Throwing a Tennis Racket - As Practice for the Serve?

[onehandbh]

Not intending to insult or anything, but can you see how you don't have the ISR that drives proper pronation for this throw? Most folks do throw a football like this but and that is likely a lot of what separates them from a solid passer. Your right hand should be pronating out to the right at the end.

Just looked at it frame by frame.
I think I pronated out some but it is impossible to tell in the video b/c there was a tree branch or something blocking the view and b/c it was at night there is too much motion blur.

I used to be able to throw quite a bit further (not LeeD further). I was, as you wrote, rolling the ball the first two throws to get a spiral, and then on the last one, I tried to throw it more like I serve.

 

[LeeD]

Tossing a tennis racket, you cannot pronate because that would open up the face causing more air drag, slower racket speed, and less distance. Throwing a racket is a slice serve, or a chop serve actually.
I was 16 year's old when I threw several balls around 75 yards, but did throw some 165 feet as a 14 year old. Gotta consider, as a 16 year old, I was playing varsity football in the fall, and spring varsity basketball, so was probably in pretty good shape.
This 26 yard throw I did in the spring was done at 67 year's old, 4 broken collarbones, a couple separates of the shoulder, bad rotator cuffs, and hadn't run one step since 2007. Think it might affect distance of football throws? It's at least 16 feet farther than anyone else who tried throwing my football, all under 55 year's of age, most in the mid 40's, and all 4.0 level tennis player's.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I'd add that my left arm throw is terrible - I can barely make it to the service line (no crow hop of course).. And my left hand serve is pretty much as slow as you can hit. (likely 40 mph - not sure if slower is possible haha). So at least for me correlation works perfectly well. I have had three coaches try this now.. all are former college players (which is typical).

One young guy with the 120mph (documented serve) clears the fence easily - sailing well past it. The older 35 something coach can clear the fence but not by a lot. Has some shoulder trouble - but can still bring 100+ mph serve. one of the assistant coach guys - cleared it by a lot - but used a crow hop. but his serve is like 105 or so he claims..

I have a female friend - she is a strong female player a 4.0 with for a woman has a very big serve (at her level). It's been clocked at 85. She cannot clear the fence - and cannot hit the fence - but can clear the baseline.. This believe it or not is better then some women..

I take your point of a high correlation between throwing distance and serve speed.

Yet, we also have the case of SA who threw very poorly left-handed, I am guessing with "throw like a girl" motion, but still developed a 5.5 level serve. How is that possible?

Understanding that might help the millions of women and others with poor throwing distance also achieve a high level serve.

 

[LeeD]

Tons of practice?
There's this family of guys who used to frequent our courts, the Orange club. Freedom and Josh were 5.5's a few year's ago, Triel 4.5. All tall, athletic, and learned to serve lefty from scratch, when they started tennis. Dad pushed it, but he couldn't do it. Freedom's lefty serve is now solid 4.5, while Josh's a bit faster, but less consistent. They just practiced lefty serves every week for the past 25 years.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Tossing a tennis racket, you cannot pronate because that would open up the face causing more air drag, slower racket speed, and less distance. Throwing a racket is a slice serve, or a chop serve actually.
I was 16 year's old when I threw several balls around 75 yards, but did throw some 165 feet as a 14 year old. Gotta consider, as a 16 year old, I was playing varsity football in the fall, and spring varsity basketball, so was probably in pretty good shape.
This 26 yard throw I did in the spring was done at 67 year's old, 4 broken collarbones, a couple separates of the shoulder, bad rotator cuffs, and hadn't run one step since 2007. Think it might affect distance of football throws? It's at least 16 feet farther than anyone else who tried throwing my football, all under 55 year's of age, most in the mid 40's, and all 4.0 level tennis player's.

If you are throwing the racket primarily for distance, then adding pronation prior to release would probably result in less speed and distance (or height) as you suggest. However, it is very possible to add pronation to racket throws as I talk about in post #33. I think that somewhere in this thread there is a video of a pronated racket throw.

 

[LeeD]

Well, you can grip the racket handle with an eastern backhand grip, pronate to slice serve position above your head, and release the handle.
But does that simulate your service swing speed?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I take your point of a high correlation between throwing distance and serve speed.

Yet, we also have the case of SA who threw very poorly left-handed, I am guessing with "throw like a girl" motion, but still developed a 5.5 level serve. How is that possible?

Understanding that might help the millions of women and others with poor throwing distance also achieve a high level serve.

"Throwing like a girl" might be one characterization of it. (My apologies to those who find that phrase demeaning). Have not seen videos of it, but it certainly feels that way. There is a hitch or flaw in mechanics I've not been able to get past. Or, more likely, it is a flaw in my shoulder anatomy that affects a ball throw more than it affects my overhand throwing actions in tennis and badminton. That would still suggest a difference in the throwing mechanics for a ball vs a racket.

Note: While I was able to get my serve up to a 5.0/5.5 level (in the late 90s), sadly, the rest of my game was a low 5.0, at best. The serve has been my best stroke pretty much since the late 70s.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Or, more likely, it is a flaw in my shoulder anatomy that affects a ball throw more than it affects my overhand throwing actions in tennis and badminton. That would still suggest a difference in the throwing mechanics for a ball vs a racket.

How much did developing the lefty serve to a 5.0+ level improve your poor lefty throwing skills? i.e. ball throwing distance.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

How much did developing the lefty serve to a 5.0+ level improve your poor lefty throwing skills? i.e. ball throwing distance.

