neutral stance really more power than open?
- Thread starter WNocturne
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fuzz nation
G.O.A.T.
What type of grip and stroke do you use?
OvertheFence
Rookie
wha? wherever i look around here i read your WAY off base posts coupled with your bragging...a total mismatch
Closed stance is a specialty stance and only used for things like putaway volleys where you do a crossover step and some sliced backhand approach shots. if you do hit a shot from a closed stance, it either needs to be a winner or near winner because of the seriously increased recovery time needed to prepare for a next ball
The subject of this thread is power level diffs in a open vs neutral/square stance. Not a closed stance. Not a simple answer because it depends a lot on the ball you are presented with and the grips used and your level of play
In general terms a square/neutral stance gives you more power opportunity as it is easier to get power from weight transfer, but that only works well on balls not high up in the body. Open stance gives more power opportunities because of the chance for a bigger shoulder turn...both have advantages..i encourage people to learn both. As people get better they will be playing better players and will come to need the quicker recovery time of hitting w. an open stance
autumn_leaf
Hall of Fame
do you mean from a closed stance????
Gee, sometimes I wonder if any of you actually play tennis, besides reading about it and watching some vids.
Pros groundie from wide open stances because they can center after the shot quicker. When they need a really strong shot, they usually close their stances... for the reasons I listed.
If you like open stance shots, go for it.
Nobody who knows how to hit with closed stances would agree an open stance is more powerful, stronger, faster.
But as tennis players, we have to center after the shot, so we hit lots of shots openstanced.....just don't go for too much.
Pros groundie from wide open stances because they can center after the shot quicker. When they need a really strong shot, they usually close their stances... for the reasons I listed.
If you like open stance shots, go for it.
Nobody who knows how to hit with closed stances would agree an open stance is more powerful, stronger, faster.
But as tennis players, we have to center after the shot, so we hit lots of shots openstanced.....just don't go for too much.
This is simply not true. The few times when you see pros actually hit a forehand from a closed stance is typically (I would say 90% of the time) when they are hitting a short ball - in other words, when they've had to move forward to the shot, and are by consequence in a closed stance already. At any other time, when they're trying to nail a big shot, they will always hit from an open stance - unless they're Radek Stepanek and using an old-school style.
The open stance forehand has become so prominent not because it's easier to "center yourself," but because it allows you to generate power from uncoiling your body rather than simply using a linear transfer of motion. Your swing path isn't any shorter with an open stance, nor longer with a closed stance, (not sure why you would even think this), and you can use your legs to a far greater degree in the open stance.
Edit: To the OP, what, to your mind (for our reference), is the difference between 'neutral' and 'open' stances?
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I'll agree, what's neutral...
But as to the rest, I suspect you're enamored by the pros hitting mindless groundies back and forth, and YOU, as a lower level player, think they are hitting hard.
Passing shots, most pros try to close stances.
Putaways, most pros try to close stances.
Rocketship serves into their forehands, most pros tend to hit openstance because they don't have TIME to move their feet.
But as I said, let me have my own opinions, and I say, if you can and want to hit openstanced all the time, just GO FOR IT! More power to you.
But as to the rest, I suspect you're enamored by the pros hitting mindless groundies back and forth, and YOU, as a lower level player, think they are hitting hard.
Passing shots, most pros try to close stances.
Putaways, most pros try to close stances.
Rocketship serves into their forehands, most pros tend to hit openstance because they don't have TIME to move their feet.
But as I said, let me have my own opinions, and I say, if you can and want to hit openstanced all the time, just GO FOR IT! More power to you.
The problem is that this doesn't gel with what we actually see from professional players, first of all. Only putaways, as I've mentioned, where the pro has to move into the court to hit the ball and as a result is at that point already in a closed stance, will they typically hit with closed stances. 95% of the time when they hit from the baseline, even if they're going for a passing shot, a huge putaway winner, etc... they'll hit from an open stance. Now, if you can provide video evidence that pros will hit baseline groundies in a closed stance when possible, I'd love to see it. But this hasn't been the case in professional tennis for around 15 years, at an estimate. It's just a completely different mechanic. Closed-stance baseline groundies basically went the way of the 'classical' grips - which makes sense since those two are linked, as are the open stance and more 'modern' grips.
If you believe it, it MUST be true.
