How Much Hip Rotation in 1HBH?

[misterchris]

I've seen a few videos of various players. The takeback and arm extension seems to be universal, but I have seen some players with no appreciable hip rotation (mostly arm), and others with considerable rotation (arm is along for ride).

Can someone explain the pros/cons of hip rotation for 1hbh?

The Brad Gilbert / Bryan Twins video on backhand shows him getting "into the chair", basically seting his whole lower body, and swinging with his arm.

Other videos show the whole torso rotating from the hips.

I can get plenty of power when I load my arm and lead the rotation with my hip. This seems more natural, but ultimately consistency is my goal.

 

[BreakPoint]

IMO, there should be almost no hip rotation at all when hitting a one-handed backhand. It should be just all arm and shoulder, going from low to high.

Watch how Federer does it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erFIJxfIXxc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZncVNX4vIOM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTXVHG0057M

 

[Solat]

^ agreed BP

 

[Element54]

The Fed opens up his shoulders as opposed to rotating his hip.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

...

The Brad Gilbert / Bryan Twins video on backhand shows him getting "into the chair", basically seting his whole lower body, and swinging with his arm...

You are referring to the SportSkool video, correct? sportskool.com/videos/backhand-advanced

IMO, there should be almost no hip rotation at all when hitting a one-handed backhand. It should be just all arm and shoulder, going from low to high...

I'll agree with this -- somewhat. It is not really all arm & shoulder. There is definitely some torso rotation involved - not a whole lot tho'. It is obvious that the torso rotation is nothing like the rotation seen in a FH stroke or a 2-handed BH. Take a look a the was Fed sets up. He coils his body so that the back of his front shoulder can be seen from across the net.

There is some uncoiling, by way of torso rotation. This will aid in transferring some leg power, to the upper body and arm/racket. There is initially some torso rotation that (nearly) stops as the arm and racquet starts its forward swing -- nearly a complete kinetic chain transfer as the torso link (nearly) stops and the arm + racket fly thru.

There is often a bit of residual torso rotation later in the follow-thru. Take a close look at the shoulders thru-out the stroke. Fed's front shoulder moves quite a bit, while the back shoulder only moves moderately. The fact that the back shoulder does move is an indication of some torso rotation. It is my belief that this power transfer from the torso to the arm will minimize stresses to the shoulder and elbow.

Now let's take a look at the hips. There is somewhat less hip rotation than torso rotation in the 3 vids list in post #2. However, upon close inspection, we can see that there is still hip rotation, albeit not a whole lot. The closed stance that is very common on 1HBh shots, tends to restrict the amount of hip rotation that can be employed -- this stance actually helps to minimize the hip rotation.

On some other Fed BHs that I've seen, there is more hip rotation than these. Looking at the various BH strokes demonstrated by Gilbert and the Bryans, we see some shots will very little hip rotation while other employ a bit more (especailly some of the Spanish slices shown).

There are a number of factors that will determine how much hip rotation is employed on a 1-hander. Stance is one of these factors. With the common closed stance there is often, but not always, minimal hip rotation. With a square stance or with a (less common) open stance, there may be somewhat more hip rotation employed at times.

With the Bryans, we often see more hip rotation on x-court shots more than dtl shots. Another time when hip rotation is evident is when the back foot takes an additional step, usually during the follow-thru. Some times this extra step is taken for balance or to stop the body momentum on a wide shot (and to prepare for recovery). Even tho' this hip rotation is more an artifact of the follow-thru, it does cause a bit extra hip rotation during the contact phase of the stroke.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Here is a video analysis (from USTA Player Development, I believe): youtube.com/watch?v=RORTYH588cE

It illustrates that there is some rotation of hips & torso, but the latter is much more evident. Take a look at the torso rotation in some of Gasquet's BHs: youtube.com/watch?v=hsdv5-eC3PY

.

 

[SirBlend12]

^ agreed BP

seconded.

10car.

 

[mikeler]

I don't think I could hit a 1 hander without keeping my hips still. One thing I like about the backhand versus the forehand is there is less movement and therefore (for me at least) less that can go wrong during the stroke. With your hip movement, you may be able to generate more power, but I think you may sacrifice consistency. Try hitting it with your hips still and if it works great. If not, stick with your current method.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Ok people, I'm not saying that hip rotation is a huge factor, but I contend that torso rotation is very important & should not be dismissed -- it is not just about arm & shoulder at BP states.

 

[princemidplus]

I agree with SystemicAnomaly about there being trunk/upper body rotation in a 1hbh. (If you can maintain balance on this shot without trunk rotation i would love to see it.)

I suppose if you playing topspin you will get more trunk rotation than if you slicing the ball.