My development of a lefty serve did not seem to improve my lefty ball throwing skills at all. However, it probably made it much easier for me to develop very good lefty racket throwing skills. I developed those skill quite easily.

Even tho' I naturally throw right-handed (and played baseball as a righty), I decided to pick up tennis as a lefty. This was probably cuz my lefty skills in table tennis were superior to my righty skills. I did not find the tennis serve, as a lefty, all that difficult even tho' I preferred to throw righty. Same thing happened in badminton some years later. I did not find it difficult to master overhead strokes with my left arm. However, it took a fair amount of dedicated practice to be able to hit overhead shots comfortably with my right arm (for both badminton & tennis)

 

[GuyClinch]

"Throwing like a girl" might be one characterization of it. (My apologies to those who find that phrase demeaning). Have not seen videos of it, but it certainly feels that way. There is a hitch or flaw in mechanics I've not been able to get past. Or, more likely, it is a flaw in my shoulder anatomy that affects a ball throw more than it affects my overhand throwing actions in tennis and badminton. That would still suggest a difference in the throwing mechanics for a ball vs a racket.

Eh. I bet if you really went out there and tried throwing with your left it would feel normal after a little while - and you probably get much better distance on your throw right now then most people here who throw with their off hand. if you look at a say Fed swinging without the racquet (computer altered) its very much like a throw.. it's not 100% indentical but if you put a ball in there instead of a racquet - almost no one would be able to tell he wasn't throwing a ball, IMHO.

Simon (From Top Tennis training) serves WELL from both sides and absolutely says that a good throw is key to a good serve. Seeing that I have seen his serve and throw on video - I find that evidence plenty convincing. I been trying to improve my throwing and I am getting some more distance - and I think my serve is improving. So chalk two points up for simon - and zero points for the people that think he is wrong.. But hey that's just for me..

If imaging that a serve is some complicated technical thing works for you - great.. (and I am not saying that you personally fall into that category - I just mean in general). I can speak for what works for me.. Actually now I am looking around for someone who wants to throw a football around. I have some hitting partners - and this would have worked great in NYC. But here in NorCal - well I can almost always get a court.. So don't need to throw a football around. Maybe I should join a flag football league or something..

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Eh. I bet if you really went out there and tried throwing with your left it would feel normal after a little while...

As i mentioned previously, I have been trying to develop my lefty ball skills for more than 50 years now. I have already put a fair amount of work into it.

I have gotten quite a few lefty tennis students over the years. Some of those have thrown right-handed, some of them threw left-handed. I don't believe that those who both throw and serve lefty outnumber those who use the opposite arms by very much. I would love to be able to demonstrate a lefty ball throw for students who throw left-handed. But sadly, my attempts are much less than ideal. I am much better a demonstrating a lefty racket throw.

For reasons unknown, I naturally bat right-handed but have always felt awkward trying to bat left-handed. Found the same thing with tennis. I can hit a 2-handed shot on my right side much better than I can on my left. Curious, since many consider a lefty (classic) FH and a righty's 2-handed BH to be nearly the same stroke.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I don't doubt that there is a significant difference between the two. I just believe that people that can throw hard will be able to serve hard. There are too many similarities in the kinetic chain.

As someone with shoulder issues to compensate for I can certainly say that my throwing distance, serve speed, overhead volleyball serve, all suffered to the same degree after surgery. Before surgery they were equally strong.

And as a neurologist I assess handedness routinely as it's important in assessing coordination between sides. True ambidextrous folks are very rare. The overwhelming majority of people are strongly right handed. The smaller population of lefties are typically strongly left handed but a few of them have developed ambidextrous behaviors. Usually writing right handed and throwing left handed. I can only recall a few people that mixed up their handedness for sports.

As a lefty, the subject of handedness comes up quite often. Have not come across very many true ambidextrous folk either (and I am certainly not one). However, it has been my experience that more lefties than not, perform some (a few) tasks better with their right arm/hand. I have not come across very many lefties who are strongly, or almost exclusively, lefty. I believe that this comes, in part, from having to deal with a right-handed world.

Many are forced to eat and write with their non-dominant right hand. This practice has been quite prevalent in China, India and other parts of Asia. It is true to a lesser extent in the US. While babies often grab object with either hand, parents, sometimes on purpose and sometimes unknowingly, will often had things only to their baby's right hand. This apparently suppresses some left-handed behavior.

Other lefties learn to use scissors as a right-hander, because many scissors are not designed to cut when used in the left hand. And then there are a lack of left-handed desks in schools. Many other obstacles as well. Many lefties learn to adapt and can often develop right-handed behaviors.

While I eat, write and play racket sports as a lefty, there are a some skills that I can do better as a righty. There are very few skills that I can do equally well on both sides. However, I have taught myself to use my non-preferred arm/hand for many skills. Some, like volleyball, table tennis and eating, came easily. Others, like tennis and badminton overhead strokes took, a lot more work. Some, like ball-throwing and writing, appear to be almost hopeless.

 

[5263]

Just looked at it frame by frame.
I think I pronated out some but it is impossible to tell in the video b/c there was a tree branch or something blocking the view and b/c it was at night there is too much motion blur.

I used to be able to throw quite a bit further (not LeeD further). I was, as you wrote, rolling the ball the first two throws to get a spiral, and then on the last one, I tried to throw it more like I serve.

I don't know if I watched all the throws, but the shoulder and hand travel were not quite right on what I watched. Not saying anything bad and I threw like that for years before learning from a good QB on how it's done.