Don't you think it's possible, if a pro is putting away a shot, that he has time to employ EITHER a closed or a open stance? And they choose closed almost every time?
Are you a pro? I'm not. I use SW grips, well over like Courier's, hit the ball relatively flat, close my stance for hard shots, hit open stanced to sustain a rally. Now HOW hard I hit to sustain a rally can depend on WHO YOU ARE and what level you actually are.
I've hit with some pretty good 5.5's and aboves lately, and I don't hit puff balls.
Don't you think it's possible, if a pro is putting away a shot, that he has time to employ EITHER a closed or a open stance? And they choose closed almost every time?
Are you a pro? I'm not. I use SW grips, well over like Courier's, hit the ball relatively flat, close my stance for hard shots, hit open stanced to sustain a rally. Now HOW hard I hit to sustain a rally can depend on WHO YOU ARE and what level you actually are.
I've hit with some pretty good 5.5's and aboves lately, and I don't hit puff balls.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
First, let's define the neutral stance,
I am using clock analogy, and I am just going to define these stances. So let's not argut what each and every one of think they are.
It is a stance where your dominant foot is at 6 and your non-dominant foot is around 12.
Closed stance is where your foot is at 6 and your non dominant foot is around 1~3.
On forehand side, you should never hit with closed stance, unless you are on a dead run.
Pros hit with both stances based on the situation.
I am using clock analogy, and I am just going to define these stances. So let's not argut what each and every one of think they are.
It is a stance where your dominant foot is at 6 and your non-dominant foot is around 12.
Closed stance is where your foot is at 6 and your non dominant foot is around 1~3.
On forehand side, you should never hit with closed stance, unless you are on a dead run.
Pros hit with both stances based on the situation.
Credentials....
If you read my posts, you would know I can play some 4.0 level tennis.
If you read my posts, but you play at a lower level, you can think anything you want, because you DON'T KNOW anything yet.
If you read my posts, and you play at a HIGHER level than me, then you know I know exactly what I"m talking about.
Notice the really good players don't say I'm dumb, stupid, wrong, or anything negative.
Notice LOTS of lower than 4.0 players think I talk from my behind hole..
Now all you guys who THINK you're 4.5, but never played tournaments, well, your ranking is SUSPECT. So maybe your opinions are also suspect.
But back to this discussion... most pros hit putaway shots and passing shots with a closed stance, if they have the time. If they have the time, they could DECIDE to hit with open stances, BUT THEY DON'T !!!
If you read my posts, you would know I can play some 4.0 level tennis.
If you read my posts, but you play at a lower level, you can think anything you want, because you DON'T KNOW anything yet.
If you read my posts, and you play at a HIGHER level than me, then you know I know exactly what I"m talking about.
Notice the really good players don't say I'm dumb, stupid, wrong, or anything negative.
Notice LOTS of lower than 4.0 players think I talk from my behind hole..
Now all you guys who THINK you're 4.5, but never played tournaments, well, your ranking is SUSPECT. So maybe your opinions are also suspect.
But back to this discussion... most pros hit putaway shots and passing shots with a closed stance, if they have the time. If they have the time, they could DECIDE to hit with open stances, BUT THEY DON'T !!!
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
Credentials....
If you read my posts, you would know I can play some 4.0 level tennis.
If you read my posts, but you play at a lower level, you can think anything you want, because you DON'T KNOW anything yet.
If you read my posts, and you play at a HIGHER level than me, then you know I know exactly what I"m talking about.
Notice the really good players don't say I'm dumb, stupid, wrong, or anything negative.
Notice LOTS of lower than 4.0 players think I talk from my behind hole..
Now all you guys who THINK you're 4.5, but never played tournaments, well, your ranking is SUSPECT. So maybe your opinions are also suspect.
But back to this discussion... most pros hit putaway shots and passing shots with a closed stance, if they have the time. If they have the time, they could DECIDE to hit with open stances, BUT THEY DON'T !!!
sorry
4.0 are hacks , imo
Just a question on what you said about closed stance and those two specific incidents, isn't the closed stance also used when a player hits a ball near the service line to limit their shot so the ball stays in?
SourStraws
Rookie
Agree 100% with this post.... You also get more rotation with the hips as well... I personally like to use the close stance every chance I get, but sometimes I have to go semi-open.... Closed is the way to go imo
S.S.
