MEP vs ET Players - Original TT Epic
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StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
Ian is pretty good at the net and with overheads, so i think he'll win against this type of player
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Reflexively, against Green's style one attacks the net because it forces the opponent to take more risk hitting passing shots and taking more risk is the last thing a pusher wants to do.
However, Green is not the traditional pusher: he demonstrated against Orange that he can hit accurate passing shots and lobs well and judiciously also.
So simply coming to the net isn't enough; it has to be done intelligently.
One thing that Orange did not do is S&V. Instead, he waited for a possibly better opportunity. The downside is that Green knows this and thus can hit very conservative returns, secure in the knowledge that Orange will never S&V and take advantage of a mediocre return. Ian's strength is his net game so I'm betting he will S&V a lot to force Green to take more risk but not so often that Green gets into a groove. This will steer Green into a place he doesn't want to be.
The other tactic against this style is to bring the opponent to the net, again because it yanks them out of their comfort zone. How many volleys and OHs did Green hit? Probably not many. He's a backboard while comfortably ensconced on the BL but how well does he do at the net? Ian analyzed Green's game vs Orange and noted that Green wasn't all that comfortable moving forward and attacking. So I think Ian will try to exploit this.
A big factor is if Ian tries to use his new TS BH rather than the ol' trusty slice. If he slices, I think Ian will win 3&1. If he TSs, it will be closer but Ian will still win.
However, Green is not the traditional pusher: he demonstrated against Orange that he can hit accurate passing shots and lobs well and judiciously also.
So simply coming to the net isn't enough; it has to be done intelligently.
One thing that Orange did not do is S&V. Instead, he waited for a possibly better opportunity. The downside is that Green knows this and thus can hit very conservative returns, secure in the knowledge that Orange will never S&V and take advantage of a mediocre return. Ian's strength is his net game so I'm betting he will S&V a lot to force Green to take more risk but not so often that Green gets into a groove. This will steer Green into a place he doesn't want to be.
The other tactic against this style is to bring the opponent to the net, again because it yanks them out of their comfort zone. How many volleys and OHs did Green hit? Probably not many. He's a backboard while comfortably ensconced on the BL but how well does he do at the net? Ian analyzed Green's game vs Orange and noted that Green wasn't all that comfortable moving forward and attacking. So I think Ian will try to exploit this.
A big factor is if Ian tries to use his new TS BH rather than the ol' trusty slice. If he slices, I think Ian will win 3&1. If he TSs, it will be closer but Ian will still win.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Green is a lefty too.
I think Green wins. Ian is getting back to match play and getting back to form after a long break from competition. I just don’t think he gets enough match play experience in before the match (especially against that style of play) and green has been playing and winning a lot. Even from a fitness perspective green probably has the edge. Also Ian has been reworking his back hand and needs to have all weapons fully ready for that match. Even green shirt admits that it gets easier to play him if you keep playing him over time. However, I don’t think it matters win or lose on Ian’s perspective on the game and his coaching etc... Ian is now a coach and instructor. His value add is the knowledge he has gained over 20 years of watching other players, correcting form, studying analysis, seeing what advice works and doesn’t and adjusting, etc etc... He broke down a match between troll and green shirt in a video series and thought about how to apply high percentage tennis in hindsight. If he loses - to me, it doesn’t mean the analysis is wrong or that he doesn’t know how to play green shirt - could be so many other factors - like not having all weapons ready in time or green shirt adapting or some of his suggestions need adjustment because green shirt has other tools ready but not used in that video or whatever.
I do commend troll, green shirt, and Ian for the openness they provided around this and their willingness to post responses to people’s questions. I think it’s a relevant topic because it is real. There are a couple of friends that I play with that have a similar approach to the game and I can get maybe 1 game off them in a set. So frustrating but at the same time very fun to me - because of the mental challenge to try to figure out how to adjust and adapt. Also exposes things I need to work on in my game for sure.
I do commend troll, green shirt, and Ian for the openness they provided around this and their willingness to post responses to people’s questions. I think it’s a relevant topic because it is real. There are a couple of friends that I play with that have a similar approach to the game and I can get maybe 1 game off them in a set. So frustrating but at the same time very fun to me - because of the mental challenge to try to figure out how to adjust and adapt. Also exposes things I need to work on in my game for sure.
Yeah. I think I also saw him switch to right hand to reach for a couple of balls. Crafty and does anything it takes to win a point!
