RG: Wawrinka 15 Or Soderling/ Del Potro 09

[JohanLiebert]

Rate the three in terms of the level, they displayed.

Soderling was the only one who proved, that Nadal was mortal. He showcased greater mental strength, in getting the deed done.

Stan came down from a set, and bombarded Djokovic with a flurry of winners.

Del Potro pushed Federer to the very extreme.

Your opinion?

 

[6august]

Soderling 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't take a set of Rafa 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't bring Fed 09 to the 5th set.

 

[Deleted member 410229]

Soderling 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't take a set of Rafa 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't bring Fed 09 to the 5th set.

Seems accurate

 

[Anaconda]

Soderling 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't take a set of Rafa 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't bring Fed 09 to the 5th set.

So a peak Wawrinka wouldn't take Federer to a fifth set, but a past prime Haas could? Good to know!

Seems accurate

Maybe if you have the mind of a dodo.

 

[TheMusicLover]

Wawrinka 2015 and it isn't even close.

 

[abmk]

Wawrinka 2015 and it isn't even close.

absolutely disagree ..both soderling and del potro in RG 09 were better (4R match and SF match respectively )

 

[TheMusicLover]

absolutely disagree ..both soderling and del potro in RG 09 were better (4R match and SF match respectively )

It's ok.

 

[abmk]

It's ok.

exactly what I was saying.

Soderling was facing a monster in the clay GOAT nadal in his prime and beat him
Del potro was facing a determined GOAT in federer and nearly beat him ( having no BPs faced vs him until the beginning of the 4th set )
Stan faced a passive djokovic and beat him.

both soderling and delpo were better. stan wasn't better, let alone it not being close wrt to the other 2. its ok.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Soderling 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't take a set of Rafa 09.

Wawa 15 wouldn't bring Fed 09 to the 5th set.

Problematic logic here. The transitive property doesn't apply in tennis. Delpo 2009 may have taken Fed to 5 but Soderling 2009 lost to him in straight sets! Soderling 2010 ousted Fed but lost to Nadal in straights. So was Soderling 2010 weaker or Nadal simply stronger? See how thorny these issues get?

 

[Nadalgaenger]

exactly what I was saying.

Soderling was facing a monster in the clay GOAT nadal in his prime and beat him
Del potro was facing a determined GOAT in federer and nearly beat him ( having no BPs faced vs him until the beginning of the 4th set )
Stan faced a passive djokovic and beat him.

both soderling and delpo were better. stan wasn't better, let alone it not being close wrt to the other 2. its ok.

Yet I would wager that Djokovic 2015 could have handled anything Soderling or Delpo could throw at him.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Let's just say this: of the three, Soderling did the most impressive thing on a given day.

 

[abmk]

Yet I would wager that Djokovic 2015 could have handled anything Soderling or Delpo could throw at him.

nope, he wouldn't have.

 

[InsideOut900]

Soderling in the 4th round form might be the best opponent Nadal faced in RG,better than anything Fed/Djokovic shown against him.Have to go with him.

DelPotro vs. Wawrinka is debatable,I would go with Stan because he was firing missiles of both wings,Del Potro's backhand could have been taken advantage of.
Stan's level in the 2nd and 3rd set was just wow,maybe on par with Soderling,but he was a bit shanky in the 1st and 4th

 

[MichaelNadal]

Wawrinka 2015 and it isn't even close.

Couldn't agree more

 

[mattosgrant]

I would have to think about it all some. Soderling round of 16 vs Nadal was probably the best match/performance of all but he didnt play at that level the entire event, and certainly was nowhere near it the match that really mattered (the final).

The sad thing is it is a foregone conclusion all Federer fans will say Soderling/Del Potro and all Djokovic fans wiill say Wawrinka since people are always thinking how such and such connects with their own agendas as stupid as that is.

 

[mattosgrant]

Problematic logic here. The transitive property doesn't apply in tennis. Delpo 2009 may have taken Fed to 5 but Soderling 2009 lost to him in straight sets! Soderling 2010 ousted Fed but lost to Nadal in straights. So was Soderling 2010 weaker or Nadal simply stronger? See how thorny these issues get?

