Roddick Won a Set Against Federer while playing the worst match of the tournament

BiGGieStuFF

Hall of Fame
David L said:
It seems that people do not pay attention when watching tennis matches. The reason why Roddick did not look as good as he did against Hewitt or his service percentage was not as good against Federer as against other players, is because Federer applies the kind of pressure that undermines your game and forces you to go for more. Simple. It's really not that complicated to understand this concept. Federer hits a heavier ball that is harder to control, he dominates his opponents service games if they take the slightest amount off the pace. Opponents are under continuous pressure to press, themselves, or be overrun. Hewitt cannot put pressure on Roddick the way Federer can, it is silly to compare the two matches. Davydenko explains the feeling after his semi-final match. When he says 'fast', he means Federer hits the ball hard and it travels very quickly. Basically he says Federer is hitting the ball differently to everyone else.

Regarding the final, Roddick played very well. The best I have seen him play. It is easy to look good against an opponent who is inferior. Roddick actually looked good, albeit second best, against a superior player.

Andy served about 70% in the 2nd set he won so he wasn't feeling the pressure then. He put the pressure on himself because he felt he HAD to do more to win the points in the 3rd. If he had just kept his 1st serve percentage up he would have been better off. He didn't keep his cool and that's how he lost the 3rd set. He did well to fight off as many breakpoints as he did with all those 2nd serves he put up there, but the bottom line is IF he kept his cool and stuck to the gameplan, which Nadal does pretty darn well against Fed, he had a chance to go to a tiebreak with Fed AT least and a good chance to take the set.

Andy is capable of giving Fed a good fight if he stays loose like he did in the 2nd but too loose and you're a goose, but too tight and good night.

Fed makes you play that tightrope psychologically which is part of the game but if Roddick doesn't panic and goes for more when he doesn't need to, then the match would have been closer. Roddick was right in saying "less is more" but unfortunately he didn't execute it in the end.
 
Every time I am on a thread and I see the name "Rabbit" pop up more then once I say thank god for the ignore function and I all I get is a line of nothing rather then god knows what. :)

To read people talking as if Roddick could have done more makes me laugh a bit. As for the match anytime he takes a set from Federer it is better then he is expected to do. The next time Roddick and Federer play you will see a straight setter, especialy if it is not at the U.S Open. Roddick will be on his 5th coach in 5 years within a year as well.
 

BiGGieStuFF

Hall of Fame
justineheninhoogenbandfan said:
Every time I am on a thread and I see the name "Rabbit" pop up more then once I say thank god for the ignore function and I all I get is a line of nothing rather then a sermon of god knows what. :)

To read people talking as if Roddick could have done more makes me laugh, anytime he takes a set from Federer it is better then he is expected to do. The next time Roddick and Federer play you will see a straight setter, especialy if it is not at the U.S Open. Roddick will be on his 5th coach in 5 years within a year as well.

He didn't need to do more, he needed to do less. He was going for too much and panicking and coming in when the approach shot wasn't good. He went for too much on his serve in the 3rd.

I'm not saying he can beat Fed but if he had just held back a little on the 1st serve and kept it in and was a tad bit more patient it would have been a bit more competitive. 2nd set and 3rd set were great but he lost it in his last 2 service games and you could see him pressing after he didn't get the break on Fed at 0-40.
 
David L said:
It seems that people do not pay attention when watching tennis matches. The reason why Roddick did not look as good as he did against Hewitt or his service percentage was not as good against Federer as against other players, is because Federer applies the kind of pressure that undermines your game and forces you to go for more. Simple. It's really not that complicated to understand this concept. Federer hits a heavier ball that is harder to control, he dominates his opponents service games if they take the slightest amount off the pace. Opponents are under continuous pressure to press, themselves, or be overrun. Hewitt cannot put pressure on Roddick the way Federer can, it is silly to compare the two matches. Davydenko explains the feeling after his semi-final match. When he says 'fast', he means Federer hits the ball hard and it travels very quickly. Basically he says Federer is hitting the ball differently to everyone else.

