Thiem is now 2-7 in big finals

[HetTheGreaterer]

Note :- big finals include the finals of Grand slam tournaments, ATP finals & ATP master 1000 events.

2017 Madrid :- Lost to nadal 6-7 4-6
2018 Madrid :- Lost to Zverev 4-6 4-6
2018 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 4-6 3-6 2-6
2019 IW. :- Defeated Federer 3-6 6-3 7-5
2019 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 3-6 7-5 6-1 6-1
2019 WTF. :- Lost to Tsitsipas 7-6 2-6 6-7
2020 AO. :- Lost to Djokovic 4-6 6-4 6-2 3-6 4-6
2020 USO. :- Defeated Zverev 2-6 4-6 6-4 6-3 7-6
2020 WTF. :- Lost to Medvedev 6-4 6-7 4-6


In those 7 losses, he has managed just to win 5 sets. Many of the finals were blowouts. Even though massu has improved his game largely since 2019, his record in big finals is still atrocious.
He needed a very unclutch roger and a choking zverev to win his 2 big titles.
What do you think about this??

His game certainly has a higher ceiling than Medvedev and Zverev, who both are 4-2 & 4-4 in big finals.

Is Thiem really underperforming in the big finals or does he have a bad luck??
Discuss.

 

[BackhandDTL]

He lost to the king of clay 3 times at RG, AO goat once, indoor HC best player once.

His only bad losses include Sissy and Z at Madrid.

 

[Fedinkum]

His tennis sense on court is a little too robotics. He doesn’t adjust well on big occasions. He was close today though. Would be interesting had the match gone Best of 5.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

Thiem won the one tournament that mattered the most, 2020 US Open.

Zverev is 4-5 in big finals. Thiem is 2-7 as you say but who has the slam? Thiem.

Zverev's big final record:

2017 Italian Open: Defeated Djokovic 6-4 6-3
2017 Canadian Open: Defeated Federer 6-3 6-4
2018 Miami Open: Lost to Isner 7-6 4-6 4-6
2018 Madrid Open: Defeated Thiem 6-4 6-4
2018 Italian Open: Lost to Nadal 1-6 6-1 3-6
2018 World Tour Finals: Defeated Djokovic 6-4 6-3
2019 Shanghai Masters: Lost to Medvedev 4-6 1-6.
2020 US Open: Lost to Thiem 6–2, 6–4, 4–6, 3–6, 6–7
2020 Paris Masters: Lost to Medvedev 7-5 4-6 1-6.

 

[ND-13]

Wow.. that is a bad look . And he was also very lucky to win against Roger and Alex Zverev

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Thiem won the one tournament that mattered the most, 2020 US Open.

Zverev is 4-5 in big finals. Thiem is 2-7 as you say but who has the slam? Thiem.

Zverev's big final record:

2017 Italian Open: Defeated Djokovic 6-4 6-3
2017 Canadian Open: Defeated Federer 6-3 6-4
2018 Miami Open: Lost to Isner 7-6 4-6 4-6
2018 Madrid Open: Defeated Thiem 6-4 6-4
2018 Italian Open: Lost to Nadal 1-6 6-1 3-6
2018 World Tour Finals: Defeated Djokovic 6-4 6-3
2019 Shanghai Masters: Lost to Medvedev 4-6 1-6.
2020 US Open: Lost to Thiem 6–2, 6–4, 4–6, 3–6, 6–7
2020 Paris Masters: Lost to Medvedev 7-5 4-6 1-6.

Still its not a great record at all, considering that he was virtually 2 points away from losing even those 2 Victories.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

His tennis sense on court is a little too robotics. He doesn’t adjust well on big occasions. He was close today though. Would be interesting had the match gone Best of 5.

That's true, many people claim that he is better than Wawrinka. Yes Thiem has better serve, movement and return compared to Wawrinka; but on court, Wawrinka's point construction is much much better than Thiem.