Curious
G.O.A.T.
This is what green shirt said when asked ' how does one beat you?'
1) Unless someone an exceptional serve, it's unlikely they will get many free points off of serve. So focus more on placement and not double faulting rather than power. That will help preserve energy, which will help.
2) Be mentally prepared for long points and to hit that one (or more) extra ball
3) Come to the net frequently, but on your own terms, to limit how much time I have to react.
4) Be aware that it's highly unlikely that you will outlast me playing my style. Don't count on my wearing down.
5) Play me! People that play me more than once tend to do better against me in subsequent matches, while the reverse is rarely true. I think people get accustomed to my style and are more mentally/physically prepared when they have seen it before.
And his answer to the question: where did you learn this style?
When I started playing, I was playing almost exclusively against people who had more experience than me. Therefore, I was mostly reacting to what my opponents were doing. I noticed that I was most successful when I tried to disrupt my opponents' strategies and hit high percentage shots, so I built my game around that. I also saw that I was generally able to wear down my opponents physically and/or mentally, so I incorporated attrition as part of my strategy as well.
1) Unless someone an exceptional serve, it's unlikely they will get many free points off of serve. So focus more on placement and not double faulting rather than power. That will help preserve energy, which will help.
2) Be mentally prepared for long points and to hit that one (or more) extra ball
3) Come to the net frequently, but on your own terms, to limit how much time I have to react.
4) Be aware that it's highly unlikely that you will outlast me playing my style. Don't count on my wearing down.
5) Play me! People that play me more than once tend to do better against me in subsequent matches, while the reverse is rarely true. I think people get accustomed to my style and are more mentally/physically prepared when they have seen it before.
And his answer to the question: where did you learn this style?
When I started playing, I was playing almost exclusively against people who had more experience than me. Therefore, I was mostly reacting to what my opponents were doing. I noticed that I was most successful when I tried to disrupt my opponents' strategies and hit high percentage shots, so I built my game around that. I also saw that I was generally able to wear down my opponents physically and/or mentally, so I incorporated attrition as part of my strategy as well.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Good stuff; thanks for finding this!
Check. I have a mediocre serve. I made the same observation when thinking about how Ian should play: Ian doesn't have a big enough serve to make a difference off of the serve alone. However, combining that with S&V will be a critical factor for reasons I pointed out above: it will change how Green returns.
I am deficient at this. Among my many weaknesses, this might be the biggest.
I also mentioned this in a previous post ["So simply coming to the net isn't enough; it has to be done intelligently."].
For me, it wouldn't be about limiting Green's time so much as it is that's where my strength lies.
My matches are almost never about outlasting my opponent. The one time I did play someone similar [ex-pro soccer player], the points didn't necessarily last a long time but I had to "win" the point more than once.
This is probably the most important point: people either don't like this style or find it aesthetically unpleasing so they avoid it. Which means when they do encounter it, they are that much less prepared to deal with it.
I appreciate him being so transparent. A lot of players aren't that self-aware and if they are, wouldn't volunteer such information for fear it might give future opponents an edge [although, agreeing to be filmed allows any future opponent material to study rather than relying on 2nd or 3rd hand accounts by other opponents ["And that's how history became legend, legend became myth, and some things that should not have been forgotten were lost."]].
This should be a very interesting chess match.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
it will be real curious to see how it pans out, the actual match vs what tt forum members think
Yep. Ben T. (Green shirt) even mentions that he only has time to either take lessons or to play matches and he enjoys the match play so that’s what he chooses to do. IMO - He is totally self aware! Respect!
giantschwinn
Semi-Pro
I still can't get over Ian charging $2000 for a one day clinic at Indian Wells. I hope he loses.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Wait, you took his lesson?
I recall @dimkin attended as well. Is it really 2 grand per day? Did it include hotel and food and transportation?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Wasn’t that with top tennis training?
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
user92626
G.O.A.T.
JEEEBUZZZZ!!! Don't tell me the people on this board fear the red shirt! Especially those who argue incessantly to get rated 4.5, 5.0!He’s a master of placement. The red shirt!
My tennis sucks @$$$ lately. There's something about teaming up with very crappy partners who start out committing stupid random errors for several games... I just can't bring myself to focus and play well in saving mode all the time, ie constantly playing with 2 or 3 points down in every game.
