Things Novak does better than anyone else...

[Chanwan]

Djokovic's return of serve is a little overrated. He's undoubtably one of the greatest returners in general but not when we're talking specifically returning serve. I think Murray has a strong case to be one of, if not the best returner of serve and is well over him in that respect, Agassi too.

Interesting take, care to unfold your argument?

 

[Chanwan]

I think only in future people will realize how important and courageous Novak's decision to stand up for personal freedom was. He basically said: I don't care for tournaments and my career and I will not lose my freedom to be able to do with my body what I think is right... Just because of Novak media got to discuss the personal freedom of a man and woman. Before that it was all about suppression and restricting movement and human rights. People were literally closed in confined spaces for days, weeks and months. Was he the only public person in the world to risk his life and career by poking his finger in the eye of establishment and their puppets? That was brave. So please add: Novak is the bravest and possibly the craziest tennis player (and not just player but public person as well).

Added to the OP

 

[Kralingen]

Interesting take, care to unfold your argument?

I think Murray has the best case of just about anyone if the goal of returning serve is solely to return the ball into play, to keep the number of aces and unreturneds at minimum.

Agassi is easily the best if the goal of returning serve is to force an error and do something with the ball when you return it.

And Djokovic is in the middle of the two.

 

[Terenigma]

Interesting take, care to unfold your argument?

I'll be honest, It's mostly objective assessment of watching both of them vs notable big servers.

Murray almost always does well against big servers and Djokovic has had a few struggles with the same players. Not that either of them are bad against big servers but Andy seems to read it better and get to it more often. Also I still think the fact that Murray (Up until 2022) was undefeated vs Isner/Karlovic is a pretty ridiculous statistic and Murray did better vs Roddick

 

[Chanwan]

I'll be honest, It's mostly objective assessment of watching both of them vs notable big servers.

Murray almost always does well against big servers and Djokovic has had a few struggles with the same players. Not that either of them are bad against big servers but Andy seems to read it better and get to it more often. Also I still think the fact that Murray (Up until 2022) was undefeated vs Isner/Karlovic is a pretty ridiculous statistic and Murray did better vs Roddick

I agree. Kyrgios too

 

[Chanwan]

I'll be honest, It's mostly objective assessment of watching both of them vs notable big servers.

Murray almost always does well against big servers and Djokovic has had a few struggles with the same players. Not that either of them are bad against big servers but Andy seems to read it better and get to it more often. Also I still think the fact that Murray (Up until 2022) was undefeated vs Isner/Karlovic is a pretty ridiculous statistic and Murray did better vs Roddick

Can we find stats to back this up? I feel Murray is fairly aggressive too, often more than Djokovic who more often than not goes for the very effectice deep down the middle return

 

[Chanwan]

I think Murray has the best case of just about anyone if the goal of returning serve is solely to return the ball into play, to keep the number of aces and unreturneds at minimum.

Agassi is easily the best if the goal of returning serve is to force an error and do something with the ball when you return it.

And Djokovic is in the middle of the two.

My comment above was meant for you.

Stats vs first serve on grass & HC

First Serve Return Points Won | ATP Tour | Tennis

First serve return points won leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

First Serve Return Points Won | ATP Tour | Tennis

First serve return points won leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

Given that Djoko's lead over Murray is so small, while Murray has been broken back/metal hip Murray for so long, I think it's fair to make a case for Murray. Add to that that once the rally is in neutral Djokovic is a better player than Murray (except that mury goat oc)

Opposition matters too, of course, and on average Novak has met more higher ranked players. Feel free to add stats

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Can we find stats to back this up? I feel Murray is fairly aggressive too, often more than Djokovic who more often than not goes for the very effectice deep down the middle return

if we oversimplify 1st serve returning by saying aggressive/defensive returning depends on how often you get returns in play, and effective returning depends on getting your return deep (past the service box):

Djokovic: returns 66% of 1st serves, gets 78% of those deep, so against 1st serves he makes deep returns 51.48% of the time

Murray: returns 72% of 1st serves, gets 72% of those deep = 51.84%

other notable 1st serve returners of the past couple decades:

Ferrer: 66% x 76% = 50.16%

Medvedev: 70% x 75% = 52.5%

Davydenko: 68% x 74% = 50.32%

Federer: 66% x 74% = 48.84%

Nadal: 71% x 67% = 47.57%

Hewitt: 63% x 68% = 42.84% (?!)

great returners in the past:

