Serving: More like a baseball throw or a football throw?

[HunterST]

It's widely accepted that serving is an upward throwing motion. To improve my serve, I've been trying to improve my throwing. I've been studying the throwing mechanics for baseball and football.

While the motion is very similar, there are obviously some differences.

When throwing a football, your palm is supinated for a longer period due to the fact that you want the ball to spiral.

In baseball, the palm faces away from you during the preparation, but then faces the target more than a football throw.


It's hard to describe these differences, but most of us who have played sports know there is a slight difference in how these two throws feel.

Which do you think is more appropriate for the serve?

 

[TennisCJC]

Probably closer to throwing a baseball but very similar to both.

For baseball throw, palm starts down and away in take back, Then as forward motion starts, shoulders rotate forward and palm is facing ear. Then forearm and palm pronate back toward target and finish facing away from body.

 

[Curiosity]

I'm curious. Why the fascination with possible analogic sports motions? Do you wonder on a diamond whether a fastball pitch is more like a tennis serve or football throw?

 

[TennisCJC]

I'm curious. Why the fascination with possible analogic sports motions? Do you wonder on a diamond whether a fastball pitch is more like a tennis serve or football throw?

Improving a throwing motion is a good way to improve your serve. Throwing is also a good way to warm up for tennis if you have the time and dedication. Ryan Harrison carries a football in his bag and warms up by throwing a few with his coach.

I am not a coach but do teach my adult daughter. Having her throw a few tennis balls high over the net before she tries serving also has helped her.

 

[Curiosity]

.......
I am not a coach but do teach my adult daughter. Having her throw a few tennis balls high over the net before she tries serving also has helped her.

Tossing a football (or baseball) sounds like a good way to warm up the shoulder, upper body! Trying to wind up and throw a baseball nearly straight upward, but forward, is quite a bit like the serve, isn't it.

I suppose I'm leery of hanging onto a suggestive analogy too long....

 

[Raul_SJ]

I'm curious. Why the fascination with possible analogic sports motions? Do you wonder on a diamond whether a fastball pitch is more like a tennis serve or football throw?

I'm curious why I can throw a baseball relatively accurately to first, second, or third base.

But I don't have nearly as much control on the serve. My toss is very consistent but no placement control; serve will go down the T when aiming wide, etc.

I can easily throw a tennis ball down the T or wide. Is there any way to get that similar feeling of placement control on the serve?

 

[Chas Tennis]

It's widely accepted that serving is an upward throwing motion. To improve my serve, I've been trying to improve my throwing. I've been studying the throwing mechanics for baseball and football.

While the motion is very similar, there are obviously some differences.

When throwing a football, your palm is supinated for a longer period due to the fact that you want the ball to spiral.

In baseball, the palm faces away from you during the preparation, but then faces the target more than a football throw.


It's hard to describe these differences, but most of us who have played sports know there is a slight difference in how these two throws feel.

Which do you think is more appropriate for the serve?

Here is a technical thread with some information and considerations on this complex issue.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis

(Hey, dominikk1985, SystemicAnomaly...)

 

[HunterST]

I'm curious why I can throw a baseball relatively accurately to first, second, or third base.

But I don't have nearly as much control on the serve. My toss is very consistent but no placement control; serve will go down the T when aiming wide, etc.

I can easily throw a tennis ball down the T or wide. Is there any way to get that similar feeling of placement control on the serve?

How long have you been playing? You probably just need to get a ton more serves under your belt. You have the motion if you have a good arm, but you just need to practice.

Here's a drill Ash, a certified pro, posted on here the other day. I think it would help address your issue.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=8527633&postcount=18

 

[Topspin Shot]

When throwing a football, your palm is supinated for a longer period due to the fact that you want the ball to spiral.

Spin serve.

In baseball, the palm faces away from you during the preparation, but then faces the target more than a football throw.

Flat serve.

Interesting observation you made. See the red text.

 

[HunterST]

Here is a technical thread with some information and considerations on this complex issue.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis

(Hey, dominikk1985, SystemicAnomaly...)

Cool! Lots of interesting stuff in there.

 

[LeeD]

Both and neither...
The baseball throw needs to be long and high.
The football throw needs to be very far, and upwards around 35 degrees also.
But the followthru is different than tennis.
You pronate in tennis serves.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Both and neither...
The baseball throw needs to be long and high.
The football throw needs to be very far, and upwards around 35 degrees also.
But the followthru is different than tennis.
You pronate in tennis serves.

You pronate in baseball and football throws too. See:

 

[GuyClinch]

Well if you want to be technical its ISR - not just pronation.. But yeah all throwing motions have it - its an upward throw.