I want to play singles. Nobody wants to. One guy who beat me in two close sets before just flat out telling me he preferred doubles and tripples. Never singles again. Apparently our singles were too much for him.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
MEP is probably just a phone call away!
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Very interesting point. He really never does.
Rubens
Hall of Fame
Exactly. This means it's easy to bring him forward: no need for a perfect drop shot, just hit a slow short sitter (much easier technically). Don't worry about him crushing it, he can't
Then when he's at the net, finish him off. He's not much of a net player; 4.5 figured that out early.
As we speak, Ian is feverishly taking notes. And Green shirt is feverishly learning to crush a sitter
Keendog
Professional
Yes it does, plus transfers if you go see him in Milwaukee. Indian Wells and Hawaii are different things, they are destination clinics. Not all that much more than if you hired your local coach for a full 8 hours for one or two days. Which one do you think you'll get more value out of?
r2473
G.O.A.T.
There's lots of ways to beat green shirt guy. What he shows is that most rec players 4.5 and below either can't think of effective strategies or can't execute them (or both).Exactly. This means it's easy to bring him forward: no need for a perfect drop shot, just hit a slow short sitter (much easier technically). Don't worry about him crushing it, he can't
Then when he's at the net, finish him off. He's not much of a net player; 4.5 figured that out early.
As we speak, Ian is feverishly taking notes. And Green shirt is feverishly learning to crush a sitter
Your idea will definitely work for someone who can execute it. But green shirt is good at hitting his slice shots to spots on the court that make it awkward for his opponent. So while he may not hit winners when you bring him in, he might hit a good enough shot that gets you scrambling, and then he'll win the point in 2 or 3 balls (and frustrate the crap out of you).
Green shirt's biggest weapon, is "psychological warfare". In other words, you might be able to execute your strategy in front of a keyboard, but how about when you've just made several errors after green shirt has retrieved a bunch of balls and got you frustrated. Are you going to be able to remain calm, focused, and engaged in the match? Or are you going to go "Fabio Fognini" and start imploding? That's the real genius to green shirt. He beats guys psychologically. They want to lose. They just want to get out of there.
Which is straight out of Tilden's book "Spin of the ball" (the precursor to "Winning Ugly"). He talks about how tennis is really a mental battle. And what you're trying to do is break your opponents will by making him uncomfortable and frustrated. Green shirt understands this.
I have a lot of respect for pushers, but I think Ian should be able to handle this guy without too much trouble. To beat a pusher you need to have a few shots in your arsenal that many 4.0 or 4.5 players haven't quite mastered. Ian on the other hand as an instructor and a 5.0 or better player does have those shots.
Plus, pushers don't have a plan B. They aren't saving a power game that they will pull out if pushing doesn't work. So, if you gain an advantage over them then you should be able to maintain it.
Plus, pushers don't have a plan B. They aren't saving a power game that they will pull out if pushing doesn't work. So, if you gain an advantage over them then you should be able to maintain it.
Rubens
Hall of Fame
r2473
G.O.A.T.
He fears short balls from opponents that can take advantage of him. Not from opponents who can't. I didn't watch much of this video, but I'm assuming this opponent was able to get the better of those types of exchanges.
Green shirt has nothing but weaknesses. But recognizing them and being able to actually execute / take advantage of them in a real match are very different things. And what happens is, when opponents fail to execute, they get frustrated and implode.
Could be. I don't remember for sure. All I remember is that he had posted a video of attending a training session at IW by one of the online coaches.
The green shirt does not even split step on serve returns - how's he able to return each and every serve? The serves he is receiving must be really slow??
What if the other guys returns green shirt's serve from near the service line and follows to the net? His returns were too predictable and harmless. Not single return winner - or even a really deep to the corner. weird
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r2473
G.O.A.T.
Green shirt (intuitively) understands that:
1) "Every shot" (see 5 below) needs to have spin. Either topspin, underspin, or sidespin.
2) Sidespin is the easiest spin to impart with consistency (but it lacks power)
3) Underspin is the second easiest
4) Topspin is the riskiest; (it has the most power, but the least consistency both in terms of placement and errors)
5) When he's out of position, he just hits soft, high, and safe, so gravity alone keeps it in. In some sense, he does this on every shot. But in these situations, he doesn't even impart spin. He just pushes high and deep.
