Obsession about serve mechanics: racket moving on edge

[MisterP]

I’m not saying we shouldn’t work on our strokes from a technical perspective. Obviously we should. But if you can’t stay in a rally for more than two balls against a 3.0 what difference does it make if your racket is perfectly on edge in the drop?

This is the guy your talking about.

Care to elaborate where the ugly technically poor strokes are?

Your talking nonsense, no player of 5.0 or higher has poor technique and fundamentals.

i didn’t say EMH’s strokes were ugly or poor. I just said he has flaws. He’s got a little chicken wing thing in his backhand. But it doesn’t matter. He still plays great tennis with very imperfect strokes.

As to my previous post about 5.0 players with ugly strokes, there is one here at TTW who has videos. I’m not going to name him publicly.

 

[dgold44]

I can say this has been the greatest obsession of mine since I started playing tennis: racket should move on edge all the way until pronation. The racket face bloody opens up to the sky right after the trophy while the racket starts dropping no matter how hard I have tried. Some pro players do the same to a small extent, like Federer, Ferrer but it was a relief when I saw Shapovalov has it as much as I do! Maybe it's not that crucial, maybe the crucial part is when the racket is going up towards contact that matters and obviously there is not a single pro who doesn't do it properly there.

It’s a “ trap door of insanity “ as unless you have an expert coach - the serve is almost impossible to fix on your own

 

[FiReFTW]

I’m not saying we shouldn’t work on our strokes from a technical perspective. Obviously we should. But if you can’t stay in a rally for more than two balls against a 3.0 what difference does it make if your racket is perfectly on edge in the drop?

i didn’t say EMH’s strokes were ugly or poor. I just said he has flaws. He’s got a little chicken wing thing in his backhand. But it doesn’t matter. He still plays great tennis with very imperfect strokes.

As to my previous post about 5.0 players with ugly strokes, there is one here at TTW who has videos. I’m not going to name him publicly.

Yes but even alot of atp pro players have some small flaws tho, but i was talking about big flaws or fundamental issues.
I dont think any 5.0+ players have that, or at the very least its extremely rare and they make it up with some other phenomenal stuff.

When talking about ugly strokes to me that means fundamental problems in the strokes, like arming and pushing the forehand or walter tray serve.

 

[user92626]

I agree that obsessing about such things is nonsense, degree of this degree of that... however the fundamentals and the important things are crucial to develop, because they ultimately make the difference between the ceiling and potential of your strokes.

But with fundamentals I mean important things such as unit turn, using ur kinetic chain properly etc... I don't mean you should have the racquet layed down at a certain part at 16 degrees instead of 14 degrees lol.

You missed my point that any rec player's hobby time is as limited as any other hobbyists and they have chosen to put it all in these isolated strokes.

Plus, there's only so much you can do for "the fundamentals" *on your own*. I kinda maxed out on my strokes relatively early. Any higher would require a good coach's helps.

Perfecting anything to degrees is nonsense. Look at Sitpisa, Nadal, Tiafoe. Their stuff is vastly different from each other which means *there's existing a very large margin of variability* and perfectly fine for players to compete at very advanced levels.

Again, I and many others see tennis more wholely than the FH-, serve-obsessed guys. Besides strokes It's also about running, footwork, tactics, winning, etc..

 

[FiReFTW]

You missed my point that any rec player's hobby time is as limited as any other hobbyists and they have chosen to put it all in these isolated strokes.

Plus, there's only so much you can do for "the fundamentals" *on your own*. I kinda maxed out on my strokes relatively early. Any higher would require a good coach's helps.

Well then we come down to each individual.

How much time and money and coaching they are able/willing to invest, and what their goal is.

 

[Curious]

After six years of struggle I finally fixed it today. Now the racket travels on edge and I'm as happy as Larry!
If anyone else is obsessed about this like me I don't want you to waste 6 years. Let me know and I will tell you how to fix it.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Who is your model ATP server for "edge on"?

 

[Curious]

Who is your model ATP server for "edge on"?

Almost all of them have that.

 

[StringSnapper]

After six years of struggle I finally fixed it today. Now the racket travels on edge and I'm as happy as Larry!
If anyone else is obsessed about this like me I don't want you to waste 6 years. Let me know and I will tell you how to fix it.

gasp!! i saw some two bounces before the fence at the end there.

Howd u fix it?!?

 

[Curious]

gasp!! i saw some two bounces before the fence at the end there.

Howd u fix it?!?