Soderling didnt play that well in the finals either time, particularly 2009, and Nadal was quite a bit stronger in 2010 than 09. Federer also played one of his best matches on clay ever in the 2009 RG final.

 

[abmk]

Del Potro's backhand could have been taken advantage of.

no, it couldn't, not in that match, not at RG or USO 09 ..

it wasn't the winner machine that stan's BH is obviously, but it was solid and he could be very offensive with it as well, as he showed in many of the matches in 09 ( see the miami 09 match vs nadal where he simply over-powered nadal's FH with it, then obviously the RG & USO matches vs federer, the USO match vs nadal etc ...)

 

[Djokovic2011]

absolutely disagree ..both soderling and del potro in RG 09 were better (4R match and SF match respectively )

And we all know why.

 

[abmk]

And we all know why.

yes, because soderling did what no one else did - beat prime nadal at RG in a stunning performance.

and del potro's stats in RG 09 SF are better vs a federer playing better than djokovic did in RG 15 final ..

in any case, its absolute nonsense to say that delpo/soderling's performance wasn't close to stan's.

 

[Djokovic2011]

nope, he wouldn't have.

Haha, you're so predictable abmk.  I swear it would kill you to ever admit that Djokovic could also beat a player that gave your almighty hero such a hard time in his prime. It never ceases to amaze me how much you hate giving Novak even the slightest bit of credit for anything. Wow. Just wow.

 

[mattosgrant]

I would say in their best individual match Soderling (round of 16 vs Nadal) >= Wawrinka (final vs Djoker) > Del Potro (semis vs Fed)
For the overall tournaments Wawrinka > Del Potro = Soderling

 

[abmk]

Haha, you're so predictable abmk.  I swear it would kill you to ever admit that Djokovic could also beat a player that gave your almighty hero such a hard time in his prime. It never ceases to amaze me how much you hate giving Novak even the slightest bit of credit. Wow. Just wow.

umm, not in the form he displayed in the final of RG 15. If he played at his best, yes, he could've beat delpo. But if he did that, he could've beat stan as well. But he didn't.

Maybe its about time you opened your eyes to reality. I'm nowhere near biased against djokovic as you think me to be .

 

[Djokovic2011]

yes, because soderling did what no one else did - beat prime nadal at RG in a stunning performance.

and del potro's stats in RG 09 SF are better vs a federer playing better than djokovic did in RG 15 final ..

in any case, its absolute nonsense to say that delpo/soderling's performance wasn't close to stan's.

It is OK.

 

[mattosgrant]

Haha, you're so predictable abmk.  I swear it would kill you to ever admit that Djokovic could also beat a player that gave your almighty hero such a hard time in his prime. It never ceases to amaze me how much you hate giving Novak even the slightest bit of credit for anything. Wow. Just wow.

Given Novak's overall history vs Del Potro it is pretty much a no brainer that Djokovic of 2015 would beat the 2009 Del Potro at RG. Pretty unlikely it would go 5 sets either (their match at Wimbledon 2013 went 5, but Djokovic of his absolute peak years in 2011 and 2015 probably wouldnt go the distance vs DP given his history against him and the awful match up for DP).

 

[MichaelNadal]

Le Sod had tendonitis for a tag team partner in 09 which is why I rate Stan higher.

 

[abmk]

Given Novak's overall history vs Del Potro it is pretty much a no brainer that Djokovic of 2015 would beat the 2009 Del Potro at RG. Pretty unlikely it would go 5 sets either (their match at Wimbledon 2013 went 5, but Djokovic of his absolute peak years in 2011 and 2015 probably wouldnt go the distance vs DP given his history against him and the awful match up for DP).

uh, federer at that time was a worse matchup for delpo than djokovic is ( federer was up 5-0 vs him, not losing a set, including the double bagel in Australia and a tennis lesson in madrid - especially drop shots )

djokovic in wim 13 played very well in the SF - he wasn't that much better in wim 11 or wim 15 in general

delpo in RG 11 was out-hitting djokovic in their RG encounter in set 2 and seemed to getting the momentum, but they had to stop the match due to darkness . djokovic re-grouped the next day and won it in 4. Overall delpo was nowhere near his 09 RG form in this match.

federer is 15-5 vs delpo and djokovic is 11-3 - not much of a difference .....I don't see how the djokovic matchup is so 'awful' for del potro, while the federer one is not ...

just a reminder than stan is 4-21 vs djokovic and before you bring up their slam matches going the distance, well, the only slam match where delpo played close to his best vs djokovic was the wim 13 SF encounter and that went to 5.