Agassi: 57% x 68% = 38.76%

Connors: 59% x 68% = 40.12%

Borg: 74% x 52% = 38.48%

McEnroe: 73% x 62% = 45.26%

Wilander: 71% x 58% = 41.18%

Chang: 68% x 69% = 46.92%

Edberg surprisingly (to me) missed my arbitrary 38% cutoff: 67% x 56% = 37.52%

all stats from Tennis Abstract Match Charting Project

limiting variables: effective returning isn't just about getting it deep but even if it was, direction and how deep matters; used rounded numbers rather than using consistent significant figures, so keep in mind non-trivial margin of error; small/skewed match samples for older players, surface-biased players, and Murray; for some reason match charting stats seem broken with players like Alcaraz and Sinner so didn't include them here, but they should rank favorably

 

[Chanwan]

if we oversimplify 1st serve returning by saying aggressive/defensive returning depends on how often you get returns in play, and effective returning depends on getting your return deep (past the service box):

Djokovic: returns 66% of 1st serves, gets 78% of those deep, so against 1st serves he makes deep returns 51.48% of the time

Murray: returns 72% of 1st serves, gets 72% of those deep = 51.84%

other notable 1st serve returners of the past couple decades:

Ferrer: 66% x 76% = 50.16%

Medvedev: 70% x 75% = 52.5%

Davydenko: 68% x 74% = 50.32%

Federer: 66% x 74% = 48.84%

Nadal: 71% x 67% = 47.57%

Hewitt: 63% x 68% = 42.84% (?!)

great returners in the past:

Agassi: 57% x 68% = 38.76%

Connors: 59% x 68% = 40.12%

Borg: 74% x 52% = 38.48%

McEnroe: 73% x 62% = 45.26%

Wilander: 71% x 58% = 41.18%

Chang: 68% x 69% = 46.92%

Edberg surprisingly (to me) missed my arbitrary 38% cutoff: 67% x 56% = 37.52%

all stats from Tennis Abstract Match Charting Project

limiting variables: effective returning isn't just about getting it deep but even if it was, direction and how deep matters; used rounded numbers rather than using consistent significant figures, so keep in mind non-trivial margin of error; small/skewed match samples for older players, surface-biased players, and Murray; for some reason match charting stats seem broken with players like Alcaraz and Sinner so didn't include them here, but they should rank favorably

Excellent, thanks! Murray above Djoko. But Djoko getting a higher percentage of the returns he makes deep.

And I imagine I have a fairly good idea about why Edberg, Agassi etc are so low.

Vs S&V returning deep isn't the prime objective. Placement and getting the ball to bounce around the volleyer's feet is.
Might explain some of Hewitt's numbers too. I.e. completely different return strategies

As for Medvedev coming out on top, I wouldn't read that much into it. Given his return position him getting the return back in play and deep doesn't rob the server of time compared to Djoko, Murray etc. (same applies to Rafa's position)

 

[waarp]

Getting banned from and thrown out of tournaments.

 

[Dominic & Andrey]

I'd say resisting to the temptation of eating bread. I could never do that.

 

[upchuck]

- Return of serve
- Best backhand of all time
- Mental toughness

 

[CoolCoolCool]

I loved that Novak.

What happened to him

He faced a lot of criticism because of his imitations so he stopped doing it.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Gandhiji probably gave in to a yellow fever vaccine on his way to Africa.

No way our Novak would have.

Deplorable! But that's what happens when you focus too much on the epiphenomena of a problem and don't get to the underlying principle. Gandhi's awakening occurred when he was the victim of discrimination on a train in South Africa, and so he thought that the problem was discrimination, and later extended that to colonialism more broadly. He failed to notice that both are byproducts of the foundational problem that states violate Freedom of Choice. Novak was much wiser. Hard to tell whether it's because states violated his own right to Freedom of Choice or because he was just a more acute thinker. Probably a mixture of both.

i don't think the yellow fever vaccine was available when gandhi went to africa...
(sorry for being a nerd)

PS: novak's 'sternum photoleech' wasn't either...

 

[The Fedfather]

I think Murray has the best case of just about anyone if the goal of returning serve is solely to return the ball into play, to keep the number of aces and unreturneds at minimum.

Agassi is easily the best if the goal of returning serve is to force an error and do something with the ball when you return it.

And Djokovic is in the middle of the two.

Federer is actually the least aced out of the Big 4. And consider that at least at the start of his career he was playing on faster surfaces than the other. Not saying Roger's RoS is a candidate for the greatest return, but his reflexed are hands down the best.