I found some pretty good baseball throwing videos on youtube. Good stuff if you have someone to throw with..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_zWCRbrV1Y

For whatever reason the QB stuff is less good..

That being said if you are tennis player I think the stuff at feeltennis.net is really the best. Only he really fixes broken serves - other pros just tend to focus on improving decent serves.

http://www.feeltennis.net/correcting-the-waiters-serve/

 

[5263]

Well if you want to be technical its ISR - not just pronation.. But yeah all throwing motions have it - its an upward throw.

Just like serving.

 

[Curiosity]

I'm curious why I can throw a baseball relatively accurately to first, second, or third base.

But I don't have nearly as much control on the serve. My toss is very consistent but no placement control; serve will go down the T when aiming wide, etc.

I can easily throw a tennis ball down the T or wide. Is there any way to get that similar feeling of placement control on the serve?

The baseball throw and release is much simpler and more direct (not talking about high-level pitching).

My personal view is this, that to produce good placement you need to learn the specific motions of a full modern tennis serve WITH the ESR going back, with the racquet eventually coming up knife-edge toward the ball as you extend up, with ISR and pronation. It absolutely isn't just like throwing a ball, though of course there are similarities. Pick a pro with a good standard serve (Fed or your favorite). Get the slow motion video of it (see the last segments of any of the three (Fed, Djoker, Rafa) linked at the bottom of post #274 in the thread "had my first real tennis lesson." Look at the serves 100 times. Each time look for what they do, the synchronization of parts (arms, leg's, UB rotation, etc.). Try to mimic them as you watch. Stop the video frequently. Really watch closely.

The modern tennis serve was specifically designed (by thought, by experiment) to produce speed AND accuracy, placement, WITH A RACQUET, NOT A BALL.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

... Which do you think is more appropriate for the serve?

Throwing tennis racquets would be more appropriate than throwing tennis balls, baseballs or footballs. Throwing various types of balls will have some benefit in warming up the shoulder/arm, core and other body parts. However, while many elements of ball throwing is similar to tennis serving, they are still considerably different actions. It is one thing to throw a ball, however the throwing motion changes with a 2.5+ foot extension in the hand. The moment of inertia (swingweight) of a tennis racket is much greater than that of a ball -- this changes the nature of the throwing motion.

I have mentioned the following several times before. Some of us naturally throw right-handed but serve much better with the left arm. (I suppose the opposite case could also be true as well). I have seen this phenomenon with quite a few lefty server students. While I have learned to serve with either hand, my own lefty serve is quite a bit better than than my righty serve. However, my lefty ball throwing ability is considerably inferior to my righty throwing. OTOH, I can throw rackets equally well with either hand. As I said previously, I've observed the same thing with an number of lefty (serving) students. This is a clear indication that ball throwing and tennis serving are not quite the same.

The swing of a tennis racket, like a golf club, is affected by the extra length. Analysis of golf swings, tennis serves and tennis forehands show elements of a complex (multi-segment) pendulum or catapult action. Models of a double pendulum, triple pendulum and a trebuchet catapult have been used to explain the actions/mechanics of a tennis serve. To paraphrase CharlieF (below), "the serve is a series of catapult-like actions with energy from our muscles being generated through axes about our hips, waist, shoulders, elbows and wrists".

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/doublependulum.php
http://www.uark.edu/ua/pirelli/testing/Unit2/CMwBang!10.htm

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=7061164#post7061164
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5406713#post5406713
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5475952#post5475952
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6540074&highlight=trebuchet#post6540074

Trebuchet

 

[TCF]

content not found

 

[Ballinbob]

But throwing anything the right way is great for serving.

This is key...Make sure you're throwing the correct way and not just throwing for the sake of throwing. For me, learning to throw a football wasn't as easy as I anticipated and it's definitely worth the time to sit back and analyze your throwing motion to make sure you're doing it the right way

and Chas, thanks for the link.Really good read

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Won't even bother to read the thread because anyone who knows tennis knows its usually a football. Same motion, same pronation ...

Still different. Among other things, throwing a football does not always use a pectoral stretch they was a tennis serve or baseball throw does. On short and medium passes, the elbow comes forward early (releasing the pectoral stretch). Perhaps more stretch on long bombs. Other differences as well. You should bother to read the thread.

 

[5263]

Still different. Among other things, throwing a football does not always use a pectoral stretch .

It should....but are you talking about throwing a racket with pronation?

 

[Fusker]

How most people throw a football and baseball probably has little relevance to a serve, and is probably just good for stretching out. Most people's throwing motions are dreadful.

