluding maybe 2013 WIM Final, against great opposition too, but he could had, at leat, play a 5 setter. Overall, we had similar results.

This is an interesting way to do the analysis, but I don't think that literally plugging Djokovic into every Federer slot makes sense, and I also don't think we can ignore the impact of the change(s) on other players. For example, like me, you have Djokovic losing at Wimbledon 2003. Presumably, like me, you also have Roddick winning the title (although I could see a case for Philippoussis). Then, while I have Roddick winning the 2003 U.S. Open, you have Djokovic winning, presumably w/Djokovic taking out Roddick in the SF (his worst match of the tournament).

But, in our alternate reality, at the 2003 U.S. Open, the rankings and draw are completely different. And you have Djokovic having to take down a Roddick who has presumably won Wimbledon, Canada, and Cincinnati. That would be a all order.
 

FedeRadi

Rookie
Honestly, I think Nadal's level on clay was pretty much the same for most of 2005-2014. I can't find very many noticeable differences in raw level, though as you said he faced tougher competition against Djokovic than Federer. Tougher competition, however, is not always conducive to good level. He had the godly movement from 2005-2008 and the more impressive shotmaking from 2010-2014. The two sort of cancel each other out, imo. Not much of a difference at all, except for perhaps his 2009, 2011, and 2014 versions being a bit worse than the rest of the lot.

I'd also contest the bolded. Nadal had a bit of an early grass peak as well. He made the final in 2006 and played about as well as he did in 2011 (definitely better in the middle two sets) and his 2007 and 2008 Wimbledon runs need no introduction. I'd say Nadal peaked earlier on grass, later on hard, and had both early and late peaks for clay. It's just that he's that good on the surface.

While I think Nadal would definitely struggle more against Djokovic, suggesting that any version of Djokovic would be the favorite over any version of Nadal at RG from 2005-2008 is a bit of an outlandish claim, at least for me. People were already suggesting that Nadal was going to be the best on clay by 2007, even despite his lack of titles compared to Borg at the time. It was certainly because of his level.

For me, Nadal's RG ranking from those years probably goes like this:

2008
2007
2012 (can be swapped with 2007)
2010
2005
2013
2006
gap
2014
2011
gap
2009

About the bolded, this is not what I'm suggesting.
It's more prime version of Djokovic would be favore against 2005-06 Nadal at RG and had a shot against 2007 Nadal at RG. 2008 was too much for any version of Nole.

For Nadal's year rankings I can see your point, but it depends about what you are considering, results or level of play.
I think a player career play level is more or less a function with only 1 peak, steep raise before, some steady years near best level(prime), and a slower decline after. Usually(In this era) 24-28 or 23-29 are the best years, but Nadal was an early boomer, so at 22 he was at his peak or near it.
Obviously, there are external factor(Like injuries). A clear example is 2009: Nadal could had played his best tennis that year(And at AO he did), but he was banged up for most of the year. Same for 2017 Djokovic and 2014 Nadal after RG.
I tend to think Nadal level was more or less:
Improving from 2005 to 2007
Reached his peak in 2008-10
Remain near his peak 2012-14
Begin decline after 2014
In a ranking, at play level without injuries:
2008-10 > 2011-13 > 2014 and 2007 > 2006 > 2005. Obviously, as you value the actual season, 2014 and 2009 go down in the list because he didn't play at his level for most of the year.
I think you are underrating 2011, he was at a really high level in my opinion, but Nole was absolutely peak here.


This is an interesting way to do the analysis, but I don't think that literally plugging Djokovic into every Federer slot makes sense, and I also don't think we can ignore the impact of the change(s) on other players. For example, like me, you have Djokovic losing at Wimbledon 2003. Presumably, like me, you also have Roddick winning the title (although I could see a case for Philippoussis). Then, while I have Roddick winning the 2003 U.S. Open, you have Djokovic winning, presumably w/Djokovic taking out Roddick in the SF (his worst match of the tournament).

But, in our alternate reality, at the 2003 U.S. Open, the rankings and draw are completely different. And you have Djokovic having to take down a Roddick who has presumably won Wimbledon, Canada, and Cincinnati. That would be a all order.