He also understands that:
1) A shorter stroke is more consistent than a longer stroke
2) Early preparation is key to consistency (he always gets his racquet behind the ball early)
Most of the time, green shirt basically "catches" the ball on his racquet and sends it back with sidespin. His strokes aren't "concussive". He doesn't "hit" the ball. He "massages" the ball.
1) "Every shot" (see 5 below) needs to have spin. Either topspin, underspin, or sidespin.
2) Sidespin is the easiest spin to impart with consistency (but it lacks power)
3) Underspin is the second easiest
4) Topspin is the riskiest; (it has the most power, but the least consistency both in terms of placement and errors)
5) When he's out of position, he just hits soft, high, and safe, so gravity alone keeps it in. In some sense, he does this on every shot. But in these situations, he doesn't even impart spin. He just pushes high and deep.
He also understands that:
1) A shorter stroke is more consistent than a longer stroke
2) Early preparation is key to consistency (he always gets his racquet behind the ball early)
Most of the time, green shirt basically "catches" the ball on his racquet and sends it back with sidespin. His strokes aren't "concussive". He doesn't "hit" the ball. He "massages" the ball.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
It's alot simpler to me.
Green shirt's hitting skill is stunted at the level we see. Fortunately it's sufficient for him to hit the ball back.
But he really beefed up on his anticipation, reaction and movement skills. His opponent looks tired and heavy -- with movement and halfbaked swings -- but Green shirt always looks bouncy.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I actually knew one guy like that in a night session before covid time. We used to play sets for a few bucks. He was "fearsome". Single guy, fit as a nail. No funny business or any concerns with improving strokes or looks. After 20+ years, he was content with whatever he's got, and only sharpened his reaction, fitness and his experience with variety of responses.
You are onto something here - we should have 15,000 folks play and 2 watch, instead of two players playing with 15K folks watching/talking about them at the French open.
Ian should win very easily. Better players realise there is no urgency to end the point, will run him side to side or just approach to his bh.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Could Ian be more 4.5 than 5.0 at the moment? And remember, green shirt beats most of the 4.5 players.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Find another group. Now you don't have to offer handicaps and you can play singles against people who hate doubles [ie @tlm].
Contact the local HS coach or a club pro and offer to pay for match partners.
Join a club.
Unless you live in a tennis desert, you should have options.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Strengths:
- Consistency
- Mental toughness
- Athleticism
- Immune to what other people think about his game
That's an impressive list of strengths.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
All valid suggestions. When I reach that boiling point, I will sure pursue them.
Green shirt looks like a guy who beats people by breaking down their strokes.
I think a match with kevin would be more interesting since he likes to blast the ball. Ian though may not be as talented, but pretty smart on court.
Ntrp is relative to competition. If your winning all of your matches in an area with weak 4.0's you will be moved up to 4.5. That doesnt mean they are 4.5's everywhere though.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It wouldn't be weird if you played him: then you'd realize that consistently hitting such shots is easier said than done.
More likely what happens is the receiver overhits and makes a ton of errors.
People who understand the rise-peak-fall rule (pretty sure ian does) would give green shirt alot of trouble.
There was a guy who poked and dinked when i was playing alot, he was a lefty s&v though. Came to net alot, didnt give pace for them to pass, goat over head. He played a money tourney in gainsville and beat 4 of UF's guys, including the top 3 (he won touney). I once lost 6-4 but as close as i ever got. These players can be trouble but green shirt doesnt have any weapons to keep the opponents shot in check. That threat of coming in and finishing anything weak you hit.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only making the distinction between understanding something and execution.
And Green did demonstrate against Orange that he had passing shots and great lobs. So if you approach off of any old shot, you might be surprised. I think Ian recognizes this and will work on quality approaches, including service returns.
Green's weapon is not keeping his opponent's shot in check: it's allowing the shot but recognizing that the opponent will often overhit. Plus Green can defend like a madman and make you hit "one more shot", which is the downfall of many.
Did you see the other guy's returns? everyone landed near the service line. got to try to hit the returns deep or to the corners .
Ian has played long enough that i have confidence in him executing. Also has a really wide wing span, i think green shirt maybe in trouble
Ya, rise-peak-fall. You can tell how good someone is when you see them hitting the ball on the decline.
Also if you looked at the deep approach and first volley. The volley crossed the baseline, not a short angle across the side line, Ian can hit those. Standing that far behind the baseline makes green travel alot further than 2 steps from the hash mark
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