 

[GuyClinch]

As i mentioned previously, I have been trying to develop my lefty ball skills for more than 50 years now. I have already put a fair amount of work into it.

Your an odd one then.. I knew a kid in HS who was ambidex - could pitch with either hand - a little bit better with the left - but low 80s. Overall most guys who are ambidextrous can do well with either hand - hence the phrase..

 

[GuyClinch]

Simon suggests you chuck some balls to improve your serve - and he is truly ambidextrous.. So I am sticking with his recommendation.

 

[shindemac]

Eh. I bet if you really went out there and tried throwing with your left it would feel normal after a little while - and you probably get much better distance on your throw right now then most people here who throw with their off hand. if you look at a say Fed swinging without the racquet (computer altered) its very much like a throw.. it's not 100% indentical but if you put a ball in there instead of a racquet - almost no one would be able to tell he wasn't throwing a ball, IMHO.

Simon (From Top Tennis training) serves WELL from both sides and absolutely says that a good throw is key to a good serve. Seeing that I have seen his serve and throw on video - I find that evidence plenty convincing. I been trying to improve my throwing and I am getting some more distance - and I think my serve is improving. So chalk two points up for simon - and zero points for the people that think he is wrong.. But hey that's just for me..

If imaging that a serve is some complicated technical thing works for you - great.. (and I am not saying that you personally fall into that category - I just mean in general). I can speak for what works for me.. Actually now I am looking around for someone who wants to throw a football around. I have some hitting partners - and this would have worked great in NYC. But here in NorCal - well I can almost always get a court.. So don't need to throw a football around. Maybe I should join a flag football league or something..

I'm gonna hafta agree with you. As my serve has improved, my throwing has improved commensurately. My distance is farther (or further for the other half of the world), and my mph is increased (as measured by radar).

I use pretty much the same motion for both. I like to throw until I can get a good groove going. Then, bam. My serve is usually much faster.

 

[shindemac]

I take your point of a high correlation between throwing distance and serve speed.

Yet, we also have the case of SA who threw very poorly left-handed, I am guessing with "throw like a girl" motion, but still developed a 5.5 level serve. How is that possible?

Understanding that might help the millions of women and others with poor throwing distance also achieve a high level serve.

They are the same motion to me. It's like the guy said, his layup made it impossible for him to ball toss.

The throwing motion is a great way to work on a lot of the same mechanics. But if you are throwing wrong, pushing it, shot-putting it, throwing it like a pansie, then it won't help your tennis serve.

 

[shindemac]

@shindemac (note my later edits below)



That is not the issue. I had been playing tennis at a high intermediate level before I took up badminton. Took up tennis at 20-21 and badminton at 27 years old. Have been throwing balls since I was a rugrat. Tried throwing balls as a lefty but was never good at it.



I am a huge fan of throwing as well. It is my contention, however, that racket-throwing is superior to ball-throwing for developing tennis (and badminton) overhand skills.

Note that baseball pitchers can usually develop an incredible amount of ESR (and stretching of the internal rotators) from their pitching motion. As a consequence, they can generate a huge amount of ISR before they release the ball. Not all ball throwers do this. Pitchers do not typically employ very much shoulder tilt or as much shoulder-over-shoulder action and do not coil up as much as top tennis servers. Their leg drive is more in a horizontal direction rather than a vertical direction (as it is for a tennis serve).

Javelin throwers, I believe, also load up with a good ESR and pectoral stretch. They use shoulder tilt and a fair amount of coiling/uncoiling of the body for their throws. A javelin throw, while having many common elements with ball throws, is still a different throwing motion from throwing a baseball and serving a tennis ball.

There isn't a need to micro manage the diff'rent throwing types. A thrower is good at throwing many things. If you think he was throwing javeleins in high school, well, that doesn't make sense. Bottom line, a thrower can throw; It doesn't matter what you put in his hand.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

The answer… it is just like throwing a ball. Even if we have never played tennis, I bet you are a master at throwing a ball.

lol, I've had plenty of students that struggled with throwing a ball, both youth and adults.
While I don't think throwing a racquet is exactly the same as the serve motion, it does teach gross motor skills (eg. coordinating body and arm).
I prefer using a football instead - at least the pronation to get a spiral is similar.

 

[onehandbh]

I don't know if I watched all the throws, but the shoulder and hand travel were not quite right on what I watched. Not saying anything bad and I threw like that for years before learning from a good QB on how it's done.

There was only one throw in the video. It was my 3rd throw (out of 3).

btw, can you ask your son (the one with a fast serve) to record a video of his serve? Would love to see the efficiency of his technique. I think it would be a good example for the people on TW.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

There isn't a need to micro manage the diff'rent throwing types. A thrower is good at throwing many things. If you think he was throwing javeleins in high school, well, that doesn't make sense. Bottom line, a thrower can throw; It doesn't matter what you put in his hand.

Micro managing???

Not following you at all about the javelin thrower either. I didn't say or imply anything about high school.

Not completely sure about this point of this post. An accomplished thrower in another sport/event might very well be able to learn a tennis serve more easily than others. However, adjustments still needs to be made. They need to modify their mechanics so that it is applicable to tennis serves -- especially when we consider a variety of serves: flat serves, slice serves, topspin serves, etc.

And there are still is no guarantee here. A sidearm baseball pitcher may need to make some significant adjustments. A submarine pitcher might need to make even an even greater adjustment. Ditto for a cricket "bowler". Ant then there are the shot putters...