Regarding the final, Roddick played very well. The best I have seen him play. It is easy to look good against an opponent who is inferior. Roddick actually looked good, albeit second best, against a superior player.

Well said. I agree with everything you said. I also agree comparing a matchup with Hewitt to Federer, especialy at this point in time is ridiculous.
 
BiGGieStuFF said:
He didn't need to do more, he needed to do less. He was going for too much and panicking and coming in when the approach shot wasn't good. He went for too much on his serve in the 3rd.

I'm not saying he can beat Fed but if he had just held back a little on the 1st serve and kept it in and was a tad bit more patient it would have been a bit more competitive. 2nd set and 3rd set were great but he lost it in his last 2 service games and you could see him pressing after he didn't get the break on Fed at 0-40.

Those are good points, but how much did Roger impact those factors?

Might he have been trying to press on his first serve though since he was not winning as many free points on the first serve as in other matches(which is usual when he plays Roger)? If so wouldnt that be understandable?

Also since he was losing the majority of the baseline rallies, that could be a reason he was pressing to come in too early on some points as well.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Kaptain Karl said:
How does Federer "make" Andy miss more first serves than he did in the whole tourney? (Psychological pressure can be part of it, but I've not seen Andy miss so many serves this whole US Open Series.)

Andy's serve was not ON. Andy's serve is the primary "equalizer" when playing Roger. No equalizer ... not much of a chance....

Because Federer returns Roddick's serve better than anyone else in the world. That makes Roddick go for even more pace and/or spin to try and ace Federer or at least force a service winner. As everyone knows, going for more on your serve will cause anyone to miss their serve more. Or else everyone would just go all out on every single serve.

I actually thought Roddick served pretty well. He only had one double fault in a 4 set match, averaged 126 mph on first serves, and hit one at 142mph. And despite playing Federer, who can read his serves better than anyone, he still hit 7 aces and had countless other service winners.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
David L said:
It seems that people do not pay attention when watching tennis matches.
I found this an ironic opening. Especially when you later claimed....
Regarding the final, Roddick played very well. The best I have seen him play.
"It seems that people do not pay attention when watching tennis matches." You must not have watched Roddick play very often. He played better -- longer -- against Hewitt ... and against Yhouzny (sp?).

An interview with: NIKOLAY DAVYDENKO
That was supremely painful. I don't know how you can confidently claim to know *what* Davydenko meant by lots of the things he said.

Navratilova commented that Roger's pace and spin is so superior to the other men, that it's startling. I thought this was glaringly obvious in the 1st and 4th sets against Andy. (In the first, Andy seemed stiff and not warmed up yet. But in the fourth?) Wow! To be able to ... dictate ... the pace like that against a very strong opponent??!!! That was amazing.
_____________

Rabbit said:
And, for the love of God, get Roddick to stop approaching cross court!
My wife was laughing at my behavior. I was yelling at the TV, "No!!! Approach up the line, you NUT!" (I expected her to point out the obvious ... that Andy could not hear me....)

KK - you must certainly agree that Federer was only playing at 88% of his full capacity in the first set, 62% in the second, 77% in the third and 91.3% in the fourth. I mean really, it couldn't be clearer!
Umm.... "Sure."

- KK
 

BiGGieStuFF

Hall of Fame
BreakPoint said:
Because Federer returns Roddick's serve better than anyone else in the world. That makes Roddick go for even more pace and/or spin to try and ace Federer or at least force a service winner. As everyone knows, going for more on your serve will cause anyone to miss their serve more. Or else everyone would just go all out on every single serve.

I actually thought Roddick served pretty well. He only had one double fault in a 4 set match, averaged 126 mph on first serves, and hit one at 142mph. And despite playing Federer, who can read his serves better than anyone, he still hit 7 aces and had countless other service winners.
yeah it's not bad but it's not how he served throughout the tournament, where he was regularly getting 70% plus in. And that's not out of the ordinary for him to get that high, that's usually how he serves just about. He served that poorly in the 1st and the 4th and that's about all she wrote. He needs to take a page from Sampras book and be content with going to a tiebreak each set where usually the big server has the advantage.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Kaptain Karl said:
You must not have watched Roddick play very often. He played better -- longer -- against Hewitt ... and against Yhouzny (sp?).