 

[Backspin1183]

 

[RelentlessAttack]

That's true, many people claim that he is better than Wawrinka. Yes Thiem has better serve, movement and return compared to Wawrinka; but on court, Wawrinka's point construction is much much better than Thiem.

At the end of the day, to win the biggest titles you need to have some weapon that reliably buries your opponents, and peak Wawrinka is better at that than Thiem

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

What's your take on this topic??

 

[Backspin1183]

What's your take on this topic??

I'm not sure it's something we can fix for him. He always gets very nervous in big finals. He probably needs to just focus on playing his best tennis and not much at all on winning or losing a final. Right now he's playing the best tennis of his life. He needs to make the most of it.

I was rooting for him in the US Open final against Zverev. I felt like if he hadn't won that final, he would never win one. Zverev, Medvedev and Tsitsipas all seem to have more self belief than him in big finals. This is one area team Thiem will need to work more on. He's really very good and deserves to win many big titles in a post big 3 era.

 

[DSH]

Thiem:
Ich kriege so eine Krawattewenn ich in großartigen Finals spiele!

 

[BGod]

He seems to be turning a corner though.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

He seems to be turning a corner though.

I really don't think so.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

At the end of the day, to win the biggest titles you need to have some weapon that reliably buries your opponents, and peak Wawrinka is better at that than Thiem

Thiem does have weapons, but his strategy and point construction are not as good as Wawrinka's. He becomes a bit too predictable, especially with the forehand.

 

[aditya123]

Thiem does have weapons, but his strategy and point construction are not as good as Wawrinka's. He becomes a bit too predictable, especially with the forehand.

Inside out forehand no

 

[Tshooter]

Lost to Fratangelo at RG and was never really the same player after.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Note :- big finals include the finals of Grand slam tournaments, ATP finals & ATP master 1000 events.

2017 Madrid :- Lost to nadal 6-7 4-6
2018 Madrid :- Lost to Zverev 4-6 4-6
2018 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 4-6 3-6 2-6
2019 IW. :- Defeated Federer 3-6 6-3 7-5
2019 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 3-6 7-5 6-1 6-1
2019 WTF. :- Lost to Tsitsipas 7-6 2-6 6-7
2020 AO. :- Lost to Djokovic 4-6 6-4 6-2 3-6 4-6
2020 USO. :- Defeated Zverev 2-6 4-6 6-4 6-3 7-6
2020 WTF. :- Lost to Medvedev 6-4 6-7 4-6


In those 7 losses, he has managed just to win 5 sets. Many of the finals were blowouts. Even though massu has improved his game largely since 2019, his record in big finals is still atrocious.
He needed a very unclutch roger and a choking zverev to win his 2 big titles.
What do you think about this??

His game certainly has a higher ceiling than Medvedev and Zverev, who both are 4-2 & 4-4 in big finals.

Is Thiem really underperforming in the big finals or does he have a bad luck??
Discuss.

The only disappointing losses on this list are those to Zverev and Tsitsipas--but those guys were in good form for those tournaments and are not exactly slouches.

Losing a final to Nadal at the FO doesn't count as a choke. Same is true for the AO to Nole. Thiem was never supposed to be a factor off of clay, said all the experts.
Medvedev is an absolute beast on HC and fully deserved to win today. He's simply better than Thiem on HC. Thiem is lucky to have gotten a USO title honestly because Medvedev and probably Sinner will be cleaning up there.

Thiem needs to learn the grass game. I honestly think he can. He's developing superb feel and variety.

He's just playing superior players. He's a very good player in an era of ATGs.

He will hopefully pick up more big titles in the future.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

That's true, many people claim that he is better than Wawrinka. Yes Thiem has better serve, movement and return compared to Wawrinka; but on court, Wawrinka's point construction is much much better than Thiem.