However, look at a good quarterback or middle infielder (ignore outfielders and pitchers - both have way too long a motion) when the ball is up near the ear. There is a noticeable difference in palm position, but if you take your non throwing arm and extend it to the sky, you have the makings of a trophy position. I still think the football motion replicates the serve a bit better. Having played shortstop for 20 years or so, you can see why the abbreviated service motion is more natural to me.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It should....but are you talking about throwing a racket with pronation?

I have my students do both. First we start with tomahawk (hatcet) throws -- throwing the racket on edge with no pronation. Then we progress to fully pronated throws. Lastly we perform some with partial pronation and simulate a brushing action to simulate the pre-contact swing for slice and for topspin serves. Most throws are performed at an upward angle. We start with a few at 30 degrees, then more at 45 degrees and finally, 75+ degrees.

Still different. Among other things, throwing a football does not always use a pectoral stretch they was a tennis serve or baseball throw does. On short and medium passes, the elbow comes forward early (releasing the pectoral stretch). Perhaps more stretch on long bombs. Other differences as well. You should bother to read the thread.

Tennis serves also employ a significant shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action that throwing a football does not. Not much of a shoulder tilt either with for a football pass.

 

[5263]

Tennis serves also employ a significant shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action that throwing a football does not. Not much of a shoulder tilt either with for a football pass.

That is why you throw high, like punts and sure it can and the pec stretch as well.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

Football.



Put a folded dollar bill and have it sticking out of your left pocket. Holding the racquet loosely with just the thumb and middle finger, "throw" the racquet head at the ball and finish 'plucking' the bill out of the left pocket with the 'pronated' hand (whose thumb and index finger are now pointing downward. that is, in position to pick the bill out of the pocket).

 

[Chas Tennis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY#t=44

Throw - upper arm(humerus) orientation and internal shoulder rotation similar to the serve (for this serve-throw comparison from one video). But there is more of an angle at the elbow so that the forearm is out from the center of rotation to get hand speed from the internal shoulder rotation.

Serve - upper arm similar but arm is straight at elbow at impact. Racket is at an angle to the forearm in order to get racket head speed from the internal shoulder rotation.

It would be very informative to have high speed videos of the throws and serves of the various players, beginners, etc..

As I said in the ASMI thread, I can see the similarity of the motion of the upper arm, rotated by internal shoulder rotation for the serve and throw. Throwing as a learning exercise may provide a reasonable simulation for the feel of a serve also accelerated by internal shoulder rotation. But the timing of pre-stretching ISR muscles, the elbow angle, and racket vs no racket make for considerable differences that should be understood. See details in the reply to my ASMI thread.

 

[Power Player]

ISR, High Speed Video...yes that is the answer!!!

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

That is why you throw high, like punts and sure it can and the pec stretch as well.

When tennis players are throwing around a football for a warmup, it is doubtful that they employing much of a shoulder tilt or are throwing at a very steep angle. Also doubtful that they are maintaining (or even achieving) much of a pec stretch. Ball throwing is a means for warming up the shoulder/arm, core and other body parts. However it does not really simulate a tennis serve.

 

[LeeD]

Baseball, which pitch? Outfielder's long throw motion the closest.
Football, too much wrist on followthru, an active wrist.

 

[Chas Tennis]

High speed video of a football throw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngel-VlrgAk

Original thread with discussions of throwing and tennis serve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngel-VlrgAk

Drew Brees slow motion throw. Very nice video.

 

[TennisCJC]

I'm curious why I can throw a baseball relatively accurately to first, second, or third base.

But I don't have nearly as much control on the serve. My toss is very consistent but no placement control; serve will go down the T when aiming wide, etc.

I can easily throw a tennis ball down the T or wide. Is there any way to get that similar feeling of placement control on the serve?

The baseball is in hour hand. So, you have an acute awareness of where you are directing the ball thus very good accuracy.

In a tennis serve, you have a 27 inch racket between your hand and the contact with the ball making it more difficult to have precise control.

In baseball, I could pitch to target such as low outside corner or high inside corner. But, when hitting infield practice with a bat, I could not hit precise spots when hitting ground balls like pitching. The contact spot on the bat is far away from my hand and understanding/controlling the precise angles of a round bat to a round ball is more difficult than understanding/controlling the angles of a ball in your hand.

To serve accurately, you need to develop very good racket face control which takes time. Lindsey Davenport said she targeted spots within inches. So, 1 square foot was a big target to Lindsey. It can be done. For me, I target 2x2 foot boxes in the service box and can usually get close.

 

[LeeD]

I target an imaginary spot on the net cord, as opposed to the opponent's court.
My speed of serve gives it the depth, while the height of my second serves give the depth.