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean by "longer"? Roddick's match against Hewitt was only 3 sets and 113 minutes long, whereas his match against Federer was 4 sets and 147 minutes long.
 

NoBadMojo

G.O.A.T.
here are the stats which are VERY revealin I think
<snip>
Federer(SUI) Roddick(USA)

1st Serve % 63 of 103 = 61 % 81 of 122 = 66 %

Aces 17 7

Double Faults 0 1

Unforced Errors 19 23

Winning % on 1st Serve 53 of 63 = 84 % 53 of 81 = 65 %

Winning % on 2nd Serve 20 of 40 = 50 % 16 of 41 = 39 %

Winners (Including Service) 69 33

Receiving Points Won 53 of 122 = 43 % 30 of 103 = 29 %

Break Point Conversions 6 of 16 = 38 % 2 of 8 = 25 %

Net Approaches 26 of 38 = 68 % 26 of 49 = 53 %

Total Points Won 126 99

Fastest Serve 131 MPH 142 MPH

Average 1st Serve Speed 116 MPH 126 MPH

Average 2nd Serve Speed 94 MPH 97 MPH

<end snip>

Most revealing are the serve statistics, UE's, and points won. Roddick was statistically destroyed, and for someone who serves with that velocity and at 66% (which is damn good) to lose that many points on serve, tells me his serve isnt all that. people seem caught up in his mph, but this shows you how unimportant it is. The mph is measured while the ball is in the air...placement and what happens after the bounce is where its at, and Roddicks second serves were landing far too short in the court and his serve must be very readable (this isnt just when he plays Fed). I think Andy has picked up his backhand to a nice degree, dont think his forehand is imposing to people anymore, and people are on to his serve, and he is still very fraile mentally, and has NO reason being at net..In short, I think others have passed him by and that he is pretty much already an overacheiver who was bolstered by the presense of Connors who lit a fire under his ass for the short term.
I have no idea how anyone can say that Fed didnt play great....look at the stats especially winner to UE's and points won, serves, i mean...look at all the stats...totally impressive
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
BiGGieStuFF said:
yeah it's not bad but it's not how he served throughout the tournament, where he was regularly getting 70% plus in. And that's not out of the ordinary for him to get that high, that's usually how he serves just about. He served that poorly in the 1st and the 4th and that's about all she wrote. He needs to take a page from Sampras book and be content with going to a tiebreak each set where usually the big server has the advantage.

Again, Roddick was going for more on his serve versus Federer than against his other opponents because he knew Federer could return his serves better than his other opponents, and also his chances of winning the point once the ball is in play is less versus Federer than versus his other opponents.

A 66% first serve percentage is still pretty good and very close to 70%. BTW, Federer only served at 61% first serves and still won.
 

BiGGieStuFF

Hall of Fame
BreakPoint said:
Again, Roddick was going for more on his serve versus Federer than against his other opponents because he knew Federer could return his serves better than his other opponents, and also his chances of winning the point once the ball is in play is less versus Federer than versus his other opponents.

A 66% first serve percentage is still pretty good and very close to 70%. BTW, Federer only served at 61% first serves and still won.

I know he was going for more, but he didn't need to go for more. That was his downfall. he served just fine at 72% which was around his norm for the tournament in the 2nd set and was able to hold serve handily. He wasn't winning points on aces as he only had 1 ace but it allowed him to either get a cheap point by fed error or a shot that he could start to dictate the point. Granted he got the bonus of the break so that won him the 2nd set. Serve like that in the 3rd and he's at least guaranteed a tiebreaker.

He could have played within himself but he opted to go for homeruns which usually don't work against federer.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
justineheninhoogenbandfan said:
Every time I am on a thread and I see the name "Rabbit" pop up more then once I say thank god for the ignore function and I all I get is a line of nothing rather then god knows what. :)

If anyone on these boards lived the the creedo "Ignorance is bliss" it would be you, Davey.

