My proposal: ATP World Tour Card system

NaBUru38

NaBUru38

Rookie
The current ATP tournament entry system is confusing. Yes, players are ordered by the world ranking, but every week it changes a lot, so it's very inconsistent. Also, you never know which players will appear at any given tournament, because any player can apply to any.

I think that golf uses a better system. Players get tournament cards, so card holders know which exact tournaments they can apply to play.

So, without further introduction, here's my ATP World Tour Card system:

- o -

There are four card levels, with a fixed number of card holders each:
Gold (24 players), Silver (16 players). Bronze (16 players each), and Blue (24 Players each).

Each card holder gets automatic invitations to several tournaments.

When a player gets a card, he keeps it for 52 weeks. Once the 52 weeks are over, the player automatically gets a card from the lower level, which again lasts 52 weeks.

Players can earn a card by having good performances, which may cause other players to get bumped down.

- o -

Players get a Gold Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 16 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 1000.
Players get a Silver Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 32 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 500.
Players get a Bronze Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 48 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 250.
Players get a Blue Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 64 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of an ATP 250.
  • Win two ATP Challengers.
- o -

At each tournament, most spots in the main draw are given to ATP World Tour Card holders.
  • The 80 ATP World Tour Card holders automatically qualify to the four Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000 at Indian Wells and Miami (which have a 96-player draw).
  • The other eight ATP Masters 1000 give invitations to the 40 Gold and Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 500 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Silver and 8 Bronze Card holders.
  • The ATP 500 at Barcelona and Washington (which have a 48-player draw) get the 32 Silver and Bronze Card holders.
  • The other ATP 500 tournaments (which have a 32-player draw) give invitations to the 16 Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Bronze and 12 Blue Card holders.
  • When three ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 5 Bronze and 8 Blue Card holders.
In other words:
  • Gold Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000.
  • Silver Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, ATP Masters 1000 and ATP 500.
  • Bronze Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, six ATP 500, and 12 ATP 250.
  • Blue Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, and all ATP 250.
In addition to qualifiers and wildcards, there are additional open spots for uninvited players. For example, a Gold Card player can apply to ATP 500 and ATP 250 tournaments, and a Blue Card player may apply to ATP 1000 and ATP 500 tournaments.
 
Deon Sanders

Deon Sanders

Legend
Not sure what is so confusing about it right now

The acceptance list is just done in order of the players rankings (usually a week to two weeks in advance) and then seeded in that order

It couldnt be any simpler

What you just typed up. That is confusing as hell
 
EloQuent

EloQuent

Legend
200w.gif
 
J

JMR

Hall of Fame
You left out the Platinum Card, which provides access to advance sales of Phish concert tickets. Plus dental coverage!
 
EloQuent

EloQuent

Legend
ghostofMecir said:
I feel bad for the OP. It’s obvious he/she put a lot of thought into something that nobody gives a **** about. On top of that, the solution is convoluted and frankly inane.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone has a problem with it being based on rankings, just maybe the rankings are confusing to people.
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
NaBUru38 said:
The current ATP tournament entry system is confusing. Yes, players are ordered by the world ranking, but every week it changes a lot, so it's very inconsistent. Also, you never know which players will appear at any given tournament, because any player can apply to any.

I think that golf uses a better system. Players get tournament cards, so card holders know which exact tournaments they can apply to play.

So, without further introduction, here's my ATP World Tour Card system:

- o -

There are four card levels, with a fixed number of card holders each:
Gold (24 players), Silver (16 players). Bronze (16 players each), and Blue (24 Players each).

Each card holder gets automatic invitations to several tournaments.

When a player gets a card, he keeps it for 52 weeks. Once the 52 weeks are over, the player automatically gets a card from the lower level, which again lasts 52 weeks.

Players can earn a card by having good performances, which may cause other players to get bumped down.