I remember in 2016 or 2017 the AO organized a little game for several players where they needed to press buttons as they would randomly light up, and Roger won that (while being the oldest, iirc).

 

[Kralingen]

Federer is actually the least aced out of the Big 4. And consider that at least at the start of his career he was playing on faster surfaces than the other. Not saying Roger's RoS is a candidate for the greatest return, but his reflexed are hands down the best.

I remember in 2016 or 2017 the AO organized a little game for several players where they needed to press buttons as they would randomly light up, and Roger won that (while being the oldest, iirc).

Peak Fed’s first serve return on fast surfaces is probably best ever, I mean just look at some of those Roddick matches, but it really fell off after 2012 for me. and I think his inability to pressure second serves (especially Nadal) is a big weakness compared to the absolute brilliance of an Agassi in this respect.

 

[StrongRule]

Vulturing in the weakest era of all time.

 

[Chanwan]

Peak Fed’s first serve return on fast surfaces is probably best ever, I mean just look at some of those Roddick matches, but it really fell off after 2012 for me. and I think his inability to pressure second serves (especially Nadal) is a big weakness compared to the absolute brilliance of an Agassi in this respect.

Yes to the first serve return on fast surfaces.

If Fed had worked on his 2nd serve return, there wouldn't be a GOAT race. It's a bigger weakness, based on the stats, than Murray's 2nd serve.

Waaaaay to passive/conservative with it most of the time and when he went aggressive, he too often went all or nothing. Never found that happy medium.

Don't just take my word for it. Go to no 124 here

Second Serve Return Points Won | ATP Tour | Tennis

Second serve return points won leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

Or 111 here

Second Serve Return Points Won | ATP Tour | Tennis

Second serve return points won leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

@ghostofMecir - speaking of going that extra mile

 

[Hitman]

Vulturing in the weakest era of all time.

 

[StrongRule]

 

[The Fedfather]

Yes to the first serve return on fast surfaces.

If Fed had worked on his 2nd serve return, there wouldn't be a GOAT race. It's a bigger weakness, based on the stats, than Murray's 2nd serve.

Waaaaay to passive/conservative with it most of the time and when he went aggressive, he too often went all or nothing. Never found that happy medium.

@ghostofMecir - speaking of going that extra mile

I think his biggest issue in general was overthinking, and returning 2nd serves just gave him enough time to do that. Lol

 

[ghostofMecir]

Yes to the first serve return on fast surfaces.

If Fed had worked on his 2nd serve return, there wouldn't be a GOAT race. It's a bigger weakness, based on the stats, than Murray's 2nd serve.

Waaaaay to passive/conservative with it most of the time and when he went aggressive, he too often went all or nothing. Never found that happy medium.

@ghostofMecir - speaking of going that extra mile

@Kralingen this is one of the weaknesses of a one-handed backhand. Federer’s ability to get huge first service back and play is a testament to his instinct and skill but if you wanna pressure second service with great control, you’re pretty much have to have a two-handed backhand.

Every single all-time great candidate from here on out is going to have a two handed backhand because the benefits completely outweigh any of the advantages you might have with a handler in today’s game. If the surface is played like the 80s and then the 90s, well, you would still have some advantages with approaching the net and with volleying, but you are still going to be able to disadvantage on the return. The fact that Federer was able to win as much as he did with that tiny racket head before he made the switch, and basically with an updated stroke speaks to his unparalleled talent.

 

[Chanwan]

I think his biggest issue in general was overthinking, and returning 2nd serves just gave him enough time to do that. Lol

True, Federer was at his best when he played on instinct. But later in his career he did add more strategy.
Look at the stats I added above, there's really no excuse for those numbers given his capability.

 

[Chanwan]

@Kralingen this is one of the weaknesses of a one-handed backhand. Federer’s ability to get huge first service back and play is a testament to his instinct and skill but if you wanna pressure second service with great control, you’re pretty much have to have a two-handed backhand.

Every single all-time great candidate from here on out is going to have a two handed backhand because the benefits completely outweigh any of the advantages you might have with a handler in today’s game. If the surface is played like the 80s and then the 90s, well, you would still have some advantages with approaching the net and with volleying, but you are still going to be able to disadvantage on the return. The fact that Federer was able to win as much as he did with that tiny racket head before he made the switch, and basically with an updated stroke speaks to his unparalleled talent.