Some athletes, like me, will throw with one arm but play tennis with the other arm. I am hardly unique in this respect. I've come across quite a few individuals that exhibit this "anomaly".

(DISCLAIMER: This is not really meant to be an analogy). In a related vein, we have seen players In baseball like Cleon Jones and Rickey Hendersen who batted right-handed but threw left-handed. There have been been countless others who did the opposite -- they batted solely left-handed but threw solely right-handed. No telling if these players would use their ball throwing arm for tennis serves or not.

And let's not just focus on elite athletes. Would the average Joe benefit from racket throwing drills? Methinks, yes.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Some athletes, like me, will throw with one arm but play tennis with the other arm. I am hardly unique in this respect. I've come across quite a few individuals that exhibit this "anomaly". In a related vein, we have seen players In baseball like Cleon Jones and Rickey Hendersen who batted right-handed but threw left-handed. There have been been countless others who did the opposite -- they batted solely left-handed but threw solely right-handed. No telling if these players would use their ball throwing arm for tennis serves or not.

And let's not just focus on elite athletes. Would the average Joe benefit from racket throwing drills? Methinks, yes.

Batting is a two handed sport so I don't see the analogy. While 90% of the world is right hand dominant, 60% bat right, 60% play hockey left handed and 80% golf righty. As soon as there are two hands on the implement, handedness no longer is the sole determining factor of how you use the implement. However there are very few right hand dominant people that play tennis with their left hand. Nadal interestingly is one of them but he grew up with Monica Seles two hand groundies and thus developed fluidity with his left hand from that. That is an unusua instance and i suspect Nadal was always somewhat ambidextrous and not truly right hand dominant.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Batting is a two handed sport so I don't see the analogy. While 90% of the world is right hand dominant, 60% bat right, 60% play hockey left handed and 80% golf righty. As soon as there are two hands on the implement, handedness no longer is the sole determining factor of how you use the implement. However there are very few right hand dominant people that play tennis with their left hand. Nadal interestingly is one of them but he grew up with Monica Seles two hand groundies and thus developed fluidity with his left hand from that. That is an unusua instance and i suspect Nadal was always somewhat ambidextrous and not truly right hand dominant.

Perhaps I did not word it optimally but it was not meant to be an exact or direct analogy. It is more an indication that it is not uncommon to see athletes act like a righty for one skill and perform as lefty for another skill. Baseball, by its nature, does appear to reward left-handedness. This may be why we see nearly 40% of batters using what is normally considered a left-handed batting position. Don't know enough about hockey or golf to speak with any authority about them. Aren't hockey players encouraged to learn to shoot from either side?

Do we really know how many lefty tennis players throw right-handed? Thinking back on it, more than half of the lefties that I've coached used their right arm as their preferred ball-throwing arm. The subject has come up with lefty tennis players and lefty badminton players I've met. Of the ones I've asked, it appears that close to 40% of them throw right-handed as I do.

Note that a fairly high portion of those 90% right-hand dominant people are predominantly (or almost exclusively) right-handed. The same does not seem to be true for those who we classify as left-handed. While there are a some who are strongly lefty, this represents a fairly small % of all lefties from what I've observed. Most lefties tend to be mixed-handed but not necessarily truly ambidextrous. So, in one sense, you are correct that right-hand dominant people do not often play tennis with the left arm. However, this is not to say that there is not a significant number of right-handed ball throwers who take up racquet sports, like tennis and badminton, as a lefty. I would probably not classify most of these people as right-hand dominant. More likely they would be considered either left-handers or mixed-handers.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Handedness webpage.
http://www.rightleftrightwrong.com/issues_sport.html

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Handedness webpage.
http://www.rightleftrightwrong.com/issues_sport.html

Thanks for this link. Came across a couple of others that pretty much backs up my own observations. True ambidexterity is rare. Less than 1% of the population. True left-handedness (nearly all tasks performed exclusively with the left arm/hand) is also very rare. Left-handers are actually nearly always mixed-handed. There appears to be a continuum of lefty-ness or mixed-ness. Some experts suggest that there are only 2 types of handedness: right handed and non-right handed.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/handedness.aspx
http://mentalfloss.com/article/30667/11-facts-about-ambidextrous

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Your an odd one then.. I knew a kid in HS who was ambidex - could pitch with either hand - a little bit better with the left - but low 80s. Overall most guys who are ambidextrous can do well with either hand - hence the phrase..

My condition, mixed-handedness is not a rare as you think. However, true ambidexterity is. Refer to the links in the 2 preceding posts. Almost all ¨lefties¨ perform some skills right-handed but are not really ambidextrous. It is not all that uncommon for lefty tennis players to throw better with their right arm. Less common for a lefty ball thrower to pick up tennis as a right-hander; but I have come across at least 3 (2 of them were students of mine).

... Simon suggests you chuck some balls to improve your serve - and he is truly ambidextrous.. So I am sticking with his recommendation.

Not sure I see the rationale here. Less than 1% of the population exhibits the level of ambidexterity that he does. Why does that make his opinion more valuable? Note that I also highly recommend ball throwing for tennis. However, is not useful for everyone. Racket throwing appears to work a bit better for most of those individuals. Do we know if Simon is adverse to the idea of racket throwing?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Simon (From Top Tennis training) serves WELL from both sides and absolutely says that a good throw is key to a good serve. Seeing that I have seen his serve and throw on video - I find that evidence plenty convincing. I been trying to improve my throwing and I am getting some more distance - and I think my serve is improving. So chalk two points up for simon - and zero points for the people that think he is wrong.. But hey that's just for me..