Closed is used when a player NEEDS a winning shot, and has time to move his feet. Meaning, if he has time, he always chooses to close his stance.
Open is used during your typical groundie rally, and sometimes, a winning shot ensues with an openstanced shot. That doesn't mean the hitter INTENDS to hit a winner, he just happenned to hit it pretty close to the side and baselines....
Now us.... we have plenty of opportunites to hit closed stances...not the majority, but plenty still...
We choose to hit with whatever stance we like, as it should be. But if you have TIME, and you need one big winner shot, a closed stance gives you more chances of making that shot.
Open is used during your typical groundie rally, and sometimes, a winning shot ensues with an openstanced shot. That doesn't mean the hitter INTENDS to hit a winner, he just happenned to hit it pretty close to the side and baselines....
Now us.... we have plenty of opportunites to hit closed stances...not the majority, but plenty still...
We choose to hit with whatever stance we like, as it should be. But if you have TIME, and you need one big winner shot, a closed stance gives you more chances of making that shot.
It depends on the player and grip. A more conservative grip player like Federer, Agassi, Sampras, Kafelnikov, Becker, etc. actually tend to go into more of a neutral stance when going for a big shot or a winner.
Players like Djokovic, Mathieu, Nadal, etc. tend to hit more from an open stance, even when they are going for winners. However, occasionally they will use the neutral stance, especially when they hit an inside out forehand.
10nistennis
Rookie
My opinion: Just because someone has tons of posts does not mean they are a tennis master and that they know everything about the game of tennis. Hell, this forum has had so many threads and posts, that most people just copy other people's words and advice. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, because most of the time the advice is right, but what I'm trying to say is that you can't judge someone's tennis ability by their post.
Concerning the thread: Most of the time I find that I don't hit in an open stance. I just don't like it that much. In a closed stance/neutral stance, I get more power, control and I feel I can place my shots better. Now some people may love hitting open stance, especially the people with extreme western grips, but me and my semi-western grip likes the closed/neutral stance better.
Concerning the thread: Most of the time I find that I don't hit in an open stance. I just don't like it that much. In a closed stance/neutral stance, I get more power, control and I feel I can place my shots better. Now some people may love hitting open stance, especially the people with extreme western grips, but me and my semi-western grip likes the closed/neutral stance better.
In D Zone
Hall of Fame
I'd say you can hit any power shot - open, closed...... semi open and even forward open stances. Each player has their own strengths - some can hit plenty power using the technique they've learn to master.
Some stance(s) is more preferred on specific situation over the other - you just have to know how to employ which tactic to use.
I think was LeeD was referring to as closed is actually called or described as Forward Stance (see link).
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step3.html
Now for the good stuff:
Here's a video that compares Closed vs the Modern Semi Open stance (Modern).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ho3FRWm9Pw
Again, I favor using both stances !
Some stance(s) is more preferred on specific situation over the other - you just have to know how to employ which tactic to use.
I think was LeeD was referring to as closed is actually called or described as Forward Stance (see link).
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step3.html
Now for the good stuff:
Here's a video that compares Closed vs the Modern Semi Open stance (Modern).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ho3FRWm9Pw
Again, I favor using both stances !
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closed stance for forehand
Aligned, old school stance, modern loopy swing forehands. Just like the Pros use when they have time to set up and hit an easy winner.
wings56
Hall of Fame
Wow...talk about reviving a dead thread
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Master necro bump.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Necro-ing aside, I like the semi open stance the most.
Open enough to return faster balls, but neutral enough to put my body weight to it.
Then, add the hip / core rotation to it and it is a consistently powerful shot.
My issue is that my rotation with the legs and hip is insufficient often so I stay at the semi open stance, which is NOT good.
Neutral stance for approach shots, closed for running forehands.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Open enough to return faster balls, but neutral enough to put my body weight to it.
Then, add the hip / core rotation to it and it is a consistently powerful shot.
My issue is that my rotation with the legs and hip is insufficient often so I stay at the semi open stance, which is NOT good.
Neutral stance for approach shots, closed for running forehands.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TupeloDanger
Professional
Odd thread.
You almost never see a closed stance FH at 5.0 or above any more, except on the dead run. Maybe on the odd approach shot -- though you rarely see forehand approach shots at those levels any more, either. The huge majority are hit semi-open, with the bulk of the rest hit extremely open. A trickle of neutral stances creep in there, situationally. The closed stance FH is a relic of the eastern forehand era.