 

[fuzz nation]

My hip rotation isn't too exaggerated on my 1hbh, but I'm better off if I use "more than none" for that stroke. The thing is, my progression starts with transferring my weight onto my right foot (I'm a righty), next I do a little hip rotation to effectively load the stroke, then I release it with my torso and shoulder turn. In comparison, my forehand hip rotation happens as I swing, not before. It's taken a while for me to get used to the different tempo that the 1hbh requires, but the hip rotation gives me more energy for my stroke.

 

[misterchris]

My hip rotation isn't too exaggerated on my 1hbh, but I'm better off if I use "more than none" for that stroke. The thing is, my progression starts with transferring my weight onto my right foot (I'm a righty), next I do a little hip rotation to effectively load the stroke, then I release it with my torso and shoulder turn. In comparison, my forehand hip rotation happens as I swing, not before. It's taken a while for me to get used to the different tempo that the 1hbh requires, but the hip rotation gives me more energy for my stroke.

This is exactly what I have noticed myself doing, but I started the thread becase I'm not sure if this is a bad idea.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

Hip & Shoulder Rotation on 1HBH

People see things and then talk about the “importance” of them at length and in detail, sometimes quite keenly, as if focusing on them will produce a better stroke.

I have never seen a student who needed to ADD hip or shoulder rotation to the forward swing of a 1HBH. Quite the opposite . . . I have seen hundreds who needed to “stop” their rotation so the arm unit could properly supinate and the racquet head could get around to contact before the body opens up.

MG

 

[misterchris]

I just got back from practice where I experimented with this.

I was able to greatly increase my consistency by focusing on making my stance solid before striking the ball. I was absolutely able to improve my stroke by concentrating on NOT moving my midsection and making sure everything from my waist down was solid. As a result, there was more arm movement (from shoulder), and instead of swinging through the ball, it seems like the contact is closer to where I open up and brush up for topspin.

There was probably some hip rotation, but the focus was on making sure my stance was solid.

 

[topspin92]

If you are rting to set up and really rip balls, then yes. Rally shot's I wouldn't do as much.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

People see things and then talk about the “importance” of them at length and in detail, sometimes quite keenly, as if focusing on them will produce a better stroke.

I have never seen a student who needed to ADD hip or shoulder rotation to the forward swing of a 1HBH. Quite the opposite . . . I have seen hundreds who needed to “stop” their rotation so the arm unit could properly supinate and the racquet head could get around to contact before the body opens up.

MG

I was not talking about importance of ADDING hip rotation at all. The OP appeared to be concerned about the presence of hip rotation observed in some single-hand BH shots -- the pros & cons. While many ppl do put too much body rotation into their 1-handers, there are times when some hip rotation is warranted. This is why I went into detail on this.

 

[NamRanger]

I think there is some hip rotation. For example, Gustavo Kuerten had quite a bit of hip rotation on his backhand, especially when he was going for a crosscourt heavy topspin backhand.

 

[BreakPoint]

Ok people, I'm not saying that hip rotation is a huge factor, but I contend that torso rotation is very important & should not be dismissed -- it is not just about arm & shoulder at BP states.

When I hit my 1HBH, I turn perpendicular to the net and plant my front foot with my racquet shoulder pointing towards the incoming ball. Then I bend my knees and transfer my weight from my back foot to my front foot while swinging my arm from low to high. There is almost no hip/torso rotation whatsoever. When I rotate my hip/torso is when I lose control of my shot. It's all weight transfer, using my legs, and arm and shoulder with a wrist flick at the end of the stroke. I can hit the ball very hard and very precisely this way. I have one of the best 1HBH's around as everyone I play always tell me.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

BP-

Granted, the amount of torso rotation used in the 1-hander is not huge, as you have indicated. However, it is nonetheless important to utilize it.

Do you have any videos of your no-rotation or minimal-rotation BH? I would seriously be interested in seeing this. I do not doubt that you have a splendid specimen of a 1-hander. I would even go as far as saying that is probably better than mine. Unfortunately, I suffer from a chronic shoulder problem -- primarily an external rotation issue.

It is because of this rotator issue that I am keenly aware of stresses on the shoulder by less-than-ideal implementations of certain shots. I can still hit a 1-hander, slice or topspin, but if I do not utilize an early prep and a proper kinetic chain, my shoulder lets me know.

I also do no doubt that it is possible to hit this some 1-handers with/no torso roation. However, I would be surprised if you did not eventually experience some shoulder or elbow issues, if all of your 1-handers employed almost no torso rotation. From what I've seen, many players who are past their late 40s have developed shoulder (& elbow) issues for varius reasons (some tennis-related; others, like mine, from some other sport).

In most of Fed's BH shots (snd Gasquet's BH as well), there is evidence of torso rotation. I can even see it in the 3 links that you provided. Take a look at how much of Fed's back you can see when he is coiled and before he starts the forward swing. Compare this to the orientation of of his back as he contacts the ball (& later during the follow-thru). This is clear evidence of torso rotation (since the camera angle does not change and his lower body orientation does not usually change).