Serve: Thiem
FH: slight edge to Thiem (better variety)
BH: Stan (much more clutch under pressure)
RoS: Thiem probably (though neither great)
Net: Thiem (by a mile)
Movement: Thiem

 

[Third Serve]

Serve: Thiem
FH: slight edge to Thiem (better variety)
BH: Stan
RoS: Thiem probably (though neither great)
Net: Thiem (by a mile)
Movement: Thiem

Stan's serve is pretty fugly, but it was actually quite effective. Thiem's serve is cool enough as well, though.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Note :- big finals include the finals of Grand slam tournaments, ATP finals & ATP master 1000 events.

2017 Madrid :- Lost to nadal 6-7 4-6
2018 Madrid :- Lost to Zverev 4-6 4-6
2018 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 4-6 3-6 2-6
2019 IW. :- Defeated Federer 3-6 6-3 7-5
2019 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 3-6 7-5 6-1 6-1
2019 WTF. :- Lost to Tsitsipas 7-6 2-6 6-7
2020 AO. :- Lost to Djokovic 4-6 6-4 6-2 3-6 4-6
2020 USO. :- Defeated Zverev 2-6 4-6 6-4 6-3 7-6
2020 WTF. :- Lost to Medvedev 6-4 6-7 4-6


In those 7 losses, he has managed just to win 5 sets. Many of the finals were blowouts. Even though massu has improved his game largely since 2019, his record in big finals is still atrocious.
He needed a very unclutch roger and a choking zverev to win his 2 big titles.
What do you think about this??

His game certainly has a higher ceiling than Medvedev and Zverev, who both are 4-2 & 4-4 in big finals.

Is Thiem really underperforming in the big finals or does he have a bad luck??
Discuss.

Stan had some very clutch performances against Nole and Nadal and deserves all the glory for that.
But Thiem has already made more "big finals" than Stan has in a significantly longer career (despite the inferior record).

Stan isn't exactly clutch at M 1000 finals either, and he never even made finals at WTF:

Loss	2008	Italian Open	Clay	Novak Djokovic	6–4, 3–6, 3–6
Loss	2013	Madrid Open	Clay	Rafael Nadal	2–6, 4–6
Win	2014	Monte-Carlo Masters	Clay	Roger Federer	4–6, 7–6(7–5), 6–2
Loss	2017	Indian Wells Masters	Hard	Roger Federer	4–6, 5–7

 

[bluetrain4]

I don't think he has a problem yet.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I wish we could see more of these battles but Stan may be too old at this point:

 

[Nadalgaenger]

He lost to the king of clay 3 times at RG, AO goat once, indoor HC best player once.

His only bad losses include Sissy and Z at Madrid.

I wouldn't even call those bad losses. Those guys are legit top 7 players who were in excellent form in those tournaments. Zverev was really a force earlier before he became a headcase on second serve!

 

[Cortana]

There is no shame in losing to those guys.

 

[ClaudTT]

Thiem:
Ich kriege so eine Krawattewenn ich in großartigen Finals spiele!

I do not agree with that self evaluation. The same game he plays over and over... not just finals.
DT would be a dream to coach... my view is that he could win a lot more.

 

[gn]

Every tournament should be downgraded to 250 effective immediately. Then the magic will happen.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Thiem is the only nextgenner to win a slam. The losses are irrelevant now

 

[InsideOut900]

Thiem is the only nextgenner to win a slam. The losses are irrelevant now

He is not a nextgenner at 27. All other guys are 3 to 6 years younger, Sinner 7 years younger.

Thiem is better than them in Slams for now, but is likely gonna be surpassed by the others over time.

 

[MichaelNadal]

He is not a nextgenner at 27. All other guys are 3 to 6 years younger, Sinner 7 years younger.

Thiem is better than them in Slams for now, but is likely gonna be surpassed by the others over time.

He's going to beast next year lol I doubt it. They're too hot and cold.

 

[InsideOut900]

He's going to beast next year lol I doubt it. They're too hot and cold.

He nearly lost the USO final, which, truthfully, sursprises me.