More closed stances just make no sense with the biomechanically-mandated contact points of the modern grips.
Plenty of them on backhands though!
You almost never see a closed stance FH at 5.0 or above any more, except on the dead run. Maybe on the odd approach shot -- though you rarely see forehand approach shots at those levels any more, either. The huge majority are hit semi-open, with the bulk of the rest hit extremely open. A trickle of neutral stances creep in there, situationally. The closed stance FH is a relic of the eastern forehand era.
More closed stances just make no sense with the biomechanically-mandated contact points of the modern grips.
Plenty of them on backhands though!
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
Go open stance for the majority of your forehands particularly if you are a modern player, neutral stance when you want to flatten out and closed stance in an emergency. I would not teach closed stance to any advanced player for a modern forehand. Only closed stance shots are backhand slice and some volley situations.
Frost5541
Professional
tbh leeD is right, pros want to hit closed stances always but cant because of lack of time and movement.
and as for hitting balls, my coach is really good coach from the US (babatunde abe) and he tells every single person he coaches that pros roll ball, not hit. he has coached many pros as well (la monf to name one) and so he has to be right.
and as for hitting balls, my coach is really good coach from the US (babatunde abe) and he tells every single person he coaches that pros roll ball, not hit. he has coached many pros as well (la monf to name one) and so he has to be right.
anubis
Hall of Fame
No. the stance doesn't give you power, your core rotation gives you power. has nothing to do with the stance.
use an open stance when < 5 feet from the right sideline (or < 8 feet from doubles sideline). Use neutral or closed stance for everything else.
Frost5541
Professional
stance indirectly gives you more power as there can be more core rotation (correct me if i am wrong)
Chotobaka
Hall of Fame
Here we go...
10isMaestro
Semi-Pro
Just to be clear, there are open, neutral and closed stances. A neutral stance is when both feet are line -- you're literally standing sideways. If you bring your hitting foot forward from the position (that is, not towards the net, but actually in front of your chest), your torso and hips starts to face the net a bit more which is why we call such stances "open." A closed stance is when you do the opposite and bring your hitting foot behind. Now, you show your back a bit to the net, hence the name "closed."
To get a visual:
Now, you DON'T hit harder with a closed stance because it is so much turned away from the net that it actually hinders your rotation -- even if you can mitigate this effect by letting your back leg move forward. However, if you get closer to a neutral stance, something interesting can be done: you can actually benefit from a proper amount of hip and upper body rotation while also moving your weight forward... That's when you'll hit some of your hardest shots.
You can hit solid shots from an open stance (something like the last two on the left of this picture) and you could step forward a bit or initiate a jump if you brought your hitting side foot towards the net and used it to step -- but then you loose a bit of hip movement, so you won't hit as hard.
However, if absolutely want to cream the ball on a forehand, nothing beats going airborne and scissoring with your legs -- i.e., take a step towards the net from an open stance with your hitting leg and use it to jump, sending your hitting leg back as your hitting arm goes forward (and the opposite with the other side of the body). This will give maximum power -- but it's hard to coordinate.
To get a visual:
Now, you DON'T hit harder with a closed stance because it is so much turned away from the net that it actually hinders your rotation -- even if you can mitigate this effect by letting your back leg move forward. However, if you get closer to a neutral stance, something interesting can be done: you can actually benefit from a proper amount of hip and upper body rotation while also moving your weight forward... That's when you'll hit some of your hardest shots.
You can hit solid shots from an open stance (something like the last two on the left of this picture) and you could step forward a bit or initiate a jump if you brought your hitting side foot towards the net and used it to step -- but then you loose a bit of hip movement, so you won't hit as hard.
However, if absolutely want to cream the ball on a forehand, nothing beats going airborne and scissoring with your legs -- i.e., take a step towards the net from an open stance with your hitting leg and use it to jump, sending your hitting leg back as your hitting arm goes forward (and the opposite with the other side of the body). This will give maximum power -- but it's hard to coordinate.
10isMaestro
Semi-Pro
Not at all. The man could be completely off with his analysis of professional players. He could even have never bothered to look at high frequency slow motion footage to study their movements. What would be the use if he never shoots and analyze slow motion footage of his own students? The man only need to have an eye for certain things, a good sense of how to design drills to implement changes and give the right visual cues so that someone starts doing things right -- it would be unusual, especially in the US, but not impossible.