I wasn't trying to serve fast, just focusing on the form.
The fix is supination. Making sure the foreram is supinated at the trophy position. And the best way to achieve it is to have the supinated forearm all the way to the trophy position. A racket held in a supinated hand has to drop on edge!

 

[StringSnapper]

I wasn't trying to serve fast, just focusing on the form.
The fix is supination. Making sure the foreram is supinated at the trophy position. And the best way to achieve it is to have the supinated forearm all the way to the trophy position. A racket held in a supinated hand has to drop on edge!

Supinated, aka raonic style?

BTW i am uploading a new serve video at the moment would love ur opinion on it.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I wasn't trying to serve fast, just focusing on the form.
The fix is supination. Making sure the foreram is supinated at the trophy position. And the best way to achieve it is to have the supinated forearm all the way to the trophy position. A racket held in a supinated hand has to drop on edge!

Is Rafter dropping on edge?

 

[Curious]

Is Rafter dropping on edge?

Oh man. Of course. A perfect example for it.

 

[Curious]

Supinated, aka raonic style?

BTW i am uploading a new serve video at the moment would love ur opinion on it.

Raonic flexes the wrist more than supinating the forearm and also bends the wrist back right after the trophy position. But it's still mostly on edge.

 

[Raul_SJ]

After six years of struggle I finally fixed it today. Now the racket travels on edge and I'm as happy as Larry!
If anyone else is obsessed about this like me I don't want you to waste 6 years. Let me know and I will tell you how to fix it.

1. I think you said you were able to shadow "on edge" correctly but not on real serve. What was the key to finally bridge from shadow?

2. At trophy position, just before racquet starts to drop, some pros have strings facing towards the net; others have strings facing towards side fence. Is one of these positions more likely to promote "edge on" drop?

 

[Curious]

1. I think you said you were able to shadow "on edge" correctly but not on real serve. What was the key to finally bridge from shadow?

2. At trophy position, just before racquet starts to drop, some pros have strings facing towards the net; others have strings facing towards side fence. Is one of these positions more likely to promote "edge on" drop?

The answer to your first question is that I deliberately tried to maintain the supination with the ball as well.

Racket face pointing to the net obviously means good supination.

 

[Raul_SJ]

The answer to your first question is that I deliberately tried to maintain the supination with the ball as well.

Racket face pointing to the net obviously means good supination.

Waiter's Tray error can happen on the way down as well as on the way up. Obviously Shapovalov recovers from opening up slightly on the way down, and correctly approaches "edge on" on the way up -- which is the important thing.

But I suspect it is preferable to stay edge on during the drop; less likely to lead to Waiter's Tray on the way up.

 

[J011yroger]

Serve is my best shot (in terms of form) if you haven't already seen it.

Imagine if you slowed down and relaxed your arm!

J

 

[Curious]

Imagine if you slowed down and relaxed your arm!

J

Wouldn’t that be awesome?

 

[morten]

I have the opposite problem. I am so on edge that i have to think about opening it up and i end up pushing the racket/ball with no backdrop

 

[mad dog1]

I have the opposite problem. I am so on edge that i have to think about opening it up and i end up pushing the racket/ball with no backdrop

What you described sounds more like waiter’s tray.

 

[Curious]

What you described sounds more like waiter’s tray.

I thought he was joking as in he feels so 'on edge' like nervous...

 

[mad dog1]

I thought he was joking as in he feels so 'on edge' like nervous...

 

[morten]

No, seriously, imagine a Raonic/Edberg serve grip and motion

 

[morten]

I sort og turn the wrist/supinate as the racket approach the ball so i have to force the racket to turn to hit the strings. A pro thought me something wrong when i was 14... and now at 45 i have struggled with this since 14

 

[Curious]

I sort og turn the wrist/supinate as the racket approach the ball so i have to force the racket to turn to hit the strings. A pro thought me something wrong when i was 14... and now at 45 i have struggled with this since 14

I suspect a confusion there. That turning is supposed to be pronation.

 

[morten]

Before the pronation.. I force to supinate before i pronate unnaturally

 

[IowaGuy]

Before the pronation.. I force to supinate before i pronate unnaturally

Pronation should definitely be natural, not "unnatural" or forced...

 

[morten]

Yes. But how. Very annoying as i am very flexible and can throw a ball really far. Ny serve is like a 2.5 ntpr. The rest close to 5.0 no kidding

 

[IowaGuy]

Yes. But how. Very annoying as i am very flexible and can throw a ball really far. Ny serve is like a 2.5 ntpr. The rest close to 5.0 no kidding

When you throw a baseball or football, pronation should occur naturally.