Maybe he finds his clay form and leaves the HC Slams to others, haha

He is gonna be a big threat next year for sure.

 

[blablavla]

Note :- big finals include the finals of Grand slam tournaments, ATP finals & ATP master 1000 events.

2017 Madrid :- Lost to nadal 6-7 4-6
2018 Madrid :- Lost to Zverev 4-6 4-6
2018 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 4-6 3-6 2-6
2019 IW. :- Defeated Federer 3-6 6-3 7-5
2019 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 3-6 7-5 6-1 6-1
2019 WTF. :- Lost to Tsitsipas 7-6 2-6 6-7
2020 AO. :- Lost to Djokovic 4-6 6-4 6-2 3-6 4-6
2020 USO. :- Defeated Zverev 2-6 4-6 6-4 6-3 7-6
2020 WTF. :- Lost to Medvedev 6-4 6-7 4-6


In those 7 losses, he has managed just to win 5 sets. Many of the finals were blowouts. Even though massu has improved his game largely since 2019, his record in big finals is still atrocious.
He needed a very unclutch roger and a choking zverev to win his 2 big titles.
What do you think about this??

His game certainly has a higher ceiling than Medvedev and Zverev, who both are 4-2 & 4-4 in big finals.

Is Thiem really underperforming in the big finals or does he have a bad luck??
Discuss.

he won at least one set in 5 of those 7 losses how are these "blowouts"

further, let's go through the score of the matches where he lost in straight sets:
2017 Madrid :- Lost to nadal 6-7 4-6
2018 Madrid :- Lost to Zverev 4-6 4-6
which of these matches is a "blowout"?

Just to be sure that we talk same language, this is what a blowout means:
A sporting contest that is decidedly one-sided and whose outcome is no longer in doubt. The game between the two teams was nothing but a blowout.

 

[thomasferrett]

That's true, many people claim that he is better than Wawrinka. Yes Thiem has better serve, movement and return compared to Wawrinka; but on court, Wawrinka's point construction is much much better than Thiem.

There is no such thing as point construction. Tennis is a sport of doing, not one of thinking.

The only 'point construction' that occurs in tennis is: hit as hard as you can, run as hard as you can.

 

[blablavla]

There is no such thing as point construction. Tennis is a sport of doing, not one of thinking.

The only 'point construction' that occurs in tennis is: hit as hard as you can, run as hard as you can.

and I thought one is expected to run fast
now I know, I have to run hard

 

[thomasferrett]

Since when does 'Next Gen' apply to people over the age of 18?

You're physically and technically mature by 18. If you haven't showed much potential by then, you're never going to.

Next Gen should be reserved for 10 - 17 year olds.

 

[thomasferrett]

and I thought one is expected to run fast
now I know, I have to run hard

Replace 'hard' with 'fast', 'brutal', 'quick', 'extreme', whatever.

The point is do BETTER. Run BETTER, hit BETTER. DO BETTER.

 

[blablavla]

Replace 'hard' with 'fast', 'brutal', 'quick', 'extreme', whatever.

The point is do BETTER. Run BETTER, hit BETTER. DO BETTER.

if I start replacing, it might change the meaning, no?
for example instead of:

Worst ever return, worst ever backhand slice, subpar topspin backhand, movement, volleys and second serve, mediocre serve, forehand and 1st serve.

How the hell has this guy made it inside the top 10,000 let alone top 10?

world class return, solid BH slice, one of the best topspin backhand, movement, great service, forehand and 1st serve

 

[CYGS]

Note :- big finals include the finals of Grand slam tournaments, ATP finals & ATP master 1000 events.