And, the only time I respond is when you cross the line from stoopid to just plain "I can't believe he said that".
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
NoBadMojo said:
I think Andy has picked up his backhand to a nice degree, dont think his forehand is imposing to people anymore, and people are on to his serve, and he is still very fraile mentally, and has NO reason being at net..In short, I think others have passed him by and that he is pretty much already an overacheiver who was bolstered by the presense of Connors who lit a fire under his ass for the short term.

I agree with you. People jump to Roddick bandwagon too quickly like he never played like this before. To me, his performance at 2004 Wimbledon was equally as impressive as this one if not more. This is his best surface movement wise.

He has played great, no question, but not extraordinary. He still hasn't beat one single top 10 player this year.


NoBadMojo said:
I have no idea how anyone can say that Fed didnt play great....look at the stats especially winner to UE's and points won, serves, i mean...look at all the stats...totally impressive

People want Federer to be perfect. He played great overall. The only glitch was in 2nd and 3rd set, he didn't use his slice to change direction of the ball as much as he did in 1st and 4th set. He tried to hit with Roddick too much (he can still win the hitting match with Roddick, but use his variety would make it easier for him), and he was a little bit conservative in returning second serve a little bit during that stretch. That's the only hitch for him.
 

monologuist

Hall of Fame
federerforever said:
It's amazing that Roddick was able to win a non-tiebreak set off Federer while playing the worst match of the tournament and completely choking. And he did that while Federer was playing at his best. Anybody who has seen the Roddick-Hewitt match will know what I am talking about. If Roddick would have played at least as good as he did against Hewitt then he would have taken Federer to five sets and actually would have had a chance to win a match. Roddick has all the talent and skills to beat Federer playing at his best. But unfortunately Roddick does not have the mental toughness or stamina to pull this off. In order to beat Federer at his best Roddick would have to go over 4 hours in a 5 setter match. If Roddick is not prepared to handle that then he will never be able to beat Federer in a slam. Roddick's biggest weakness is the lack of mental toughness and endurance. That's what makes Federer so invincible because he is the mentaly toughest and fit player of all time. Hopefully next time Roddick will realize that you have to play at your best against Federer in a slam, not at your worst.

wellI agree on some of your points...

While I wouldn't say that Roddick played the worst match of the tournament vs. Federer, he certainly came out way too tight and got pummeled in the first set....if he had been able to play the way he did in the 2nd and 3rd sets in the first, he might have taken that first set, and in doing so, may have actually had a shot at winning the match. Losing the first set to Fed pretty much equals match suicide.

I do think that Roddick could have served better....he got his serve going at moments, but it let him down in some key situations. Against Hewitt, his serve was just rolling from start to finish. Also, he did not seem to have the confidence in his backhand, particularly down the line, as he did earlier in the tournament....that is the one shot that is crucial in order to beat Fed (unless you are a lefty), as has been shown time and time again.

I agree that his mental toughness, or in particular, his confidence, is the area that he is clearly not in the same league as Roger...and yes, he appeared to tire in the fourth set, but normally, I don't think Roddick has fitness issues...he is a pretty fit guy in his own right...but it's always hard to play a final less than 24 hours after a grueling semi....in this regard, Fed usually has the advantage in finals, as he usually steamrools whoever he plays in the semis.

I actually disagree about Federer's endurance....it is good, but I think it appears better than it is usually b/c he spends so little time out on the court over the course of a tournament compared to everyone else! I mean, yes, physically, he has the endurance to go the distance against most players, but it is mentally where he has proven that he is vulnerable in long matches. He has a losing record in 5 set matches for his career. We've actually seen him have some pretty monumental mental collapses late in long matches. Not converting on matchpoints vs. Safin at the AO 2005 and vs. Nadal at the Rome Masters 2006, and going on to lose both those matches are some recent examples. Even in the quarter finals vs. Blake, Fed started to become mentally unglued late in the match.