- o -

Players get a Gold Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 16 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 1000.
Players get a Silver Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 32 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 500.
Players get a Bronze Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 48 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 250.
Players get a Blue Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 64 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of an ATP 250.
  • Win two ATP Challengers.
- o -

At each tournament, most spots in the main draw are given to ATP World Tour Card holders.
  • The 80 ATP World Tour Card holders automatically qualify to the four Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000 at Indian Wells and Miami (which have a 96-player draw).
  • The other eight ATP Masters 1000 give invitations to the 40 Gold and Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 500 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Silver and 8 Bronze Card holders.
  • The ATP 500 at Barcelona and Washington (which have a 48-player draw) get the 32 Silver and Bronze Card holders.
  • The other ATP 500 tournaments (which have a 32-player draw) give invitations to the 16 Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Bronze and 12 Blue Card holders.
  • When three ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 5 Bronze and 8 Blue Card holders.
In other words:
  • Gold Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000.
  • Silver Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, ATP Masters 1000 and ATP 500.
  • Bronze Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, six ATP 500, and 12 ATP 250.
  • Blue Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, and all ATP 250.
In addition to qualifiers and wildcards, there are additional open spots for uninvited players. For example, a Gold Card player can apply to ATP 500 and ATP 250 tournaments, and a Blue Card player may apply to ATP 1000 and ATP 500 tournaments.
Click to expand...
This is the stupidest think I've ever heard. The system needs to track current levels of play better, not worse. Six weeks out is bad enough, but necessary for tournaments and players to schedule. Its a shame that players in top form that should be in events don't get in due to the six week rule.

If you want to beef up protected rankings for injured players that's fine, but frankly the current system appears to be pretty good.
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
Deon Sanders said:
Not sure what is so confusing about it right now

The acceptance list is just done in order of the players rankings (usually a week to two weeks in advance) and then seeded in that order

It couldnt be any simpler

What you just typed up. That is confusing as hell
Click to expand...
Acceptance is six weeks out. Seeding is based on latest official rankings which come out on Mondays with the draws generally being done later in the week.
 
D

Deleted member 742196

Guest
NaBUru38 said:
The current ATP tournament entry system is confusing. Yes, players are ordered by the world ranking, but every week it changes a lot, so it's very inconsistent. Also, you never know which players will appear at any given tournament, because any player can apply to any.

I think that golf uses a better system. Players get tournament cards, so card holders know which exact tournaments they can apply to play.

So, without further introduction, here's my ATP World Tour Card system:

- o -

There are four card levels, with a fixed number of card holders each:
Gold (24 players), Silver (16 players). Bronze (16 players each), and Blue (24 Players each).

Each card holder gets automatic invitations to several tournaments.

When a player gets a card, he keeps it for 52 weeks. Once the 52 weeks are over, the player automatically gets a card from the lower level, which again lasts 52 weeks.

Players can earn a card by having good performances, which may cause other players to get bumped down.

- o -

Players get a Gold Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 16 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 1000.
Players get a Silver Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 32 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 500.
Players get a Bronze Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 48 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 250.
Players get a Blue Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 64 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of an ATP 250.
  • Win two ATP Challengers.
- o -

At each tournament, most spots in the main draw are given to ATP World Tour Card holders.
  • The 80 ATP World Tour Card holders automatically qualify to the four Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000 at Indian Wells and Miami (which have a 96-player draw).
  • The other eight ATP Masters 1000 give invitations to the 40 Gold and Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 500 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Silver and 8 Bronze Card holders.
  • The ATP 500 at Barcelona and Washington (which have a 48-player draw) get the 32 Silver and Bronze Card holders.
  • The other ATP 500 tournaments (which have a 32-player draw) give invitations to the 16 Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Bronze and 12 Blue Card holders.
  • When three ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 5 Bronze and 8 Blue Card holders.
In other words:
  • Gold Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000.
  • Silver Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, ATP Masters 1000 and ATP 500.
  • Bronze Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, six ATP 500, and 12 ATP 250.
  • Blue Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, and all ATP 250.
In addition to qualifiers and wildcards, there are additional open spots for uninvited players. For example, a Gold Card player can apply to ATP 500 and ATP 250 tournaments, and a Blue Card player may apply to ATP 1000 and ATP 500 tournaments.
Click to expand...

Could I use my AA miles to enter Grand Slams?
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
NaBUru38 said:
The current ATP tournament entry system is confusing. Yes, players are ordered by the world ranking, but every week it changes a lot, so it's very inconsistent. Also, you never know which players will appear at any given tournament, because any player can apply to any.

I think that golf uses a better system. Players get tournament cards, so card holders know which exact tournaments they can apply to play.

So, without further introduction, here's my ATP World Tour Card system:

- o -

There are four card levels, with a fixed number of card holders each:
Gold (24 players), Silver (16 players). Bronze (16 players each), and Blue (24 Players each).