2017 Madrid :- Lost to nadal 6-7 4-6
2018 Madrid :- Lost to Zverev 4-6 4-6
2018 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 4-6 3-6 2-6
2019 IW. :- Defeated Federer 3-6 6-3 7-5
2019 RG. :- Lost to Nadal 3-6 7-5 6-1 6-1
2019 WTF. :- Lost to Tsitsipas 7-6 2-6 6-7
2020 AO. :- Lost to Djokovic 4-6 6-4 6-2 3-6 4-6
2020 USO. :- Defeated Zverev 2-6 4-6 6-4 6-3 7-6
2020 WTF. :- Lost to Medvedev 6-4 6-7 4-6


In those 7 losses, he has managed just to win 5 sets. Many of the finals were blowouts. Even though massu has improved his game largely since 2019, his record in big finals is still atrocious.
He needed a very unclutch roger and a choking zverev to win his 2 big titles.
What do you think about this??

His game certainly has a higher ceiling than Medvedev and Zverev, who both are 4-2 & 4-4 in big finals.

Is Thiem really underperforming in the big finals or does he have a bad luck??
Discuss.

He only loses to bigger chockers than himself

 

[junior74]

Serve: Thiem
FH: slight edge to Thiem (better variety)
BH: Stan (much more clutch under pressure)
RoS: Thiem probably (though neither great)
Net: Thiem (by a mile)
Movement: Thiem

Brain: Stan

 

[thomasferrett]

if I start replacing, it might change the meaning, no?
for example instead of:


world class return, solid BH slice, one of the best topspin backhand, movement, great service, forehand and 1st serve

What I'm trying to say is that the entire 'art' of tennis coaching can be distilled into two words: do better.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Plus, the two wins were perilously close and comprised muggery.

 

[Boom-Boom]

Thiem won the one tournament that mattered the most, 2020 US Open.

Zverev is 4-5 in big finals. Thiem is 2-7 as you say but who has the slam? Thiem.

Zverev's big final record:

2017 Italian Open: Defeated Djokovic 6-4 6-3
2017 Canadian Open: Defeated Federer 6-3 6-4
2018 Miami Open: Lost to Isner 7-6 4-6 4-6
2018 Madrid Open: Defeated Thiem 6-4 6-4
2018 Italian Open: Lost to Nadal 1-6 6-1 3-6
2018 World Tour Finals: Defeated Djokovic 6-4 6-3
2019 Shanghai Masters: Lost to Medvedev 4-6 1-6.
2020 US Open: Lost to Thiem 6–2, 6–4, 4–6, 3–6, 6–7
2020 Paris Masters: Lost to Medvedev 7-5 4-6 1-6.

shoulda won the Italian open 2018 if not for the rain time delay in set 3

 

[Boom-Boom]

I don't think he has a problem yet.

he does have a big problem considering he’s 27 ....

 

[blablavla]

What I'm trying to say is that the entire 'art' of tennis coaching can be distilled into two words: do better.

oh, wow.
where have you been during my junior years?
if I knew this back then, I'd be now better than the Big 3...

 

[OldschoolKIaus]

Bery tough and demanding times in big finals for Dominque, no?

 

[thomasferrett]

oh, wow.
where have you been during my junior years?
if I knew this back then, I'd be now better than the Big 3...

Exactly. Tennis is a game of natural athleticism and power. If you don't have it at the start, you never will regardless of what coaches or 'tactics' you use.

 

[Start da Game]

i figure that he needs to attend some personality development classes, he is a bit too soft and low on confidence at big stages and doesn't sound confident in his demeanour or after match speeches........that is translating to under- confident performances in big finals.......it is time to get rough and stop showering love to his opponents........

 

[Born_to_slice]

His game is too physical so he gets gassed just before finish line.

 

[rUDin 21]

Brain: Stan

 

[McGradey]

Perhaps the nerves are a function of his playstyle; does he really trust his game when the pressure comes on? I'm not sure he does.

He doesn't seem to have a really solid B+/A- game to groove into, like most top players do.

Obviously his results show a big improvement in this area, but it still seems like he's either playing at the very edge of his abilities with zero margin, or conversely, retreating too far into a tense and defensive mode of play.