Take a gander at the following scientifc study from 3 years ago. Specifically, look at the conclusion -- their adive on reducing tennis-related injuries with respect to the 1-handed BH stroke:

www.asbweb.org/conferences/2005/pdf/0179.pdf

,

 

[TTAce]

OP, are you watching Madrid Fed vs Del?

Find the answer from Fed!
As I see it, Not much of turning!

 

[misterchris]

OP, are you watching Madrid Fed vs Del?

Find the answer from Fed!
As I see it, Not much of turning!

Saw it earlier today in real time.

Fed has so much variation in his shots even hits them so successfuly on the run!

 

[TTAce]

Saw it earlier today in real time.

Fed has so much variation in his shots even hits them so successfuly on the run!

so what is your comment on "turn"?

 

[BreakPoint]

BP-

Granted, the amount of torso rotation used in the 1-hander is not huge, as you have indicated. However, it is nonetheless important to utilize it.

Do you have any videos of your no-rotation or minimal-rotation BH? I would seriously be interested in seeing this.

I don't have any videos of me playing tennis (I don't even own a video camera) but my 1HBH is very similar to Federer's so when you see a video of him hitting 1HBH's, well that's pretty much how I do it, too.

On some of Federer's backhands, there may be a bit of torso rotation, but that's only due to the momentum of swinging his heavy racquet bringing his shoulders around a little bit. If you watch closely, it's more of a slight upper body/shoulder rotation than a hip rotation, as his hips remain pretty still. But that slight rotation doesn't really do much for his shot. He would hit the shot just as well or maybe even better if he kept his shoulders more square or sideways to the net and minimized the slight rotation. He may also be allowing his shoulders to rotate slightly because he's getting ready to hit the next shot and wants to get quickly back to a neutral position.

BTW, I've been hitting the same 1HBH for well over 30 years and have never developed any shoulder problems from doing so.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I will agree that the hip rotation component is often very subtle (if detectable at all at normal viewing speeds). You may be correct, that it might not be all that important. At those times when Fed's hip rotation is evident, it is often an artifact of his follow-thru in those situations.

However, the initial torso rotation that that I see on many/most of his shots precedes the bulk of his forward swing. Yes, I will agree that some of the torso rotation seen later in the forward swing (during/after contact) is due, in part, to racquet momentum. However, in the 3 links that you provided of Fed's BH, I see some definite trunk/torso rotation in the early portion of the forward swing -- prior to contact. Apparently what you see & regard as very minor component, I see as significant & integral. It aids in accelerating the forward movement of the racket efficiently.

In case you hadn't seen it, this is the conclusion of the 2005 study:

"The efficient kinetic chain of backhand stroke successfully transferred the momentum from proximal trunk to distal hand segments. The segment dropout or kinetic chain breakage decreases the ultimate force and energy available to the racketball, and puts abnormally large strains on the surrounding segments. The coaches and clinicians need to advise the tennis players to use the advantage of large trunk muscles and to improve the strength of shoulder rotator cuff muscles to generate the racket momentum for reducing the tennis-related injuries"
.

 

[mikeler]

I think there is some hip rotation. For example, Gustavo Kuerten had quite a bit of hip rotation on his backhand, especially when he was going for a crosscourt heavy topspin backhand.

Maybe that is why he had all those hip problems that forced his early retirement this year.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Maybe that is why he had all those hip problems that forced his early retirement this year.

Some experts believe that it was the overuse of an exaggerated open-stance FH that caused Gustavo Kuerten's hip problem. Same thing with Lleyton Hewitt. Hadn't heard anything about BHs contributing to these hip problems.

 

[NamRanger]

Some experts believe that it was the overuse of an exaggerated open-stance FH that caused Gustavo Kuerten's hip problem. Same thing with Lleyton Hewitt. Hadn't heard anything about BHs contributing to these hip problems.

It was definitely his backhand that caused the problems, which was only compounded by the open stance FH. He had massive amounts of rotation on the hips/upper torso.

 

[Element54]

I will agree that the hip rotation component is often very subtle (if detectable at all at normal viewing speeds). You may be correct, that it might not be all that important. At those times when Fed's hip rotation is evident, it is often an artifact of his follow-thru in those situations.

I would agree with this. It's the result of the racket headspeed, combined with the shoulder turn that forces the hip/trunk to follow through. So what I'm suggesting is the hip is the secondary motion from the upper body/trunk (primary).

But of course you slightly open your stance which is from the hip rotation, but not fully.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Yes, this could very well be the case in many instances where hip turn is detectable. Interesting handle. Do you also go by the moniker, Xenon?