There isn't a need to micro manage the diff'rent throwing types. A thrower is good at throwing many things. If you think he was throwing javeleins in high school, well, that doesn't make sense. Bottom line, a thrower can throw; It doesn't matter what you put in his hand.

Are your guys under the illusion that I do not see ball throwing as a useful tool for serve/overhead tennis training? Nothing could be further from the truth. It's just that it is not as effective for some as it is for others. I have found racquet throwing to be useful for a greater % of players. It is not that the tennis serve is necessarily more complex than ball throwing. But it does feel different. We can't always easily see the differences. The exact timing and contribution percentage of various elements of the throwing action are a bit different.

Note that I was introduced to the idea of ball throwing for tennis serves/overhead some 30 years ago. I have been using it with my own students for nearly 20 years now. We still perform more ball throwing than racket throwing drills. Ball throwing is more practical. Racket throwing is just not practical to perform as often -- don't always have the throwing rackets with me and don´t always have access to an area where we can perform racket throwing.

I always perform ball throwing drills with students before we ever get around to racket throwing. It is at that time where I sometimes discover that a student does not throw balls with their racket arm. The racquet throwing usually happens in a subsequent class. After that session, the ball throwing drills that come later are sometimes more effective for some students.

Do you guys not see the value in racket throwing drills?

 

[shindemac]

Are your guys under the illusion that I do not see ball throwing as a useful tool for serve/overhead tennis training? Nothing could be further from the truth. It's just that it is not as effective for some as it is for others. I have found racquet throwing to be useful for a greater % of players. It is not that the tennis serve is necessarily more complex than ball throwing. But it does feel different. We can't always easily see the differences. The exact timing and contribution percentage of various elements of the throwing action are a bit different.

Note that I was introduced to the idea of ball throwing for tennis serves/overhead some 30 years ago. I have been using it with my own students for nearly 20 years now. We still perform more ball throwing than racket throwing drills. Ball throwing is more practical. Racket throwing is just not practical to perform as often -- don't always have the throwing rackets with me and don´t always have access to an area where we can perform racket throwing.

I always perform ball throwing drills with students before we ever get around racket throwing. It is at that time where I sometimes discover that a student does not throw balls with their racket arm. The racquet throwing usually happens in a subsequent class. After that session, the ball throwing drills that come later are sometimes more effective for some students.

Do you guys not see the value in racket throwing drills?

First chill. Take it easy.

Second, I agree with your content and do not have any disputes with it.

Great post, and keep up the good work.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Do we really know how many lefty tennis players throw right-handed? Thinking back on it, more than half of the lefties that I've coached used their right arm as their preferred ball-throwing arm. The subject has come up with lefty tennis players and lefty badminton players I've met. Of the ones I've asked, it appears that close to 40% of them throw right-handed as I do.

I have never asked but would be surprised if the number was that high. Given that the two motions are very similar, I would expect the vast majority (90%+) to use the
same arm for both tasks. At rec level baseball/softball virtually everyone I see uses the same arm for batting/throwing. Note:Higher level baseball players will sometimes learn to bat with opposite arm to gain an advantage.

OTOH, if the number is that high, it means you have players like yourself, who have achieved a 5.0+ serve, but unable to throw well. It suggests that rec players that cannot throw well might achieve a much better serve if we understand what is going on, i.e. discover the racket throw is different than a ball throw.

So far in this thread, I don't believe anyone has offered an explanation to your type of case, other than to dismiss it and say it is just mental. But there likely is something else going on.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I have never asked but would be surprised if the number was that high. Given that the two motions are very similar, I would expect the vast majority (90%+) to use the
same arm for both tasks. At rec level baseball/softball virtually everyone I see uses the same arm for batting/throwing. Note:Higher level baseball players will sometimes learn to bat with opposite arm to gain an advantage.

OTOH, if the number is that high, it means you have players like yourself, who have achieved a 5.0+ serve, but unable to throw well. It suggests that rec players that cannot throw well might achieve a much better serve if we understand what is going on, i.e. discover the racket throw is different than a ball throw.

So far in this thread, I don't believe anyone has offered an explanation to your type of case, other than to dismiss it and say it is just mental. But there likely is something else going on.

Start talking to lefty tennis players. You may be surprised at what they tell you. Almost all will be mixed-handed and perform some tasks right handed. With a large enough sample, I'd be surprised if you didn't find that at least 1 in 3 of these lefty tennis players didn't happen to throw right-handed. Check out the link above that discuss handedness.

You might be correct about rec baseball players. Lefty-ness in baseball seems to be more prevalent at the pro level. When I played baseball, as a youth, I also batted right-handed. I had tried some left handed batting. It was somewhat better than my left-handed throwing but it still not feel as natural as my right-handed batting. Not sure what to make of all this.

Now, while tennis serving and overhand ball throwing look very similar, they actually feel different to me. I would think that the differences are primarily due to the extra length and much higher MOI (moment of inertia). A football has a comparable mass (slightly heavier?) to a tennis racket but would have a much lower MOI (or swingweight). It does not have the extra length associated with a tennis racket. The racket essentially adds another 2 feet of length to your arm. It changes the last links (in the KC) -- forearm, wrist, hand -- considerably. This added length and high MOI (SW) would have to have an effect on feel and on stroke or throwing mechanics.