 

[abmk]

It is OK.

that's what I am saying.

Federer = 1 RG
Djokovic = 0 RG

Its ok.

 

[abmk]

Le Sod had tendonitis for a tag team partner in 09 which is why I rate Stan higher.

uhh, please. the only thing injured with Rafa in RG 09 was his pride.

 

[Djokovic2011]

uh, federer at that time was a worse matchup for delpo than djokovic is ( federer was up 5-0 vs him, not losing a set, including the double bagel in Australia and a tennis lesson in madrid - especially drop shots )

djokovic in wim 13 played very well in the SF - he wasn't that much better in wim 11 or wim 15 in general

delpo in RG 11 was out-hitting djokovic in their RG encounter in set 2 and seemed to getting the momentum, but they had to stop the match due to darkness . djokovic re-grouped the next day and won it in 4. Overall delpo was nowhere near his 09 RG form in this match.

federer is 15-5 vs delpo and djokovic is 11-3 - not much of a difference .....I don't see how the djokovic matchup is so 'awful' for del potro, while the federer one is not ...

just a reminder than stan is 4-21 vs djokovic and before you bring up their slam matches going the distance, well, the only slam match where delpo played close to his best vs djokovic was the wim 13 SF encounter and that went to 5.

Not sure what point you're trying to make abmk. Are you saying that Del Potro at his very best would beat Djokovic at his very best at RG?

 

[abmk]

Not sure what point you're trying to make abmk. Are you saying that Del Potro at his very best would beat Djokovic at his very best at RG?

my points were very clear :

a) disproving the so called 'awful' matchup b/w djoko-delpo or atleast the exaggeration of it.
b) showing that if delpo could push federer of RG 09 SF to 5 ( who was in better form than djokovic in RG 15 final ) and was just as bad, if not worse matchup for delpo as djokovic ,he could push djokovic at his best as well ( as well as beat djokovic who wasn't at his best in RG 15 final )

As far as the bold part is concerned, I already answered it before in this very thread ..

umm, not in the form he displayed in the final of RG 15. If he played at his best, yes, he could've beat delpo. But if he did that, he could've beat stan as well. But he didn't.

Maybe its about time you opened your eyes to reality. I'm nowhere near biased against djokovic as you think me to be .

 

[Rosstour]

Soderling literally pulled off the impossible, and altered the course of tennis history.

Without that upset, Rafa wins 10 straight RGs and has 15 Slams, and Federer would be now stuck on 16 without the career Grand Slam.

Not only that but Soderling continued to play well and carved out a nice little resurgence that took his image and profile to new heights. It was a great story all around.

 

[abmk]

Just to add on to what I said , @mattosgrant , I think the RG 15 final b/w djokovic-delpo would be somewhat and I repeat somewhat similar to the RG 10 QF b/w fed-soderling ....that was soderling's only win over federer and delpo certainly matches up much better vs djokovic than soderling did vs federer.

 

[mattosgrant]

Not sure what point you're trying to make abmk. Are you saying that Del Potro at his very best would beat Djokovic at his very best at RG?

She/he would likely believe that (as absurd as it is).

 

[mattosgrant]

Soderling literally pulled off the impossible, and altered the course of tennis history.

Without that upset, Rafa wins 10 straight RGs and has 15 Slams, and Federer would be now stuck on 16 without the career Grand Slam.

Not only that but Soderling continued to play well and carved out a nice little resurgence that took his image and profile to new heights. It was a great story all around.

You are right, and those are the kind of players we miss today. The game sorely misses Soderling, Del Potro, Davydenko, Nalbandian types making up the second tier.