Do you pronate naturally when you throw a ball?

 

[philosoup]

I have the opposite problem. I am so on edge that i have to think about opening it up and i end up pushing the racket/ball with no backdrop

Sort of having the same impression, but don't know why no backdrop. The two things are not so much connected.

The opening up is only at the very short moment contacting the ball when the ball crosses the racquet head trajectory.

 

[Curious]

Supination while the racket is dropping makes the racket move on edge but after that and during the throwing phase the forearm and the wrist should be in neutral ie not supinated nor pronated, then closer to contact you pronate.

 

[morten]

When you throw a baseball or football, pronation should occur naturally.

Do you pronate naturally when you throw a ball?

Yes. But i really do not cokk the wrist backwards at all during the backdrop. That may have something to do with it...

 

[aimr75]

I wasn't trying to serve fast, just focusing on the form.
The fix is supination. Making sure the foreram is supinated at the trophy position. And the best way to achieve it is to have the supinated forearm all the way to the trophy position. A racket held in a supinated hand has to drop on edge!

Other than achieving this, has this improved anything for you? Do you feel anything different or is there any marked improvement in the stroke as a result?

 

[morten]

I need a visual aid...

 

[Curious]

Other than achieving this, has this improved anything for you? Do you feel anything different or is there any marked improvement in the stroke as a result?

Not at this stage to be honest. But I fixed it yesterday and practiced only for 30 min. Focusing on the form, I didn't try to hit hard. Will let you know how I go after a few more sessions.

 

[morten]

What i do is get in the trophy position, then supinate then pronate. Without backdrop, or hardly any. It's a leading push not a serve..

 

[IowaGuy]

What i do is get in the trophy position, then supinate then pronate. Without backdrop, or hardly any. It's a leading push not a serve..

Sounds like you might want to get a good coach and re-work your serve mechanics...

 

[Curious]

What i do is get in the trophy position, then supinate then pronate. Without backdrop, or hardly any. It's a leading push not a serve..

So your level otherwise is like 5.0. I'm deducting the TTW delusional factor and you should be at least a 4.0! And having a 2.5 serve makes me even more curious now. Can we see it?

 

[morten]

Ok a 3.0 serve maybe then..

 

[morten]

But seriously do you guys kokk the wrist backwards on the backdrop or before the backdrop?

 

[Curious]

But seriously do you guys kokk the wrist backwards on the backdrop or before the backdrop?

Some kokk like Federer and Raonic, some don't at all keeping it in neutral like Thiem for example. The nonkokking ones move the racket 100% on edge, the others open up a bit.

 

[morten]

I mean after the trophy position...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Serve is my best shot (in terms of form) if you haven't already seen it.

this vid reminded me of this thread...

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[Curious]

this vid reminded me of this thread...

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Yes, I like that video. Note that when you do it properly as he describes, the racket moves on edge.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

this vid reminded me of this thread...

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This totally shows what I was doing (wrong) although the racquet always came up on edge, I was going too fast before trophy and not bending elbow much. Since I slowed down and do more of the right to left mentioned serve is more effortless but my speed isn't up yet

 

[Raul_SJ]

this vid reminded me of this thread...

That Florian video advises going right to left, as opposed to Federer going towards the back fence and then bending his elbow...

OP seems to be doing it correctly, going right to left. Assuming he was not going right to left before, more like Federer? And that was one of the keys to being "on edge" for drop?

 

[Curious]

That Florian video advises going right to left, as opposed to Federer going towards the back fence and then bending his elbow...

OP seems to be doing it correctly, going right to left. Assuming he was not going right to left before, more like Federer? And that was one of the keys to being "on edge" for drop?

I’m not moving the racket on edge in that video. Supination at the trophy position fixed the “not on edge issue” for me.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I’m not moving the racket on edge in that video. Supination at the trophy position fixed the “not on edge issue” for me.

You are correct. I missed that. Not on edge there... So still not clear on how the Florian "move right to left" advice relates to your serve and on edge quest?

 

[aimr75]

Not at this stage to be honest. But I fixed it yesterday and practiced only for 30 min. Focusing on the form, I didn't try to hit hard. Will let you know how I go after a few more sessions.

I wondered whether I served on edge as you described. I took somebody vid and seems I do this.