Perhaps, if my left arm was 2 feet longer, I would throw much better with that arm.

In a previous post in this thread, I had mentioned some differences between a ball throwing motion and a tennis serve. Consider how a baseball pitcher achieves their high degree of ESR prior to the forward motion of the throwing hand (relative to the body) ...

Lincecum is exhibiting a very significant amount of ESR in this image. He achieves this ESR by uncoiling the torso and by leaving the ball and his right hand behind him as his body takes a very long stride forward. Note the pitching rubber at the right hand edge of the image -- that is where he started his pitching motion (prior to the stride). Of course not all ball throwing motions require a forward stride of this magnitude -- but it is doubtful that they will get this much ESR either.

Nevertheless, it is a forward motion of the body, along with an uncoil, that facilitates an ESR with other ball throws. On a very short pass, a football QB dos not need very much coil/uncoil or very much of a forward stride. However, on long passes, we do see more coil/uncoil and a forward stride.

For good tennis serves, we will actually see more body/torso coiling that we typically see for ball throwing. However, we do not see much of a forward stride to facilitate ESR. A long stride is not allowed for a serve. For a tennis serve we see ESR facilitated by upward/vertical movement much more so than a forward/horizontal motion. Upward leg drive is a large part of this. The length of the racket, with a mass further away from the hand also helps to achieve this ESR and a good racket head drop. This is one of several reasons that a serve or racket throw feels different from a ball throw.

​

Much easier to achieve a racket head drop such as this with an upward racket throw than with a ball throw. The racket head moving thru a loop behind the body produces different forces on the arm, shoulder and body than a ball throw does. It produces a very different feel as well. The weight of the racket head and the higher swingweight (of the racket vs the ball) will facilitate ESR. Gravity acting on the racket head as it drops produces a different feel and a different requirement for the tennis serve.

(Will talk about other differences in throwing mechanics in my next post).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

How about some Einstein thought experiments?

Consider the movement of the tip of the racket (post #39) or the racket head relative the motion of the hand that hold the racket. The racket head path is described by a different trajectory than the path of the hand. In one very real sense, the path and actions of the hand as well as the actions of the wrist, forearm, shoulder, etc are effected by the needed path and actions of the racket face. It seems doubtful that a smaller/shorter ball would have quite the same effects on the hand, wrist, arm and shoulder.

Also consider a light racket with a low swingweight (< 300) compared to a heavier racket with a high SW (> 345). Making such a switch from a low SW racket to a high SW racket would have a significant effect on both the timing and mechanics of the stroke. A high SW recruits the muscles and joints a bit differently than a low SW racket. The percentages of slower twitch fibers to faster twitch fibers migh even be different. We need to develop a different muscle memory to switch between 2 such racket.

The effective SW for ball (thrown) would effectively be considerably less than 300. Perhaps seven less than 100. Timing, muscle recruitment and swing mechanics would most likely quite different.

In my previous post, I had considered the racket head drop and the way that ESR is realized for a tennis serve vs a pitched ball. How do we simulate that racket head drop with throwing a ball? How about other movement of the racket during a service motion? Getting the racket to a power position (or a trophy position) can be mimicked with a ball but it just won't quite be the same.

Now let's consider the movement of the racket head from the Big L position (arm nearly vertical but racket closer to horizontal) up to the the contact point. Just moving the racket head thru that arc will produce forces and requirements on the hand, wrist, forearm, shoulder, etc that will be somewhat different from what throwing a ball will do. Even tho' they may look very similar. Close you eyes. Can you feel the difference? I think you can.

Or how about getting the racket head from the drop up to the Big L?
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/nalbandian_l.php


Let us now consider the actions shown below for a kick serve. We will not all achieve these action with racket throwing but I believe that we can come closer to it with a racket throw vs a ball throw.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2q2qo36.jpg

All these various differences can make a serve or racket throw feel quite a bit different from a ball throw even tho' they may look very similar. These reasons (and others) may be why some of us can swing a tennis racket for a serve with the left arm but are able to throw a ball better with the right arm.

 

[5263]

There was only one throw in the video. It was my 3rd throw (out of 3).

btw, can you ask your son (the one with a fast serve) to record a video of his serve? Would love to see the efficiency of his technique. I think it would be a good example for the people on TW.

I have some vid of both of them serving. The older one was easier to work with, lol and I think that accounts for his much bigger serve. The younger one still serves well, but Imo is still held back a bit by not being willing to work to improve it more. He is not as good at having repeatable execution. Comparisons between the 2 would be interesting as well to show how the differences between a 130 sever looks beside a 140+ server when they are 6' 1" brothers separated by 10 yrs and work attention to detail. I started to say work ethic, but both train hard. The older one just was more interested in getting things just right and realizing how that helps. Maybe I can set up something to post this summer.

 

[onehandbh]

I have some vid of both of them serving. The older one was easier to work with, lol and I think that accounts for his much bigger serve. The younger one still serves well, but Imo is still held back a bit by not being willing to work to improve it more. He is not as good at having repeatable execution. Comparisons between the 2 would be interesting as well to show how the differences between a 130 sever looks beside a 140+ server when they are 6' 1" brothers separated by 10 yrs and work attention to detail. I started to say work ethic, but both train hard. The older one just was more interested in getting things just right and realizing how that helps. Maybe I can set up something to post this summer.

If you need some help, just let me know. You can upload the videos to me via dropbox and I can put the videos together side by side into one video for comparison.