I think that loss really shook Rafa's momentum in a big way. It might be even more extreme than 16 vs 15 with Federer having no RG. I am not sure Rafa doesnt possibly play and possibly win the upcoming Wimbledon now for instance, particularly if you are one of those (like me) who doesnt believe he was that injured (granted I am not a Nadal fan, and might give him more benefit of really being badly injured if I were).

I started a thread about this already but that was truly the worst year ever for Rafa to lose RG. It had to happen at some point, but boy Soderling really pricked Nadal at the worst time. At the very least he would have 3 consecutive years as the games best player, whereas now he doesnt even have 2 consecutive, and some dont even credit him as having an era at all.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I would say Soderling and Del Potro in 09. Wawrinka was awesome too but I give it to Del Potro and Soderling by a small margin. How Federer survived Del Potro that day I dont know.

 

[abmk]

I would say Soderling and Del Potro in 09. Wawrinka was awesome too but I give it to Del Potro and Soderling by a small margin. How Federer survived Del Potro that day I dont know.

finally ! a voice of reason ......

@ the bold part, precisely ...

 

[abmk]

She/he would likely believe that (as absurd as it is).

I already said otherwise. But hey continue to post with your own misconceptions about me without actually reading what I wrote ...

 

[InsideOut900]

no, it couldn't, not in that match, not at RG or USO 09 ..

it wasn't the winner machine that stan's BH is obviously, but it was solid and he could be very offensive with it as well, as he showed in many of the matches in 09 ( see the miami 09 match vs nadal where he simply over-powered nadal's FH with it, then obviously the RG & USO matches vs federer, the USO match vs nadal etc ...)

Exactly because he didn't produce all those crazy
winners. You think that Djokovic was passive(which he did actually),but no matter where he was hitting,the
ball was coming back faster. A FH+BH combo can prove more valuable than a crazy forehand in this situation,because Stan was dominating 10-20 shots rallies,he wasn't going for the broke right from the start.

Nobody with a "solid shot" beats Djokovic this days,it is a reason why only certain players do damage to him.Del Potro had a crazy FH that day,but the BH will finally betray him if the rally becomes long for we know what reason.

 

[abmk]

I started a thread about this already but that was truly the worst year ever for Rafa to lose RG. It had to happen at some point, but boy Soderling really pricked Nadal at the worst time. At the very least he would have 3 consecutive years as the games best player, whereas now he doesnt even have 2 consecutive, and some dont even credit him as having an era at all.

2008 and 2012 would be just as bad, it not worse.

2008 - he wasn't losing in that form, but lets say he lost somehow. He wouldn't have won wimbledon either .....

2012 - he would've lost 4 in a row vs djokovic at majors - including at his bastion - at RG.

 

[metsman]

recency bias at work here...Fed and Nadal were tougher opponents than the version of Djokovic that showed up for the 15 RG final

I would go 09 4R Soderling>10 QF Soderling = 15 F Wawrinka=09 SF Delpo>09 F Soderling>10 F Soderling.

Obviously Wawrinka gets the overall nod because he was able to keep up his form against 3 good quality opponents (although none of them were playing particularly well) whereas Delpo faded in the 5th and Soderling was ok in the finals.

 

[abmk]

Exactly because he didn't produce all those crazy
winners. You think that Djokovic was passive(which he did actually),but no matter where he was hitting,the
ball was coming back faster. A FH+BH combo can prove more valuable than a crazy forehand in this situation,because Stan was dominating 10-20 shots rallies,he wasn't going for the broke right from the start.

Nobody with a "solid shot" beats Djokovic this days,it is a reason why only certain players do damage to him.Del Potro had a crazy FH that day,but the BH will finally betray him if the rally becomes long for we know what reason.

But delpo's BH wasn't just a solid BH ala ferrer. He could be and was very offensive with it in the RG 09 SF as well - just not as good as Stan. It was the FH-BH combo of delpo as well, not just the FH ....

 

[MichaelNadal]

uhh, please. the only thing injured with Rafa in RG 09 was his pride.