Each card holder gets automatic invitations to several tournaments.

When a player gets a card, he keeps it for 52 weeks. Once the 52 weeks are over, the player automatically gets a card from the lower level, which again lasts 52 weeks.

Players can earn a card by having good performances, which may cause other players to get bumped down.

- o -

Players get a Gold Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 16 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 1000.
Players get a Silver Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 32 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 500.
Players get a Bronze Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 48 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the semifinals of an ATP 250.
Players get a Blue Card if they:
  • Appear in the top 64 in the world rankings.
  • Advance to the quarterfinals of an ATP 250.
  • Win two ATP Challengers.
- o -

At each tournament, most spots in the main draw are given to ATP World Tour Card holders.
  • The 80 ATP World Tour Card holders automatically qualify to the four Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000 at Indian Wells and Miami (which have a 96-player draw).
  • The other eight ATP Masters 1000 give invitations to the 40 Gold and Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 500 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Silver and 8 Bronze Card holders.
  • The ATP 500 at Barcelona and Washington (which have a 48-player draw) get the 32 Silver and Bronze Card holders.
  • The other ATP 500 tournaments (which have a 32-player draw) give invitations to the 16 Silver Card holders.
  • When two ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 8 Bronze and 12 Blue Card holders.
  • When three ATP 250 tournaments are held the same week, each gets 5 Bronze and 8 Blue Card holders.
In other words:
  • Gold Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams and ATP Masters 1000.
  • Silver Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, ATP Masters 1000 and ATP 500.
  • Bronze Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, six ATP 500, and 12 ATP 250.
  • Blue Card holders get automatic invitations to all Grand Slams, two ATP Masters 1000, and all ATP 250.
In addition to qualifiers and wildcards, there are additional open spots for uninvited players. For example, a Gold Card player can apply to ATP 500 and ATP 250 tournaments, and a Blue Card player may apply to ATP 1000 and ATP 500 tournaments.
Click to expand...
I've changed my mind.... So for example if a hot player like Shapovalov makes SF at Rogers Cup he immediately gets a gold card.
Rublev's QF at US Open bumps him to Gold Card. (Both of these players had rough schedules in the Fall while they waited six weeks for their results to affect entries.)
Ruud's SF in Rio last year would have bumped him up onto the main tour for clay which would have been good.

The problem with the system is how do you handle at the margins when not enough gold and silver card holders play an event or worse, too many wish to play. It's also not clear if this system creates scheduling uncertainties which would be ruinous for players and tournaments.
 
M

Max G.

Legend
EloQuent said:
Rankings should take into account opponent. But this might be too complicated.
Click to expand...

WTA used to do that. Award bonus points for beating higher-level opponents. I don't think they still do but I'm not 100% sure.

It wasn't very complicated, but it could lead to weird results where a player might go down in ranking points even if they defend a title (because they had easier opponents this time). It made draws matter a little bit more, where a low-ranked player could suddenly vault up the rankings if they ran into a top player having a bad day, so apparently the players didn't like it.
 
Last edited:
Wander

Wander

Hall of Fame
Max G. said:
WTA used to do that. Award bonus points for beating higher-level opponents. I don't think they still do but I'm not 100% sure.

It wasn't very complicated, but it could lead to weird results where a player might go down in ranking points even if they defend a title (because they had easier opponents this time). It made draws matter a little bit more, where a low-ranked player could suddenly vault up the rankings if they ran into a top player having a bad day, so apparently the players didn't like it.
Click to expand...
The ATP used to do this too. They system was dropped in 2000.
 
N

Nashvegas

Guest
Max G. said:
WTA used to do that. Award bonus points for beating higher-level opponents. I don't think they still do but I'm not 100% sure.

It wasn't very complicated, but it could lead to weird results where a player might go down in ranking points even if they defend a title (because they had easier opponents this time). It made draws matter a little bit more, where a low-ranked player could suddenly vault up the rankings if they ran into a top player having a bad day, so apparently the players didn't like it.
Click to expand...

Rafa’s US Open win might have dropped him out of the top 20 under that system.
 