So in a way, I think his mental endurance is not quite at the same level as the rest of his game. In particular, I've noticed that in matches where a player, like Nadal, is able to pick on his backhand enough, and is able to draw enough errors from it, late in the match, Federer's backhand is suceptible to rather long bouts where it breaks down completely...yes part of this is a loack of phycial endurance hitting high backhands all day, but I think it is more mental. Since his backhand was his one obvious weakness from his youth and on, until really only the last couple of years, and it was picked on and exploited by players such as Hewitt and Nalbandian who dominated Fed as a junior, I think that it can still break down under pressure, and maybe always could...sometimes the things we are most insecure about early in life (particularly matters of the psyche), even if we are able to overcome these things or improve them, can come back to haunt us under duress.

Anyway, I guess the main point here is that Roddick is improving, as hard as it is to believe. I like him in this role of a forgotten player with a chip on his shoulder, and I like the infusion of emotion that Connors has re-instilled in him. I think he is a hard worker , harder than people give him credit for, and while he may never be no.1 in the world again, I do think he has another slam or two left in him if he is able to continue to improve. The improvement in his backhand alone in the last 3 or 4 months is impressive. This tells me that it is perhaps just a matter of proper coaching. The volleys are improving slowly but steadily..the approach game also has, but there's a long way to go there. There have been some subtle improvements in his awful return game, but again, a long way to go to hte top in that department....certainly Connors could be a hell of a boon here....2007 will be an interesting year for Roddick...I've rarely seen a player rise from such low depths as he was playing in early in the year and late last year to his current form. That in of itself is actually pretty impressive in my mind. It shows a mental toughness on a macro level that few people possess.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
monologuist said:
So in a way, I think his mental endurance is not quite at the same level as the rest of his game. In particular, I've noticed that in matches where a player, like Nadal, is able to pick on his backhand enough, and is able to draw enough errors from it, late in the match, Federer's backhand is suceptible to rather long bouts where it breaks down completely...yes part of this is a loack of phycial endurance hitting high backhands all day, but I think it is more mental. Since his backhand was his one obvious weakness from his youth and on, until really only the last couple of years, and it was picked on and exploited by players such as Hewitt and Nalbandian who dominated Fed as a junior, I think that it can still break down under pressure, and maybe always could...sometimes the things we are most insecure about early in life (particularly matters of the psyche), even if we are able to overcome these things or improve them, can come back to haunt us under duress.

Federer's backhand rarely breakdown on fast low bounce court.
 

TENNIS_IS_FUN

Professional
Kaptain Karl said:
(a) If Fed can play better than that first set, they whole ATP should just pack up and go home.

(b) Using your own logic, Fed didn't play his best because Andy didn't let him. (See how silly it seems when you turn it around?)


a.) Yes, i agree with your idea.
b.) Yes i also agree that Fed didnt play his best because Andy didnt let him. You can't use that as an excuse though, because i didnt start the thread/argument :confused:
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Roddick got an early Xmas gift without the bow around it - or the card "From Roger". Yes I'm talking about that 2nd set. Fed had a mental relapse, going back to his late teens when he was prone to get bored and lose his focus on finishing a match.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
BreakPoint said:
Huh? I'm not sure what you mean by "longer"?
Then why not just ask ... instead of building an argument against a misunderstanding?

I meant that there were more periods of sustained good-to-excellent play from Andy in the Hewitt and Youhzny (sp?) matches than in the Federer match. (I didn't mean "total match time" or "total numbers of games." Just "periods of time or a span of points, if you will.)

- KK
 

David L

Hall of Fame
Kaptain Karl said:
I found this an ironic opening. Especially when you later claimed...."It seems that people do not pay attention when watching tennis matches." You must not have watched Roddick play very often. He played better -- longer -- against Hewitt ... and against Yhouzny (sp?).

It makes sense that Roddick would play better or at least look like he played better against Hewitt and Youzhny. They are not Federer. Did'nt I already make this point?
 
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