Yes and not quite yes. Overall, you are of course correct. But we are talking Federer. Look how he turned his return around vs Rafa after 13 years of getting killed by slicing/chipping it back in play.

He could and should have hit over his BH/run around it more.

I think he was too focused on getting the ball back in play rather than applying pressure

@NatF @abmk thoughts?

 

[Hitman]

 

[Technology Ruined Tennis]

I think only in future people will realize how important and courageous Novak's decision to stand up for personal freedom was. He basically said: I don't care for tournaments and my career and I will not lose my freedom to be able to do with my body what I think is right... Just because of Novak media got to discuss the personal freedom of a man and woman. Before that it was all about suppression and restricting movement and human rights. People were literally closed in confined spaces for days, weeks and months. Was he the only public person in the world to risk his life and career by poking his finger in the eye of establishment and their puppets? That was brave. So please add: Novak is the bravest and possibly the craziest tennis player (and not just player but public person as well).

That would have some merit had he stayed in Serbia and made it clear that his vaccine stance was more important that the Australian Open.

Instead, he tried to weasel his way into the country based on a, possibly fake, positive covid test. Of course, even if the test was legit, let's not forget his mask-less appearance at a children's hospital.

So close....

 

[The Fedfather]

True, Federer was at his best when he played on instinct. But later in his career he did add more strategy.
Look at the stats I added above, there's really no excuse for those numbers given his capability.

Damn, I looked at the stats. Roger was taking a sabbatical on 2nd serves, it seems. I would love to see what the % is on BPs. That could send him outside of top 200. Lol

 

[Chanwan]

Damn, I looked at the stats. Roger was taking a sabbatical on 2nd serves, it seems. I would love to see what the % is on BPs. That could send him outside of top 200. Lol

95th overall, 104th on HC

Break Points Converted | ATP Tour | Tennis

Break points converted leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

Side note, if you dig deeper he tends to lose comparatively little in return games won vs better opposition so some of the numbers being that low is probably him coasting on serve

Those numbers are for a different day though, gotta sleep. Tennisabstract should have them, I believe

 

[The Fedfather]

95th overall, 104th on HC

Break Points Converted | ATP Tour | Tennis

Break points converted leaders and stats by career, year, surface and country from men's professional tennis on the ATP Tour.

www.atptour.com

Side note, if you dig deeper he tends to lose comparatively little in return games won vs better opposition so some of the numbers being that low is probably him coasting on serve

Those numbers are for a different day though, gotta sleep. Tennisabstract should have them, I believe

Thank you. I was thinking about BPs on 2nd serve return specifically Will look on TA myself, maybe they have a filter for this.

Good night

 

[Chanwan]

Thank you. I was thinking about BPs on 2nd serve return specifically Will look on TA myself, maybe they have a filter for this.

Good night

Ah yes, def out of top-400 there

 

[Fabresque]

Djokovic is definitely telepathic because he lives rent free in 75% of this forum’s heads

 

[StannisTheMannis]

Be the GOAT he is unrivaled.

 

[NoleFam]

I'll be honest, It's mostly objective assessment of watching both of them vs notable big servers.

Murray almost always does well against big servers and Djokovic has had a few struggles with the same players. Not that either of them are bad against big servers but Andy seems to read it better and get to it more often. Also I still think the fact that Murray (Up until 2022) was undefeated vs Isner/Karlovic is a pretty ridiculous statistic and Murray did better vs Roddick

Murray is 9-4 against Raonic though while Djokovic is 12-0. Matchups and all of that stuff, but on the return Djokovic and Murray are neck and neck. Agassi is not in their league in 1st serve returning (too short and less athletic) but he is a beast in 2nd serve returning.

It depends on who the server is. I did a return stats composition a few months ago on Isner, Raonic, Karlovic and Roddick (they have the 4 greatest serving stats according to ATP) on faster surfaces for Murray, Federer and Djokovic. Overall, Djokovic came out on top but Federer had better return stats against Roddick and slightly better against Karlovic.