It's not because you are successful at something that you can explain your success properly yourself and, most of all, no amount of solid reputation is a sensible justification for believing what someone says -- especially when you get a vague visual cue like "rolling the ball." Contacts last about 0.005 seconds... in that context, what does rolling means? It might WORK as a tip to get people moving properly, but as a description of what happens it is very close to being useless, if not misleading.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
We need to consider carefully what coaches/players really mean with their stance terminology. In 2009 (when this thread was started), and even today, many coaches or players will refer to a neutral stance as a closed stance. They do not make a distinction between a neutral stance and other closed stances. Or they will slip back into the older taxomony of using only 2 classifications of stances: open and closed.
Back in 2006, I was making a push in these forums to make a distinction between a neutral and closed stance. Apparently, not everyone has gotten the memo yet. I have since further refined my classifications to include 4 categories: fully open, semi-open, neutral, closed.
Furthermore, I would say that a stance that is only slightly closed (or slightly open) is still a neutral stance. For such stances, the hips are free to rotate (uncoil). However, for a stance that is substantially closed, the hips are locked (not readily free to uncoil). When using a stance such as this, it becomes necessary to swing the back leg around during the contact/follow-thru phase in order to unlock the hips.
If this is not done, it is even difficult to get sufficient rotation of the upper body for FH strokes (or for 2-handed strokes). If the rotation is insufficient, the player ends up trying to get too much power just from the arm/shoulder. And the swing path might be more "circular" -- it might be more difficult to hit thru the ball. If the swing path is too circular, the swing timing might be more critical for getting the ball to go in the intended direction.
Slightly closed (essentially, neutral) stance is fine for the FH and 2-handed strokes. However, stances that are significantly closed (locking the hips) should not be used routinely. Ok for emergencies (occasional use) but sparingly for other situations. When a closed stance is used and the back leg is swung around, an extra step is needed to recover. When pulled out very wide, this extra recovery step is not efficient and it could be costly for getting to the next ball.
With (fully) open and semi-open stances, the upper body (torso) is coiled more than the hips. This offset is known as a separation angle. The torso/hips offset means that there is some energy stored in the core muscles (they are stretched). This stored energy cna be used to generate more power.
For neutral stances, including slightly closed stances, there might be a small offset (separation angle) if the front foot is angled forward (pointing somewhat toward the net). The offset is increased more by uncoiling the hips before starting the uncoiling of the torso. The lower body uncoils first; and then the upper body. Substantial power can be generated if this sequence is employed.
For stances that are significantly closed, power must be generated in another manner.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Agreed. This applies very well to a neutral stance or a stance that is slightly closed (still a neutral stance in my taxonomy). Not so much with a very closed stance unless the back leg is swung around during the contact/follow-thru phase.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Just to be clear, there are open, neutral and closed stances. A neutral stance is when both feet are line -- you're literally standing sideways. If you bring your hitting foot forward from the position (that is, not towards the net, but actually in front of your chest), your torso and hips starts to face the net a bit more which is why we call such stances "open." A closed stance is when you do the opposite and bring your hitting foot behind. Now, you show your back a bit to the net, hence the name "closed."
To get a visual:
Now, you DON'T hit harder with a closed stance because it is so much turned away from the net that it actually hinders your rotation -- even if you can mitigate this effect by letting your back leg move forward. However, if you get closer to a neutral stance, something interesting can be done: you can actually benefit from a proper amount of hip and upper body rotation while also moving your weight forward... That's when you'll hit some of your hardest shots.
You can hit solid shots from an open stance (something like the last two on the left of this picture) and you could step forward a bit or initiate a jump if you brought your hitting side foot towards the net and used it to step -- but then you loose a bit of hip movement, so you won't hit as hard.
However, if absolutely want to cream the ball on a forehand, nothing beats going airborne and scissoring with your legs -- i.e., take a step towards the net from an open stance with your hitting leg and use it to jump, sending your hitting leg back as your hitting arm goes forward (and the opposite with the other side of the body). This will give maximum power -- but it's hard to coordinate.
Agree, so without reading through all the posts I think that LeeD meant neutral when he said "closed".
Myself I'm a partisan to open and neutral stance FH (don't think I've hit a closed one in years).
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