Absolutely agree, this is all speculation. There isn't a right way to do it.
By the way, it works in both sense. Djokovic had better results early in his career than Federer, so he would had better draws from 2001 to early 2003 probably.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
About the bolded, this is not what I'm suggesting.
It's more prime version of Djokovic would be favore against 2005-06 Nadal at RG and had a shot against 2007 Nadal at RG. 2008 was too much for any version of Nole.

For Nadal's year rankings I can see your point, but it depends about what you are considering, results or level of play.
I think a player career play level is more or less a function with only 1 peak, steep raise before, some steady years near best level(prime), and a slower decline after. Usually(In this era) 24-28 or 23-29 are the best years, but Nadal was an early boomer, so at 22 he was at his peak or near it.
Obviously, there are external factor(Like injuries). A clear example is 2009: Nadal could had played his best tennis that year(And at AO he did), but he was banged up for most of the year. Same for 2017 Djokovic and 2014 Nadal after RG.
I tend to think Nadal level was more or less:
Improving from 2005 to 2007
Reached his peak in 2008-10
Remain near his peak 2012-14
Begin decline after 2014
In a ranking, at play level without injuries:
2008-10 > 2011-13 > 2014 and 2007 > 2006 > 2005. Obviously, as you value the actual season, 2014 and 2009 go down in the list because he didn't play at his level for most of the year.
I think you are underrating 2011, he was at a really high level in my opinion, but Nole was absolutely peak here.
I meant what I said when I said any version of Djokovic. Prime Djokovic, post-prime Djokovic, pre-prime Djokovic. It doesn't make a difference. I would back Nadal at RG 8 or 9 times out of 10 if he played Djokovic, even if it was the younger Nadal from 2005-2007 (I do think you're also underselling his 2007 form a bit; the last two sets of the RG 2007 final were, imo, on par with the level he brought in the 2008 final. The whole tournament was not far off from his 2008 form).

Of course you can assume a natural career evolution, but when a player wins that many RG titles and over a very long span of time, you kinda get the feeling that there's not much to separate his winning levels. I would probably back 2005 Nadal in a match against his 2011 or 2014 forms at RG -- maybe even 2013. His movement is just absolutely essential to the type of game he plays, and I do think he's slowed down since his younger years. He has compensated with better shotmaking, but I think this is simply enough to break even. I don't think it's been a net improvement at all.

As for the bolded, I'm only talking about the French Open. I'm not sure how well Nadal played in the clay Masters where Djokovic beat him, but that's not really my focus here. 2011 Nadal at the French Open was definitely worse than in previous years. He let Isner take him to five, played some poor matches against Andujar and Ljubicic, etc.

To me, it's only reasonable to think that the best clay-courter of all time in RG-winning form would be the favorite over someone who might be the 8th or 9th best clay-courter of all time, probably 8 matches out of 10.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
PSQkANl.gif
 

Tsongerer

Rookie
Possible. We will never had a proof of which is true, but it's one of them:
1) Peak Nole clearly > Peak Federer on clay, so Nadal was as dominant in 2005-07 as in 2012-14 is caused by the opponent, but he was better in 2012-14. So the opponent not clearly dominated in 2012-14 could beat 2005-07 Rafa.
2) Nadal was on a steady level, and Peak Nole almost = Peak Federer on clay. In this case Nole had probably lost to 2005-07 Rafa.

I'm for the first one. Because I think it's reasonable a player improve from 19-21 to 26-28 and Nadal improved on non-clay surfaces too in these years.
IMO he hadn't an early peak only on clay. He is only so good on clay that he can win earlier when he was not yet peak, but his trajectory was linear among surfaces(Maybe grass before HC).
Debatable, obviously.
An example is that, on the other hand, Federer-Djokovic 2011 is a clue for option 2. But a match is not a great sample, and I feel more reasonable to assume a "standard" career trajectory(26-28 > 19-21) for a player and consider that an outlier.

Absolute peak Nole lost to almost 30 years old Fed at RG. He is not the better claycourter, he just has a beter style to match up with Rafa that's it.
 
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