Djokovic return points won versus Isner -- 163/424 -- 38.4%
Federer " " " versus Isner -- 160/478 -- 33.5%
Murray " " versus Isner -- 163/492 -- 33.1%

Murray return points won versus Karlovic -- 178/533 -- 33.4%
Federer " " " versus Karlovic -- 185/693 -- 26.7%
Djokovic " " " versus Karlovic -- 45/182 -- 24.7%

Djokovic return points won versus Raonic -- 53/134 -- 39.6%
Murray " " " " versus Raonic -- 226/649 -- 34.8%
Federer " " " " versus Raonic -- 268/862 -- 31.1%

Federer return points won versus Roddick -- 482/1320 -- 36.5%
Murray " " " " versus Roddick -- 242/665 -- 36.4%
Djokovic " " " " versus Roddick -- 158/467 -- 33.8%

Overall
1. Djokovic 419/1207 -- 34.7%
2. Murray 809/2339 -- 34.5%
3. Federer 1095/3353 -- 32.6%

 

[abmk]

Yes and not quite yes. Overall, you are of course correct. But we are talking Federer. Look how he turned his return around vs Rafa after 13 years of getting killed by slicing/chipping it back in play.

He could and should have hit over his BH/run around it more.

I think he was too focused on getting the ball back in play rather than applying pressure

@NatF @abmk thoughts?

yeah, 2nd serve return definitely went down from 2008 or so for fed.

 

[I Am Finnish]

Lay an egg

 

[Waves]

Everything on the court, really other than servebot, and his overhead/net game. Also really love his graciousness at the net when loses a match.

 

[Bambooman]

Tennis and generating living space within skulls. Has anyone mentioned that yet?

 

[RedClayFan]

Having non-existent gluten allergies diagnosed by being near bread and incorporating the findings into crock-of-sh1t explanations for radical improvements in physical performance.

MichaelJacksonPopcorn.gif.

Not sure why my post saying the same got deleted. I’d still respect Novak even if he got busted one day as it’s probably similar to Armstrong where everyone else is doing it too. Some better than others.

 

[joekapa]

"That backhand down the line, must be the shot of the decade ! It's an amazing, technically proficient, piercing blow !"

 

[Tennfan123]

Endanger the lives of others by not disclosing his covid status.
I can't remember any other high profile athletes who got caught out for that.
Unless he was lying he had covid in the first place, of course.

 

[ffw2]

Endanger the lives of others by not disclosing his covid status.
I can't remember any other high profile athletes who got caught out for that.
Unless he was lying he had covid in the first place, of course.

It's weird how tennis has been forced into this position of having to sell villains.

 

[Tennfan123]

It's weird how tennis has been forced into this position of having to sell villains.

And unsettling. Tennis has no choice but to push Djokovic now. So, his past 'mishaps' are conveniently airbrushed from the conversation.

 

[a10best]

I feel there's not enough appreciation of the undisputed GOAT, the Earth mightiest warrior on these boards, so here's an appreciation thread.
Add only what you feel he does better than any other tennis player or human, past or present

• Return of serve. Granted, Agassi, Connors and peak Murray are up there, but I'd give Novak the edge
• Mental strength on a tennis court. Rafa & Pete amongst others come close, but have to give the nod to Novak here by now
• Ability to hit a doublehanded backhand while sliding. No ones comes close.
• Stand up for his beliefs. Not even Gandhi comes close
• Bravest man who ever lived - Muhammad Ali, Firemen, and people at war are braver
• Self-healing - Funny
• Give long hugs (thanks to Pepe Imaz)
• Telepathy & telekinesis*
• Purify water through thoughts and emotions**
• Considered but omitted: Is Novak actually better than Nadal on clay? NOT Considered at all in conscious world or galaxies far beyond

Lockdown mode needs to be added.

What has Djokovic admitted he does in tiebreakers or when facing set or matchpoint?
- Has he said:
1. he doesn't aim for the lines and hits with more clearance
2. he hits hard but only high percentage shots

Share the secret.

I cannot recall any high risk shots under pressure except when Fed was serving MP in 2019 W and Novak admitted he got lucky on that shot.
Aside from that shot he remains very aggressive and fearless under pressure whenever hitting the ball or shouting at innocent ball kids.

 

[ChaelAZ]

ASTERISKS!

 

[BrooklynNY]

Real answers...

Hit his crosscourt angle forehand. I feel he can hit slow spinners, huge flat, all types of varities of forehands cross court. But his off pace, angle, spin shot cross is underrated and goes unnoticed a lot. He does that better than anyone

 

[Clay lover]

Real answers...

Hit his crosscourt angle forehand. I feel he can hit slow spinners, huge flat, all types of varities of forehands cross court. But his off pace, angle, spin shot cross is underrated and goes unnoticed a lot. He does that better than anyone

Yeah I agree. The versatility of his forehand is such an important and unnoticed aspect of his game - I'd add that he handles all types of ball heights well with low underspin balls being a relative weakness