M

mr tonyz

Professional
On the subject of ATP rankings (we should rename this week ATP Ranking week , all things considered) i have seen a few times when 2 players were dead equal on points (typically a long , long way down the rankings list where even just a few points means a lot) i was curious how that works? I'm thinking the guy that was @ the higher spot first would remain on that ranking if another player equals his points total? I also checked H2H one time to see if that could have been a tie-breaker of sorts , but the guy with the losing H2H was ranked higher.

Furthermore , imagine if this were to happen in the top 10? Or if one day the top 2 ranked players in the world would be tied for #1? (i'm sure it's a mathematical possibility but highly improbable considering the wealth of points that are on tap @ the top)
 
M

Max G.

Legend
It's described in the FAQ: http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/rankings/rankings-faq

Ties. When two or more players have the same total number of points, ties shall be broken as follows:

1) The most total points from the Grand Slams, ATP World Tour Masters 1000 mandatory tournaments and Nitto ATP Finals main draws, and if still tied, then,
2) The fewest events played, counting all missed Grand Slams, ATP World Tour Masters 1000 tournaments and Nitto ATP Finals they could have played - as if played, and if still tied, then,
3) The highest number of points from one single tournament, then, if needed, the second highest, and so on.
Click to expand...
 
M

Max G.

Legend
Random facts I just found looking at the rankings:

The two highest-ranked players with the same number of points (right now) are #42 Robin Haase and #43 Gael Monfils, each with 1,175 points. Haase is ranked higher because he has 635 points from Grand Slams/Masters Series events, whereas Monfils only has 595.

The two highest-ranked players that are actually tied in the rankings, even after taking into account all tiebreak rules, are joint number 814 in the world, Bogdan Borza and Petru-Alexandru Luncanu. They each have 20 points over 17 tournaments, each having reached one Futures final (10 points), two futures QFs (2 points each), six futures R16s (1 point each) and lost in the R32 at 8 futures events. Funnily enough, they're both Romanian and even played many of the same events! They've played each other once each in 2015, 2016, and 2017, with Borza leading the head to head 2-1. I think that's kind of hilarious - it's a total coincidence that they have exactly the same points, and that they didn't happen to tie someone on the other end of the globe.
 
M

mr tonyz

Professional
Max G. said:
Random facts I just found looking at the rankings:

The two highest-ranked players with the same number of points (right now) are #42 Robin Haase and #43 Gael Monfils, each with 1,175 points. Haase is ranked higher because he has 635 points from Grand Slams/Masters Series events, whereas Monfils only has 595.

The two highest-ranked players that are actually tied in the rankings, even after taking into account all tiebreak rules, are joint number 814 in the world, Bogdan Borza and Petru-Alexandru Luncanu. They each have 20 points over 17 tournaments, each having reached one Futures final (10 points), two futures QFs (2 points each), six futures R16s (1 point each) and lost in the R32 at 8 futures events. Funnily enough, they're both Romanian and even played many of the same events! They've played each other once each in 2015, 2016, and 2017, with Borza leading the head to head 2-1. I think that's kind of hilarious - it's a total coincidence that they have exactly the same points, and that they didn't happen to tie someone on the other end of the globe.
Click to expand...


So are you saying that both of these Romanian players are absolutely dead even with everything? I'll have to check out this joint-ranking!

p.s the 2-1 H2H is hilarious. I'm not sure what is more of a lottery jackpot win here , that both of these guys have satisfied every ATP Tie-Breaker rule , or that they have actually played against each other? (Being from the same country & playing some of the same events has obviously what allowed the H2H to exist , but still)

Well i'm a Federer fan & i'll stand behind my heavily biased anti-H2H stance. So i'll go for the guy with the solitary win! :D
 
M

mr tonyz

Professional
Ok i just checked it out. Funny how ATP follow what a lot of people were arguing over in a post a while back that was started by a Nadal Fan. It had something to do with total number of titles won on different surfaces & he counted Nadal in the top ten of Total Hard-Court Titles won not factoring in other players that were on ties or something . It was hilarious , then he stood by the defence of if 2 people tie @ the Olympics the next medal below would still count. ie 2 players receive gold , then there's still Silver & Bronze Medal that's awarded. But again another poster debunked that claim also as with 2 Gold Tie the Silver Medal was vacated & the next one was Bronze.

Point is , we have these 2 Romanian guys both tied on ATP Ranking #814 with 816 (Not 815) beneath them both & 813 above them. So thank you ATP!
 
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