Do you or they have an iphone6 or 6s? If you record during the day you can get good slow motion video at 240fps. Even the current video footage you have would be great as you can see a lot.

 

[onehandbh]

5263, were you the main person teaching them to serve or did another instructor also help?

What things did you focus on?

Them being 6'1" and athletic is a good base to start! (vs 5'5" ,etc.)

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pat Dougherty video on the throw and the serve.

I had seen this video for some time and was still undecided how this might help for the serve.

But I now believe that the ball throw does relate to ISR because of some accidental double exposure images from the Pat Dougherty video above.

For a throw, the upper arm rotates and the elbow has an angle that causes the rotation to produce hand speed. The faint arm is from double exposure milliseconds apart. My interpretation is ISR rotation.

For the serve, the upper arm rotates and the forearm to racket have a changing angle to produce racket head speed. Again the faint arm is the double exposure. My interpretation is ISR rotation as for the typical high level serve.

I had spent 36 years practicing the serve and never once had the slightest thought that my arm swung and at the same time rotated around it long-axis to add to racket head speed. The axial rotation of the arm is a defined joint motion called internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and is the rotation of the upper arm bone (humerus) at the shoulder joint. It seems reasonable to me that many throwers and servers would not have that thought of ISR either.

Many others learn to throw with ISR and might think it is 'natural', and might possibly overestimate how many other people use significant ISR to throw. Most untrained servers learn to serve with little or no ISR and have a Waiter's Tray serve. (That is, ISR as it is used on the high level serve.)

I have not found high speed videos showing how the throw or racket toss might relate to ISR on the serve.

Analysis of two 30 fps serve videos with single frames posts, #1 & 60, of this thread, don't show a close relation of the racket throwing motions and serve as pointed out. High speed videos were not available to shown the OP issue more fully.

Similar high speed videos of racket and ball throws might resolve this issue clearly and quickly. High speed videos might also lead to better understanding and improving of the drills.

 

[GuyClinch]

I had spent 36 years practicing the serve and never once had the slightest thought that my arm swung and at the same time rotated around it long-axis to add to racket head speed. The axial rotation of the arm is a defined joint motion called internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and is the rotation of the upper arm bone (humerus) at the shoulder joint. It seems reasonable to me that many throwers and servers would not have that thought of ISR either.

They don't think about - and still throw and serve great. Do you think about how your jaw and tongue moves when you talk?

Many others learn to throw with ISR and might think it is 'natural', and might possibly overestimate how many other people use significant ISR to throw. Most untrained servers learn to serve with little or no ISR and have a Waiter's Tray serve. (That is, ISR as it is used on the high level serve.)

You are conflating two problems.. The reason why you can use zero ISR to serve is that you do not need ISR to serve. You only use ISR when you serve more like the pros. You can serve with a push motion and zero ISR. This shot is easier to perform because as has been explained your strings and body face the ball..and the path where you want the ball to travel.

When you throw a ball however - men learn to use ISR and body rotation.. ISR is actually hard to resist. if your arm was externally rotated - when it extends out it WANTS to internally rotate.. This is why its considered 'natural' Just like when you rotate to store energy your body feels relaxed when it unwinds..

Some people - never make the connection between throwing and serving and never develop a good serve. Others don't have a good throwing motion to start with..But with good initial instruction it seems to feel pretty natural for athletic men..

This is why as the serve doctor explains he can teach a good throwing athlete to serve very well in a very short time. You don't need to know about ISR.. And even if you do know about ISR its not some game changing revelations..

The tricky part is creating that correct Kinect chain - which does in fact feature ISR - but much like the how you talk - its not something that you have to think about. Your body is moving to fast for you to micromanage each movement..

You can of course improve how clearly you speak - but again you don't study up on the anatomy and biomechanics of speaking you do the enunciation drills.. <g>

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Pat Dougherty video on the throw and the serve.

I had seen this video for some time and was still undecided how this might help for the serve.

But I now believe that the ball throw does relate to ISR because of some accidental double exposure images from the Pat Dougherty video above. For a throw, the upper arm rotates and the elbow has an angle that causes the rotation to produce hand speed...

youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY&t=50

I particularly like the "shake" drill that Pat does with his young student (Sany?) after the 0:50 mark. However, he talks about the fluid motion of the wrist and the flexibility of the elbow but fails to mention the shoulder action that is present in this warmup drill. There is obviously both ESR and ISR incorporated in his shake drill. Rotation of the torso facilitates this ESR/ISR when he demonstrates it.

Another favorite throwing drill that I use utilizes 2 balls -- one in each hand. The ball in the tossing hand is lifted to simulate a normal ball toss. The 2nd ball is then thrown at a steep upward angle so that it passes about 2 feet under the falling lifted (tossed) ball. This drill helps the student to synchronize the actions of the 2 arms.

Some coaches will ask student to hit the 1st (falling) ball with the 2nd (thrown) ball. This is an interesting variation that probably has some merit. However, throwing the 2nd ball 1.5 to 2 feet under the 1st ball would represent a more realistic timing and contact point.

 

[GuyClinch]

^^^Good idea..I should incorporate that shake drill.. The serve doctor gets it.. Notice how he didn't mentioned ISR and the girl can throw it past baseline and serve pretty well for 10. Lots of adults don't serve as well as she does.

 

[5263]

5263, were you the main person teaching them to serve or did another instructor also help?

What things did you focus on?