Yeah I know it would make you wet to believe that, but he was moving like hot **** on a platter that day. It still took a great performance to beat him, yes, but the last 2 sets in particular you could see it. It's still 5x more meaningful than Ultron's win though

 

[sportsfan1]

I rate Wawa 2015 RG as the highest since he completely outclassed a fit and ready Djoker. Sod 2009 RG was a significant result, but there was some talk of Nadal being unfit.
Fed had shown susceptibility to heavy hitting. He lost to Berdych less than a year later at Wim 2010, and had been pushed by Sod himself at US 2009 in the 3rd and 4th sets with scores of 67 76.

 

[InsideOut900]

But delpo's BH wasn't just a solid BH ala ferrer. He could be and was very offensive with it in the RG 09 SF as well - just not as good as Stan. It was the FH-BH combo of delpo as well, not just the FH ....

When I compared Del Potro with Stan I set the bar very high,because we all know how damn good Stan was that day. Watching highlights of the first 2 sets for the sake of the argument and I realized how much Fed helped Del Potro with his holds.Weak cheaped return that landed short a lot of times. Really I wasn't that impressed seeing the highlights a second time.Some stats of the 09 SF would help me at this point,otherwise I find no reason to continue the debate,we won't ever agree on it.

 

[mattosgrant]

Del Potro really ran out of gas in the 4th and 5th sets too. There was a significant drop off in his level which is why he lost. With Wawrinka and Soderling there was no drop off from start to finish.

 

[NatF]

Given Novak's overall history vs Del Potro it is pretty much a no brainer that Djokovic of 2015 would beat the 2009 Del Potro at RG. Pretty unlikely it would go 5 sets either (their match at Wimbledon 2013 went 5, but Djokovic of his absolute peak years in 2011 and 2015 probably wouldnt go the distance vs DP given his history against him and the awful match up for DP).

Murray took Djokovic to a fifth set lol. Del Potro could definitely take that Djokovic to a fifth and possibly beat him. I say could because who knows what might have really happened but Federer in the last couple of rounds at the FO in 2009 was clearly better than Djokovic at the same point in 2015 I would say.

 

[mattosgrant]

Murray took Djokovic to a fifth set lol. Del Potro could definitely take that Djokovic to a fifth and possibly beat him. I say could because who knows what might have really happened but Federer in the last couple of rounds at the FO in 2009 was clearly better than Djokovic at the same point in 2015 I would say.

Djokovic was never in danger of winning that match IMO, despite it going 5. It was something similar to the Haas-Federer R16 4 setter at the Australian Open. Also it is obvious Del Potro is a better clay courter than Murray. He doesnt even have a Masters final on the surface. Murray now has several RG semis, a Masters title, etc.. I know Del Potro only had a few years of good tennis, and about 1 year of true peak tennis but still. Most of all though Djokovic is just an awful match up for DP. DP far prefers playing Fedal to Djokovic, and Djokovic likes playing DP (even so called peak DP) the most of all the top players he could face. Not that Murray is a nightmare for Djokovic, but he is more competitive generally than DP is (in fact approximate to their relative abilities he does quite well against him career wise).

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Um, yes, Wawrinka was better in RG 2015 because he won the damn thing. Rest is all usual pointless and needlessly acrimonious hypothesizing that doesn't actually establish anything (except in each one's own worldview, that is).

 

[I am the Greatest!]

This is tough, basically since Soderling defeated Nadal in 2009 and Del Potro stretched Federer to a 5th set - both lost to Federer that tournament, and Wawa won against Novak in 2015.

I would say Soderling, 2009, for THAT Rafa match only. Wawrinka of 2015 would have never beaten Rafa of 2009: he had a chance, like Soderling, but never done it, so I'll stick to my opinion. The only downside there is that he lost against Federer in the finals, compared to Wawa who was able to succeed and lift the trophy. But then, I don't think Wawa of 2015 would have also beaten Federer that tournament regardless if Federer was playing subpar.

 

[mattosgrant]

Rest is all usual pointless and needlessly acrimonious hypothesizing that doesn't actually establish anything (except in each one's own worldview, that is).

Which this forum loves.