Them being 6'1" and athletic is a good base to start! (vs 5'5" ,etc.)

Yes, their height is a solid base for sure. Yes, I did 97% + of their serve technique.

My main focus was to start and end with developing the top slice second serve, with the essential keys to make it great....starting with the toss location. Big serving mentality and to use a Simple description I borrowed from Ash is how to "load and unload", launch position with good racket drop and delayed elbow extension. Delayed elbow extension will give that L position, but all L positions don't mean the extension was delayed right. Lots of work on setting the front side in a way that sets the back side. Football throws to develop the shoulder rock over and ISR leading to pronation..

 

[Chas Tennis]

Analysis of ISR on an American football pass.

At 9 sec + 11 frames the ISR with a bent elbow is about to impart forward velocity to the football. Observe when the initial forward acceleration of the ball begins. As this occurs, the elbow is also straightening. Other joint motions also occur.

At the end of the ball acceleration, near ball release, the ISR also causes the hand to rotate down and spin the football. An outward arm & hand turn appears next in the follow through.

This is biomechanically similar to the tennis serve with one exception being that the elbow is bent when strong ISR acceleration occurs for the throw.

 

[Chas Tennis]

FYI

Video of a TW poster throwing a racket to learn the serve.

I have lost track of the post and poster for this video. He is the only server that I have seen in a video using ISR to throw a tennis racket. He said it was hard to time when to let go of the handle.

To do single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

 

[TnsGuru]

I think hitting tennis balls over the fence is a better way to learn to hit up and over with arc. If you can do this drill, hitting over a tennis net will be no problem.

Don't want to do what Kei Nishikori did and lose a racket while serving.

 

[5263]

I think hitting tennis balls over the fence is a better way to learn to hit up and over with arc. If you can do this drill, hitting over a tennis net will be no problem..

But the OP is not about Kick serves is it?

 

[TnsGuru]

But the OP is not about Kick serves is it?

True, but I think this is a more realistic way to practice your serve motion and feel of hitting up on the ball. There really is no feedback or feel of hitting up if you just throw your racket IMO.

 

[kramer woodie]

Well, I have read through this entire thread even though it was quite boring, exposing those who don't know what they are talking about or just
have a need to be argumentative.

So let me say, I first learned the serving motion, by what method, throwing a racquet over the net into the service court. The very first lesson I ever
took was from Wilbur Folsom at Morley Field. Who was Wilbur Folsom? He was known to be Maureen Connolly's (Little Mo) coach as a young girl. Who went on to win 9 Grand Slams at only 5 foot 5 inches tall. Plus he had many more successful students. Wilbur past away about 67-68, a true lost to tennis
and the people who knew him and the students who would miss the opportunity to learn from him.

Ok, my first tennis lesson of my life and here comes this old man with a gimp leg pushing a shopping cart full of old used up wood racquets. He
instructs me, that we do not need balls for todays lesson, just take a racquet from the cart, step to the baseline, pretend to have a ball in my
left hand and throw that pretend ball into the air. Now here comes the interesting part, throw the racquet up and into the service court box with
the right hand. That's right, just throw the racquet across the net into the service court box. I must have bounced 200 racquets into the service
court box in that one hour lesson. His comments were to throw up and follow through. While, that one lesson must have worked because I became
known locally for a big serve. For some reason pronation was automatic, the palm of my hand was facing the side fence in the follow though.

Years later, after not playing tennis for some time, I took a refresher lesson from a retired ex-pro. He said, "you really pronate on the serve, wow",
then he asked if I would help him teach his students. It's sad we don't have old wood racquets for student to throw across the net anymore because
we worry more about chipping the surface on the court more than student learning to serve easily and correctly.

I must confess, serving came naturally to me because I had been a pitcher from the age of 8.

Aloha

 

[5263]

True, but I think this is a more realistic way to practice your serve motion and feel of hitting up on the ball. There really is no feedback or feel of hitting up if you just throw your racket IMO.

the idea is also to throw the racket up like you would with the serve motion...not just throw the racket like a pitcher

 

[Chas Tennis]

the idea is also to throw the racket up like you would with the serve motion...not just throw the racket like a pitcher

A drill for a tennis stroke does not have to simulate the stroke. But rarely is there a rationale offered as to why it works or why instructors or players like it, but they do.

For a drill to simulate a stoke is a different matter. If that is claimed then some part of the drill should simulate part of the service motion. But again usually how drills work, whether they simulate a stroke, is not explained.

To simulate a serve with IRS, as in the video I just posted, the poster did ISR, post #141. He said that he had trouble timing letting go of the racket. That makes sense if a high level serve might have ISR rotation rate of ~ 2500 d. per second you might have a timing challenge directing the racket. Include racket going up?

I don't believe that ISR is part of the typical drill. So the drill does not simulate a high level service motion.

If someone has a model racket throw with ISR video, or can make one, please post it.

From the Pat Dougherty video of a girl throwing a ball up, I believe that that drill simulates ISR on the serve.

 

[5263]

If someone has a model racket throw with ISR video, or can make one, please post it.

I realize this isn't a racket but does this show ISR? Skip to 4:45 if it doesn't start there for you.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I realize this isn't a racket but does this show ISR? Skip to 4:45 if it doesn't start there for you.

At 5:03 there's ISR. I believe that the javilin is accelerated with an angle in the elbow. ?

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Such ridiculous stuff all over this thread.
That girl will throw her racket all day long and then return right back to her pancake serve.
This is not how learning works.